Friday Night Rant

Glen

we have learned and been challenged. Your idea re the LWCO instructions make so much sense. To "save" a fitting - especially on the vitola setup - I use a T rather than 90 facing vertically to the cast manifold assembly. The LWCO then would be installed horizontally. And your pro is not the first to be sidelined with the t tape on the threads ... again thanks - it's always a pleasure reading your posts.

Constantin

... ah, and I thought I would get so much done today...

... it looks like we've run into multiple snags on our path to the fabled Certificate of Occupancy, and heating Nirvana.

First, my GC calls me because the sub who installed the fire-sprinkler system didn't show for the inspection with the Lt. from the FD yesterday. If that wasn't bad enough, the Lt. claims our installer made several mistakes... For example, stating we needed a standpipe for the FD to tie into in case we needed more water to be pumped into our sprinkler system.

If I understood him correctly, he wanted the standpipe tie0in "upstream" of the on-site water tank and booster pump. Given that the tie-in is a 1" pipe going through a ½" RPZ that then empties into a 300 gallon tank that is fed by a valve with a toilet ball, I doubt that any kind of pressure will fill that tank as quickly as the ½hp pressure pump that is attached to the sprinkler system will empty it. But let's not confuse the issues with logic.

Luckily, I was able to locate the sprinkler installer (who was on vacation and thought the meeting was next tuesday), who then started to quote chapter and verse about NFPA-13D, MA requirements, etc. In his opinion, the Lt. was way off base given that sprinklers are not required, that we were going beyond what is required in MA, adhering to NFPA13D, etc. and as such were not bound to the "extra" requirements that structures require which fall under the MA sprinkler code (i.e. 12,000 ft² and up).

My sprinkler installer is scheduled to meet the local FD Captain on Monday. Perhaps they can straighten the situation out. I sure hope so

Constantin

... and now for some air-bound pumps...

Today was also the day that we got to see our very kind and knowledgable Grundfos rep, Greg. He too likes Siggy and Dan, so he must be a good guy. :-P

Of the 6 pumps in the basement, 3 are making rubbing noises. One is loud enough to be heard throughout the house and was shut down previously. Naturally, when we spin it up in front of the rep, it behaves quietly. Once he's gone, it goes back to sounding like a squeaky toy, which our rep has never heard (cell phones are great). He think's it might be a malfunctioning check valve.

Greg very kind and left a new 15-58FC behind, just in case we needed it. Thanks Greg! Naturally, the squeaky toy will get returned to Grundfos for analysis. It should be interesting to find out what is causing that behavior.

Well, if that dead pump is not bad enough, three more pumps are very hot to the touch, while the circuits they feed are very cold. We verify that the balancing knobs on the SV manifolds are all the way open, the pumps are running, yet no heat. Further investigation shows some air in the system (uh-oh) when I open the air bleeder on the return manifold in the 3rd floor. The only two circuits that currently functioning normally are the two at the end of the primary manifold.

Here is what I think happened.

When the Master bed pump started acting up, the heating contractor pulled the cartridge to see if there was any debris. To do that, he had to shut the system down. Since he hadn't fit isolation flange-valves (over my objections), the primary manifold was breached and open to atmosphere while the cartridge was removed. In that time, I presume air was introduced into the system.

Since the master bedroom pump is on the first position of the manifold, the air eventually migrated into the adjacent circuits, disabling them also. The only ones left unaffected are the two circuits at the end of the primary manifold who happen to be mounted with the take-off facing down instead of facing up like all the others. Hence, no air could get into them.

Sound reasonable?

So then the next question becomes... what to do next? Tomorrow, we're going to start by purging the whole heating system from top to bottom. Perhaps then the circuits will no longer be air bound. As a result of this latest experience, I'm leaning towards demanding iso-flanges on all the pumps to prevent this kind of air migration in the future. What do you think?

What about the three pumps that are making varying degrees of grinding noises? If they grind today, what will they sound like before the warranty runs out?

Also, are there good ways to "burp" these pumps? No bleed screw exists, AFAICT... unlike on the larger Grundfos we have to feed the indirect tank.

Once more, many thanks to Grundfos for their support. I hope this episode has a happy ending soon also.

S Ebels

Somewhere at the end

Of every form of code book that I have ever read, it says something like this........... "subject to local jurisdiction".

Good luck Constantin. (

Constantin

Then the Solar goes down too....

... the solar glycol pressure has also dropped from 3 bar down to 1 bar. No leaks visible, so I suppose it must be more air coming out of solution. Yet more glycol to buy, add, argh. The contractor now suggests we set up a large bladder tank, fill it with glycol, fit a pressure-reducing feeder, pressurize the tank, and attach it to the circuit as a quasi "water" feeder.

Sounds interesting, but I'm still baffled as to why the system is losing pressure in the first place. Presumably glycol doesn't shrink this much due to cold weather, does it?

Constantin

... and finally...

... for the biggest mystery of them all, the disappearing Tekmar 369. This zone controller enables the different pumps in our system and has generally worked flawlessly in conjunction with the Viessmann Vitotronic 200.

Yet, for some reason the Tekmar keeps getting shut off before being reanimated from the dead, about 3 minutes later. Presumably all of this is done by the Viessmann Vitotronic. Any idea what could be triggering this?

The WWSD is set to 25°C (it's about 0°C outside) and the sun logo is shining on the Vitotronic Display. Heating and DWH mode is on, the heating timer is set from 00:00 to 24:00.

I wonder if one of my settings may have triggered something, but I have yet to go over the list with a fine-toothed comb. If there is a setting that disables a external zone controller, I have yet to remember it.

Another weird fault/behavior is the reaction to the LWCO. Instead of triggering a fault on the Vitola and shutting it down in software, a LWCO fault currently triggers the whole Vitola to go down. I wonder if the 157 interface in the Switching Module V still sees that fault, or not. I doubt it would...

Time to read up on the 369 and how it is supposed to be interfaced into the Viessmann. Perhaps illumination will follow.

Weezbo

air is tweaking your system....

its tweaking the zones,the solar and LWCO and the circs. so in essence?....you have had a bad Air hay ..as me limey chums would say

Brian (Tankless)

Airy, there's a Joke

in there somewhere.

And it goes something like this:

On a windy afternoon in SoHo London, the wind blew up the frock of a young lady who happened not to be wearing undergarments. A city gent in a bowler, remarked "rather airy isn't it" she replied "course it's airy, what ya expect, feathers"?

I see a big DELETE coming, but what the heck, I got a chuckle just remembering & imagining it.

Brian' just another Limey chum in Louisiana.

Weezbo

Its a bit of a breeze out thear *~/:)

Weezbo

Connie Brian and i are trying to cheer you up ...

remember the valve with a no kink on both sides? with a washing machine hose? thats the quickest way in the world to purge all those loops.

Glen

let me join your rant -

last week I bought a new Sprinter. Shelves, tools etc were all organized. Shake down cruise on the weekend - (see nasty vitola) this Tuesday - engine light comes on. No power, erratic trans shifting, (merde I say to myself) - to the dealer it goes. They have lost the computer module that talks to the Sprinter - today it showed up. Turbo sensor is fubarred - no part available in Canada. Somewhere in the midwest (Ohio?) - seems no part moves in the Daimlerchyrsler world without the paperwork done (oh is that teutonic or what!) So there it sits - a 50 G paperweight. The most disappointing part - the Service Manager can not get it through his head that my livelihood lives in the back of that van. I've grabbed some gear and thrown it into an old ford I have - but this is soo agravating.

Glen

let me join your rant -

darn double click

Weezbo

ok so a lady is feeling kinda lonely....

so she thinks ' well i ought to get something that talks'...so off she trots to the local canary store..."i'd like a little bird that can talk to me," "well we dont have any that can talk just now ,however if you take this parakeet home and talk nice to it it will learn to talk to you"

so off she goes and for the next week she talks to it reakl nice every day...it never says anything,:(

so back she goes to the bird shop 'say listen here that bird hasnt said a word one!"

"well what he probably needs is a cage" so,she buys him a cage and heads home,pus the little bird in the cage and talks real nice to him...

the next week she heads right straight down to the store and is a bit P.Oed...Look that bird cost alot of money an he hasnt said a word...well he probably feels a little bit alieninated i think you should get him a mirror so he can look at himself and not feel alone...so she gets him this cool little mirror and puts it in his cage and talks to him relentlessly for every min she has off work

so after about another week of this she darts down after work and says he hasnt said a word,buh hes been looking at me kinda funny like..."welll what i think hes trying to say is he would like a small ittsy bittsy ladder ,so he can walk up and down look at himself in the mirror and maybe it will encourage him to exercise his vocal cords..."

ok so off she goes puts the little pinner ladder in his cage and he walks up and down the ladder in his cool little cage andlooks at himself in the mirror....and she talks to him every day....

well that friday shee comes home and then trys o get him to talk he swoons a bit falls off the ladder and dies....:(

so she is really really angry so back down to the store she goes and tells the manager what had happened,.." well,did he say anything anything at all before he died?"

well yes he did, just as he fell to the bottom of his cage he looked up at me and said " Dont They Sell FOOD Down at That STore?!

Brian (Tankless)

Take an Exedrin PM

pray for guidance, sleep 8 hr's and call us in the morning

The system will give off one long prolonged fart, and all will be well. Failing that "Find a professional". Sorry Con' couldn't resist it.

Brian, a Limey chum in LA.

Bill Nye_2

Iso flange

I would have demanded them or thrown the contractor off the job. I never install a pump or component w/o some way of isolating.

The noise is most likely from cavatation . Air. You can loosen the pump flange to *BURP* the pump , messy but effective.

Depending on which wiring method your electrician chose to use, the LWCO could effect the Vito control or just disable the burner. I would just disable the burner.

Depending on which wiring method your electrician chose,the vito control could be disabling the Tekmar when you make DHW or during WWSD. The vito heat pump circuit should act as a pump enabler and not as the power source to the tekmar or pump circuit. Use a "clean" or "constant" power source to the Tekmar and let the Viessmann do it's thing and act as pump on /off switch and not as the power source to the control.

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Constantin

I know...

... that's why I hope that my contractor and the Captain can figure this out. It just seems odd that we're getting punished for going beyond the minimum perscribed by MA law, NFPA-13D, etc.

Constantin

You hit it on the head...

...as usual, Bill.

I hadn't changed address A2 from its factory default 2 setting and I didn't realize that the 369 gets shut off when the DHW comes on. I wonder if the 369 is wired into main heating pump circuit in the orange box, that would explain why it goes OFF when the DHW goes on. As a start, I'll change the setting to A2:1 with a possibility of going with a 3-15 value later on.

As for the LWCO, we tied it in per Viessmann specs. That means there is a connection running from and to the orange box on the wall, where there are two LWCO contacts pre-wired. I guess the powers at Viessmann prefer to disable the whole thing rather than just the burner. I'd prefer to do the latter, since that would allow the boiler to send a fault code rather than quietly killing itself.

The system is going to get isolation flanges, it's just a question of when and who will install them.

Thanks again, Bill.

Constantin

Thanks Brian and Weezbo

You did cheer me up. Today, we're going to bleed the air out of those circuits and install the Hydro-Solv.

In two weeks, I expect to have webstone or eqv. flanges on all the pumps, and the pumps mounted offset from the manifold. At that point, we'll see how well the system is performing. If all is tight, we'll add the Rhomar inhibitor.

The Solar is also going to get scheduled and addressed.

As for the fire stuff, let's see what happens on Monday.

Plumdog_2

Sprinkler System sounds bogus

Once upon a time, a GC asked me if I could "hook up" his fire sprinkler system (required because of very steep inaccesable drive). I told him no way. "But all you do is connect it to the water line" he says. "I think you need to get mechanical drawings" I says. Long story short; this little adder put the guy into bankruptcy and now he works at Home Depot putting URL tags on 2x4's so when you get a hundred of them the lady can scan each and every one on the way outside to the truck.

Paul Pollets

How Come??

I'd question the lack of Iso flanges on the pumps or lack of purge valves on the returns...

Isn't Boston where Wetheads come to mate and reproduce?



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Brian (Tankless)

Please tell me

there are FEMALE wetheads in Boston. The optional thought is unthinkable :O)

Thanks for a Saturday morning chuckle, Paul.

So basically, Costantin, when a call came for DHW, the V was giving DHW priority and turning the Tekmar off, then restoring power when the indirect was satisfied? A three minute recovery time is pretty quick, short enough to make you wonder what the heck was going on.

Bill TSG is pretty sharp eh? Nice one Bill.

Brian W. in radiant-free Louisiana. There will be a first, & you bet I'll be involved somewhere

Constantin

Evening Update

Hi Brian and Paul,

Nice to hear from you both. Switching A2 to :1 made the whole issue of the dissappearing Tekmar go away. Now the 4-way simply closes, the circs keep running, and everyone is happy.

Speaking of updates, the house is a lot happier today, now that every zone has been burped, bled, and watered. Even sweeter was the sound of silence in the utility room as all circs (even the one that imitated a gorilla-sized squeeky toy) ran flawlessly. Even better was the heat coursing into the rooms and turning the whole house into the single-temp zone it outght to be.

The pressure on the solar system returned too, which was pretty weird. 20 psi from night to day is a lot, and I wonder what could be causing such wide swings. I'll double-check the Goldline tomorrow to ensure the differential is set to come on at the right temperature.

The rest of the day was spent shuttling things around.. our first load of clothes are in the house, and the dishwasher is getting the benefit of cleaning all sorts of "clean" dishes, pans, pots, mugs, etc. that the current washing machine (me) had gotten clean enough for an initial visual inspection. Yet, the dishwasher (and the jet dry) make my handiwork look pretty amateurish....

I know, I know, find a Pro! :-)

The fire sprinkler issue is still outstanding... but y'all knew that already. I have a bit of amusing news to come in a new thread concerning low water cutoffs. Have a chuckle at my expense, I dare ya!

Weezbo

Ok . Ok . *~/:) \"So,How do I get the dishwasher to work?\"

"Well,....it Might help if you buy some roses and taker out once in a while:)" Weezbo

Robert O'Connor_11

WeeZy

Yer having too much fun with yer keeboard>

GO MAN GO!!

All the best

Robert

ME

Unknown

Air-bound pumps

Sounds kind of strange. Most wet rotor circs are self venting especially the ones with no air vent screws (makes burping difficult if not impossible). Might have a system fluid problem caused by the fresh makeup water. An airlock either in the system or between the impeller and volute installed check valve would cause the circs to dead head - enough to cause the noise though? An inspection of the rotor assembly would tell the tail.

S Ebels

My preference

I try to wire the LWCO so it kills the burner and the circs. Reason being, if the system is dry, I don't want the circs running either. Doing it this way can get a little tricky sometimes but we ususally make it work. An additional relay in the pump circuitry is sometimes required depending on the total amp draw for all the circs.

hr

To burp those circs

I've found it is better to slightly loosen all the allen bolts. Seems those checks can prevent any flow with an air bound impeller. A little squirt around the motor to volute connection seems the best way to get them pumping.

Perhaps the grinding noise is because the spun without any, or enough fluid to lubricate the "wet rotor" bearings?

To purge a system you MUST have good isolation valve and full port purge cocks, like the Webstone.

Often you need to isolate down to one loop at a time to purge. especially if you are using the fill pressure (12psi) to purge with. If you bump the fill upto 20 psi or so, purging is a LOT easier. You need good volume to push air around the larger diameter piping.

On a large job, I'll sometimes connect my Teel 1/2 hp purge pump to get things excited quickly. Again, you need some full port fill and purge cocks to get the best results with pump assist.

hot rod

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Constantin

Thanks for the kind words, Glen!

I hope that your sprinter will be back in commission soon. I once had to wait 2.5 months for a common, injection-molded part on my car that was backordered nationally... while production was running. That galled me quite a bit. But I guess they make more money selling cars than convincing extant customers that their part replacement network works.

A friend of mine in Germany just opened up his first business. It's been quite a birth with all the Government meddling, broken promises, etc. but he's keeping at it. In order to deliver his wares, he leased a Renault (I think) truck that's about the same size as your sprinter. One very attractive aspect of the lease is a guranteed availability clause, which means that whenever his truck is in the service bay that they give him an equivalent replacement truck.

Such policies are very common in other industries as well. For example, a friend of mine who works at ABB told me that they exchange turbines rather than take one out, repair it, and put it back in. That way, the customer always has power. Could be a very good differentiator for a truck manufacturer over here also.

Constantin

We have some isolation...

... but IMHO, not enough. Each manifold loop has a drain and two isolation valves. Yet, there is no valve between the pump and the main manifold, so pumps cannot be exchanged without breaching the main manifold and introducing air into all circuits. This, I want to change.

Our bleeding efforts are assisted by the local water pressure, which is high enough to let a simple water feeder keep up with the bleeding efforts. One the recommendations of Greg at Grundfos, that feeder is now set to 15psi, instead of the factory default 12. Greg thought that maintaining 15 psi is a good minimum, considering that the highest circuit in the house is 25' up from the pump.

The feeder has no problem maintaining pressure in the system, since the plumbers set the house pressure at 75-80psi on the Amtrol pressure-boosting system. That pressure setting seems a tad high, and some shower tests on the 3rd floor will uncover whether a 2.5GPM shower head up there can deliver 2.5GPM when it's running. My first guess is that 50psi in the basement will be enough to do the job and will increase the longevity of water valves in dishwashers, clothes washers, the fridge, etc.

Weezbo

Constantine...

even with an available van ...do you have any idea how many tools and materials are in one of those )) it would take me 3 man days to sort and down load and reload an Available van:) my buddy says he is going to wait until the sprinter is made with Saddle bags..

Mad Dog_2

Don't you love it.......................................

You go out of your way to do something that is NOT required and they break your horns. I'll tak eth installer's version over a FD "expert." Let us know how it turns out. Mad Dog

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Glen

bang on Weezie -

I have a spare van - and weezbo is bang on. It's the misrepresentation that galls me. Knowing this was a new product - I asked both the sales folks and the service manager if they were fully setup to service the Sprinter. I was assured they were. When it does not make it through the first week - that is one story, but when they have to wait 4 days for a "borrowed" computer interface to diagnose the warning light - that is another. I opened my mail today though - rec'd a nice letter from the dealership owners - inviting comments and hoping that my new vehicle experience was positive. I am still committed to the product and can not wait to have my hands on it again - WRT the positive sales experience - the letter may be lengthy.

Uni R

Truck...

It's too bad your dealer didn't have to tow your truck from job to job and on time too. I'll bet that would expedite that part. ;-)

Secretly, I'd love a civilian hybrid Sprinter. The down side would be that I'd have to sleep in it, cuz my wife would kick me out. The other downside would be breaking a vow to never buy another Chrylser product again.

Glen

chyrsler -

had this been a chyrsler product and not manufacturued by Mercedes Benz - I too would have been very reluctant to purchase. Same dealer though ...

Joe_55

Why heating Guys do what the do

Continstin: This is why the majority of heating contractors only want to sell you a "Set it and forget it" simple Pinner boiler system, no call backs, no hassle.

The more intricate your system is designed the more difficult it is to diagnose on that zero degree day when it refuses to function.

A heating system should not be a sientific break through
"Keep it simple"

The loss of pressure in your SDHW system probably escaped from that air vent you have on your roof JMO.

S Ebels

Sprinter

We have almost 17K miles on ours since buying it in March. No problems at all to report except a pencil down the defrost vent, slowly grinding away as the fan runs. MPG has averaged 21.8 to this point. Actual measured miles divided by gallons numbers not an estimate from the gauge. Very inexpensive vehicle to run with 10K service intervals.

Note, buy a good set of snow tires if you want to be able to move in the winter. They are not the greatest in the white stuff. Course' I am used to 4WD Ford diesels so it's not a fair comparison.

Constantin

That thought crossed my mind...

... so I had a look up there. The vent is covered by a copper cap assembly...that I sealed to the pipe coming out of the roof. I saw no evidence of a leak around the base of the cap, though I will go back today to take the cap off and have another look. It's easy enough to simply close the valve leading to that upper vent.

Your observation re: KISS are spot-on as well. Yet, with the right care in the initial wiring, piping, setup of this system (and isolation flanges around the pumps in particular), etc. none of these issues would have cropped up. Any pump can get airbound, the question is how to quickly bring it back to normal operation.

Constantin

So True...

... I don't get it either. I've only had to deal with the FD once before (to break into my mums apartment, but that's another story) and you couldn't have met a nicer, more caring group of guys than the ones we dealt with at the fire station around the corner.

Don't get me wrong, if a standpipe is required by code, we'll put one in. At the moment though, the need seems ambiguous, and the location (due to refill mechanism for the sprinkler tank) seems questionable. But what do I know, I'm just the homeowner.

Many thanks for your thoughts, I wonder who we can turn to next if this becomes a bona-fide FD-installer firefight. I'll post the results later as I receive them.

Douglas Hicks

We seem to have a problem in terminology here. A standpipe is a pipe that the FD connects the pumper to so as to pump water to upper stories and to the roof so hoses don't have to be carried to the fire floor. A fire department connection (FDC) can be found on the standpipe. An FDC can also be piped into the sprinkler system to support the sprinkler system. I think this is what the FD is asking for. In this case, the FDC would be between the pump & sprinkler piping. A fire truck will pump up to 1500 GPM and pressue up to 200 PSI. The residential pump willnot come close the a pumper truck. Ask for clarification and specific codes, such as NFPA 13R-2002, Section ?????.???.??. My experience is that most FD personnel don't do a good job on code and inspections.

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc

Constantin

Unfortunately, they seem to be circling the wagons...

... I just got off the phone with my GC and have yet to further clarify the issues. It appears that some FD officials are now claiming that NFPA 13D does not apply to our structure in Cambridge. Instead, they claim that we'd have to install a NFPA 13R-compliant system, if at all, which is great since the house is built, finished, and a 13R system would basically require a gut-job to install.

Thing is, I'm happy to install whatever they want at the front end of the house. If they want to be able to tie into the sprinkler system, be my guest, it's easy enough to do. That's not the problem, it's how the regulations we're supposed to build to are being changed AFTER the fact. My guess is that the installer and the Lt rubbed each other the wrong way and now my GC and I are being made to suffer for it.

It does not seem to matter that the original specs, drawings, applications, etc. were signed off with gusto. We're now being told that "we can't catch everything that comes across our desk". Funny that, given that they didn't catch it in the application phase, the rough-in inspection phase, etc. From my limited perspective on the sidelines, where does oversight end and abuse of power begin?

Anyway, we're still moving in and I hope that we can get this FD issue settled before it has to go to court.

jerry scharf_3

you're not alone

Constantin,

Let me guess, fire sprinklers aren't even required for your building and thus are not that common.

Just so you don't feel alone. I worked with a owner-rep on a large construction project. One of his prior job, the fire and police departments couldn't agree on where the emergency key box should be. They argued for an hour with no resolution. In a break in the action, he pointed out the site on the approved drawing for the box. They both agreed that it meant nothing and went back to arguing. That job ended up going to the mayor to break stuff like that free. He said he's much rather work in New York that this city, you know what you need to do to get a building done.

Building enforcement at it's lowest.

Why not ask them what would be required to abandon the system in place? If it's relatively reversable, it may be easiest to do that.

jerry