UNIONS OPPOSE COLLEGE PROGRAM (Dan H.)

Eugene Silberstein 3

Thanks Gerry. I owe you a beer.

DanHolohan

I just got this:

UNION OPPOSITION THREATENS FUTURE OF HVAC TRAINING CENTER AT COMMUNITY COLLEGE

Five years ago, OHCC became a contractual partner with Suffolk County Community College to establish the HVAC-R Technical Training Center at the Brentwood Campus. This program provides an education for young men and women, while providing them with the technical skills to achieve a one-year Certificate or two-year Associates Degree in Applied Sciences in Heating, Ventilation, Air-Conditioning and Refrigeration.

The Oil Heat Comfort Corp and its industry partners have invested well over $350,000 in this program since its inception, equipped and installed the HVAC labs, and provided learning materials for students. In return, we are able to use the facility for our purposes when not in use by the College. Our highly successful Intro. to Oilheat, AC for Oilheat Techs, and numerous other classes have all been run at the Brentwood Campus.

In order to expand the HVAC-R program and make it available to more students, the College has proposed building a new, significantly larger, state-of-the-art HVAC Center on Campus. $2.5 million (50% of the cost) has been approved and allocated by NY State and the remaining 50% would be appropriated by Suffolk County in its long term Capital Budget. An initial vote on this project appropriation will be taken by the Economic Development, Higher Education & Energy Cmte. of the Suffolk County Legislature on the morning of Wednesday, June 7, 2006.

Unfortunately, we have been informed that a coalition of construction trade unions...electricians, plumbers, pipe/steam fitters, sheet-metal workers, etc...plans to vigorously oppose, not only the construction of the new facility, but the continuance of the entire HVAC program by the College. Their argument is that this educational degree program is in conflict with their existing apprenticeship programs for union members... notwithstanding the fact that no current union apprenticeship program provides comprehensive, multi-functional HVAC training for residential and light-commercial applications.

Unlike these union-sponsored programs, the Associates Degree in HVAC-R offered by Suffolk Community College not only provides the technical skills young men and women will need to gain employment in the heating/air-conditioning field, but also the liberal arts curriculum needed to become educated, informed and involved citizens in our communities.

The SCCC-HVAC Program is strongly supported by the entire heating/cooling industry on Long Island. If you believe in this program as we do, and if you believe that this facility is necessary to train our existing and future workforce, then your voice must be heard by the elected members of the Suffolk County Legislature. Call, write or e-mail your local legislator today, (a list and correspondence samples are attached), and urge your service techs to do the same. Tell them you support Introductory Resolution 1511 (the funding appropriation for the new HVAC facility) and ask them to support it. If you are a union shop, let them know that as well...it is very important. If you are a Nassau-based company, contact Presiding Officer Bill Lindsay’s office on behalf of your service tech employees who live and work in Suffolk.

We will not be able to counteract the expected construction trades opposition without everyone in our industry pulling together to let the Suffolk County Legislators know that the construction trade unions do not speak for us, for our companies, for our service techs or for our customers!

*If either you or your employees do not know who your particular Legislators are, please call our offices at (631) 360-0200 for assistance.

DanHolohan

And just so you know.

This is the program run by Professor Eugene Silberstein.

Glen

while I still have -

a union card in my pocket, I must note that the UA is always threatened by others that may take over their "turf". In a former life - I was on staff - and this issue is alive and well above the 49th as well - and a major problem in recruitment and organizing (union side). Is there no possibility of a training coalition? One that can embrace both sides of the union/non issue?

Dick_3

Letters

Dan,

I think you missed the last form letter required for this effort covering the remaining contractors, possibly the biggest percentage.

Where's the form letter for non-union companies that do not pay prevailing wages and benefits; or in other words, a form letter for companies that pay low wages and no and/or mediocre benefits?

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DanHolohan

My guess

is that they wouldn't be hiring the fine graduates of this college.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I'm in the fitters union but this makes me sick. I went to a community college myself.

The union can think they have the best training in the world and maybe in some areas they do-but they do not train "service techs or troubleshooters" and in most locals they don't even try.

After reading the monthly "UA Journal" that I get I think this is what is going on:

By all accounts there is a LOT of construction work coming up. They say it will resemble the after WW II boom. There is a HUGE shortage of qualified help and the union wants to compete to get this "new help". They want to get them and train them and increase their membership.

Thats ok with me but this aint the way to go about it. Just plain stupid. JMHO


Ed

Steamhead (in transit)

We've all learned

that no one has all the answers. And most of us know that more and better training is needed in our industry.

So if the unions are going to oppose any training but their own, they're shooting themselves and the whole industry in the foot.

Only in America......

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ScottMP

The biggest Issuie

in our industry is the lack of young people entering our trade. So the union wants to oppose a training center that would help elivate the trades.

Can you say short sighted .... I knew you could.

We ALL must help in anyway we can to shed light, to shine a torch light on our trades and bring more people in. In this way we can raisa the bar and actually put preasure on those companys that do not pay proper wages or benifits.

Everyone must dp what they can.

Scott


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singh

The UA

As a graduate of the 5 year UA program in NYC, I know they also can help ypu
gain an associates degree thru one of their partner schools. ( I think Purdue U)
Not only is it online , it not practical and as in all unions,there is politics, favoritism, and red tape involved.
Now I will be the first one to say my 5year apprenticeship training, both practical and theorectical instruction was the best. But, it is not well rounded, does not get into service too much, mostly pipefiting and for commercial jobs only.

I support the local community college and their HVAC program and effort. I wish there was more community colleges that have this program such as SCC.

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[Deleted User]

The unions have ALWAYS been opposed to other programs...

Even here in Colorado. By voicing your support, you will show the legislators that the union voice is a small voice in comparison to the needs of the masses. They CAN be over powered, and theirs is but one position, albeit a substantial position.

There is power in numbers. Both ways...

I remember when the pipe fitting trades pulled out of RRCC. Everyone thought it would be the end of the world. We actually got bigger and stronger when they pulled out, and many of their members ended up coming back and getting furter educated at the employers expense.

If the unions did not organize against public education channels, they fear that it could be interpreted as a weakness. Maybe they are of the ilk that if you train your employees too well, they might start wandering... Who knows for sure.

In any case, other than it being tax payers dollars, some of which may include the union membership, the program can and will operate with or without the help/support of the union sector. But it still needs to be voiced.

Those with the largest voice will be heard the most over the noise of the crowd in general.

Speak your piece or forever remain silent.

ME

hr

Tony Soprano logic



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Constantin

Sounds to me like a control issue...

... what cannot be controlled is bad, at least in some peoples eyes. Many (but certainly not all) unions in the US have done a fabulous job of ensuring short-term gains for their membership at the expense of long-term business viability. As a result, many new businesses are extremely hostile re: unions (see Wal-Mart, for example)

So, if the unions cannot stop the community education centers from teaching, I say go it alone and let the unions pound salt. Hopefully, enlightened employers who care more about education than union cards will step up to the plate and keep hiring the kinds of folk who show a committment to the trade.

Unknown

As a former president

of a union and also one who entered management of a company it is all about members (which is money and power.) Union training programs tend to be very selective and geared toward a particular field of endeavor. I have run into this when I was teaching at a local trade school and still carrying a union card. I was called on the carpet and chastised for participating in a non-union endeavour concerning education. I decided that this narrow minded attitude was more than I could take and resigned my union membership.

I get trades people from both union training programs and non union programs in my training seminars, the truth is there is a tremendous void for good training which is performance based. I know the type of training Eugene offers is very performance based and I applaud Suffolk for their increased efforts in educating workers who will be able to step into a job and perorm with excellence. To many training programs fall short of teaching beyond theory in installation and piping. The biggest lack however is in the service side. This is a much negelected area in many training programs.

I encourage Suffolk and Eugene to fight the good fight and prevail in your efforts. There is a enough out there for everyone why do we want to fight something that can only advance our trade.

Eugene Silberstein 3

Thanks Timmie

As always, thanks for your support.

Brian_18

Intimidation.....then... Legislation

Let me qualify myself first, I’m NOT in your trade, or run a business in your profession. I run a manufacturing company.

Unfortunately for the unions, membership is slipping dramatically nationwide for ALL trades. They're trying to protect their golden goose at all costs. I suspect after they are through this discouragement campaign, they will dial up the politicians which they elect. They will have laws crafted that will make certificate & degree from the college moot in the business world, and make ONLY union sponsored training recognized as valid. If you don't think this can happen, it HAS happened where I live. A new law passed my (NY) County that says for ALL contracts over $250k, contractors MUST have a qualified training program (apprenticeship) in place in order to be qualified. Guess who have the ONLY certified apprenticeship programs in place in NY.....yep you guessed it...the unions. I'm actually embarrassed to tell this story.

http://www.wnymedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1430&Itemid=37

I hope everyone involved is angered, and reacts to support the College, and Prof. Silberstein. Voice your outrage to County, AND State lawmakers. Tell them you VOTE, and have a long memory.

John R. Hall

Eugene, et al

Please keep me in the loop and let me know how the meeting turns out. I see this as a definite NEWS' item.

Eugene Silberstein 3

Will Do, Mr. Hall

That's a given John.

Bob Sweet

I was a member of the UA local here, as well and always felt that their training was very good, I do feel that it is geared toward commercial and industrial level work but non the less very good.

But as a sign of the times, the local UA here has resorted to supply house leaflets and want ads in the local paper to attract help, I'm not trying to degrade the union I think they serve a needed service, but these kind shinanigans don't serve them well at all.

I read somewhere the average age of a plumber is 45, WE gotta intice the young ones to come into the trades. Education is the key. Keep it up Eugene!

Eugene Silberstein 3

Thanks, Bob

We intend to...

Thanks for your support.

Glen

unless there is kisses -

perdue is out. Michigan State is in. Seems that Perdue did their last major expansion non union. Regardless - like other blogs - the UA is shooting itself in the foot. I am entrenched as anybody re union/non (lean left) - but on this issue - someone needs to get their head out of their arse. If we listen to Dan, Mr. Bean. Siggy, et al - education is the key. Let the UA organizers use 401K, prevailing wage ( in the US) and favourable organizing legislation in Canada to expand the ranks. Mr Christiano - are you out here??????? Organize like you have never danced before.

Big Ed

There is Always the Other Side of the Coin

First to vent ......... Why is it that every professional(Doctor, Lawyer ,Engineer or indian chief) can join a association and its for the good of the profession ,but the professional tradesman that joins a union are labeled greedy gangsters out to destroy businesses or go too far. Ask any non union worker of 20 years or more and ask what he would wish for.. He will tell you "a pension". A union is a association made up of skilled workers which helps them achive a living wage and a safe working environment......

Walmart was mentioned for a example as hostile toward unions... Well sure ......Don't you think if they gave their workers above $5 per hour in this country and $1.50 a day in China it would cut in to their $1,000,000,000 per day profit...... Gee they may have to ground a dozen or so of their private jets or sell one of their Corperate Country club... How much is too much ? Who is the real Gangsters ? *Vent over*


Yes the Trade unions are against the movement of teaching the trades, from under The Department of labor and giving it to the Department of Education ......They do want to maintain the apprenticeship programs Under the Department of Labor.

And lobbying on the pro side....... The ABC (The Association of Builders and Contractors) which are a union made up of of owners that are known to hire day labors and pay a tradesman a non union scale ($12.50 hr and a chicken sandwich)..... With the movement of training under the Department of Education they don't have to invest in their own apprenticeship program ... Yes the tax payer will pick up the tap ..


The Question .............Could someone learn the trade in a class room under a teacher or out in the field under a Tradesman?

I feel from raw material ........A class room alone could only hand out a tool box of 2D knowledge.

The classroom is better suited for a tradesman with a open mind who wants to be a master.

P.S. Service of a system can not be mastered until the tech fully understands the system. And one could not start to understand a system until one installs one.

TGO_57

The biggest point that everyone seems to be overlooking is that the training at SCCC is for a degree, it is very heavy on theory in all aspects of HVAC, and very light on practical. It is a totaly different program from a union apprenticship. The fact that the unions are so upset by it indictes to me that they really have no idea about what is going on at SCCC.


I support both the college and Eugene Silberstien and will be sending in letters. I have no issue with unions or their training, but I will not stand by while they try to undermine a program that is a huge asset to my industry.

Larry_19

Frade Unions

Larry_19

Trade Unions

Dear Dan:

I am disappointed in you. Frist, bashing trade unions and second for taking a stand that says you are only for the non union sector.

Education is an important aspect of any trade and if you side with one does that mean all unions and it's members are bad. Or that all non unoin members do not known what they are doing? Yes we find that the untrained and the uneducated are the ones that give all of us a bad reputation.

Just for your information, you should try and research the facts "being a writer of information" like you are. For example: The beginings of the trade unions.

I can give you a referance to the Encyclopeade Britannica. It shows that the unions (AFL the American Federation of Labor) was started to form educational centers for those of the same trade to learn from one another.

The problem is that those who can not always learn form those who already know how to do the work always think it is in their best intrest for every one to be igorant. And anyone can do the job, they just need to be shown how to do it. They can do it too. The problem wih that thinking is they have no theory on how it works.

The CIO for your information was were colective barganing that came into play ( the Congress of industial occupation )and the trade unions did not want them to be a part of them because they saw the piggy back ride they would take with out the effort of training. We all know education is the key, to what gives you an advantage in pay, along with the experiance. Does the ABC really want qualified people? When working for differant contractors I have found out that some really only want a monkeys to do the work and then those who go to school and get training are only good until they have to pay them to much. Some don't think that way either so it is really it is up to the individual employer as we all know.

I have really wanted those with an educational attidute to read the wall, I have even promoted the wall with all those, who I have came in contact with in the trade and those who work in a buildings with steam or hydronics, to look to the wall for answers. Plus I have bought most of your books ( the most famous the lost art of steam) including words form woody and your last book, working. Not only once but serval times for others in the trade who have a passion for the trade like me.

I think you have the best handle on vapor steam, and I have been to you schools three times, twice in Chicago once at our union eductional Center 597. (And at the Deadmen steam school in the 90's) Plus, once in Milukee for two days.

Because I have thought that you were an unbias educator I have always promoted your web site with those that I talk with, in and out of the trade. Now, I wonder if I really should?

From your aspect all unions suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that is the polite way of saying it. The Non-union is great. But just remember without the unions there would be no codes and no standards on how to do things. Things just would be done anyway someone wanted to do them. If you don't beleive me.... Move to one of the southern states like my Mom lives in, were they have no codes because there are no inspectors. Plus, Dan think about all these People reading the wall, How much would they really know if they didn't get the education form some one in the trade unoin in the begining?

I am sorry to say, if union bashing continues at this site I have no reason to promote it or support it.


What really gets me it is okay to bash the union sector but no one cares how the non-union treats anyone as long as they are getting paid what they think they should.

I do have a question? If the unions are so bad why are those that are educated union? How many teachers are union? Or how many cops and firemen are union? Or why do they have student unions at the univesity? Or why are all those in the Medical professional union? And why are Doctors talking about becoming union?

Dan
Please, Think about the the stand you are converying? And do not condenmen all the unions because of ones actions.


Larry

larry.r.leyba@jci.com

Hydronova

Union bashing

Lest you forget that most of the "dead men" you revere so much were union boys. I for one am sick of these courses that allow contractors to pay 30k a year to some monkey with a "certificate" instead of the 80-100k you would get with a union endorsed red seal. I work for a service union company and my education was second to none. At least where I am from the non-union sector is famous for using dangerously underqualified workers which provide not only poor service but are an embarrassment to what our founding tradesmen strived for.

Eugene Silberstein 3

Just a thought.

Not to get into a peeing match, but Dan never said he was anti union, or even pro union for that matter. The letter that is referenced in the first post in this thread was provided by a Long Island Organization, OHILI that has worked diligently, in conjunction with the administration at Suffolk County Community College to get this program up and running. This was done to fill the void that was left when a similar program, also offered at a State University of New York (SUNY) college, closed down. Neither the program at SUNY Farmingdale nor the program at SCCC were targeted by the unions as being anti-union.

When the program at SCCC first kicked off in September 2003, it was done quite publicly, with ribbon-cutting ceremonies and open house events. There were no union card holders picketing the events. Quite the contrary, many of the attendees were employees/owners and managers of companies that employ union labor.

The monies were allocated for the building, a design firm was selected, the design process has begun... all without incident or a hinting of dissention... until now.

The purpose of the program is intended to provide high quality education to ALL who desire it. Some of our students in the program have never spent a single day in the field, while others are union card-carrying journeymen with over 20 years in the field.

Our job as educators is to, well, provide education. And this is what we do.


As mentioned in the opening letter:

Unlike these union-sponsored programs, the Associates Degree in HVAC-R offered by Suffolk Community College not only provides the technical skills young men and women will need to gain employment in the heating/air-conditioning field, but also the liberal arts curriculum needed to become educated, informed and involved citizens in our communities.

So, I think it suffices to say that Dan (if I may speak for him), and myself for that matter, are neither pro-union nor anti-union, but are, in a collective voice, PRO EDUCATION.

Eugene Silberstein 3

No Matter...

Whether union or non-union, there is no excuse for poor service and low quality work.

In my day, I have seen high quality work performed by both union and non-union labor and, unfortunately, I have also seen some real miserable work done by both as well.

Just as there are those who excel at what they do, there are also those who are holding union cards that cannot attain journeyman status, even though they have 6 or more years under their belts.

What a man is worth is influenced by his individual skills and abilities, whether union or not. The college program is about three things:

- Providing Education for the Community

- Providing Education for the Community

- Providing Education for the Community

And, as I mentioned in a previous post, we have both union and non-union individuals walking through our door each day... and they're all there for the same reason.

DanHolohan

That's correct.

I have said absolutely nothing againt the unions, or in favor of non-union shops. I have posted news, as I do with all press releases I receive.

Larry, that was very unfair.

Gary Reecher

From what I gather each local can be as different as night and day. Web sites of a local in Denver provides lots of continuing education for its journeymen. Yet the local in our area provides no continuing ed for its journeymen they can go through the apprenticeship courses again. Yet this local is also deadset against the HVAC program at the local community college as well as RSES programs. One shakes ones head in wonder as how such locals merely exist.

Couderay

Unbelieveable

Well all I have to say about that is,I'm proud to be union. It's what made this country great.For the working man that is.One wonders now what is happening, this forum here is a classic example.Corruption on both sides will be the downfall.United we stand, divided we beg You make the call.

DanHolohan

Joe,

are you against the educational program at Suffolk Community College?

Couderay

Nope

DanHolohan

That's good.

Because that's what we're talking about here.

jackchips_2

It appears

that some responders to this thread completely missed the point. There is no bashing in the press release Dan has put out that started all this.

Take a deep breath, write down your feelings and send them along to the address provided.

We can all learn from serious debate but not deregotory, personal attacks.

Editing, anyone?

Jack

Brad White_78

Well said, Jack

As usual.

Some of the posts that expressed the most dismay came from union members offended that their sister organizations/locals would strive to stop Professor Silberstein's program. Rank and file versus leadership it would seem to me. Classic disparity between the two.

Others reacted and apparently without reading the postings. Some apparently feel threatened by the discussion let alone the core substance.

Let's try to keep the responses well, responsive.

My $0.02

Brad

Mad Dog_2

What else is new................................................

They fought the PHCC for an apprenticeship, but the PHCC ultimately got it. They can fight it all they want, but they would lose in court. They need to get some decent (oxymoronic?)politicians on board, get Newsday Involved. I was Union-trained as well, and the training was second to none, however, this is America and people deserve alternatives and choices. Mad Dog

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EdyLogicMstr.

Unions = Sucking up

The root of evil in our industry = UNIONS IMHO.

I'm on a job now with union plumbers on a residential job. It's quite embarrassing. They don't even know what the heck is going on with my condensation drain. More to come as I have a LOT to say about the way union plumbers have held me down.

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EdyLogicMstr.

Unions = Sucking up


They should be called: The Anti-eduacaton mafia.

The root of evil in our industry = UNIONS IMHO.

I'm on a job with union plumbers on a residential job. It's quite embarrassing. They don't even know what the heck is going on with my condensation drain. More to come as I have a LOT to say about the way union plumbers have held me down.

* Note: My opinions are those based on my personal experiences....


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EdyLogicMstr.

Why are union plumbers working on residential?

* Note: My opinions are those based on my personal experiences....

This disturbs me very deeply after the ignorance and arrogance WRT this project Im working on. They: "the Union plumbers" told me that I can't use press fittings. They told me that PEX is "junk" While I watched them burn out a 2x4 wall and I Pressed a dozen fittings with my REMS. Further,, they did NOT know how to size the hot water heating system. When I provided the means,,, they refused to connect the potable system to it. OUCH!!! Those LITTLE MEN!

Why would the Union object to Eugene's classes? This blows my freaking mind and reaffirms my anti-union campaign.

I don't give a crap about the ramifications of this post. THE UNIONS MUST GO! They are corrupt. FACT!!!

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Bob Boltz

Unions

I'll be for unions when I see a union member, get a union shop, to build them a house. In our area, they get all their buddies to do it on the side.