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$1000 a day!?
Scott Gregg
Member Posts: 187
I looked for someone who would want the old wood and possibly take it down, even for free to get rid of it. After 5 months, yellow pages and internet I had no takers so down it came. The wood was very dry and brittle anyway. By the flames we had, I would say it had a pretty high BTU value though. :-)
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Comments
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$1000 a day?!
We are in the process of remodeling our home in the Pliladelphia area and I just recieved a bill from my general contractor that I thought was a little excessive and pressed him for the itemization of what was contained in the bill. He said that there were some items that were outside contracted work; specifically the charge for demolition of the boiler and related piping and the demolition of the air conditioning system. The general contractor stated that the HVAC company billed him $2000 to do this work and that it is outside the contract he has with them. I pressed him to see their bill and was shocked to see that this work only took one day. According to the bill it was 2 mechanics and 2 helpers for 1 day. This seems very high to me for taking out junk. Am I wrong and is this something the general contractor should have had his crew handle themselves? --Stressed Sharon P0 -
A Bargain...
Our billable hour for mechanical HVAC work in a major city would be significantly more than what you were billed.
Count your blessings. Quality workmanship is not inexpensive. The costs to operate a contracting business are enormous...far more than the general public undertands.
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I understand that mechanical work is more.
I understand mechanical work or installation or service work would be more but this was just to remove the old system. How much mechanical skill does it take to load junk on a truck and take it to the dump? Sorry...I must be in the wrong profession!0 -
Sharon,
You may have a point but you also wouldn't beleive the damage a "junkie" can cause. Examples:
Cut the wrong pipe and flood the house.
Leaving exposed live wiring
A cellar full of soot
Damage to the building, sidewalk, stairs
etc,etc,etc,etc
Ed0 -
Skilled labor is expensive...
and usually worth every penny. There was probably asbestos involved, which means by law it can not be done by just anyone. Even if the system were ACM free, having the wrong people in there with sawzalls can be disastrous. I've been called to jobs before where the HO called in the local "handy man" who hired winos off the corner to do his work. When I got there, the place was covered with asbestos. They were not taking proper precautions. They had cut the gas line (by mistake), and wanted me to fix it. I called the local utility company and let them go down and shut them down. Looking into the windows, the "help" had cut the pipes off flush to the wall, and the walls were solid concrete. Talk about saving money...
I, like most other business men here have to charge significantly more per man per day than you paid. If I'd have staffed that job with 4 of my guys, you'd have paid twice as much. Count your blessings, get used to it and move on. It's not what I WANT to charge, it's what i MUST charge if I am to stay in business. You DO want your heating contractor to stay in business. You'll be married to him for life.
BTW, what profession ARE you in? A CPA per chance?
ME
(Master Plumber)0 -
in winter Sharon ....
i spend twice that a day ...instead of how much did you make today, it is a case of how much does it Cost a day, to stay in business.
if you want to, say, move garbage ,then after the plumbers are out ...hire garbage movers.then you get professionals to do what they do best .0 -
There's lotsa guys who'll doit fer less Sharon,
But they may not have insurance. If something happens to your house due to their work, you'll have to fire them and pay the bill yourself... meanwhile finding someone else to finish the job.
They may not have the right tools and knowledge and therefore take twice as long or more. They may not be charging enough to cover their fixed and indirect costs of doing business. When you have an issue next year that should be under warranty, they will be out of business and unable to help you. They may not be making a decent profit and when they realize they are losing money they definitely won't be motivated to do a good job for you.
If they hire extra unskilled workers to do demolition jobs, their overhead is still higher, AND the cost of insurance, etc... is just as much per man.
I hope you are happy with the job they did. That is more important than finish date or anything else.
"When you buy quality, you only cry once." Kevin0 -
cost
Sharon, I'm just a homeowner who frequents the wall but I've gotten invaluable advice from the professionals here. Three years ago we did a complete restoration of our steam heating system and it was not inexpensive. One of the major costs was the demolition of the 75+ year old boiler which was insulated with asbestos and the removal of the rest of the asbestos insulation on the pipes. The entire job was done properly and safely and was done ONCE. It costs these people big money to stay in business and do jobs like this CORRECTLY. Ultimately it's your health and safety and the health and safety of your family that is at stake. Consequently it costs us as homeowners big money to have these things done right. These people are worth every penny they charge and then some. In the end you really do get what you pay for.0 -
Sharon,
I could see how you would be shocked at this bottom line, especially because it had come to you as an "extra!" I bet it would have been a lot less painful if that price was already worked into the job. Which a good GC would have done.
My company is based out of Media, PA and those prices do not seem excessive at all. Like many other guys stated we would have actually been more. If you looked at it as if it was your own company and two mechanics where on one job you would (as a company) be losing a considerable amount of money because they could have been elsewhere. Time and material work only gets everyone upset.
My best advice to you would be sit down with your GC and try to iron out all the work that will be done in your house and try to avoid anymore extras such as these mentioned above.
Good luck, Jamie
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I feel a little better but...
> Sharon,
>
> I could see how you would be shocked
> at this bottom line, especially because it had
> come to you as an "extra!" I bet it would have
> been a lot less painful if that price was already
> worked into the job. Which a good GC would have
> done.
>
> My company is based out of Media, PA
> and those prices do not seem excessive at all.
> Like many other guys stated we would have
> actually been more. If you looked at it as if it
> was your own company and two mechanics where on
> one job you would (as a company) be losing a
> considerable amount of money because they could
> have been elsewhere. Time and material work only
> gets everyone upset.
>
> My best advice to you
> would be sit down with your GC and try to iron
> out all the work that will be done in your house
> and try to avoid anymore extras such as these
> mentioned above.
>
> Good luck, Jamie
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 289&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0 -
I feel a little better but...
> Sharon,
>
> I could see how you would be shocked
> at this bottom line, especially because it had
> come to you as an "extra!" I bet it would have
> been a lot less painful if that price was already
> worked into the job. Which a good GC would have
> done.
>
> My company is based out of Media, PA
> and those prices do not seem excessive at all.
> Like many other guys stated we would have
> actually been more. If you looked at it as if it
> was your own company and two mechanics where on
> one job you would (as a company) be losing a
> considerable amount of money because they could
> have been elsewhere. Time and material work only
> gets everyone upset.
>
> My best advice to you
> would be sit down with your GC and try to iron
> out all the work that will be done in your house
> and try to avoid anymore extras such as these
> mentioned above.
>
> Good luck, Jamie
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 289&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0 -
I feel a little better but...
> Sharon,
>
> I could see how you would be shocked
> at this bottom line, especially because it had
> come to you as an "extra!" I bet it would have
> been a lot less painful if that price was already
> worked into the job. Which a good GC would have
> done.
>
> My company is based out of Media, PA
> and those prices do not seem excessive at all.
> Like many other guys stated we would have
> actually been more. If you looked at it as if it
> was your own company and two mechanics where on
> one job you would (as a company) be losing a
> considerable amount of money because they could
> have been elsewhere. Time and material work only
> gets everyone upset.
>
> My best advice to you
> would be sit down with your GC and try to iron
> out all the work that will be done in your house
> and try to avoid anymore extras such as these
> mentioned above.
>
> Good luck, Jamie
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 289&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0 -
I feel a little better but...
I feel better knowing that it wasn't just taking the junk out, but I still will take it to issue with the general contractor since I think this should have been included in the contract since the GC knew the old equipment would have to come out. When subcontractors bid work is the removal of old equipment included in the bid price? This isn't the only issue we have had with the general contractor, the whole front of the roof had to be redone after the blueskin was already on, another extra! But I think that is for a different board. And no Mark, I am not a CPA my husband and I are both Blue collar, like yourselves. Thank you, gentlemen for the explanation. --Sharon P0 -
Sounds like
A recent "re-experience" of mine. I knew better, but ignored myself. (Which led to annoying myself)
I told a prospective customer the job would cost about $1100 with him supplying some material he already had. He actually had more of what we needed than he had shown me when I looked it over. When I billed him I accounted for the bonus mat'l and the T&M bill came to $1043. He didn't thank me for being honest, he complained about the hourly rate for my help and snidely asked about a job.
I very nicely told him it would require a cut in his current income as he didn't have the skills necessary for this work or he could've done it himself. I then told him he would have to start at what I pay our "apprentice" who I didn't even charge him for.
Should've just charged the 1100 w/o the itemized bill.
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All things are relative
Cost of the truck(s)insurance and maintenance
Possible equipment rental or paying for the proper equipment to do a job like this without harming the existing buildings. These costs are built into the cost of doing business.
Employee costs (Skilled and reputable, not someone out on work release!) This includes benifits and taxes of course
Disposal costs
Time spent unloading your junk somewhere else (The trash fairy does not unload trucks)
Liability Insurance costs
gas cost
Profit AFTER paying for these and possible other costs. (No one I know is in this business as a hobby and contracting companies are "For Profit"
Did they do a good job? Are you happy with the work?
Here is a side story for you:
I tore down an old barn last year on my property. I rented a mini excavtor ($650) I rented a dump bed trailer($250), I burned a tank of gas ($65) I was charge at my local dump about $350 in fees (Cheap by many standards)
Me and a good freind worked a very long 12 hour day that day and another 8 hours the next finishing up and rented a Bobcat skid steer ($250) (And the rental place cut me a break on that by $150!)
We dug a huge burn hole, ripped apart the barn, hauled what we could away and burned the rest in the hole. (That saved a fortune in dump fees) It was long, hard, smelly work and a constant safety hazzard.
If I were asked to this for another person, and had to add my other cost to it...Well I won't tell you a price. Take the above numbers and you give me a price. This is not to be crass but to just you and others an idea of what is involved in many jobs that look like require less skill than others.
Have some fun that will make you feel better. Get out your pencil and calculator and tell me how much you will charge to demo my barn (Above) using those same figures and two very hard days. Then, how much is that per day?
0 -
Exclusions
The contractor should have included the demo in the fix. If not, it should have been stated in the contract's "exclusions" and discussed with you prior to beginning work.
Not stating a cost required to do the job in contract form is amateurish, or deliberate...
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Look at your contract!
Sharon, because if teeny little things like demolition of the boiler and the AC system were overlooked by your "contractor", in this renovation, you are in for a lot of "surprises". This is just the first little detour of you're getting taken for a ride. The cost of the extra, as many have posted here is a very reasonable cost for the work done, but to "miss" that work is disturbing to say the least. Consider this a big red warning flag!
Ask them why this was out of scope? Ask them how could you have over looked this? Worse yet, have they overlooked the out of scope extra of putting new systems back in? Hash this out before you get really soaked.0 -
removing old equipment
Many of the previous threads are 100% correct. Getting a "junker" to remove this type of equipment could cause damage to your property in excess of the cost (and they probably are not insured). Our company frequently hires an outside contractor to remove equipment and guess what. Our OSHA recordable injuries (back) have basically vanished. Workman's comp is a major expense for businesses.0 -
I said this before and I'll say it again....Professional plumbing is not expensive, it pays.0 -
How much does your lawyer get for an hour?0 -
*~/:)
Now, Had you sold the building to some enterprising ladds , you could have had a few dollars in your pocket and the building would be gone
only thing is it might take a while for it to go Bye Bye
old boilers are not real "fast movers" buh maybe someone would dash at the opportunity if you auctioned salvage rights on e=Bay.... nah...it would sit in the basement for gravity....gravity is a long long time....:)0 -
cost
What makes up a days pay.
401K's
coffee
health insurance
holiday pay
sick pay
vacation pay
uniforms
A/C maintenance
Building repairs
cleaning service
utilities
rent
furniture
gas or heating oil
landscaping
parts
security systems
license
tools
callbacks
bad debt
cash reserves
certification test
collections
company affairs
dealers meetings
employee testing and training
advertising
Internet access
inventory
inventory shrinkage
invoicing
legal services
liability insurance
management training
mobile phones
office training
pagers
property insurance
subscriptions
tax preparation
technician training
trade association memberships
brochures
charitable contribution
customer satisfaction surveys
door hangers
home and garden shows
newsletters advertising
sales commissions
warranties
website yellow pages
youth sport sponsorships
accounting
computer systems
copiers
fax machines
files and cabinets
networking
0ffice supplies
phone bills
postage
software
stamps and pads
trash and disposal
water bill
call takers
employee incentives
salaries
federal state and local
taxes
Workman's comp
gasoline
ladders
radios
tools
trucks
truck decals
insurance
maintenance
tools
insurance
truck plates
warranty expenses
permits
inventory tax
r and d
Now that I have a clearer picture , I think its time to raise prices.0 -
don't forget
only so many billable hours in a year and time wasted justifying your rates to unappreciative people.0 -
Watch out !
Sharon,
Please review EVERY line of your contract. This sounds oh' to familier. I know a plumbing outfit that has the "EXTRA" game figured out. He goes in and bids a job for a price, halfway through EVERY job the EXTRA'S start. The job is often twice as much because of extras. And what's the worst thing about it, he starts talking about extras before he even begins the job. Very sad and to me very dishonest. However, the reality is that these people are out there...This does sound oh' to familiar...0 -
Question for Sharon
Hi Sharon,
As a contractor we struggle with the "Extra" thing all the time on HVAC projects as well as on the overall project. What we do on our HVAC projects is include everything on a project we do a very thorough analysis and presentation. On many projects i will have pages of info just for the HVAC. Many people appreciate this and hire us. we are frequently the highest estimate or close to it.
Conversly I have had many home owners hand me a 1 page quote from a competitor for thousands less and tell me "This guys doing the same thing as you for 5k$ Less" of course propsal is very vague and I'm sure there will be lots of extras with the other guy.
General contractors will be the same way . The folks I work with that all would have been included , but many times these G.C's won't get the job because if they include everything thier initial estimate can be 10's of thousands of dollars higher. it's just like our hire HVAC bid but multiplied by all the other subs.
So my question is this: Did you get G.C's that where lots more$$$ with very well written exstensive proposals?.If so did you reject them for a much cheaper less detailed proposal? and why?
Please understand there is no sarcasm in that question , just trying to know how people think in order to bettter fill the needs of the public. Because sometimes we all are tempted to act as your G.C. is as opposed to taking a higher ground when we see jobs slip away over that issue.
I can tell you that what does work very well is what's called "Construction Management" I wrote an article for an HVAC trade magazine on this issue last month.
Essentially it works like this . You contract to use a G.C based upon a price range not the total bill. They will give a price for the biulding shell. The G.C. will get a predertimed % of money on top of each subs bill for all work inside the shell . The G.C will bring in us as an HVAC sub along with all the other trades. I'll then sit down and go over all the options with you and you get to decide how much of your budget you want to spend on HVAC , if you want a Mercedes great!! If you want a Kia , ok, but you know you bought a Kia so if your not happy with it , it was your choice.
With a flat project price you never know how your money is being spent and plumbing , hvac , electrical are typically cut to the bone. The Construction management contract also eliminates most of the "Extras" like your G.C. apparently forgot as the subs tend to be really tuned into our own individual trades and what will be required.
One other question: Would you have Hired a fee based construction manegement G.C. If it had been offered to you?. If not why not?
Sorry to hear of your problem,it is typical.
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Sharon
We often bid jobs to contractors and supply specifications that they put in their contracts to the homeowner or which may be your case contractors bid a job then try to fit subs into their price structure, bad sign if so, since it means they may be going through subs.
On many occasions when a contractor fills in the subs after the fact some omissions become critical.
In our contract we state that "we will secure for demolition by other" this means we will make safe for removal for another party. Sometimes we are caught off guard that the G.C. did not allow for removal and needs it done right away so we have to do it to keep the job moving (the other big complaint besides why so much is why so long).
We bill the same rate no matter what since our cost of doing business is the same (plumbing, demo or walking the dog) cost the same per hour $140.00 for a two man crew times 16 = $2240.00.
Buyer beware.
Mitch S.0 -
Never were you so wrong Sharon..................................
We generally don't discuss price here...but off the record, you got off very cheap. Not to jump on you, but I do take issue with your comment: "....just to remove some junk..."
You mean that "junk" that gave you comfort for many years? That junk that could have been spread all over your home during the removal...ie, rubbed in to the rug, gouged in to the nice wood floors? That junk that day-after-day grinds down the men's discs and knee caps as they hump it up stairs and out of homes, so that when they hit 45 they can barely walk? That junk-company that has to pay insurance and workmans' comp out the wazoo? I if I were you...I'd pay that bill IN CASH and throw the boys something for doing such a nice job. Hopefully, they didn't see your post. Respectfully, Mad Dog
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More skill than you could ever imagine, Sharon.........
not to crush appendages and limbs and not damage peolpe's property on a DAILY BASIS! Ready for a career change???????? Hope you have a good back and knees,,,because they won't stay that way for long. How long do you think you would last, Sharon? Is THAT type of work for the lower caste of society? Very myopic view of reality. Mad Dog
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Perhaps Paul and Jim, but he's proabaly caught up in the
lowest bidder routine. Let's ask Sharon how many prices she got and how she came to choose these guys. We see it all the time, when we are VERY specific about what we are giving and the OTHERs aren't, but they get the job on price....USUALLY to the detriment of the Homeowner who gets WHACKED with extras at the end. That is how MOST contractors in these parts work and people are conditioned to it. Mad Dog
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and....................................................
If you think its expensive hiring a professional.......wait till you see what it costs you to hire and amauter......Mad Dog
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a mindboogling and real list
Thanks Jim...Mad Dog
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I agree in every way Bob
Its despicable and We spend TOO MUCH time having to compete with these companies. We have to explain why WE don't operate like that..."we'll whats wrong with you is the look you get...along with. we'll they have been in business a long time.......Mad Dog
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Whoa horsey
Easy there Mad Dog. You gotta remember folks have no idea what it costs to run a company. They get a salary they have no idea what benifits or overhead cost and they don't have a clue as to how what they do actually relates to the finished widget sold by their company.
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That was a great article!
And long overdue. Turning the builder into a partner is much better than how it is done now in most areas.0 -
Sorry...it hit a nerve
This is true, but most contractors will not explain that to them and "education" is not always the answer. You can explain your costs till you're blue in the face.....most folks care about one thing.....PRICE. Mad Dog
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a lot of pretending going on out there..........................
Contractor: I'll pretend that my quoted price includes everything needed to complete the job. When we run in to "extras" I'll make it up there...and they do.
Homeowner: I'll pretend that I'm really getting an apples-to-apples quote and the job will get done just as well AND look how much I saved NOT hiring THAT HIGH bidder.
WE've had some people come back over the years who did not hire us because we were "too high" They admitted that before they were done with the other contractor, they paid him more than 30%-40% OVER our original bid....AND the quality was not there. AHHHHH!! Human nature. Mad Dog
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Value
Our society is all about cheap. Walmart, Home Depot etc. Why would someone shop at the local shop and pay a bit more and get personal attention. That would be crazy. They perceve no value in that.
(This is not directed to the original creator of this post)
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YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I did go-off, but.....the silence IS!!!!!! deafening...idn't?????? POint made??? Mad Dog
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I hear ya loud and clear
I'm working on a project right now that I bid two years ago. The low bid guy charged EXTRA for all the stuff I had LISTED in my bid. Now he has been fired and I get to clean up the mess; by the hour; and I take my time because good work ain't cheap and it ain't fast either.0 -
You must remember
Removal of "junk" can be very expensive. and require equipment. Refrigerant recovery and disposal needs special tools. Environmental laws must be observed.Contaminated refrigerant oils must be removed from the compressor and properly disposed of. Was any asbestos in the system. safety gear, insurance, licences to work on it.
I understand that you would think "pick it up, throw it out" but there are laws, especially regarding the removal and disposal of refrigerants.
In canada, knowingly releasing refrigerant is a MINIMUM $10,000.00 for the individual, and $100,000.00 for the company.
I do not know the specifics, but that amount is more than acceptable IMHO.
Mitch0
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