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ProPress VS REMS VS tourch
SHOOK MFG. PRODUCTS INC.
Member Posts: 4
Shook Mfg. Products Inc. stocks over $100,000 of Rems German Pipe Working Tools for the trades. Shook is located in Akron, Ohio and serves most of the USA market. 800 354 9792
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Comments
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Pressing issues
Having problems getting Press fittings and/or the tools required for these systems.
A lot of hype in trade magazines lately about press fitting but its been my experience that the supply houses arent stocking these systems around here and just cant deliver product. When I decided it was time to take the plunge, I ordered one of the compact ProPress tool kits available from Viega/Ridgid. The product was unavailable. It would not be available for at first three then 6-8 weeks due to production problems at the manufacturer level. I bought the REMS Akku-Press kit with tongs to press up to 1 and it shipped next day. I like the REMS a lot. Seems much more sturdy than the others.
I now need to press 1 1/4 and presently, there are no jaws that size available from REMS in North America. As I understand it; the tongs Ridgid makes for their ProPress tool will work with the REMS. Viega will not warranty their fitting system if pressed with a REMS tool. Warranty issues aside, I feel extremely comfortable using the REMS tool on Viegas fittings.
Nonetheless, I cant get any 1 1/4 pressing tongs (jaws) for weeks over my deadline to finish this job from either of the Mfgs. Thankfully, I havent thrown away my torch just yet:-)
What tool and fitting systems do you guys prefer and why?
Wallace Radiant Design
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Sorry to hear that Gary.
We're on the North Shore and have very little trouble finding fittings. F.W.Webb, Salem Plumbing and Capco stock all kinds of fittings now, and rarely are we left searching or waiting for them. (high density teflon tape....we have to wait for, go figure)
Maybe you can rent or borrow the E-320 Pro Press tool from one of your suppliers? It is the battery operated kit that does from 1/2 to 2" fittings, with all the accutriments. A bit more combersome than the compact and the REMS tool, but with practice, I haven't had a place where it wouldn't work in the 3 years we've been using it. Good luck. Chris0 -
If I may chime in here... I think that pro press joints are ugly! I can't stand the crease in the joints. I also don't like the fact that you can't repair it. What's wrong with a beutiful sweated joint with a perfect 1/8 inch ring, and no drips? To be honest I really can't see the payoff either.0 -
Shark Bite
I have been using the shark Bite fittings with success. You can use the same fitting for copper, PEX, and CPVC (they have the same OD). No sweating, no crimping, no tools required except to cut the pipe just plug the pipe into the fitting and move on. I particulary like it where I switch from copper to PEX. The fittings are expensive. My bills look like I had a previous career setting the prices at gas stations but my customers agree they more than make up for the cost of the fittings with what they save on labor. I have done a couple of freezups lately. After I got the heating system back online I was asked to repair the domestic water. My customer have been very pleased with the speed of the repair.0 -
The reason...
Crimped fittings take 4 seconds to crimp. No leaks if done correctly. If the joint was missed, the crimp can be done with water pressure...no draindown required. Labor savings is 30-40% over the time it takes to prep and solder. For example, 2" tee takes 8-10min. to prepare and solder. Compared to 20 seconds, it's a no-brainer. No offence to perfectly soldered joints...they look good, but take too long and require fuel to join. They also get covered with insulation, if the job is done right, so the "cosmetic" becomes less important.
There are other major benefits: no fire risk or flux hazards; greatly reduced gas costs (we still solder 0ne out of 50 joints due to dimension issues) The payoff is certainly the labor savings. Even with the increased fitting cost, the speed and reliability of the pressfitting is simply amazing. The price of the fittings will become more competitive as other manufacturers take on the lines.
Gary, I've been told that the new REMS distributor is based in Chicago. To get a set of 11/4" tongs, call Chris Rorke at Blueline Supply in Jackson Hole, WY. He probably has a set in stock. I buy many oil/tool/Oventrop specialties from Chris. He's a Kiwi mechanical engineer, and also a combustion/oil genius.
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I keep adding to my REM tong collection
I just added the Wirsbo MultiPress tongs to my box. Which came in a REMS box
I'd be glad to lend my 1-1/4" if you are in a real bind.
Did you try the REMS dealer in Canada? www.rnrtools.com They list about 2000 REMS parts on their site.
hot rod
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mupro
I bought my rems tongs 1/2" up to 2".
Call or visit mupro,they'll give you a dealer number and address.
I had my tongs in three days.0 -
can
someone tell me what the advantage of the ProPress is over Nvents push fittings? Availibilty? Cool tool? Stronger?
Inquiring minds want to know!0 -
Crimp vs slip fit
I like the fact that the crimp fittings are a true mechanical joint. Much more solid than a slip fit type connection. The pipe and fitting are actually swedged together with a ProPress type connection. Look at one close, you'll see that the pipe and fitting actually end up in a hex shape that isn't ever going anywhere.0 -
But...
and there's a butt in every crowd, ain't there?
I have a guy that doesn't like to use the ProPress because he can't guarantee a perfectly flat pipe. It CAN be made straight, but requires substantial anchoring and fussing. I've often wondered to myself what the long term (thinking 50 years here) affect will be upon the semi loose copper to copper fit. Will it degrade?
Bob Bona. Now that's a name you don't see around here much:-) How'ya doin' Robert. Good to see you around again.
ME0 -
Steve,
I have to expound on your theory here. I've had few failures with the propress system, so far....The ones I've found the most are unpressed (pre green dot specs) and/or caused by "operator error".
However...I will pass on to the board the first , I've seen "freeze up" scenerio. I installed a H.S.Tarm wood/oil combination unit in a greenhouse last spring. It is outfitted with a 360 gallon buffer tank, with 3 coils inside,2 for the heating and 1for the hot water piping.
The first cold spell of the year took its toll on the vegatables being grown in the greehouse, as we are only using it for bed heating, but the one coil feeding the hot water for the watering of beds froze at the spigot. With a propress ST.90° just pulling apart from the freeze expansion. No burst pipe, no harm , no foul...it just pushed itself out of the way. I hope this to be a rare occurance.
The repair was easy and it hasn't happened since. A few well placed pieces of 2" styrofoam at the corner of the "catching/blocking wall" have worked so far.
It definately works well, but there are the same issues that show themselves with soldered joints...hopefully in the way I found this one is, or will be the norm. No surprises please! Chris0 -
it's the O ring
longevity that concerns ne. Although it looks like the fitting could be silver soldered if necessary.
For now all mine are exposed fittings in boiler rooms
hot rod
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Pressing on;
Although Im told the aircraft industry has been using the press fitting system for a while, Im a bit concerned about burrying these type of fittings where they could cause a possible dizaster should they ever fail. Id like to press the fittings for a snow & ice melt job Im working on but the molicules of a glycol/anti-freeze system are so very small. Youve just got to wonder if theyll stand the test of time. Noone wants to be remembered as The guy that put in all those faulty fittings in.
Ive heard that there is a Hold Harmless and Indemnification Agreement that states you can use the REMS tool on Viegas fittings. The ViegansJ tell me that they dont recommend the use of REMS for pressing their fittings. Further, they claim; they WILL NOT stand behind their warranty if not done with Ridgids ProPress system. Apparently their are identification marks on a properly compressed fitting using Ridgids system. I wonder what would happen if you were to use Ridgids tongs with the REMS press tool? Could it be determined what power tool was used by the fitting? Would one be a better fit than the other?
One of the Reps told me; Viega makes absolutely no money on the sale of Ridgid Pro Press tools and their contract with Ridgid is almost up. Perhaps well be seeing another tool Mfg. step in. Im thinking it could even wind up being REMS, but I wonder if there could be a conflict of interest with Upanor.
I suppose time will tell. For now Ill be keeping most of my press fittings where they can be watched.
Wallace Radiant Design
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Pressing on:
Although I understand the aircraft industry has been using the press fitting system for a while, Im a bit concerned about burrying these type of fittings where they could cause a possible dizaster should they ever fail. Id like to press the fittings for a snow & ice melt job Im working on but the molicules of a glycol/anti-freeze system are so very small. Youve just got to wonder if theyll stand the test of time. Noone wants to be remembered as The guy that put in all those faulty fittings in.
Ive heard that there is a Hold Harmless and Indemnification Agreement that states you can use the REMS tool on Viegas fittings. The Viegans tell me that they dont recommend the use of the REMS for pressing their fittings. Further, they claim; they WILL NOT stand behind their warranty if not done with Ridgids ProPress system. Apparently their are identification marks on a properly compressed fitting using Ridgids system. I wonder what would happen if you were to use Ridgids tongs with the REMS press tool? Could it be determined what power tool was used by examination of a fitting? Would one be a better fit than the other?
One of the Reps told me; Viegas contract with Ridgid is almost up. Perhaps well be seeing another tool Mfg. step in. Im thinking it could even wind up being REMS, but I wonder if there would be conflict of interest with Upanor.
I suppose time will tell. For now Ill be keeping most of my press fittings where they can be watched.
Wallace Radiant Design
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hi Mark
> and there's a butt in every crowd, ain't there?
> I have a guy that doesn't like to use the
> ProPress because he can't guarantee a perfectly
> flat pipe. It CAN be made straight, but requires
> substantial anchoring and fussing. I've often
> wondered to myself what the long term (thinking
> 50 years here) affect will be upon the semi loose
> copper to copper fit. Will it degrade?
>
> Bob
> Bona. Now that's a name you don't see around here
> much:-) How'ya doin' Robert. Good to see you
> around again.
>
> ME
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hi Mark
> and there's a butt in every crowd, ain't there?
> I have a guy that doesn't like to use the
> ProPress because he can't guarantee a perfectly
> flat pipe. It CAN be made straight, but requires
> substantial anchoring and fussing. I've often
> wondered to myself what the long term (thinking
> 50 years here) affect will be upon the semi loose
> copper to copper fit. Will it degrade?
>
> Bob
> Bona. Now that's a name you don't see around here
> much:-) How'ya doin' Robert. Good to see you
> around again.
>
> ME
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Hi Mark
I've been keeping a pretty low profile for the last few years..plate full with as of now a 2 year old and a three year old..lifes good! You guys are like old friends to me now..
I have been watching the proPress situation, and been hedging on investing in the tool. My work involves a lot of heavy renovation, with boiler upgrades..tight places the tool may not fit. This past summer, went to Mini Camp 2, and am intrigued by the MultiCor crimp fittings. This started to lean me toward actually buying a tool..the qustion was do I buy one for MultiCor, and another for maybe future Propress? The boys in MN couldn't tell me if jaws were interchangeable. I know now REMS has that base covered.
Same time, my local supplier started to carry InVent. (CT here) Seemed like a no brainer to me over ProPress. Both rely on a synthetic sort of seal. PP crimps the fitting end to keep the thing from pulling out, IV uses stainless one way fingers. I'm sure both need more attention to support to keep the pipe true in the fitting-if the O rings get too much pressure on on side , and not enough on the other...no hanging x tanks off these puppys!
Gotta love slipping a ball valve on a pipe that just won't stop dripping water!
HR hearing ya about burying these fittings. The ones I've done are exposed
Any other reasons why PP might be better than IV? Open-minded here!0 -
I'm
going to look at one closer if I ever come across one, Steve. DIdin't realize it forms a hex shape..from pics it looks like a few crimps, but not all the way around. PP is slowly catching on here in traditional CT. I gotta seek out a rep.0 -
I'd imagine
that plumbers in 1945 said the same thing when introduced to sweat copper fittings and only had familiarity with threading brass or steel pipe...or rolling lead joints.
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Multi-Cor
Bob, my 2 cents here.
I bought the hand press for 1/2 & 5/8 MC and it's great !
We do bbd jobs with it and it beats copper for time and flow, and pex for looks. The press hasn't let us down yet. If a big enough job for larger diameter MC came along, I'd buy a powered press tomorrow.0 -
I've heard also
that Ridgid won't be making the tools for Viega past '06.
I am considering making the plunge also. I can see the benefits. BUT, I have a hard enough time getting all the sweat fittings that I need now. And sweat fittings are something that EVERYONE uses. In my comparatively small-town area, I foresee a terrible pain trying to special order everything I would need ahead of time. The wholesaler told me if I buy the tool they will stock the fittings. They don't even stock all the Wirsbo or Viega Pro-pex, ssc or crimp fittings that I need now- just the more common ones. I guess if I lived in a metropolis I'd have more stock to choose from. Oh well,I've yet to own a REMS tool, but would like to. Kevin0 -
rems distributer
i bought the rems power press e with the 1 and 1/2 mlti cor press heads from shook mfg in ohio(1 800 354 9792) it took a while to get but just used them and they work great . i ran 1 mc as s/r to three manifolds using mc 90,coulpling/and copper to mc adapters in about 6 hours. I dont think there is a rems distributor in chicago just shook and rnr in canada.now need the 5/8 mc think i can just order from wirsbo0 -
Try EBAY sometimes they come up.
Don
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Could I use a Ridgid tong and press Viega Ftgs. with a REMS?
The answer is YES.
No one wants to come out and say it but, if you do the leg work; you will find that it's just fine to press Ridgid tongs with a REMS press tools. It all works the same.
OOOOHHHH!!! The beaurocracy!!!
Read all the materials from both the Mfgs .
I also heard through the grapevine: Ridgid/Viega will aparently be in bed for another 5 years with the Pro-Press tools. Perhaps they can actually deliver the tools to the contractors on time from now on.
Wallace Radiant Design
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Paul,
You use the REMS press system with Viega fittings. How do you feel about burrying these fittings in walls/ceilings?
Wallace Radiant Design
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Steve,
The hex shaped result of a pressed fitting look really funky. The looks are the same on the REMS and the Ridgid. I'm not so much concerned with the look as I am with the dissention between REMS & Viega. Strange to say the least.
Wallace Radiant Design
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oops double post
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Rems
I would follow the manufactures recommendations on the installation of the fittings. If you press with A Ridge tool. I would use the fittings in any concealed location.
Why not just purchase a Riged E-320 with the full jaw set? Then you wont need to use a product that the manufacture does not recommend.
I have used this product since it came to the USA no failed fittings yet.
Call Capco if you need fittings.
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No Problemo
Using the Rems tool. The Rems tongs and the Ridgid tongs are interchangeable for the Propress copper. I've buried the fittings and can forget about them. These fittings have been in use for over 20 years in Europe. OY! Stop fressing!! Start Pressing....(Give me a squeeze....!!)
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Just to let you guy's that don't know the multipress heads from Wirsbo(made by rems) will work in the ridgid propress tool so you dont have to buy two tools.
S Davis
Apex Radiant Heating0 -
ISH in Germany
convinced me that pressing fittings was in our future. You couldn't turn around without running into pressed fittings and valves in the plumbing and/or heating areas. Med gas too!
Having a local source for fittings and valves is vitally important to the success of utilizing one of these tools. If not, it's like having a car with no gas! Watch the pricing too as we discovered our initial supplier was way out of line. Graingers turned out to be a good source too and will have the fittings by 7:30 AM next morning if we call in the order by 4:45 PM the day prior.
We've used our ProPress hard and it's been a great labor saver. It's also been an interesting sales tool! A crisis evolved in a hotel plumbing system within sight of a commercial job site where we're using the PP & the maint man ran over (saw our trucks) asking for rapid help.
In the middle of their commercial water heater array, they had a serious leak and no valves (don't you just love that!) to isolate the offending joint. He thought we'd have to drain the building & inconvienence the guests. Did it on the fly with 2" PP valves & fittings we had on our job site. Gained a new customer too(G). He said he's been seeing the fittings and tool in mags he gets, but first he'd seen anyone actually use one. Wants us to repipe his hot water recirc (400+ feet).
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A few posts down
I posted a copy of the suitability documant. Keep a copy for future issues.
hot rod
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rems propress multicor fittings
a few examples of 1" mc press fittings on a recent job w/ a prestige and smart 800 -
ProPress
Here is one of our ProPress jobs.
S Davis
Apex Radiant Heating0 -
E-320
I purchased the Ridgid E-320 a while back, I love it, mainly use it on my heating installs but find myself using it on hot water heater replacements and repairs on domestic water as well.I try and stock alot of fittings but it can become costly, Purchased it at a place in NYC (Colonial Hardware) they get me the fittings I need next day for the most part. Only had one problem so far, when I rushed, didn't mark the fitting and pressed, leaked like a bi#*$, cut it out and wont make that mistake again. without a doubt saves a tremendous amount of time, big time on the larger fittings, this is an 1 1/2" P/S that went together very nicely, it's even pretty sraight.
Yea Pro Press,
Still don't understand what the green dot(sc fittings) is on the newer Viega fittings or what the difference is.
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green dot
They have found that in certina cases non-pressed fittings has been presurized without leaking. For a while. THen they make a mess. The idea is that the green dot fittings will leak at someting like 25 PSI, so you know what you didn't press.
Now IMO it's Viega's wayof trying to hold onto the press fitting market with people like Nibco coming out with compatible products.
jerry
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For the fun of it
ProPress
The smart connect system is a proven technology. Next time you buy a fitting pull the EDPM seal out of it and look under. You will see a small indentation. Do you think they went t through the process of re tooling all of the equipment just for the fun of it? A leak will occur between ½ to 85 Psi. Dont just believe me test it.
Call Viega or go on there web site I will bet they will do an onsite demmo. I have seen it!0 -
Green dot (SE)
Green is for water, yellow dot is for gas.0 -
FYI
A Rems Akku-Press, driving Ridgid jaws, presses Nibco fittings just fine.
Viega better get their junk in a pile because the market isn't going to wait around for them very long.
Someone, somwhere sitting in an office at Viega or Ridge will feel their hair sand straight up when they read that. (G)0 -
I think youre mistaken Bob.
Upanor/Wirsbo's system now known as Upanor is for Upanor pipe & fittings only. Water and hydronic pipe. REMS makes a tool for Upanor to expand their Q&E fittings. This has Absolutely nothing to do with ProPress or the pressing of fittings at all. Different tool all togeather.
Wallace Radiant Design
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