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Whats your favorite load calc software and why?
Comments
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bob and comso
Both of you guys are soooo right and there's oughta to be a different thread on this ..... My blood is boiling from the experinces I had with so called plumbing inspectors, no matter what mistakes they make, no fines for them and they still have the job...0 -
my .02¢
Having been on the wholesale side of the counter for 17 years, I totally agree with Supply House Rick. I was asked repeatedly to provide my services for design and sales for those who couldn't or chose not to. I knew the contractors who could be trusted and those who would attempt to shop me out. Ultimately, the shoppers would just get a fax cover letter with lump sum pricing. No material list, no line item pricing. In essence, I was telling them, here are the services and prices I am willing to provide. Upon receipt of purchase order (signed) I would get them the pertinent information for zoning, loops, manifolds, etc. It worked very well for me as an All or nothing service.
Now that I am a contractor, I structure my proposals (no bids given) the same way. My proposals clearly define what is included, not included and so on. Upon signed contract, full disclosure is given if requested, but lets face it. The HOs very seldom need ALL of the information given. Starting from the beginning, I DO THE HEAT-LOSS. Its my job, and I only (typically) trust myself to do AN ACCURATE heatloss. I have the necessary skills to provide the service I need. If I didnt .next paragraph please.
Having met quite a few of you, I will say there are some I would trust to do a heatloss for me. Hotrod, NRT.Rob, Gary Wallace, Supply House Rick, to name a few. There is a common thread on this thread in that an accurate heat loss must be done from the outset. How, who, where, and for how much are all relevant questions. They all must be answered individually for you and the success of your own business. Now lets talk about those who dont feel it necessary to do a heat-loss . Enough said there I think.
Regards,
PR
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Al, here is your original post
Date: May 20, 2006 02:53 PM
Author: Al Letellier
Subject: heat software
To be perfectly honest, it's the one my supplier uses, I'm simply way to busy to do the calcs myself, as much as I would like to. This also gives you some backup is something doesn't go right. Wrightsoft does do a nice job, though
___________________________________________________________
***How else am I supposed to interpret this?
Some "Yahoo" says you need someone to blame? No, you did, yes sir you did. You know the "if it's not right" line above.
Wouldn't it be right if you did the calculations yourself? You know, with the 40 years experience, instead of pushing off on somebody with much less. Starting to make sense now isn't.
Maybe Wrightsoft is still in the box? Don't you think your supplier thinks the same thing?
Sincerely,
Yahoo0 -
Gary Gary Gary
Gary our agenda is to provide items we sell based on our design at a fair competitive price. If you want to design system, have at it, that's a supplier's agenda. Oh, and we would lose every job if we were out of touch with reality now wouldn't we Gary?
Gary, isn't there a manufacturer for you to witch hunt instead of poor lowly suppliers? I would think this sort of thing would be way below your stature. I am sure you do all your own calculations and have the most amazing company in the world. I wish continued amazing success, it must be lonely at the top.
Please re-read the basis of the thread, it was the have someone to blame that got me going, not Al personally, I am sure he is a great mechanic, fine man etc. Just don't look for scapegoats in manufacturing & suppliers. THAT'S ALL THIS ABOUT GARY...
Way out of touch with reality Rick0 -
wow, rick is right and hilarious
gary and al, i know you must be mad, yer the only ones here who are. i would back off he seems really good at this and your wrong. rick should be a hvac comedian. he's right and you guys have said the wrong things about suppliers they are there to help you. home depot is allways willin to help you if you can wait in line my 2 cents Bob0 -
Some thoughts from a wholesaler
Being on the wholesale side and doing most of our design work I can understand both Rick and Al's points of view. The problem I run into more often than not is this. I will do a heat loss for a customer(licensed heating pro's only). Most of the time I can not get all the info I need. So I request the info from them and they get back to me. (This request for more info seems to really tick some guys off) Then once I do the heat loss, I will quote the boiler. More times than not if I quote a 75k net but/hr boiler the customer will come back with " Give me the 100K just in case" I try to explain the idea of matching the required load and I get grief. So I don't argue anymore. I know I should but it just gets frustrating.
Another popular scenario is doing a heat loss from a blue print and spending a great deal of time on a really large house. Quote the customer, he gets the job and we are off and running. Visit the job with the customer to help him w/ pipe sizing, manifold locations, etc. The construction never matches the blueprint. Take measurements make adjustments and re-quote. I guess my point is, as a wholesaler I would rather the contractor do his own design. Not that I don't enjoy doing it because it's one of the most interesting parts of my job. I also put dislaimers on all design or heat losses.(These are recomendations and the installer is responsible for checking all calculations and design work)
I try not to do this for customers I don't trust. They will steal your design and shop it around. Sometimes we just quote and when they give us the order we give them a material list.
Thanks for letting me ramble.
Don0 -
A \"New York state of mind\". Poor Heat 411
Too many concepts from too many regional area's. Supply House Rick is obviously an elitist("We tend to cater to the contractors who know what they are doing")(Mark, Daren,Singh). This is a big web site, covering a large divergence of market area's and "local mindsets". Rick has been focused on( as well as Al and Gary) way too much in this thread; and off topic, from Heat 411's original inquiry.
I use Slant Fin HE2, HDS v.1.13, H2K Hot 2000 v.9.33, Rhvac MJ8 v.8.01.151, Ipex Radiant, Ultra Calc, Radiant Wizard(Viega), Flat Plate Select, Coil company, Taco HSS Solutions,and Vanguard Radiant 2005, among other cad programs. All are very good for the intended purpose. But, GIGO!
Rick(being of a New York State of Mind) doesn't know how to interpret Al's statement. Rick bases Al's statement on Rick's philosophy and experience in Rick's market area and his company's philosophy. Rick DOES NOT HAVE A CORNER ON THE WHOLESALE DISTRIBUTION MARKETING PHILOSOPHY FOR THE WORLD! Just his prejudicial evaluation of his customers. (read: Mark, Daren, & Singh)
I do not believe Al strategises to blame a wholesaler for a system design gone bad. I believe he trusts who he uses for design's. I believe he works with his supplier for solutions for those errant jobs. I trust he looks over the Supplier's design and material list, and asks questions as needed.
Pricing structure is a Supply House's prerogative. Rick suggested many variances to this. Company policy or Rick's?(read: Mark, Daren, Singh). The New York "state of mind" may NOT work in Maine.
There are some other issues brought up in this thread which are more complicated than I have time or insight to address, but disturbing.
I think Don Robertson gave some very interesting and real valid points to the challenges faced by Supply House designers.
As far as Heat 411's initial inquiry, there is NO SOFTWARE PROGRAM that can compensate for the absence of fundamental concept understanding. They all are based on sound engineering principle's and the appropriate algorithm,s. Some are air based, and some are radiant based.
Jed0 -
How ya' doin Jed??? I AM MARK.
So what is your point?
Mark H
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Hey Jed
My name is spelled DARIN. Perhaps attention to detail is not in your companys philosophy (along with your lack of heatloss software).
Darin0 -
What A Bizarre Thread
As an artist I expect a supplier to provide what I need to produce my design.
As media changes, I greatly appreciate updates from my suppliers.
Even more I appreciate suppliers' considered advice based on feedback from those who asked them for their recommendations or designs.
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software
I like Watts Radiant software for heatloss. supply House Rick has a very tough postion working as a wholesaler, he not only has to take,secure,follow up and re order materials, he is also asked to do heatlosses on buildings. HELLO !! The man can only give a heatloss off of information he is given, if it's bad heatloss, maybe the info is suspect. Mr. Hunt and Mr. Cook vouch for Rick, that is all I need to know.0 -
Jed ***Very Important
New York State of Mind? Who are you Billy Joel? I have one question for you...
HUH?
Sincerley,
OK everybody with your best Sinatra voice
New York, New York da da da da da da0 -
I don't know nothin'
I don't know what I'm doing , Rick.
I just pretend. :-)
But I do know there is always room in my head for more knowledge.
As you know, heat loss, and design I do, you supply what I want.
I may, and have, double checked with my supplier to make sure I did not overlook something, and that I think is a mutual benefit for all involved, without using up too much of anyones time.
And should I ever do a 14,000 sq.' mcmansion or a commercial building. I would probably consult with an engineer. Let them run the numbers, and put their stamp on it, and take the responsibility. Right!
As for software, I use ADS, and just got wrightsoft and can't wait to play with that . Software has always been a problem for me since I only buy quality computers (that would be MAC) and I have to run an emulated PC program to run my design software, so it can be less than optimal at times.
So hint , hint software guys, there is a niche market for MAC only HVAC software.
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Rick- You? An Elitist??
I had to laugh at Jed/Dr. Phil on that one...
The notion of selling to competent people: If that makes you elitist what does that say about HD and Orange Aprons?
Have a fantastic day-
Brad0 -
Another interesting
thread.
When people stuck to the original question there were good responses.
When people got personal and there were points and counterpoints made some had barbs attached and they seemed to hit home and in some cases hurt. But then, isn't that what barbs do?
What a great place this WALL is.
Jack0 -
Now Who You Jivin' With that Cosmik Debris?
It was all based on having someone to blame if it's wrong, not we shouldn't do heat loss for our beloved customer base. Not once did I question brother Al's workmanship, integrity, reputation or if he like babies, puppies, enjoys moonlit walks on the rugged beaches on Maine (is there a Maine state of mind?)
*This is all based on not doing your own calculations and blaming those who do, you know if something isn't right. In fact if you don't do it yourself you only have YOURSELF to blame*
In fact let's move on - Who do you think will win American Idol, I hope it's Taylor (it's that whole Soul Patrol thing)I think the phone lines are still open...
Peace,
Rick0 -
moving on
As you see the agenda as a wholesaler is to provide items they sell based on their design. The very nature of this type of design is typically flawed because one supplier may or may not offer the most appropriate equipment. I cant buy all the major components we specify from just one supplier due to manufactures exclusivity agreements. I tend to mix & match materials from two or more accounts because no one supplier has everything I require. For that reason alone I wont use supply house designs. If I did, Id be stuck buying all materials from them.
Since I find the counters increasingly understaffed, I try to order as much as I can through the inter-channel and simply have it delivered. For the other, I call on my outside salesman. I can do all of this without superfluous inside salesmen. If online ordering would be made more user (contractor) friendly, supply house pricing might be even more competitive.
I did read Al's post and truly think that Rick has misinterpreted his statement. I just dont find anything within his wording about "someone to fall back on (blame) in the post. He said: gives you some backup. Perhaps I am missing this or something was edited but then Rick goes on to diverge the thread and chastise those who simply conflict with his opinions. I find neither Al nor myself worthy of this type of disdain.
I do NOT prefer doing my own design work. I really hate all that tedious data processing stuff and wouldnt mind at all having it done by one of my suppliers. Perhaps I just havent found the right supply house yet.
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I'm hopin'.......
......it's Taylor. Not your typical pop star weenie. Besides, I have an affinity for the silver hair!
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Taylor
He's dreamy isn't he?
Oh, and the thought I only sell to a select group, you're right! I among many other things am an Outside Salesperson with 25 core accounts and several others that have my complete and undivided attention. Just ask the Vanguard of the Elite, they are on the wall. How elitist of me. Our elitist counter people and our elitist inside salespeople hand the other customers.
Now,where were we? oh yeah... I cracked the Da Vinci Code, no no that's not it...American Idol, no we covered that, oh yeah...What's the New York State of Mind? Do other states have this or are we an elitist? What's your thetan level?
Peace, Love & Woodstock (that is in New York)
Supply House Garcia
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rick 1 gary 0
gary you really seems to have a severe inferiority complex you did miss the point and the others here didn't my supplier has everything i need to do my job and yep i do my own design and layout its over rick and everybody else gets it sorry you dont0 -
Score.
Bob. I didn't know someone was keeping score. Clearly both sides of the fence have some valid points. The message seems to be that it's more professional to do your own. Why the personal attacks?0 -
Because
rick is way too funny and gary is just plain mean i would rather work for someone like rick than that clearly unhappy gary guy loosen up my man and have fun because everybody else is. life is too short you get called out on something take it and move on and ricks point was misunderstood by al and gary do your own job or split the job with the supply guy who helped you phil who are you and why you hiding your email0 -
It don't matter who I am Bob. Who are you? I don't see that you have been around on this site for very long.
I have to wonder how Supply House Rick finds the time to post durring bussiness hours. Rick does have a point but it's just not the right thing to call anyone out for what was clearly a misunderstanding. I urge you to go back and read the exact wording in Al's post. Does he deserve to get slammed the way he has been?
I really don't get the humor in any of this. What's funny about what Rick said anyway? He's slamming contractors who pay for this site through their find a pro ads. Is this good for the credability of the paying contractors? Does it look good in the public eye?0 -
Phil
I pay the cost to be the boss. Does your boss know you are online? I am not slamming contractors! As you can tell by the support I am receiving on this post, me and the professionals get along just fine.
Just don't like being a Scapegoat for the "just in case you have someone to fall back on" crowd.
I make a living taking care of contractors and believe it or not I had 4 sets of plans on my desk when I got in today. They are all done. No complaints whatsoever.
It's called assumed design with a lot of room for change. Not a contract where you can take me to court "you know, if it's not right" How busy are you to need a scapegoat errrr Supplier to do your plans?
That's all this was ever about, then it became the proverbial battle of wits, in which some people came in unarmed...
Now how about American Idol Phil, who did you vote for?
Rick0 -
This whole thing!??
I must be rather gullible in life in general. I was a contractor for 26 years before my knees fell apart and I needed to change gears. I've always prided myself in doing the "proper" job, my own calcs, and a lot of pride and knowledge into every job I've done. well now I've joined "the dark side" and am working for a distributor. I really enjoy the work and like sharing my years of experience(spelled mistakes) with anyone coming in my door. I can sell them whatever they want, but its not really my main objective. I just think if I can share what I know,(including my calcs!) and it helps the customer to install a better job, who loses?! maybe I am too trusting in people, but I'll stick to my guns and help any new heating co. I can. Its the only way the weak ones get stronger.0 -
with all these
With all these rants, opinions, etc.. Not one mention about the IBR heat loss programs? Not used anymore by u professials?0 -
huh?????
reread the post and then be man enough to put in your return e-mail address so I can straighten you out......I don't need the supply house to do my job, I chose to use them to make more efficient use of my time and declining energy. I have 3 heat loss programs in my computer and use them when I CHOISE to use my time that way. Rich may be right in some cases, but he'd dead wrong in this one. It's opinionated loud mouthed "judges" like him that give this industry a bad name, and it's guys like me that work hard every day to do the job right. It's me that stands behind my work 100%. we've been in business a long time, have never had a problem with a customer we couldn't resolve and I've NEVER blamed anyone but me when something does go wrong.....you and rich deserve each other. As for me, I'm going to a hockey game to put you fools out of my mind.
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This is getting ridiculous
who is Phil, who is Bob? I haven't checked to see if they have email addresses or not.
The wall is here for us to express our opinions, tell each other our sorrows, and share in our accomplishments. Yes I have strong opinions, and am not afraid to express them. However I am not here to single someone out and act like a fool. By bickering I don't mean the discussion raging between Rick, and Al. Al has a right to defend the way he runs his business, and even though some of us disagree I find it unproductive for alleged unknown third parties to add fuel to the fire.
I happen to agree with Rick here as far as contractors should do there own calcs. I can however respect Al's right to his opinion. Rick is naturally pissed because of a comment. I am sure he has been on the smelly end of a stick because of guys who use the supply house as a scapegoat, and even though AL may not have meant to say that he would use his supply house as such and he may have meant something else this should teach all of us that we have to be careful what we write. Because I know that at times in the past I have written something down, read it over and had to edit so as to better describe my point.
If you have an opinion share it, if you find that someone disagrees with you then prove your point.
Personally what gets me ticked off is the sometimes schoolyard antics I see with some of my peers both here and out on the job. Lets remember that there are potential customers reading these posts, and act like professionals.
Cosmo Valavanis0 -
I use
WrightSoft and Wirsbo ADS.
Mark H
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Rick, here is your post of May 23, 2006 01:12 Pm
Date: May 20, 2006 02:53 PM Author: Al Letellier Subject: heat software
To be perfectly honest, it's the one my supplier uses, I'm simply way to busy to do the calcs myself, as much as I would like to. This also gives you some backup is something doesn't go right. Wrightsoft does do a nice job, though ___________________________________________________________
***How else am I supposed to interpret this?
Some "Yahoo" says you need someone to blame? No, you did, yes sir you did. You know the "if it's not right" line above.
Wouldn't it be right if you did the calculations yourself? You know, with the 40 years experience, instead of pushing off on somebody with much less. Starting to make sense now isn't.
Maybe Wrightsoft is still in the box? Don't you think your supplier thinks the same thing?
Sincerely, Yahoo
___________________________________________________________
<***How else am I supposed to interpret this?>
YOU'RE NOT! You're not, you salesman you. Ever heard of "probing"?
Maybe you're "25 core customers" with 40 years of experience could and should, but that's in your mind.
NO, he didn't! That's YOU'RE lack of probing!
You said in another post that you have 30%(prox) of your customer base that need calcs and dwgs. Is that 30% of your "25 core customers", or 30% of your branch customers?
What if those numbers were reversed, and increase the spread by another 10-15%? How many counter people do you have to accomodate that work load? Alas, how many supply houses even have counter people capable of that? You must have a very "elite" crew, and, a VERY ELITE customer base. You must be the elitist supply house in the entire country.
Heck, if I'm not one of your totally capabale customers, but I'm a good, reputable heating guy, am I going to get the "blow off" you implied? You definately implied that your customers were competent or "fly by night guys". Wow.
What a spread.
What, you don't know what you're doing(that's that play on words your so good at)? 40 years ago plumbers, by and large, used the finger method. You know, the old dog and new tricks routine. So, are you going to blow him off to one of your "elite" counter people, who, after all, know this heat loss stuff cold? Gee, what a utopian experience at a supply house. Even the counter people know how to design a heating system(maybe some do).
Enough for now, I'm just
Jed/Dr. Phil0 -
How easy do you think it is to stay on top of current technology?
Teknet 4 came out last year, for example. We're still learning. We'll still be learning about it six months from now. At the same time, we're learning the vision controls, viessman methodology, checking out new boilers and doing a slew of things that your average contractor and small shop would NEVER have the time to do, and we design more projects a year than any average contractor sees probably in half of his or her entire career.
We can do that because we don't have to do the bazillions of man hours needed to actually install this stuff. Granted, there are things that installing it teaches you that we don't learn first hand, and some contractors are really good at design, no problem. But our clients give us feedback and we adjust our methodology and then all of our clients after that can benefit from one installer's first hand experience, before having to make the mistake themselves the first time. That's pretty cool, eh?
Personally, I think the average contractor would be CRAZY to do all their own design and calculations. It's nearly impossible for us, who do nothing except design systems and send parts out the door, to really stay current. You hear people complain about those "slow to adopt contractors" all the time; why do you think it is that way? Do you really think contractors are stupid? They aren't stupid. They are BUSY ALREADY.
I think a contractor needs to be ABLE to do their own design and calculations. Most definitely, no arguement, absolutely 100% must be able to do the work.
However, as an admittedly biased person, I think it's NUTS if they actually do for every job, unless their suppliers just are not keeping up with things (and to be fair.. most of them don't either). They need to make sure whatever design they end up with is appropriate of course, just like the designer/supplier needs to also make sure of that, and in that case.. two heads are better than one.
Of course, if you think all contractors should do their own design, you should be prepared for them to tack a good 20-40 hours (at that hourly rate, of course) onto the job to do that. Or, someone like me can do it for much less because it comes out of the part margin. That's how we earn it. The installer earns his money, why shouldn't we have to earn ours?
The reality is, a good supplier/design team can really be a big help to a contractor. Those of us in this stage of the process get to see a volume of products and systems that no contractor ever will. There is a value in that, and personally I think a smart contractor takes advantage of that.
And if something goes wrong, having another set of eyes on the project sure doesn't hurt either.0 -
NRT.Rob
Interesting perspective I suppose. Having moved from the wholesale end to the other side of the counter, I still do a heat-loss for ALL of my jobs. How else can I correctly size the boiler, account for zoning...blah,blah,blah. I sleep really well knowing that I will not have an oversized or undersized boiler.
Couldn't agree more with you about the TN4 equipment. I think I will have to make that an "Optional Control Package". I have sold 4 TN4 jobs and hope to sell more, but my market is not a mature radiant market like the Northeast, so I really try to get the job with basic outdoor reset and give options of DHW, zoning, and upgrades. I would love to know how you construct your proposals. Maybe another thread is in order.
Regards,
PR
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Well, I am obviously incredibly biased in this matter
So it may be less 'interesting" and more "slanted" heh.. what can you do.
A load calc is one thing. That's a couple hours or so. I probably overstated design time too if you're just doing paper sketches by hand and checking possible problem areas instead of calculating everything to the second decimal point. So there's the bias eh?
But the basic idea I'm trying to put out there is that the perspective is different from different places in the chain, and that those differences in perspective, when working together, can do some good things.0 -
Good Point
I would have absolutely no problem handing over the heat loss work to someone else, like an engineering firm. My thing is though, that the customer would know up front. Situations that come to mind would be large commercial buildings that I do not have much experience with calculating not only building heat loss/gain, but also to consider how the number of people, electrical lighting, and machinery may effect the equation. The customer would know right off the bat that X Engineering will be assisting me with the design.
As with having too much going on to have time to do the heat loss/gain calcs myself I guess that is why I am often up until 1-3 in the morning getting paperwork done. Not fun, and I can see why guys do not have time. I just make the time, because I am just that much of a pain in my own butt. I have always found it hard to trust anyone else doing it, even when I have help on big stuff I sit down and go through the calcs to make sure I agree.
Those of you using Wrightsoft, have any of you tried using a scanning pen that can scan to your draw program right off the blueprint? Or have any of you taken your blueprint to get it digitally scanned?
My biggest time investment is just drawing some of these 12,000 sq ft homes I get involved with once in a while. Some of the big ones take me a while because of all the crazy turrets, and wingdings these building floor plans have!!!!
Cosmo Valavanis0 -
NRT.Rob
Well said. My belief is just that, it should be a joint venture between supply house and contractor. No contractor should assume that any supplier/designer could or would read his mind. There are too many variables, such as simple design questions that each party brings to the dance. Let's face it we are all in this together and a design should be a JOINT venture and never a blame game. It takes both parties to make it work properly.
Wouldn't a thread like this be great if it had a counter that logged the number of times a poster has posted ?0 -
Best post here
Absolutely Dave. Personal responsibility.
"Do the math or take a bath" I like it
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Thanks for so many crazy answers,wright software I guess is good and slant fin0 -
The supply house starts it........
Hi Everyone,
I have my favorite supply house designer enter all of the info off of a set of plans that I give him. He does it in Wirsbo ADS. It is done for me free. I buy 95% of my hydronic heating supplies from them as the award. He sends me the ADS file by e-mail. I go through it and check things out. Also I meet with the client and go over floor coverings and any insulation change or upgrades. I make the adjustments myself to the ADS. I tweek everything until I am happy with the design temps and zones. I move tube spacing around, 6-9 inch spaces or 12 to 8. I play with the software. Then when done I hand draw the piping arangement. 75% of the time I can pick the pipe sizes and pumps from my head. When I am uncertain, I draw a section of the system in John Sigenthallers Hydronic Design studio. That will give me flow rates at diferent pipe sizes and pump choices. If I am entering the project in a RPA system showcase I then do a CAD drawing in Microsoft Visio. I also use Calcplus to size hydronic baseboard if it is needed in some rooms. When most of the piping is done on the job, then I draw an electric diagram for my workers or the electrician. I consult with Tekmar Controls Tech Dept on the wire diagram. If it is a contest I do the diagram in CAD.
John Ruhnke
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"I am the walking Deadman
Hydronics Designer
Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.0 -
The End I hope
I can not believe this thread has gone on for so long, let's put it to bed!0 -
Mr. Bob Brown,,,
Are you the "Bobby Brown" from Chicago I use to know? I am unable to contact you from your given e.mail address. So,, one can only wonder who you really are. I do have an idea. Be careful.
om :
Sent : Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:36 PM
To : garywwallace@hotmail.com
Subject : Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
| | | Inbox
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.
Delivery to the following recipients failed.
bbrown120@hotmail.com
From: Gary Wallace
To: bbrown120@hotmail.com
Subject: Bob
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:34 PM
STOP BUMPING THIS THREAD !!! It's over everyone.
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This discussion has been closed.
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