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Whats your favorite load calc software and why?
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Quick, easy, user friendly and hey it's free. When you print it out it looks really professional too. You should try it. When I actually get the job, I will follow up with a more detailed program. Siggy's Hydronics Design Studio is the tops. HydroniCad for basic drawings.
Give it a rest Rick. Who needs supply house drawings. We know the difference between an account and a producing account. Who pays more? The guy who orders his stuff on the interchanel or the dude who you do the heat losses for?
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Give it a rest Rick. Who needs supply house drawings. We know the difference between an account and a producing account. Who pays more? The guy who orders his stuff on the interchanel or the dude who you do the heat losses for?
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load calc software
Whats the easiest but professional looking software out there?Wright?0 -
heat software
To be perfectly honest, it's the one my supplier uses, I'm simply way to busy to do the calcs myself, as much as I would like to. This also gives you some backup is something doesn't go right. Wrightsoft does do a nice job, though
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From a Supplier's view
Now I don't want to get off on a rant, but...
We love it when contractors play the "we have someone to fall back on card" We can provide you suggested layout, materials, btu load, etc. BUT, and I will say again slower, BUT, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LEAVE WITH YOUR PLANS AND SUGGESTED MATERIAL LIST. You blow up a house, it's your fault! The room is cold, your fault again!
Do you think maybe we are busy also? We tend to cater to the contractors who know what they are doing (ask Mark, Darin, Singh) instead of the "simply too busy crowd", trust me on that one and yes you will pay your supplier for their time.
You probably pay more that the contractor who can do his own layout, did you think that was free? Our time is just as valuable as yours (here's a hint, not everybody pays the same for materials, not even close)
Our job as suppliers is to update you on line changes, pricing, new products and to provide you quality merchandise at a fair competitive price. You know, sell you stuff. If you want us to do your job for you put us on your payroll.
Take the time to learn your trade, quit depending on others so you can fall back on somebody if YOU make a mistake. I guarantee YOU will be more successful.
That's my opinion, I could be wrong...
Rick0 -
how about elite software?hvac calc?0 -
You hit the nail right on the head!
I used to let my supplier do my heatloss/heat gains till they made a big clerical mistake on one. I was going through a divorce at the time working 10 to 12 hours a day ,eating dinner then doing the office work at night sometimes till 12 midnight because my x was doing all of it before.
Anyway got a two ton heat gain instead of the four that it really was and gave it to the guys to rough in. When the owner wanted to finish off the air and I checked the load on my Wrightsoft (the only one I use )and discovered the mistake my supplier would not do a single thing for me!
They treated me like some want a be handy man who got in over his head.
After we settled with the owner I went out and got insurance for design and errors in omission. If you are doing any heating and air conditioning calcs you must have this Otherwise you are out there by your self.0 -
Gary, Give it a rest
Who needs supply house drawings? Approx 30% of our contractors that's who. It was the "someone to blame" post that irked me. Take the time to read Al's post and you will see why I didn't feel it was time to give it a rest. You have no idea who pays how much for what. Stick to slamming manufacturers not suppliers...
Rick0 -
I love the
Wright Draw program. My first year in business, 20 years ago, I installed an A/C system based on square feet and got burned big time. I had to re do an entire system for free. I swore never again. Took classes put on by ACCA up in Cherry Hill NJ, bought Wrightsoft software and never turned back. The Wright Draw program is fun to use, but I had to take a class to put it all together in my mind. It's easy now that I know how to use it but I had trouble figuring it out on my own. (SBS, Small brain Syndrome)
WW
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I wrote a review of HVAC-Calc...
... you can find it here in the On The Job Section. It's very well suited for the air-side of the business. Those who want more flexibility are probably better served with the likes of Wrightsoft, Elite, etc. which offer a bevvy of modules to mix and match to mirror your business.
It will also be interesting to see when Don Sleeth decides to upgrade HVAC-Calc to Manual J, 8th Ed because that'll potnetially complicate the program a great deal.0 -
I use Elite CHVAC
Yes it is geared to commercial projects but inputs for internal gains are still adjustable and it works fine for residential. No appreciable difference in outputs between the two.
Their integrated U-Factor Calculator is excellent. Pie charts make for nice presentations and "what-if" comparisons.
Overall my biggest complaints are that CHVAC assumes everyone in the world uses air systems. All systems are called Air Handlers so it is annoying to have to explain that to a hydronic-directed client.
But they do listen at Elite and maybe they will latch on to hydronic systems. They did incorporate one of my suggestions, that check figures express heat loss in terms of BTUH per SF. Small but convenient thing.0 -
My favorite.......
.....and most compicated is Wrightsoft. I say complicated because I'm .........well, slow. I use ADS when it is a strict radiant app, but I believe Wrightsoft is hands down the best on the market currently.
hb
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I love my Wrightsoft
I only use Wrightsoft so I cann't give a first hand comparision between others.
It seems to me that Wrightsoft is very versital so it does have a steeper learning curve to it. The first couple of jobs I did didn't get done till I talked to tech. support. Now it seems I can handle any type of situation I come across.0 -
Suppliers & Design
I like to use ADS. Because that's what I was taught on and it's easy to do a budget quote with.When I'm busy I'll send the heatloss design to Uponor instead of my supplier for two reasons.1, they have staff that that is all they do.2,I deal with more than one branch of the same supplier so I don't want to get a design done at one branch only to get material from another branch.
When I was first starting out I depended on my supplier for my complete design as I am sure many of us did.On two occasions there was a sizing error on the boiler and the the supplier corrected the problem both times at no cost to me.Now I'm at a point where I don't need their design help but I still get my business because they stood behind me back then.
Rick you say that you are not responsible for your designs even though you charge for the service.I wonder if when you approach a new heating contractor to get him to sign up with you do you tell him about your "tail-light design warranty" or do you let him find out the hard way?
I don't know everything but I try to associate with people that do, so if I contact my supplier and ask them what I need to do a particular job, I know that they will stand by their decision as well as their product.
Dobber0 -
Wrightsoft for ducted systems is a great program, very versatile with all of its various modules available for different job specific detail. Very in depth as far as user input variables. Easy to leave out certain parameters if you don't know where to access them. Tech support is OK.
I havent used Wrightsofts radiant program. Wirsbos ADS is very user friendly and quite comprehensive in it's detail.
Slant Fin is a extremely user friendly program, and from what I've seen pretty accurate, quik and easy.0 -
Everyone's busy
and no one wants to take responsibility for their design work or lack thereof. I feel anyone performing design work needs to stand behind their numbers. Of course, the suppliers' core business is selling the equipment, not performing design work. If the supplier is not charging for this service, they should be. And at that point it becomes profitable and differentiating, but with that profit comes responsibility.
My experience in the hydronic field has come at a supplier that is also provides engineering services. It's an interesting and unconventional way of doing things. There is no equal for having hands-on experience when designing, selling or troubleshooting products or heating systems. I've had nothing but frustrating experiences trying to get much info from suppliers regarding what they sell. I've called more than one supplier to purchase a product line they did not even know they carried. What service is the supplier providing for me at that point? Do they deserve a cut for ordering something I had to explain to them and they simply delivering to me? I may as well deal directly with the manufacturer at that point and just pay UPS. As things become more "just-in-time" the middle men become less important. The world is quickly becoming factory-direct.
My point is that if you have something to offer other than essentially the same product your competitor sells, you have a selling point for your business over your competitors. But yes, that comes with responsibility.
-Andrew0 -
WOW shame on you Al
As a Homeowner I am hiring a Contractor not a Supplier.
I am shocked to see contractors depending on a supply house's to do their job? I hope they are charging way way way less than the guy who can dot his own i's and cross his own t's. What's Gary's problem besides not making sense?
Bob0 -
Having a supplier..........
..... do your calcs is no big thing if you trust them explicitly. Though I do believe the good ones should charge for this service. If they charged for these calculations, it would lessen the cherry picking and shopping the bid that goes on all of the time with the lower life form contractors.
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That's the problem
We work up a very detailed quote for someone who can't do it themselves and they run to every supplier in the area and say "can you beat it" And then expect us to be the one to fall back on if it's not right. The sucessful companies design their own systems (ask them) The fly-by-nights who work out of the trunk of a car need us to do it and YES those people are the ones who undercut YOUR price.
Nothing is free now is it? The fact that you use your supplier to tell you what you need wouldn't instill confidence in the homeowner...
Rick0 -
If everyone from contactors........
.....to wholesalers, reps and manufacturers charged for the time it took to do design work, the whole trade would automatically raise itself to professional status.
I gave my attorney $2K for work he hasn't even done yet. It's called a retainer. Attorneys, architects, interior designers, ect. All of them command monies up front. Are they more of a professional than I? Hardly.
We all know the definition of insanity.
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\"That's the Problem\"
That's your problem! If you know they can't do it themselves, and you're just quoting; then they have no business getting a "detailed quote" in the first place.
I do what I call "Category Estimates". Yes, I'll size the boiler and quote it. Then the boiler trim, including required specialties, with a line for "boiler trim pipe,valve,& ftgs estimate". I have no idea how this guy is going to pipe this boiler, so I "cover it".Then I go on to DHW. I will size the tank, and then throw in "an estimate for trim". On to the radiation and controls, pumps, hangers, elctrical, pipe,valves and ftgs. I will provide a total baseboard or tubing number(no details), zone relay required, t'stats, mixing elements, line estimates for elec, hgrs, etc. A line for venting estimate, fuel tank pkg estimate, and miscellaneous & sundries. Rick? Is this what you mean by a "detailed quote"? There is no drawing, or any further details of the designed system in order to "put it together". When they tell me the job is a go, I will elaborate.
Others may handle quoting and estimating differently. I feel this gives the "contractor" enough to bid for the job, but, it in no way is it a detailed installation materials list.
Contractors who do their own design usually have more lofty topics for discussion.
The other guys who get the job take much more of my time.
Jed
THAT IS UP TO THE INSTALLER!!(I agree with you there)0 -
This subject really gets me going....
In my humble, honest, non politically correct opinion
If you call yourself a heating professional, and quote installation jobs yet do not know how to size the boiler, and design the system yourself then you should let the homeowner know that fact.
I have seen jobs that I have repaired over the years that were very neatly piped, everything was level, and the job looked very professional. Except for the fact that the piping was the wrong size, loops too long, too little circ, etc.
Why? Because the heating contractor got a design from his supply house based on a blueprint that was given him. The G.C. then added about 3,000 sq ft to the job by adding a few feet here, a few there, etc. Then the heating contractor saved the extra money he spent on the extra tubing by using smaller manifolds, pumps, controls, etc. Can't blame him right? He had to use the little money he was going to make on this job to feed his family.
So he blames the GC, the GC blames the supply house, the supply house blames the Manufacturers rep, and the rep gets the manufacturer to help pony up a few thousand to make the GC happier so that he won't complain to everyone he knows about how X heating contractor, X Supply house, X Manufacturers Rep, X Manufacturer screwed him.
I spent the time and money to learn how to do my own designs, just like I did for my Master Plumber's license, and electrical, etc. I just went to a small town municipal building to file my name as the plumbing contractor on a new home, and they didn't even want to see my license.....
Wish there was a law.........
Or a common sense degree that required a renewal that involved retesting every year to maintain a required contractors license that had to be submitted to do any work anywhere.
Cosmo Valavanis0 -
Cosmo
You hit the ball out of the park with that post.
End of discussion.0 -
Cosmo
I am with Darin, doing the Wave in the Grandstands.0 -
I'm with you on that Cosmo
In 20 yrs. of plumbing I have yet to be asked to show my license to a building official, I'm quite certain this has very little to do with my work and more to do with the fact that they DON'T CARE. If they are not going to enforce the licensing of the trades than I wish they would quit asking me to pay money to keep my license current. It really #@**^* me off.0 -
thanks Darin
You know, I am just sick and tired of being in this business since I could swing a pipe wrench and its just the same bull caca over and over again.
Unfortunately I don't think there is an easy answer
In a capitalistic, free market society we enjoy many freedoms
One of them happens to be the freedom to screw-up, not learn from your mistakes, but keep quoting jobs cheap and you can still support whatever habit it is that happens to be more important than actually learning how to do the job right.
I love the freedoms this country offers
Guess I just have to put up with this.......
After all, the other extreme is to have everything regulated.
Ever hear about the CCCP building inspection bureau.... You do work. you pay me extra bottle Vodka and I say Da, passed inspection. If heat no work, you go to Siberia. I take the rest of Vodka......
Cosmo Valavanis0 -
Nicely said Cosmo
What put me over the edge was the "someone to fall back on (blame) Sorry, I became unglued.
If you are a professional do you really need to have a scapegoat? That spells l-o-s-e-r to me. We do equipment sizing, zones, accessories and a big fat misc $ for boiler trim etc. I had a guy ask me the other day (been in business for 30+ years) who happens to hold Master Plumbing license's in 3-County's to do a room by room baseboard layout on the drawing. I said dude, you have been doing this longer than me. He said, yeah but you are better that me at this sort of thing.
Really? how does he know that? My job is to sell and to inform not be your own engineering firm.
Everybody should just go learn how to do their own take-offs and listen to Zappa because "the pojama people are boring me to pieces"
Rick0 -
heat calc by supplier
No offense taken, Rick, but in this case you are wrong. The only thing we have the supply house do is the heat calc. We design, install, wire and fire all of our systems. We double check everything that is quoted to us and have never had a serious problem. When mistakes have occurred, we work together with the supplier to solve the problem. Nobody is perfect and there ain't no such thing as a mistake free tradesman. The suppliers provide this service and I have the utmost confidence in the work they do for us, and we've done some amazing systems over the years. We take pride in being amoungst the best at what we do.....sorry if you misinterpreted what I meant, but my suppliers program is still my favorite !!!!
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here we go againq
I just love generalized evaluations of comments here...get a life Rich. I wrote 'someone for backup when something goes wrong" meaning I ain't in it alone.....we're a team. that's how the pros do it....Geezzzzzzzz
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offense taken
On second thought I am offended, very...You don't know me well enough to judge me this the crowd you're so pissed off about. i don't know where or for who you work, but maybe that's a good thing.
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Oh, and this is relevant to the original post
I use mostly Wrightsoft, after spending more than 2700 bucks, and a bit of a learning curve. I like it for every new house I am involved on.
On small additions requiring baseboard, or to do a quick check on a small ranch house again using hot water baseboard I use the free slant-fin software.
Every radiant job I work on gets Wirsbo ADS. I am patiently waiting for a supposedly new Wirsbo/Wrightsoft joint project that would plug in to my Wrightsoft suite that would be better than the Radiant Plus module that I have been wanting to add-on for a few years.
My rule of thumb is that if I can fit my thumb under my belt then I have room for another (add food item here). A belt with a lot of extra holes serves as a modulating, variable orifice intake restriction device.
Cosmo Valavanis0 -
A rest,
Designs from supply houses allways have an agenda. True?
What about the other 70%? Are these the ones with "deep discounts?" Sorry Rick but in my experience, the supply house designs have been way out of line with reality. That's ok. You get what you pay for. Keep up the great work. You're one of a kind and I only wish you worked for one of my suppliers.
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Al,,,
You're in good company. I'd be quite PO'd too from the responses from this group.
Adding insult to injury, our charictors been under attack here & on other threads. Some people. I don't wear po-jamas but I do like Zappa. Ohhh,,, The Drama.
Interesting response from another active thread going on
<A HREF going on here:
Subject: HA !
"How are you sizing your new jobs without heat loss calculations? Most likely the ever reliable supply house method They're free AND it's never your fault !
You can't ruke this stuff up!0 -
um i'm confused
I thought you too were on the same side?
AL, I do not mean to single you out by any means. I too started out having the supply house do my work for me, because that is what my Dad did. He didn't trust me with it. probably never will.
We had a good argument back about 4 years ago when he wanted to replace the gas boiler in a house he is renting out. The house had a 120,000 btu boiler in it, and he gave the square ft and glass measurement to the supply house, and was told to install a 90,000 btu boiler. I used my Wrightsoft program and got only 60,000. I also know that Manual J 8th can over compensate a little.
I selected a 55,000 BTU boiler, and added more insulation in the attic, and changed weatherstripping on the doors, and I have been monitoring the fuel usage, clocked the gas meter using Mark Eatherton's method, and I think I oversized the darn thing by 10,000 btu minimum.
I just think that me knowing how to run a heat loss is just part of my job selling and installing heating systems.
Supply houses charge me for having to pay a salesman sit there all day and do heat losses. I would rather save that money for my own education. I guess we just have a different philosophy.
I apologize if I offended you also, I am just sick of my chosen profession somehow not being viewed in the same regard as Architects, Lawyers, Closet System designers, etc. read back to hb's post in this thread about retainers. I feel I deserve them, but I agree that not all of the heating contractors out there do.
the debate continues
Cosmo Valavanis0 -
judging again
It really irritates me when someone (especially someone in the business) makes remarks like you read from "supply house" rick......I'm a professional at what I do, I've been doing it for 40 years and am from the old school. I do quality work, stand behind it 100%, keep up to date with all the latest technology, and use all the tools at my disposal to do the job correctly with the best possible equipment that my customer can afford, never sell someone anything they don't need and have never had a system that didn't perform to peak efficiency. That how professionals work, and if using a supply house to help me do that is not a good use of my time, then mis culpa........but I ain't gonna stop just because some "yahoo" thinks I'm looking for someone to blame when things don't go right...it's my name on the side of the truck and my reputation on the line, not his........."those who can do...those who can't sell ".
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ball out of the park
WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!I'll hold my abilities and talent and professionalism against anyone here on this site. All it takes in one individual taking something out of context and printing a stupid unthought out remark and I'm the bad guy?????? NOT..............end of discussion
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Once Again Gary You Got It Wrong
The point of my post is "SOMEONE TO FALL BACK ON" sorry you and Al missed that. I am sure the "Pro's" understood.
Fact, Gary & Al if we provide a heat loss & suggested material quote and it's wrong or You put in in wrong... Hahahahaha it's not our fault. Call your lawyer and ask. Plus, if you work with your supplier instead of using them as your private engineering firm, You will get more respect from your customers, "Pro's and your (man, do I feel sorry for) your supplier.
It's free? Delusional is the first word I can think of. The guys who submit a detailed order instead of a "whatcha think I need? It's a 1200sq/ft modular? Get The Best Price and Service! I am sorry IF you can't perform your own heat loss, don't worry one of our counter guys will do it for you (for a price).
Oh,"get a life Rich" I would if I didn't have to do heat loss calculations for the well... You know who they are.
*Gary, please re-read the foundation and basis of this post, you might get something out of it that will help you in the future. Now, I am going to burn my Zappa collection...0 -
Possible solution?
When I do a design (As a rep)I try to keep control of the complete material list until the job turns into an order unless I know the contractor.
My quotes have notes on them claiming copyright of the design and ownership. ie. If I do all the work and you shop it out, I'm sending you a bill for my design time.
I take responibility for the design. However, If you shop out components after the fact and use something other then what is in my design, I am no longer responsible for the performance of that design. (All very clearly noted.)
You (As a contractor) get your money. We want you to make it. It's yours. We get ours, back up everything, the job goes well and everyone is happy.
I have seen very good work done by first time wetheads who went into the job on not much more than faith. And of course there are others who want to pick it apart and subsitute things based on price with no cluse as why certain things are in the system. They want to make sure nobody makes any money. (Usually this includes them by the time it's over) Then they want us to come out and "unscrew" their job...for free. "After all, we're the rep, that's our job."
When I did any pricing as a contractor, I kept the material lists. No HO ever got them. I had some that would want to go to the supply house and pick up that materials for me and pay for them at my cost. THE NERVE!
I would ask them "What do you do for a living?" Then turn the question back on them. "Ok so I'm your boss and say, how about I do this part of your job and then you do this part and we'll just cut your pay to "x" since I really don't need you do do that much. You interested are you in continuing your employment with that person?"
After that if the story doesn't change, I'm done with them. Life's too short.0 -
If I never.....
....had to do a heat loss/gain again, I couldn't be happier. The issue, with me, is the only wholesaler I really trust to do take-offs doesn't sell the tubing I use. If I am to have a supply house do my work, it would be expected I purchase all job materials through them. I have a great friend in Utah who operates a large shop and works closely with his supplier for all of their radiant designs. This fellow installs hundreds of thousands of feet a year. Instead of hiring staff to do this, he saves money by having the supplier do it. It's a win - win situation. The wholesaler sells a huge amount of product and the contractor saves money on designs by not having to do it in house.
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Changing thread
I have been watching this thread and it has gone from software to supply house engineering.
I use the Slant Finn for simple projects.
More complex I "work with" my supply house they are more up to date on the new products and problems with existing than I am so I use there support for sizing and specifications on such jobs. I also double check there work and have them check mine since two sets of eyes are better than one.
My heating supplier is more expensive than others in the area but the support is better. It is not a blame game it is the simple fact that they see more jobs, and seen the pluses and minuses of products and application.
Lets all play nice.
Mitch S.
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Al
you said you stand behind behind your work 100%? i thought you said earlier that you can pass the blame on a wholesaler that was there to help you? who standing behind the work 100% you or a supplier? the people lashing out at the supplier rick are embarrassed because he's right. buy a software program and this thread would never have happened. don't shoot the messenger. do you truly stand behind work 100% or is it 5% you 95% someone else? please clarify. Bob
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peace in the valley
Gentlemen,
You're all fighting from the same side of the aisle (IMHO). There's good apples and bad apples on every side of these issues - just not you all as far as I can see.
I can tell this story because Richard is one of the Dead Men. Richard Stover had a local supply house with some of the most unusual inventory you could imagine. A shrewd businessman, he knew you'd eventually have to come to him because no one else would have the particular part you needed.
One Sat morn, early on in my career, I stopped by for an oddball part. Another contractor was ahead of me and while I was pouring myself a cup of brewed coffee and grabbing a handful of hard pretzels (always free), the other guy asks for exactly the same oddball part I needed. "Sorry, we're out of that item" Richard said. That guy leaves & Richard asks me what I need. I told him "Evidently you're out of stock. I was looking for the exact same part". To which he said "How many do you need?"
I was pretty stunned and said so. **** explained that the other guy only ever came there when he was in trouble and always shopped his pricing around town. "On the other hand, whuile I know you don't buy everything from me, I know you buy a fair share of your goods here and without playing one supply house against the other. For you, I'd turn the shelves upside-down looking for an item."
All I've ever asked for from my suppliers is a fair price - the first time asked - because I don't play pricing games. As for sizing issues? I'm responsible (ultimately) for the work, its installation and its performance. On very rare occasions I'll ask for help with sizing or let my supplier do the takeoff, but it makes me nervous to lose control over that critical foundation.
Here's another true story.
I walk into a supply house & a salesman says "Ask him, he knows about radiant heating." So, the mechanical contractor tells me hes got an old stone home with five radiant zones. If any three call for heat it works great. Kick in four to five zones and the house doesnt heat and the boiler cant maintain temperature. Supply house salesman pipes in with Just add primary/secondary piping and everything will be fine. Really? How does that work??? I said the boilers too small, to which a voice in the corner chimes in with It cant be. Why not I asked? Because I sized it he says. OK, fair enough. What R-value did you assign those two-foot-thick uninsulated stone walls? R-11, he says. What about the windows? Hand-blown glass in their original wooden sashes. Any storm windows? Nope R-value assigned? 2. OK, what about the basement floor? Any insulation? R-11 the homeowner said so. Attic? R-30 Did you go up into the attic? No. Basement? No. Why not? Because the homeowner had said that was the insulation values for both. Was there access to the attic? A stairway.
A bit of an extreme example, but one where the inside design guy had been on a site visit and still got it wrong! When I asked him how he arrived at R-11 for an uninsulated stone wall, he replied someone told me that was right. I gave him my copy of Dans book Pumping Away.
The contractor ended up installing a larger boiler at his expense.
I see both sides of the issue: suppliers who have inside design guys who don't know hydronics (or HVAC) and contractors who don't follow designs and then want to blame everyone but themselves.
The only way to fly is to take control and do your own designs. They don't take very long with today's programs and they do something nothing else can do - they give you ownership of the foundation onto which you build everything else. Then, when the HO changes their minds about floor coverings or the builder adds/changes/deletes things, you know immediately if that has the potential to impact your work.
Do the math or take a bath.
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- 47 Job Opportunities
- 15 Recall Announcements