The new Prejudice Part 2

Tom_35

I've worked with some PE's that really have a lot on the ball and are willing to listen to a contractor's viewpoint on some phases of design and/or installation. I've also worked with some that don't have enough sense to pour piss out of a boot. It's obvious that they made the top 90% of their graduating class possible.

From the initial class I attended of Siggy's at a ComforTech in 1991, I've hung on his every column in PM and his books. He is definitely an engineer that has the respect of anyone that deals with radiant heating.

Our very first radiant job we did was designed by a PE that had no business doing this type of work. The job was a 17,000 sq. foot home and he had one 750,000 90% boiler and one 500,000 90% boiler. Needless to say, they are extremely oversized and cycle long before they ever start to condense any flue gases. He speced 5 hp B&G circulating pumps for each system, even though the boilers had 1 1/2 hp pumps built into the system itself. 2 small radiant zones had 1/2 hp pumps for each zone.

It was after we completed the installation that we started digging out the info ourselves and found the proper design and installation practices. It's embarassing that we installed the system as we now know that it could have been done much cheaper and worked much better than it does now. But---we followed the PE's design.

I realize that Siggy, Brad, Andrew and other PE's on this board would be in another class than this engineer. So would Hot Rod, JR, Mark, Rob, Dave, and most of the remaining posters on The Wall that are non-engineers.

Right or wrong---a stamp doesn't make the engineer, but it does give them certain rights.

Tom Atchley

John Ruhnke

It can be done!!

New Prejudice part 2


When I wrote the first piece I started out to try and make people aware of the fact that education comes in different ways. Some smart people are not cut out for college. People are born with certain abilities. Some smart people are born to build and born for the trades. I and my two employees Fred and PJ are three examples. My daughter is two years old. Her name is Emily and she is born to build. She spent One and a half hours building with lego blocks. That among other signs helped me to realize that. I had a choice. I was a good student taking college prep class’s. I chose the trades because my desire to build was stronger then my desire to spend time in a class room. For PJ and Fred I don’t believe they had that option. Neither one of them did well in school. I fight for them. Both of them are exceptionally gifted in the born to build ability. They are both very smart but it is a different type of intelligence that would not show up well in a class room atmosphere. Why? Because they were born to build that is why. God never intended for them to sit in a class room. If I could trade two college graduate engineers to work for me instead of PJ and Fred I would turn them down. Why? because in the born to build category Fred and PJ are exceptionally talented and I wouldn’t trade them for anyone else in the world.

Engineer, designer, teacher, contractor, mechanic, helper and technician, are just labels and they really mean nothing at all. Way too much emphasis is placed on a title. To me, the most important thing is what you are able to accomplish that counts. I am my worst critic. I judge myself harshly. I have worked hard over the years to make myself capable. I really enjoy designing hydronic heating systems. I have done well at it. The state of CT won’t recognize my achievements. They still won’t let me design a system for someone else. I am only allowed to design systems that my company installs. None of that means anything to me because I consider them nothing but a bunch of bureaucratic nuisances. I recognize my achievements. I consider myself O.K. at it but not good at it.

Why you ask? I still am not able to compare the efficiency of a design that I did last year with a design I did five years ago. I cannot compare a design that I did with a design done by someone else. I have no means of comparison. Yes I can make a project look pretty but in my book that is not enough. I will never be a good designer until I achieve that goal. I need to first be able to compare before I can improve. In fact I kind of consider myself unqualified to be great. Until I design a system that is highly efficient then I cannot be great. Efficiency, Comfort, Longevity and Art are the things that make up a great hydronic design.

I went to ASHRAE in 2005 looking for some answers. I talked to the smartest professors in the country at energy efficiency. Do you know what they told me about the Overall Efficiency Formula? They said that there were too many variables that it would never be accurate enough. THEY TOLD ME THAT IT CAN’T BE DONE!!

IT CAN’T BE DONE!!
IT CAN’T BE DONE!!
IT CAN’T BE DONE!!

Do you know what? I believe that with the help of some very smart wetheads, engineers professors, teachers, contractors, helpers and others that we can do this. I believe that it can be done!!!! I know it can be done!!

I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!
I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!
I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!

I showed my plan at the RPA Expo, at the Energy Efficiency Action Group. You know what? They thought it could be done too. They made me Chairman of the Energy Efficiency Action Group. The members of the RPA believe in me. I know they do.

If we can come up with this proper means of comparison, I know that we can save the world billions of dollars in fuel bills.

I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!
I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!

The fuel reserves here in America are not going to last for ever. What is the future going to look like for my two daughters?

I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!
I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!

What is the future going to look like for your kids?

I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!
I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!

Look for the copy of the plan in the future. I am going to write the plan.

I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!
I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE!!

We can do it!

John Ruhnke


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mark smith

don't feel bad ..

my wifes family hates me ..

'cause i'm not a stockbroker .....
come ta think of it ...

my wife hates me too ....
she wasn't born to "contracting"

Scott Gregg

Huh...how about that?

Henry Ford was told that the V-8 engine was not possible.

The Wright Brothers were told by many that powered flight was not possible. (This was just two bicycle mechanics!)

The BEST thing anyone can do for an American with an idea is tell him...."It can't be done" or "It won't work" or "What makes you think you can do that when nobody else has?"

I think my idea was a good one. Some though it was not worth the effort or investment. I think it was. (www.profitableplumbing.com)

Don't ever let anyone else determine weather you succeed or fail before you take on a task. It's best to plow ahead and deal with whatever happens.

Many people a lot smarter than us have been dead wrong about a lot of things and the word is a better place because somebody decided to NOT listen to them.

You go for it and I’ll put my money on a determined man any day. Heck, look at all the cool stuff Hot Rod has come up with!

And when you make it, you’ll have to be the one to shout about it. At least at first.

“It’s a poor dog who won’t wag his own tail”

jp_2

you are prejudice!

so why are you so prejudice? why would your partners NOT so benefit from the knowledge of the sciences? why would higher education hinder them? if you think it would, you do not understand the very basic principles of the sciences and how they came to be.

I've heard it a couple of time here, "yah, when it come to field work, the real world, I throw the books out the window"
this is quite a funny statement and shows me the lack of real understand.

are you telling me you do NOT need to understand the physics and calculus, the backbone of hydronic heating? do you think heat can conduct along a foil backed batt of insulation? I've heard many time here it can!

are you making up new rules? do you have the proofs to these new rules?

John Ruhnke

You don't have enough info...........

JP,

You are jumping to conclusions. First off I am not against education. I am for it. I have read a lot of books over the years. I have taken college couses at four different colleges over the years. I have visited many trade shows, taken many seminars and I have a strong network of experts that I can call up and get advice from at any time. The reason I go to college is to gain knowledge in an area that I seek knowlegde in. I go to college to learn. I have no degree because I gather my knowledge from many different sources. I want knowledge, not a degree. If I am short in knowledge about physics and other sciences and if I don't have the time available to learn them then I will seek out other experts to help me out and do that portion of the required work.

I am making up some new rules and formulas. I am also borrowing a lot of information from others. Most of my great ideas come from other sources and other people. I just put the pieces of the puzzle together thats all. As far as proof goes that depends on how far you are willing to get involved. I will first post my updated plan with the Radiant Panal Association Energy Efficiency Action Group then when it is approved by the members for distribution I will publish it here on the wall.

JR

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jp_2

only go by what you write

""" If I could trade two college graduate engineers to work for me instead of PJ and Fred I would turn them down."""
this says that no one could be better?

I can only go by what you write, couple of times you have foo foo'd engineers.

i come from the other side of the tracks . my first job was with a tech who spoke no english, we did sign lanuage for dinner time. all diagrams where in german. I used everything from tech school(pure theory) to teach myself how this new machine worked. not much on the job training, never would have gotten anywhere without my schooling.

heck, at first I couldn't even read the electrical prints, they didn't teach us that at school, but once I understood the symbols, I understood how things worked.

I figure out hydronic piping cause its similar to hydraudic(oil) prints.

I look forward to seeing your new formulas.....

but you could say something about this so-called plan?
give us one small,dinky formula?

EDIT: please, at least define what this means?
""Overall Efficiency Formula? """

otherwise I have no idea of what half your post means.

jp_2

re-read this

""They said that there were too many variables that it would never be accurate enough. THEY TOLD ME THAT IT CAN’T BE DONE!!""

reread this or re-word it. otherwise what they said makes sense.

you say they said it can't be done, but the line reads "would not be accurate enough." theres a big difference between can't be done and not accurate!

i can draw straight lines but not as accurate as with a straight edge.....big difference

ed wallace

new prejidice and cant be done

this reminds me of something i heard on the history channel this week when the wright brothers 1st applied for a patent on thier airplane the patent office took 5 yrs to issue a patent because a bunch of proffessers said airplane flight was impossible it defided the laws of phisics so for 5 yrs as the wright brothers put on demos around the country and europe they were awaiting thier patent so much for book smarts 2 lowly bike mechanics did what no one else could do

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John Ruhnke

I am a Radiant Designer and Contractor...

JP,

I am a radiant designer and Contractor.
Fred has worked for me for eleven years. PJ has worked for me about 4 months now. They do an excellent job installing the systems. Fred designs some of what he installs. No I would not trade them for engineers. They can do a better job of installing radiant then any engineer could. I believe even PJ who is new at this would learn faster then an engineer. PJ and Fred are born to build and have exceptional talent. Some engineer's are born to build but are they exceptional? O.K. maybe you might find one or two. If they spent all that time behind a book I guarenetee that they would not do as good a job as Fred or PJ would. PJ has experience working with his hands during high school as a small engine mechanic for many years. Both Fred and PJ have worked in machine shops for a while. Even though PJ has only worked for me for 4 months he still has lots of mechanical and electrical experience.

Currently I am working with the RPA. I will need to consult with them before I disclose anything to the public.

I might publish something more about the Overall Efficiency Formula here sometime soon in the future.

The Overall Efficiency Formula will save the world billions of dollars in fuel bills. It is a project we at thr RPA are currently working on.

John Ruhnke

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John Ruhnke

IT CAN’T BE DONE!!

A professor after listeninmg to my speach told me that there were too many variables and that it would never be accurate enough. I argued with him for a little bit. Then he raised his voice a little and said.

IT CAN’T BE DONE!!

I left after that conversation with a smile on my face. I knew I had the skill to put the pieces of the puzzle together and solve it. Whe he said "IT CAN’T BE DONE!!" I knew that this project was the project for me.

IT CAN’T BE DONE!!

Every good Inventor wants to here that.

IT CAN’T BE DONE!!

We shall soon find out. Together we can save the world billions of dollars in fuel bills.

JR



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jp_2

wow

wow you really ARE prejudice......

since you will not disclose any thing about this "formula" why do you keep bringing it up? I've read several posts about it but have no clue as to what it means.

"""I still am not able to compare the efficiency of a design that I did last year with a design I did five years ago. I cannot compare a design that I did with a design done by someone else. I have no means of comparison."""

this I do not understand, seems this can already done.

heatloss is not accurate enough? can't use monitored data to derive efficiency? can't see where you are coming from.

jp_2

accuracy

what accuracy are you looking for?

do you agree with all the variables he spoke about?

are you talking Real world or lab world?

well I agree, you can't turn dirt into chocolate.....

edit: Ok, sure it can be done, but if it isn't accurate what good is it!

John Ruhnke

That is the puzzle to solve............

JP,

That is the puzzle that we will be solving. We will make the formula accurate enough to be useful.

John Ruhnke

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Unknown

This content has been removed.

jerry scharf_3

You'll appreciate this

John,

I know you are an inventor, and I do some of this myself. I am toying with a new project, and am looking for a part. When I start talking to people, people send me to company #1. The person from company 1 tells me the physics say you can't build what I want. What I really need to buy is their $50-100 parts. Funny, I'm a trained physicist, the person telling me this is a salesman and he does not explain the physics. I am supposed to take this as gospel. I don't argue, it's just a supplier not to do business with.

So I'm now talking to another vendor, who has a very interesting product that can be had in bulk. The product is very expensive, but I can see a way to actually make the package quite cheap by using only a small amount. So we talk about it and I say, so is it $5k per square foot? He says no, probably more like $8k. I say fine, if my numbers are about right I can get about 1000 sensors out of a square foot. So I ask him to send me a scrap, tell us about bonding the leads on and we'll play with it. No risk to them, and the possibility of a large market for his high end product. After he hems and haws, he finally decides that he won't work with us, won't send a sample, and says good bye.

Here's number 2 saying that it probably could be done, but there is definitely some things to solve. He sees no reason from the physics to say it can't. Looks like I will have to look for someone else doing the number two type of product and is willing to dance.

Meanwhile everyone in company number #1 still believes that the physics say it can't be done. Despite the fact I'm talking to another person about a product that can most likely do exactly what I want.

If you stare at the world from one place, you settle on a "truth". That truth stays the same until someone else looks at the problem from a different perspective and sees other things. Once they go on to demonstrate that there are things beyond the "truth", the world moves.

My favorite current example was the Australian doctors who discovered that most ulcers were caused by a bacterial infection. They published their results and were ridiculed. Finally, in a desparate attempt to prove their results, one of the doctors with no prior GI problems swallowed the bacteria. Within several days he had full blown ulcers. Then he took an antibiotic treatment and the ulcers went away. Now antibiotic treatment is the standard first line for treating the onset of ulcers. Every doctor knew the "truth" about ulcers and dismissed anything that contradicted the "truth."

So hang in there. Do your work. If you want me to review what you've done, I can give it my best effort. If you've read my thoughts on modelling a heated house, you know I also believe useful things can be done.

jerry

John Ruhnke

Modeling a Heated House

Jerry,

No I haven't read your thoughts on modelling a heated house. I would like to. You sound like one that can think outside the box. I like that.

JR

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Constantin

John,

Please also add my name to your list of potential reviewers if its of any value to you. NDA's etc. shouldn't be a problem, this is not a field of work I am currently employed in. Cheers!

John Ruhnke

Membership in the RPA

Constantin,

Right now I am working on this project with the Radiant Panal Association's Energy Efficiency Action Group. I am Chairman of the Group. If you or anyone want to get fully involved you are welcome. You would have to be a member of the RPA though. I didn't make up that rule. It was like that before I joined the group. I will make some posting about our progress here on the wall. I would love to have both you and Jerry on our team. You are both very smart and can think out side the box. The same goes to any other wallies. I come to the wall because I find some of the smartest hydronic technician and engineers here.

JR

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Steve D._6

PE license

A lot is being made of licensing and formal education. A friend of mine in school was studying pharmacy - a 5 year program vs. 4 for engineering. She thought it was ridiculous that you need 5 years of school to pass out pills and she was right. Her education was preparing her to design pharms and know the ins and outs of drug interactions for the safety of her customers. What she planned to do with it was her call afterwards.

My observation is that a small percentage of graduating engineers will be making the most of what they have learned in their education. The qualification is used to "standardize" what the knowledge level is for a candidate. It is also true that for a bright person without the diploma, they can work in the same areas with great success (engineering, not pharmacy).

Engineers who study a field will learn the science of combustion, thermodynamics, heat transfer, fluids, etc., but also the science and economics of developing a product. They should be qualified at this point to create the technologies that wallies excel in applying.

Policy mandates that for public permitting and contracting that engineers be licensed with a PE. PE is in a concentrated field, so a PE license does not qualify you to sign off on just anything. That a PE signs off puts them on the hook for a design, so there is no incentive to stick your neck out for a fee if you are not an expert.

The above post states "above ten tons, I have got to get a Licensed mechanical engineer to stamp MY DRAWINGS". It's good to get an extra set of eyes on any design and if things do go wrong, he will get to talk to the lawyers - not a bad thing in my book.

Yes, the Wright brothers did great things. I worked in a defense plant where one of their grand or great grandchildren worked and he was a licensed pilot. Things change once an industry develops and I'm in favor of licensing pilots. Early doctors, dentists, were unlicensed but now society requires it.

One last thing that may show where the grass is greener. Engineers usually don't have to get too dirty, but their output is portable - just look at where the modulating / condensing expertise is now. Hybrid vehicle expertise is centered in Japan. For bright people who are closer to the end product, those jobs are not portable. Designing a system or debugging a Prius will be done here if that's where the need is.

I hope that I will have a job in engineering long enough to be able to hire a contractor when I need one.

John Ruhnke

P.E. license

Steve,

I am perfectly capable of studying and passing the P.E. test. It would entail taking a few college courses on theory to get myself up to speed. If I concentrated for a couple of years I could do it. The problem is, other then a diploma I see no advantage to me. It is about sacrafice. I would have to give up studying in other areas to do it. I value the knowledge in other areas more. I don't want to learn about structual engineering or hot air duct design. In order to pass the P.E. I would need to study those things The beuarocrats are trying to force me to get a P.E. by restricting my capabilities and that is wrong. It is wrong for society because I am the best person to design a radiant heating system. I am a good person to design new standards for this industry.

Three primary areas of study for me are going to be.......

Building a Contracting business. I am going to hire a mentor to help me expand my business. It means buiding systems for my company. These systems are software systems and best practices in project management, service agreements, maketing plan, selling and other things. It will be a lot of work.

The second area is I want to devleop new standards to measure efficiency in our field. This is extremely important to the future of the world. I have a lot of learning to do in this area.

The third area is hydronic heating. I always am learning and expanding my knowledge in that area. I need to learn more about Tekmars new TK4 controls.

Society is getting to hung up on these titles and diplomas. We need more people learning in different ways. It is a variety of educational experiences that this country needs. We need to promote more people from different backgrounds. We can't just automatically disqualify someone because he doesn't have a diploma. You need to look deeper at his capabilities. Some people who don't have a P.E. are more capable at designing a heating system then some people with a P.E. abd vise versa.

I ask you why can't I put my stamp on the Engineers drawing? If I am more capable shouldn't he be the one submiting the drawing to me? Wouldn't that make more sense?

Some people might agree with me in that I am more capable at designing a radiant heating system then some P.E. engineers. Some P.E. engineers are more capable at designing a radiant system then me.

JR

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ALH_4

Engineers & Hands-On Experience

I cannot speak for others with engineering degrees, but I have not only spent hours behind books, I have also spent many, many hours on the other end of things. Growing up on a farm, I had the pleasure of working on everything from Kenworths to Combines to coal fire-tube boilers. Does that make me more competent when designing a heating system? Maybe. Maybe not. I dont know about others, but I found engineering school to be quite difficult at times. I do think I am better at what I do than I would have been otherwise.

There are really no "magic fixes" with respect to energy savings. We can reduce heat loss (and gain) through better insulation. We can design every heating system with a modulating boiler and outdoor reset. We can steer people toward low temperature heating systems. The Plumbing & Heating world is slow to adopt new technology (The Wall not withstanding). It is unfortunate.

Formulas are very useful, but reality is very rarely predicted exactly by any formula, especially in design. Engineers continually deal with factors of safety, empirical formulas, and statistics. None of these are exact. There is no exact in the real world.

You must run into a lot of arrogant engineers, John. Forget them, and let's all do a better job.

Have a good one.

-Andrew

Timco

I really do agree here. Why keep talking up this "formula" and not expand a bit on what you are referring to? My wife is a PHD and I FIXed here boiler...(before we got married) She never claims to be wiser than me, and I respect the hell out of all the time she has spent in school and in a lab to be where she is. If I had the great formula that everyone was missing I would want the world to start conserving today, by all of you having this great new knowledge...but I just don't see it.

Tim

John Ruhnke

I'm like you........

Andrew,

I'm like you but from the other side. I have a lot of hands on experience but I also have read a lot of books, I have taken college courses to, not enough to amount to a degree but enough for me to learn from. I know that my technical knowledge is equal that of an engineer. They have capabilities that I don't. It is different. I have capabilities that engineers don't. I'm not talking just about hands on stuff. I am talking about design stuff too. I can design just as well as an engineer can. So can a lot of people here on the wall.

You said "no "magic fixes" with respect to energy savings".

How would you know? I know of a extremely simple fix that will save the world billions of dollars in fuel bills. It is a replacement for AFUE. I didn't think of it, I learned about it through networking.

I also have a magic formula that will allow designers such as myself to compare one heating system to another. That will save the world billions more. I thought of that one on my own.

I am capable and I have accomplished few things.
I feel I am capable of revolutionizing the industry with the help of a few other smart people of course.

I am just a simple Master Pipefitter.

John Ruhnke

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John Ruhnke

I wish it was so simple.

Timco,

I wish it was so simple. Great ideas are a lot of work. It takes huge sums of time money and energy to go after them. The goal is not to prove a raw idea to a bunch of people here on the wall.

The goal is to convince the Department of Energy to change there ways. That my friend is what needs to be done. That is what I have been trying to do for a couple of years now. I have a plan and I think it will work. I have a bunch of people that have seen the plan and they believe in me and are willing to help.

Things are moving forward but it all doesn't happen over night. Like I said before I will disclose some more info here on the wall in the near future. It could be weeks or it could be months. If you really want to help or learn more then join our group. I would love to have you aboard.

JR

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John Ruhnke

Shake things up...............

All I am trying to do here on the wall is shake things up. I want people to think. I want people to realize that trades people have done a lot of valuable accomplishments,first to flight and the invention of heart transplants are a couple. I also want you to realize that we trades people are capable of a lot more valuable acomplishments.

I consider a good trades person as one that learns on the job, serves an apprenticeship. One that reads books at night to learn about what he sees on the job. He visits trade shows and takes seminars. He also develops a network of experts that he can rely on for answers to problems that he encounters. He gets smarter and smarter with every passing year.

Once things are shaken up then maybe they might start to move forward in the right direction.

Maybe you might start to take a simple trades person such as myself a little more seriously.

JR

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Mike Thomas_2

Blind

In the land of the blind, even a one eyed man would be king!

John Ruhnke

What about our rights?

I'm a trades person. I learned by serving an apprenticeship. I have proved myself capable. I am not afraid to match my talents with any engineer. I wasn't a bad boy because I joined the trades. I was born to build. Why should I be punished because I learn differently? and different things. What about our rights? I thought this was a free country. I thought it was free to everyone. Ben Franklin was one of our founding fathers. He served an apprenticeship as a printer. He believed in books so much that he set up the first public library. He invented the lightening rod and made other great discoveries. Ben helped to set up this country and make it free. Do you think Ben would like it if he saw the rights of other fellow trades people stripped away over the years?

I am not allowed to design a heating system in the state of Connecticut for someone else other then my own company. I am not allowed to call myself an Engineer. If I wanted to switch careers I would be rejected without a second look because I don't have a degree. Even if they hired me I would be paid less then my capabilities. College graduates that have less capabilities are given construction mamegement jobs while much more capable trades people are pushed a side.

What about our rights?

I don't want to change. I am happy who I am. I am proud to be a trades person. I was born to build.

John Ruhnke

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Timco

I agree with the formula thing...if there's something better then I am all for it...but you need to get over the fact that without the time in the classroom, you can-not and will-not be allowed to perform the duties of an engineer. Your last post was filled with tears about not being respected. You sound kinda like Tom Cruze when he came home to protesters in born on the 4th after serving. I have always been a tradesman and never felt bad or less than about it. As a journeyman electrician, I am not allowed to engineer (draw for approval) an entire set of plans...but I can make modifications within the parameters of the code. Point: new formula? all for it, please share when appropriate. As for the prejudice thing...sorry, never felt it. I just don't do other people's jobs. My neighbor was a cop growing up all my years, and I have seen each episode, but I still am not a cop. Like all the rest of us, dont change, be happy with who you are, be proud to be a tradesman, keep on building, just don't engineer

Tim

John Ruhnke

Why not?

When I learned to install radiant heating systems I found it hard to learn without making drawings. I mean how do you know if it is right or not? The only way to know is to make a drawing, show it to someone else and have them review your work. The person I showed some of my drawings to is Mike Miller from Tekmar controls. Mike did all of the application drawings for Tekmar. Mike is not an engineer. Mike is a heating technician from Germany. Mike is from the field just like us. Mike turned me on to Microsoft Visio. Mike even gave me some visio drawings I could open up and play with. He gave me some stencils. He encoureged me to do drawings and to learn. I draw my own electrical and mechanical drawings. Even if a electrician does the work I do a drawing for him. It is important for you to be doing full drawings and not just parts of ones. You are working in the field. You are trouble shooting. You see the problems with the designs. You are the best one to make improvements. Pick up your pencil and start drawing because that is the best way to learn. It is still legal for you to draw shop drawings of equipment that you are installing. Stand Tall and be Proud of who you are. Don't let anyone take anything away from you.

JR

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Timco

Engineers learn a lot more than application of correct materials...They learn the principals of water, copper, steel, as well as math and other fields. It has to do with the bigger picture. Just because I was an apprentice, does not mean I was trained to know the physical limitations of all materials I will use in all applications. It sounds like you would excell at going back to a JC or CC and get the credits in the required fields to be a engineer, I do not doubt it, but why not do as your state law says you have to??? That is NOT prejudice...just American. What would your insurance company say if you added engineering to your job title without the education (formal) to back it up? There is a reason for this, and I agree with it. Maybe just get the outline for an engineering cert and see what is required of them. I promise it is not just a conspiracy..

Tim

hr

Get a degree!

Then all you issues with being licensed to "engineer" in your state go away!

Ferris in Michigan offers online HVAC degrees. You might check in with JJ McGough, he was walking that path.

If you had the degree on the wall, and all the actual hands on experience to draw from, you would have the best of both worlds.

Possibly get paid more also.

hot rod

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John Ruhnke

My method of learning works!!

Timco,

I have learned all of that. I entered my drawings in competition with other engineers and contractors. I entered in the system showcase awards for the Radiant Panal Association. I won first place in my category two years in a row. I won judges choice in 2005. Engineers entered drawings in these contests to. An Engineer didn't win judges choice in 2005. My method of learning works. Why should I change?

IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JR

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John Ruhnke

See above P.E. license post

Hot Rod,

See above P.E. license post.

JR

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ALH_4

I agree

I agree completely. If you get the degree, there is nothing more to worry about. And it sounds to me as if you will not be satisfied until you have the degree.

I did it. I finished last year. I never planned to be 29 when I graduated. It took me a while. I took time out of my working life to get an engineering degree because I felt it was important. I learned things there I would have never learned in the field....not just about how things work, but why they work that way. Did my degree teach me how to pipe a Vitodens? Nope. Did it teach me the principles behind that piping? Yes.

-Andrew

tom_49

John, As my brother-in-law the lawyer says:

"The law is the law."

By all your posts I cam see you are more than capable of designing systems. However if the "law" says you cant design systems for someone else , than guess what? You cant!!!! Its the "law".

The degree shows a level of competence. It says you have a certain amount of training from a state accreditted school. If they start letting you design systems for someone else, whats to stop anyone else from designing them. You need the degree.Get it? So get it, or stop complaining.sorry

John Ruhnke

Read above P.E. post

My method of learning works!!!

What is important? I don't need a degree to learn engineering principles. I learn about them every day. I read books and yes I have taken college courses. A degree is not important!!!

Knowledge is important. A variety of knowledge is important.

If I continue my own learning method and learn about energy efficiency which is what I want to focus on now, I will save the world billions of dollars in fuel bills.

Why would I go to college spend four years and get a degree. That is a waste of my talents and it is going to cost the world billions of dollars in fuel bills.

Noone cares or listens. You are all brain washed by society into thinking that college is the only avenue for education. It is not.

You guys just don't get it. I give up. I have made my statements and I am done with this topic now. I need to move on.

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John Ruhnke

The local engineers can't design a good hydronic system......

I worked hard to be the best I can be at radiant design. I have acheived that. So the methods to learn that I used must be good. I didn't pull my knowledge out of thin air. I traveled the country learning I read many books I proved myself. I have gotten three local engineers fired because they couldn't do a proper hydronics design. The clients fired the engineers and hired me. I proved to the clients that I could do a better job. So if that degree is so much better then my knowledge then why don't the local engineers do a better job then me? I never tried to get them fired. I just could not let a poor design go. When the clients realized how poor the design was naturally they fired the engineers.

You can't learn good hydronic design in college. It is not taught there. You have to seek the knowledge from certain books seminars and people. Yes I know of some very good hydronic designers that are engineers. They didn't learn the details of good hydronic design in college. They learned it after college. Yes their knowledge gained from college is valuable. I never said it wasn't. My knowledge that I gained is valuable too.

JR


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tom_49

John, you are obviously very talented and passionate about your work. Have you ever thought of trying to "change the rules".

Why not bring your case to ASHRAE or another similiar organization. Maybe they'll listen.

John Ruhnke

Thank you,

> John, you are obviously very talented and

> passionate about your work. Have you ever thought

> of trying to "change the rules".

>

> Why not bring

> your case to ASHRAE or another similiar

> organization. Maybe they'll listen.





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John Ruhnke

Thank you,

Tom,

Yes Tom I could try and maybe someday I will. Maybe there could be room for a sub license of the P.E. You know a limited license just for hydronic designers. They could have other categories of limited license's too. That way I don't need to study material I am not interested in.

The truth of the matter is that I have no real interest in designing for other people. I enjoy trouble shooting, installation and selling radiant as well as design. I like being involved in the proccess from start to finish. I don't have a real desire to draw for others. I am happy just to do my own stuff. All I want to do here is prove to engineers that we trades people are equals. That is all I want to do and to make people think about the accomplishments of a few simple trades people in our past.

JR



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