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I need a hole...
Comments
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Mark
Is the hole going to have a liner [pipe/PVC]? or just backfilled around your S-R?0 -
No casing...
This is not a water well. The lower 2/3's of the hole will be mostly filled with the 2" copper cricket heat exchanger, and the annulus filled with heat conductive grout. The risers will be insulated with armour flex and spray in expanding foam, and capped with cement for the last foot or so.
Here is a quickly put together graphic depiction...
ME0 -
Area for heat flux
I've been musing about a system like this for two years. I'm worried that your geo heat exchanger only has 15 square feet to conduct 3 tons of heat.
The direction I was heading was to bury a plastic water tank. This one has 156 sq. ft. of effective area for the heat flux, and costs $0.67 per gallon. Of course it needs some foam above it.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Air conditioning needs
Mark,
At your altitude, I don't know what kind of cooling needs you have, but would it be possible to use that waste heat in conjunction with an absorbtion type cooling system?
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Jeff...
My experience with litium bromide absorption chillers is SMALL. My knowledge of how they work could fit in the corner of my eye, and wouldn't bother me. I know it's a phase change material, and if allowed to cool is tough to get moving again. I remember a professor of mine (Dr. George Lof) that taught me solar a hundred years or so ago, talking about a LiBr machine they had, and he said it was not very effective at all. Inasmuch as the high intensity energy is free, I suppose I could use it, just not sure how. Besides, I have an evaporative cooler on my house that works fantastic.
What can you or professor Silberstein tell me about these machines?
ME0 -
Kevin...
The first "cricket" I'm sticking into the hole is strictly to ascertain whether or not it is worth while to dig additional holes. I don't really intend to pull 36,000 btuH out of one hole, although using copper, and the thermal tendencies of clay, it might just suprise you how well the HXer works...
Time will tell...
ME0 -
All done making hole....
Now, just gotta fill the holes with copper holes (AKA pipes)
Could only get to 8'-6" deep on one and 7'-6" deep on the observation hole. Ran into a gravel like substance, which I presume is water bearing strata, and as I stated, I really don't want to be in the water table.
Will have well logged temperature data tomorrow (minus the solar input)
ME
Ps, here's a picture of my new well:-)0 -
When the going gets rough...
the rough invent new fittings :-)
Witness the new David Broome one pipe bypass fitting.
It not only has use as a ground coupled heat exchanger, but could also be built to lay in the drain trenches of carwashes, laundry facilities and other worthwhile waste heat recovery applications.
This fitting will be silver soldered onto a 2" pipe, with the other end completely capped off. Water flows into the 1/2", all the way down near the bottom of the hole, then returns back upward through the annulus to the 3/4" outlet.
Unfortunately for me and my efforts, I no sooner got this picture snapped when a big breeze came up and knocked the fitting down, causing the annealed cap to hit the concrete, thereby bending the cap end/manifold assembly beyond reasonable use...
Better luck tomorrow...
ME0 -
up the ladder to the roof
not with Dianna Ross though
Spent a good portion of yesterday spelunking in the void below our roof and then mountaineering on the top-side. The angle isn't far off from our latitude (easy to slide off - yikes!) and it's true south, so we're good to go in that regard.
I've got a great spot for setting some tanks (under a porch) where they can be enclosed inside an insulated space. Need to find suitable tanks though & so far, I haven't seen any large tanks that'll work. Figgured I'd enclose the tank-farm with SIP panels.
What I'm contemplating is sufficient storage for a three-day run without sun. If I design for a design day, I'll need every one of those gallons (that's if I designed correctly!). Delta-T + gallons = potential output. x24 x3. No doubt I'll back down to a more realistic number before my "partner" approves the budget(G).
I'm planning on starting with our domestic (most likely a 30-tube evac panel). From there, I haven't yet decided if I'll venture into the PV side before the hydronic. Even with a 120-gallon tank, we'll still need to have a means to automatically shed excess Btu's during an absense - like vacations. Either way, I'll need to get both the wet and PV arrays installed prior to years end to qualify for the tax credits. The heat is on(G).
Heat storage has been weighing heavy on my mind. Excess heat is an issue that will (must be) need to be addressed. I saw a new heat-tube design that incorporates an overheat safety & although that looks interesting, I doubt I'd be inclined to rest easy unless I have other means to shift loads.
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Two words...
Photo Shop. Make SURE your partner knows what she's getting in to BEFORE you start the job:-)
You wouldn't want TLL not being on the GREEN side of the house now, would you? :-)
The Viessmann evac tubes have an internal thermal disconnect built into them. Unfortunately, if the load changes after they disconnect, I don't believe they will reconnect until cessation of solar energy.
As for starage, consider EPDM bladder tank with SIP walls. I have an associate here in Denver that builds them that way. He can make HUMONGOUS tanks at a minimal charge. THe tanks require regular maintenance (but, what doesn't) to maintain proper water levels.
We also have a local company that can take 100' of 3/4" type L copper and wrap it around a bending mandrel they have (40 gallon steel tank) to make immersion coil heat exchangers that work really neat for big tanks like that (input as well as output).
Let me know if you need help and I will retreive their data.
When all is said and done, and you get the opportunity to take your first "FREE" solar shower, you will notice that there is something different about showering in water that didn't use any fossil fuels. Can't explain it, you just have to experience it... Leaves you feeling real good all over:-)
ME0 -
sounds like
that mystique radiant comfort grants(G). I can't wait!
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Fascinating. Ever consider asking a geologist about this?
I am absolutely certain you've done your homework, though. From what I understand, you've got a sealed system here, correct? (i.e., you're not putting water into the ground to disperse at its whim via unmapped flow pathways or quasi-diffusion into porous media). The idea then is to warm the earth around the sealed system and extract said heat at a later date?
Keeping in mind that I don't know squat (from a professional standpoint) about heat in the ground, slope stability, groundwater flow paths in Denver, fractures, faults and rock types in Denver, I do know that your average rock has a heat capacity about half that of water, and saturated sand a bit less than the average rock.
Also keeping in mind that this is a pretty neat experiment on a number of levels, care to elaborate for the uneducated?0 -
As a matter of fact...
I did:-) He said the topography of the Denver front range alluvial fan emminating from the Rockies can vary by hundreds of feet with the span of hundreds of feet. Tough one to call. In any case, the hydro drill I was attempting to use to knock on China's door was NOT meant for the conditions in which I had exposed it. Once I got down to the water bearing strata, I could not maintain a high enough water velocity to wash the gravel back up the annulus, which is fine, because I really didn't want to end up in the water with the thermal probe anyway. But, it was an interesting lesson in geology :-)
Now, drilling horizontally thru the upper dirt would NOT be a problem, and if this works as well as I think it may work, I may consider it as a viable long term option...provided that Mrs Eatherton will allow me to move the BFU down stairs, and into the laundry room:-)
ME0 -
Mark
That "BFU" could make one heck of a "CM" (chocolate malted) ;*)
Gordy0 -
Spatial heterogeneity is a many-splendored thing....
So I assume you've stopped above the present water table. Would be interesting to know two things about that water table: 1) what is its vertical variability over the course of, say, a year or four; and 2) what is its horizontal velocity. Both might be significantly affected by seasonal snowfall (and depending on flow velocity, point of entry into the groundwater system, etc. it might be last year's snowfall or ten years ago's snowfall).
I recall reading above that you hit a clay layer. That could be a good "confining unit" to put an upper bound on vertical variations. If you go horizontal, you might try to stay within or above that (quick guess, would need to think more on that and see the downhole stratigraphy in more detail -- free opinion if you want one).
The latter problem could really bite you, though. Depending on the head, porosity, etc. of your alluvial fan, you might have feet to tens of feet of flow per day. Having cold groundwater moving perpetually past your heat injection system would really steal your heat, maybe even faster than you'd make it.
This is neat.0 -
downhole data
Mark,
Most new homes in the area require a soil report for the foundation engineering. Lately these cost me $450, including the two holes (front yard and back yard) about 25 ft. deep. This data should be helpful to the geosource heat system designer.
The report indicates the water table depth, but my building sites have been seeing variation from 12-25ft depth, and it can change monthly. The flow rate of the groundwater would be outside the scope of this report.
For new construction at least, the soil test guys could run a few extra holes for very little extra.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Rob...
Thank you kindly for the offer. Yes, I did stop once I hit potentially water bearing strata. In fact, just to be safe, I'm going to dump a plug of cement into the bottom of the hole to make SURE I don't see any water in the hole.
As for seasonal variatons, we are in the midst of a big 7 year drought, and I would expect the shallow water table to have subsided.
As for velocityu, the Denver Federal Center was part of a study of ground water migration, adn to be honest with yoyu, I did not pay any attention to it because I am not interested from my point of view. Now, if I were actually TRYING to hit a moving aquifer, which is beneficial to GSHP system, I'd probably have paid better attention to it.
The upper layers around here are pretty much clay, with the lower layers a sand loam mix. Not the most conductive, but when the energy is free, who worried about perfection:-)
And yes, you are correct. If the water table does rise, and gets anywhere near my project, it WILL wick the enrgy I'm putting in the hole away. At that point, I have a very inexpensive solar collector cooling system:-)
Time will tell. I will be in Las Vegas with the Uponor crew this weekend, and cooking with nukes the next weekend, so it may be a while before I get my project up and running. With school ending soon, I willl have one more week night that I can use to expedite the project.
Stay tuned, and thanks for your inquiry and offer to help.
ME0 -
Thanks Kevin...
It's a start. Our actual GSHP holes generally run about 200 feet deep. SO long as their not hitting bed rock, a rotary rig will generally do the trick. If they have to go through rock, the cost doubles, along with the noise.... We generaly pay around $8 per linear foot for the hole, tube and grout. One hole per ton of capacity.
ME0 -
Let the second solar harvest begin...
FINALLY!
After putting up with ZERO energy due to a lack of thyroids, and other health near misses, I finally go the system installed to pump sunshine where it hasn't been seen in over million (give or take a few thousand years) years.
The solar array consist of 4 each 3 X 7 flat plate solar panels connected to the copper cricket 2" ID X 6 feet long heat exchanger, whcih is firmly grouted (cemetitious) firmly into the bowels (10' deep hole) of mother earth, with the annulus between the top of the heat exchanger and the surface of the earth filled with blow foam (Great Stuff!) to lessen unwanted heat deposition.
Let the data logging begin...
THis has actually been a LONG experiment on my part with failures (anticipated) and trial by fire (unanticipated) all along the way. Read on for more information...
ME0 -
How NOT to pipe a solar array...
Let me give a caveat here. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME EVEN WITH ADULT SUPERVISION...
In my haste for knowledge, I attempted to utilize a bunch of excess 5/8" PEX for my collector loop. It held up great during normal operations and actually saw temperatures approaching 230 degrees F wtih flow and 30 PSI with no signs of failure. That was when I was runnig the system pump 24/7 in my quest to diagnose the thermal performance of the copper heat exchanger. Problem came when I put a solar differential controller on the whole shebang. For whatever reason, the system shut down during a period of relatively high solar insolation. When the pump started back up again, it hit the PEX with 350 degree F temperatures, and WYSIWYG.
Point being, and I think HR beat me to the end results of this experiment, DO NOT USE PEX in the solar loop. It is GUARANTEED to fail at some point in time...
ME0 -
Old Sparky...
That's what I lovingly refer to the FREE Gfos 1518SU circulator that came with the solar array.
Shortly after having had installed the temperature differential controller, I walked out to the system to see how the harvest was going, and found the system circulator off. I checked, the controller had power. I put the control into the manual on position, still nothing. That's when I noticed the loose wires inside the controller. I dropped the power, snugged up the screw terminal connections, turned the system power back on and heard this gawd awful electrical noise outside of the shed that houses the control. Looked around the corner to see the 1518SU belching FIRE. Not just a few sparks, we're talking FLAME THROWER here. I quickly shut down the controller, then went outside to extinguish the residual blaze that was still going on inside the pumps junction box.
Upon further exam, I still have no idea what caused the little circulator to turn into a flaming pump, but I am sure glad I was standing there when it happened, because if I hadn't been standing there, I am certain that I would have come home to a home burnt to the ground, caused by "Defective solar pump". Another wild and crazy Eatherton experiment gone bad...:-)
Just goes to show you, you get what you pay for...
ME0 -
Upward and onward....
or would that be downward and inward...
What my prelimnary data is showing me is that I ened one **** of a lot more heat exchanger in the ground to accomodate the solar arrays heat generating capcity. I kind of knew that going in, but thought it would be a great idea to try driving a tack with a slegde hammer for a while just to get an idea of the relative thermal efficiency of not only the copper heat exchanger, but also the ground into which I am dumping all these free btu's. I have data loggers all over the system and one stationed vertically 5 feet away from the vertical heat exchanger to record mother earths reaction to my pouring heating into her bountiful grounds.
Time to sit back and watch and wait and make plans to drill another hole and drop another heat exchanger into the mix.
In the mean time, heres a picture for the likes of Christian Egli and Frank Wilsey. This is what happens when you hand fill a hot stagnated array near the noon hour...
This stuff CAN be dangerous if improperly handled. It's amazing what a 350 degree F absorber will do to a fluid...
Enjoy!
ME0 -
I bet That woke the neighbours up:)))
POW! 'That crazy plumber Again!')) 0 -
It would probably explain why my dogs refuse to go outside...
and are REAL skitish near the solar collector array:-)
I'm sure it probably not only made noise, but probably had a pretty good flash of steam to go along with it.
As a matter of fact, it did re-cross link the PEX tubing into the shape I had installed it instead of the shape it wanted to be when it was extruded and rolled.
ME0 -
Right you are
it is as you say*~/:)
it has a heck of a memory:))) and wont soon forget it:))
i am Manic these days the stress is overwhelming:)0 -
I remember seeing a storage system that used a pit, insulated with as much foam as you need, lined with plastic, filled with heat exchange pipes and mud. Capped with plastic and foam. It was actually integrated into the floor of a greenhouse.
Keep it moist for proper heat transmission.
Functionally equivalent to a buried, insulated tank but probably cheaper per cubic yard and BTUs. An insulated storage mass is probably cost effective.0 -
btu/h in ground?
what are you finding is the rate of btu's into the ground?
does it seem to be changing? I'm guessing it might be harder harder to push heat into a local area?
what do you figure is the size of your heat 'battery'?0 -
Based on data loggers...
2.25 GPM, and a 5 degee delta T, that equates to around 5,600 btuH from the solar array going into the hole.
However, the system suffers from thermal constipation. The one heat exchanger I am using is geting some REAL hot fluids at peak insolation, but the collectors are not performing well due to this problem. Am making plans for a third hole for additional heat exchange rcapacity.
To be honest, other than looking at the seasonal surface impact, I've not yet looked to see what I'm actually "storing" in the ground yet. Maybe in the next few weeks I can take a peek into the monitoring well and see if there is any build up yet.
ME0 -
What ever
happened to the thermal storage project? I met a fellow at our last loacl RPA dinner meeting who was considering a solar option to help his geothermal heat pump whose slinkys the contractor did not bury deep enough. By Feb he has 28 degree water. He's thinking of using solar to charge the ground back up. An interesting idea. Made me think of this thread. What happened. WW
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8ft hole?
looks like you only got to 8'6", so I;m guessing that the smaller surface area of your excharge is slowing down transfer?
how far is your observation hole from the heat hole?
how long have you been pumping heat?
delta T at 5F seems like a problem.
Edit;
did I understand right, you couldn't go deeper because of gravel extraction problems?
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Correctomundo
THe heat exchanger is about 4' of 2" copper pipe with 1/2" S&R lines.
I intentionally quit when I hit water bearing (potentially) strata. We're just coming out of a long drought, and I do NOT want this process to take place where the aquifer may draw heat away from the bubble.
Have only been pumping heat solidly for one week.
DT of 5 degrees is what it is for the existing conditions. The array consists of 4 solar panels at approximatley 24 square feet each. The DT is not only indicative of the HXer performance, but also indicative of the grounds thermal performance as well. The HXer is grouted into the bottom of the hole with cementitious grout to enhance its contact with the surrounding area.
Observation hole is 5 feet away from first HX hole, and second HX hole will be 5 feet away from observation well as well.
Stay tuned...
ME0 -
Austin Coil
is The Man.. and Mr. Force knows he'd be nowhere today without the brain trust he has assembled. 500 cubic inches on nitromethane (85% and counting) = 8000 horsepower.. totally awesome and awe inspiring. Gotta love Friday nights under the lights. Usually go to Englishtown and Maple Grove. Pomona next week ..
Rock-on!0 -
so,
do i have this right:
2inch heat exchanger, 4 ft long dissipating 5600btu'/h?
thats rather impressive i think.
i could see where going into the gravel may have slow transfer even more, though you would have made it up a bit by the initial propose HX lenght.
look forward to hearing more, whats the supply temp you are pumping into the ground?0 -
You got it..
but bear in mind the differentials. The ground is 45 degrees F or there abouts, and the solar fluid is as high as 220 degrees F. Driving a small tack with a large sledge hammer.
Here are some screen shots of this weeks data logging. This can be intrepreted in any of a million different ways.
It does however appear that the system is having a positive influence on the earth temperatures, even 5 feet away from the HXer, which is a good thing to see. Bear also in mind, that other than night sky re-radiation, I am not extracting anything out of the "battery".
ME0 -
Just look up
The thread's alive, but indented a little strange...There was an error rendering this rich post.
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