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I need a hole...
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Posts: 1,160
Funny how we think we're the only one thinking of a certain idea, then you find out you're not alone in your ways of thinking...
If they were to incorporate a GSHP into the mix, they'd be able to do 100% of thier heating with solar.
Excellent project. Thanks for the link.
BTW, the going got real tough last night. 3 hours for 4 feet. I'm into some REAL tight clay. Provided I can stay away from the water table, it should make for some EXCELLENT thermal storage conditions. At this rate, I AM starting to reconsider the depths though....
ME
If they were to incorporate a GSHP into the mix, they'd be able to do 100% of thier heating with solar.
Excellent project. Thanks for the link.
BTW, the going got real tough last night. 3 hours for 4 feet. I'm into some REAL tight clay. Provided I can stay away from the water table, it should make for some EXCELLENT thermal storage conditions. At this rate, I AM starting to reconsider the depths though....
ME
0
Comments
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Not just any hole....
This hole needs to be about 30 feet long. It needs to be approximatley 3" in inside diameter.
Oh, did I mention that this hole needs to be vertical, and the top of the hole needs to be flush with the surface of the ground?
Did I also forget to mention that this hole needs to be in my back yard and that access is limited to devices less than 36" in width?
Did I also forget to mention that Mrs Eatherton is not aware of ANY of this and that I'm trying to give it to her for mothers day (SHHHHhhh).
Come to think of it, I could use TWO holes. Both within 5 to 10 feet of each other.
Got any suggestions?
Now, you may ask, "What the heck is he going to do with these holes??"
Stay tuned:-)
ME0 -
I saw the answer
On the news today.
I hear they work cheap too.
Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
Dynamite
That will do the trick, if things don't explode before.
I have friends whose heating installation involved a flying peanut butter jar. He wanted the geothermal setup, she wanted something else for mother's day... and it wasn't just a rhetorical debate.
Good luck, unless of course your special hole is for planting a flower bed. Oh you romantic you.
0 -
well,...if you got a strong back or real thick neck:))
@5; pieces of 2X1/2"galvi a bunch of Drive couplers and a Two foot nipple drill a post hole deep with a two man post hole driller get a gravel point couple it to the 5 foot piece of pipe and drop it in the slot,back fill pour water around the pipe tamp it down with a sledge hamma pour some water down the pipe hook an new drive couple on the end of another pipe and set to hammer jacking the pipe into the ground have a couple pipe wrenches of stout demeanor and a few extra drive couplings,....
every time you get the pipe pounded down you twist the drive couple off put on a new coupling and bang another 5 feet into the ground...thats a fairly easy way with 2" and 1&1/2 or 1"&1/4 i am not certain about 2& ahalf though...
OR you could get someone to drive up set a hole down with a truck that pounds the pipe into the ground and call it good ...as long as You or the fair lady doesnt have to listen to it all day
0 -
This sounds
more like a fathers day present.
Carry On.
Scott
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check with
your locxal well drilling company..they might know who or how..
Mitch0 -
How much are you willing to spend
I'm working on a ECR DX system and they are drilling 3" holes with a Bobcat mounted rig out of Arkansas.
I believe the operators brother has a rig in Colorado also.
Probably a bit wide for your entrance? But they do make some cranes that could place that rig in your back yard
hot rod
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Money IS an object...
So is noise...
I'm still working on it. Too bad you're not my next door neighbor. We could be done and testing it by now:-)
BTW, the brother you're referring to is Sam Bandemere. Anyone who follows drag racing is familiar with that name. The Mile High Nationals are held at Bandemere Speedway up by Red Rocks...He has an intersting tool called the Urban Assault vehicle for drilling those ECR holes. Too wide for my gate:-(
ME0 -
I've got this big gun............
But the problem is rigging the thing up so it's plumb and square with the earth. The recoil tends to mess up the jig holding it square rendering the prospect of repeatable holes rather dim. Assembly in a confined space is also a pain because of the 9 foot barrel length. Homeland Security takes a rather sour view of shipping the thing through the mail or UPS also. This means I'd probably have to drive it out there myself and with the cost of fuel these days, they would be pretty pricey holes. One other minor detail is the fact that the depleted uranium, tungsten coated projectile would be impossible to retrieve from the bottom of the hole. But hey, if you're using this for some sort of heating project..........a little extra radioactivity probably wouldn't hurt down there. Depth control is also an issue so I'll have to know what soil types are present in your backyard in order to assemble the proper powder charge.
Oh, April Fool's is only one day?0 -
Steve and Mark....
There is a solution....albeit a bit on the noisy side.
Isn't there a bomb wing in the area? A little laser teaser....and VIOLA. Who cares about that 36" gate? I bet they can even do it without the depleted uranium ! (You DO pay taxes...right?) Heck, I say you insist ! JM2Cents...... Good luck. Chris
Oh yeah...The neighbors might get a bit upset, so don't tell em!0 -
Is the front yard an option?
more choices that way.
I wonder how large of a hole those directional boring machines do. I see them drilling under roadways and intersections around here all the time. Fairly small Ditch Witch machines.
Might catch one of those guys during an off duty moment
The rig that is drilling that job I mentioned is drilling at an angle from a pit in the back yard. Half the holes go under the home, the other half angle to the back yard.
2-1/2" holes 100 feet deep. Takes about 2 hours per hole. They say 150' per ton.
hot rod
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Hot Rod,
The very first ECR job we did had the pit in a flower bed. Dan Bandimere, the guy that is doing your drilling, is who we use as well. His rig is really handy to get in tight places.
Tom Atchley0 -
Noise? money?
Maybe pressurized forced water blasting? >> depending on soil conditions>>> We have dont this for pylons on docks and floats >> just a thought0 -
Noise? money?
ooops0 -
Too big for...
UPS... Union rules and all on weight and girth restrictions... Besides, I think there is a restrictive covenant in my neighborhood regard the use of nuclear devices :-( But hey, thanks for thinking of me in any case:-)
ME0 -
By jove...
I think you've GOT IT!
A small, portable electric hydraulic/electric drilling rig for VERTICAL application. NOw, I can move it into the back yard through my skinny gate and poke holes to my hearts content.
What AM I going to do with all those 30' deep holes???
Stay tuned...
ME0 -
Behold the power of....
UNISTRUT!
Cost of 1/2 HP 5 speed induction motor drill press, $75.00
Cost of double back uni strut (FREE) thanks to aerial job.
Cost of miscellaneous items to put it all together, $100.00
Look on wifes face when she saw what I'd been working on...priceless!
"You're going to do WHAT with that thing???"
It's bulb planter honey:-) (Will bulbs grow from 30 feet deep???)
I stand ready to make hole cap'n.
Aye Aye Scotty, let's take 'er down!
More to come...
Njoy.
ME0 -
Man That sure looks like a new invention*~/:)
Trust me on this one. Make Sure that no gas lines oil tanks electrical services telecommunication fiber optic Government communication for D.O.D. lines are hidden beneath your yard..Forced sewer mains water mains fire hydrant thrust blocks)) ok Salt water mains Petrochemical transmission lines,Nat gas mains,water laterals Coal slurrification lines underground abandoned coal shafts ,abandonded sewer tanks,oil tanks and the like are not lurking beneath the surface 0 -
I'm curious
What are these holes for Mark??? WW
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Thought someone would NEVER ask Wayne...
I've been leaving little hints here and there, hoping someone would ask, but they never did, until now. Thanks for asking!
As you can see from the first photo, I've got my new Second Harvest Solar system (recycled) mounted on the roof. I've not pitched them upwards yet, but they are on the roof and their feet are firmly planted. I'm still waiting for my Amtrol 120 gallon dual coil tank to arrive. Should be here any day now. I've oversized the array in relation ship to the load AND storage tank. In other words, my storage tank will typically be maxed out on a good sunny day at around 180 degrees F before noon, and I'll still have 4 to 6 hours of useable sun falling on the face of the panels.
My options to keep the fluid cool, and from turning into glycolic acid are few. I could install a large fan coil unit and cool the panels that way, OR...I could stick those excess BTU's where the sun DON'T shine, that being in the bottom of the hole!
My hope is that I am no where near the ground water table at 30' deep. If that is the case, I should be able to build a rather extensive "bubble" of low grade heat in the earth at that point. It's what I refer to as S.E.S.S.S.S., pronounced SESSSS. It stands for shallow earth seasonal solar storage system. As the super hot fluid (180 degrees +) is circulated down hole, it will come into contact with the P.I.T.T. This is a 2" copper pipe, approximatley 20 feet long with a cap on one end, and a 2 X 3/4 X 3/4 tee on the other end. The branch fitting will have a 3/4" street el silver soldered into it, with a 10' piece of 3/4" copper rising to the ground level. The stop in the run of the tee will be drilled out and approximatley 19 feet of 3/4" tubing inserted all the way inside of the 2" pipe and silver soldered into place. Then 3/4" copper tube coupled on that that run back up to the surface. This is the P.I.T.T., which stands for "point internal thermal transfer" unit. I will insulate the leaders going to the PITT with 3/4" thich Armourflex, and will grout the PITT into the bottom of the hole using a loose slurry of thermally enhanced grout in the annulus between the 2-5/8" OD of the PITT and the 3" ID of the SESSSS. I then will insulate the upper annulus' with Great Stuff polyurethane foam.
These lines will then extend back to the mechanical room where I will install my 120 gallon solar DHW preheat/space heating tank with the dual coils, and my new Climate Master 3 ton water to water heat pump.
My "new" heating system will be three stage. First stage is solar. If the tank is hot enough, I will use VSPI controller to trickle energy out of the Amtrol tank into the heating loop. Once that resource is exhausted (140 degrees F), then I go to the heat pump. The heat pump will draw heat from the SESSS, maintaining an artificially high COP of better than 4:1. Once (IF) that stage is exhausted, I bring my modcon T-50 Munchkin on line. This way, I am using THE most efficient means of energy available to me to limit my carbon foot print upon the face of the earth.
This is all predicated on the belief that I will be well above the ground waters upper limit (~20' or greater), if not, it'll make GREAT cooling tower to help keep my panels cool and avoid short term fluid degradation.
If it works, I may have altered the way people do solar and space heating. The biggest problem with solar, is that when you need it the most, you get it the least, and then when you need it the least, you get it the most. This will eliminate that problem completely, allowing whole homes to be "solar heated" with energy stored in the ground, harvested year round, hence the name Second Harvest.
It may also address another problem that has yet to raise its ugly head, that problem being, "What ARE we going to do with all the thermal energy that these hydrogen fuel cells generate when they are making electricity?" If you can not utilize 100% of the thermal output capcity of these new technologies, the net efficiency sucks and can approach 40%, which is only slightly better than the carbon belching power plants that we are currently connected to.
The "Big Frikin' Unit", as my wife calls it, is portable enough to be taken down stairs, and is just short enough to be stood up in an 8 foot tall basement to allow the drilling of thermal storage wells in the basements of existing homes. If the water table is too shallow, the B.F.U. can be laid horizontal and the holes drilled side ways to create your own shallow earth storage system. It can be used directionally, and the PITT placed beneath sidewalks or drive ways to assist in the melting of snow.
And, if nothing else, I just made my brother, the other plumber from the same mother, an EXTREMELY happy man, because he uses the borit tool for replacing water services all the time, and he dreads it because it is SO hard on his back, having to manage the drill bit and stem, all while hanging on to a monster drill motor...
For more information of the borit tool, go to www.borit.com
And NOW you know the rest of the story...
PS, I plan on drilling a second hole approximatley 5 feet away from the first hole and planting 4 sensors between the bottom, middle and top. Will do the same thing in the PITT hole too so I can actually log the changes in soil temperature and model the "bubble".
Have a happy Easter/Passover my friends. I'm going to go surround myself with beautiful women...
ME0 -
Boring logs
Mark can ya get your hands on some boring logs, that may have been taken for a project close by, so you know what you are up against? Maybe you are in operation incognito, and don't want to draw attention to yourself.
Hope you don't hit cobble that sucks. Been drilling cassions at work 2' dia. running sand at tip elevation, and cobble.
I like this idea. That dump zone (bubble) could get rather sizable over the summer months if soil conditions permit.
I'll bet your neighbors look perplexed all the time.
Gordy
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My neighbors...
think I'm some kind of whacky professor anyway:-). "He's ALWAYS up to somethin'", but they also understand that the majority of my research is for energy conservation, so they pretty much ignore me...
I understand that I have no idea what I may get into as far as soil structure is concerend. I'm not too worried about it where my house is located, but given the strange geology of the Denver Metro Front Range area, it COULD pose significant barriers to the use of the B.F.U.
But where theres a will, there IS a WAY...
Unfortunately, the city and county of Denver proper does not allow wells for domestic water purposes, so there are no logs available in the immediate area. THe closest I may find would be a caison drillers log, and they're usually pretty guarded with that data. May have to figure it out on my own. I'll save samples from down hole every 5 feet or so just for my records.
ME
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Got 'er covered Weez...
However, when I was in the rental equipment business, what seems like a hundred years ago, a customer had called for underground utility identification prior to renting and using a 2 man gas powered post hole digger. He and his neighbor were putting up a fence between their yards. THe area they were digging was completely void of any markings, so they started making hole, when lo and behold, they hit something, and that something had about a 100 pairs of real little wires in it. THey figured it must have been an abandoned line, and kept working. Shortly thereafter, a WHOLE bunch of uniformed guys with guns drawn showed up in his back yard and told him to drop the auger and back away from the hole. Seems it was a transcontinental cable and it had a few REALLY important pairs of wires in it, including the missle launch wires between Cheyenne Mountain and Warren Airforce base...
They set up security and a tent and worked for 48 hours straight repairing all the damage they'd done. When they got done, they gave him a bill for over $1,000,000.00 for cable repairs and cable down time. To the best of my knowledge, there is still a $1,000,000.00 lien on the guys house...
He never did get his fence done:-(
ME0 -
Proffes
You could be my whacky neighbor anytime! Love sperimentin.
Gordy0 -
Yikes! That could ruin the guys Day *~/:)
fiber optic cable was hit out in front of my buddies insurance agentcy when he had contracted to have a new side walk put in, the phone company had been out along with the city water and sewer works guys for locates....short story, shut the town down for many many hours...beee Careful locates are "relative" 0 -
The first 5 feet....
didn't go as easy as I'd thought it would...
Tree roots made for tough drilling conditions, causing the bit to waller all over the place. Am still getting chunks of tree root up even at 5 foot depth. Also found a need to"tweak" the frame of the BFU, kinda thought I would but not to worry...
Enough work for today. The "hole" enchilada can wait until later...
ME0 -
Just remembered...
There used to be a company that sold small bore water well drilling rigs that advertised in Pop Mech's, Mother Earth, et al. They drilled, IIRC, a 3" hole.
Couple grand though.
Maybe there's an attachment for a DR brush mower
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Portable drill Rigs
Check out www.deeprock.com . Maybe some units availble for rent0 -
-
I checked those guys out in my research efforts...
Although effective in outdoor situations, it would KILL you in an inside setting from carbon monoxide from the gas powered engine.
Besides, why buy someting off shelf when you can build it yourself?:-)
Of course, I guess I could electrocute myself if I'm not real careful. Got the BFU and vac plugged into GFCI protection unit just to be on the safe side.
ME0 -
Gotta pic of that mini caisson drillin auger?
Gordy0 -
earth storage
Have you checked out the Drake's Landing project in Alberta. Canada? - www.dlsc.ca - much the same as what you are doing. Good luck with your project. I am currently doing research/design for my own solar dhw/space htg. system for my house, with an eye to sales/installation.0 -
Wondering
I was kinda wondering what your thoughts were on the chosen depth of 30'? Just curious if you were banking on a certain type of soil at said depth. Or is it to keep the "thermal bubble" well below the frost line in the winter.
Gordy0 -
You got it...
trying to keep the bubble well below surface influence.
Also, I'd show you a picture of the drill tip, but its in the bottom of the hole. If you go to borit.com they have some good photos of it.
I'm using the 3 inch version. Heres a copy of a photo from their site.
ME0 -
Slick tool Mark
But it looks like its more oriented for horizontal boring applications from the video. How are you getting the spoil out of the hole using it in a vertical application?.....let me guess, where theres a will....theres away:-)
Gordy0 -
My Question also
BY the look of the 3" PVC next to the hole, I assume your flushing it out with water ?? If so, were you to bore in a customers basement would you power vac. it up ??
Mark , whats to stop the thermal bubble from disapating over a period of time ?
Scott
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echo
One of my thoughts too. Seems like it's going to be a thermal dump zone to some extent and was one method I've been considering for my own solar project since I'm designing for 100%+. I've been following this thread closely ME and wondered about your water table issues. I'd be wet by 30' and maybe that's not such a bad idea for shedding excess Btu's. When we built our home, we hit the water table (underground springs) and, unfortunately for us that was the last of the footers being dug, had to raise the entire home 2'. Can't have disturbed soil n footer trenches, so we've got 30" thick concrete footers! Ouch$$$.
Near as I can finger, I'm looking at 2,000 gallons for storage.
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Hydraulics, compressesed air and vacuum Gordy
Initially, I am only using water flowing through the drill stem to keep the mud moving up the hole. I keep the vac located at thte hole outlet to keep the spoils from going everywhere, especially where I'm working. Eventually, I will hook compressued air into the smae water ihlet in the stem and "help" the fines along with a big bubble, and if need be, also help that along with a vacuum (6-1/2 HP).
Am also prepared to use a "mucking stick" if need be. THat is, a 2" x 10' long piece of plastic pipe with a foot valve on the bottom that can be lowered into the hole, into the water, open the valve, thereby sucking in mud and muck, closing the valve and hauling it to the surface to be emptied. I guess I may have forgotten to mention that in my youth, I spent 2 summers drilling wells for friends up in the mountains using a "yo-yo" well drilling rig.
Great fun!
ME0 -
Absolutley Scott...
If I were to go either vertical or horizontal, I would throw in the cost of a large suck truck similar to what they use on the horizonal boring jobs to take care of the water and cuttings. As for bubble dissipation, I am guessing that as long as I am not near the water table (wicking) that I will be able to sustain a pretty good ball of energy. Bear in mind what it is costing me energy wise to build and maintain this bubble. THe cost of the energy is miniscule compared to the energy I am storing and harvesting using the GSHP. I doubt I'll ever be able to directly extract useable heat (140 degrees F plus) from the storage system, hence the need for the GSHP to maximize output. If I were to stop putting heat into the hole, then yes, it would dissipate.
It's all experimental at this point, and it could be a major failure, but what the heck, until I try, no one will ever know... If it works, it could revolutionize thermal storage for solar,hydrogen fuel cell, and CHP technologies.
ME0 -
Dave...
That is one BIG storage tank, or group of paralleled tanks... Obvioulsy driven by a MONSTER solar array. Using the R.O.T. of 1-1/2 to 2 gallons per sq foot of array, you'll be planting around 1300 square feet of array?
That puppy is going to COOK during summer stagnation. You could set up a car wash in your back yard and not run out of hot water... I've personally witnessed absorber temperatures of 350 degrees at peak insolation with no flow. Get's kinda scary with closed loop systems. You can hear the antifreeze burbling and boiling in the absorber plate. If it's drain back, and for whatever reason the control decides to fire the system back up again, the steam kick when the fluid hots the hot absorber is enough to make you think a plane has crashed into the roof of your dwelling. Dissipation avoids ALL of this at minimal parasitic costs. And if it works out right, you could extract it from the ground later in the heating season at an elevated COP...
You could go horizontal for SESSS and vertical for cooling. The nice thing about this technology is that the same piping used for delivery is the same pipe line for extraction. On horizontal, if need be, you could bury 2" of XPS to isolate the upper portion of the SESSS from surface influence.
That, or you could do like some jobs I've seen and slap a B.A. fan coil on it and blow it out into the atmosphere, which makes absoultely no sense to my mind, by then again, my mind works differently than most...:-)
Keep us posted, and don't fall off the roof like I ALMOST did.
ME0
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