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Danfoss Panel Install
Comments
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hydronics rocks!!!...
thats why the creator covered the earth with 4/5ths water - which will soak up all the human sins even a nuclear winter
remember - before Dave Letterman's top-ten-list there was the creator's top-ten-list, well, lets take a look as it, "thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not phornicate...", with such an opinion of us, the creator sure wasnt going to design a planet for us to destroy forthwith!!
that why i dont worry about the ozone layer much - the oceans including all the water vapor in the air take care of everything
like i said hydronics rocks!!! heating or cooling!!
we can though, wipe each other out, thats why i believe we must go to the stars - or there wont even be a memory left of us one day - NASA is severely under funded!!!
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bottom line...
unless you have very skilled AND inexpensive labor, AND can readily get parts at max discount, the Danfoss panels will improve your bottom line with very little compromise on function, and zero on quality, and since they do some custom also, I would ask before I condemn!!
I set them this pdf for a quote on the modules to the left in the pdf0 -
bottom line...
unless you have very skilled AND inexpensive labor, AND can readily get parts at max discount, the Danfoss panels will improve your bottom line with very little compromise on function, and zero on quality, and since they do some custom also, I would ask before I condemn!!
I set them this pdf for a quote on the modules to the left in the pdf0 -
Absolutely
I agree with all of your comments including too much time spent with the Bean. Our hunting trips are interesting to say the least. A little bit of hunting mixed with a lot of thinking.
Tim D.0 -
I find the
last sentence in your post GMM, insulting. Some of us have taken our craft up without the need of pre fabbed boxes. Is there a place for this product? Without a doubt. But don't condemn what you haven't seen. Custom built panels will always have a place in our craft. And why would the bottom line be better by using pre-fab? One thing that this site has taught me is to price for what I produce. And not all of us take on every job that is offered. Some of us enjoy being able to have the time to craft and enjoy our work!
Leo G
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ok - lets assume that there is a perfect fit panel...
and you build it yourself and must charge the customer more - would that bother your you? - it would bother me the customer is not paying you to enjoy yourself,
so, you must balance, pride, enjoyment, supportability, function, performance, and economy, and you have to admit that somewhere in all of the above, there IS a place for the Danfoss panels
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.
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Leo-
My comments are for the poor home owner who has paid $$$
for a system that shud work and then has to pay more $$$
to fix it.
I have seen many systems that had to be totally redone.
There is always the 973 rule.
3% are very capable of designing and installing Cadillac
sytems.
By the way that shud be a Cadillac Engine.
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the great debate continues
A terrific debate on a subject that can have no clear winner. As long as the human race exists there will never be unanimous agreement on every thing.
However some times in our zest to defend our position we belittle the other side. Lets not do that in this forum. As an industry, radiant has a long way to go to be the heating system of choice for the consumer. As long as we all work in that direction we should all win.
Let me just re enforce that contractors who dont install panels are not necessary poor businessmen, nor are contractors who use panels poor tradesmen.
First of all no poor tradesman would buy a panel. They dont have enough knowledge to understand the value contained in a panel. They dont have the knowledge to select a correct panel.
Second, panels are successfully applied to small 1 zone jobs as well as jobs containing multiple zones, multiple temperatures, floor heating, radiation, fan coils etc. They should not limit your ability or your imagination. Consider them Lego Blocks. From Lego blocks you can create anything from a house to a space ship.
Although this debate is centered on contractors and panels, panels were also created with the consumer in mind. In the long run, creating a consumer friendly system good for the business, even for those who build their own panels.
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Kal, that
is the thing, I don't understand this bit about boxes saving the contractor or homeowner bundles of money. I have cost analysed our custom panels to some of the pre-fabbed, and in most cases we can produce them for less cost. And in actuality, we save money when we install them, because they are designed for that particular room/closet/etc. job. We do not have to make the job fit the pre-fabs. But aside from the cost, our customers expect to have something like the pictures we show them when we are negotiating. Most people we have had contact with, love the look of our panels. That is one of our bigger selling features. And I have said that there is definitaly a place for pre-fabs. We just find that for us, the custom panels are the right choice for both us and our partners on most occasions.
Also I find this arguement comparing appliances to boiler rooms to be a bit specious. I don't know about your part of the world, but where we live, there are now more"custom" appliances available then you can shake a stick at. I find that at this point in time, people want there things to be "unique". My lord, claw foot tubs are back in huge demand! People fly to Italy now to pick out their own piece of marble or granite, or lately slate for their roofs!
The other thing that I have learned on this site, is don't tell your customer what they can or cannot afford. That is up to them to decide. And thank God, there are still a lot of these people out there that appreciate a great craftsman!!!
Leo G0 -
very true Mr. Bill
and yes we do use pre-fabs. Just usually not in the boiler room. I mean quite often we will install Ipex headers to save time on multi loop/zone manifolds. (now if they could only figure out a better way of wiring the telestats... or if your interested in my idea for the wiring solution to these damned things, drop me an e-mail).
I was actually just going through the Ipex catolgue a few minutes ago, looking to see if we could find the headers in a box, with all the wiring terminals in, and guess what? They have one!!!!!!!!
So yes, pre-fab and custom do get inter-mingled on our jobs, but as I stated above, most of our clients expect a custom panel for the boiler room! And I still feel that our panels have an advantage over the pre-fabbed in most cases!
Leo G
Leo G0 -
Thanx for the clarification GMM
And yes we have lost bids to these same people. Funny thing is is how many of these people still end up with one of our panels, when they realize that their "good deal" just wasn't so.
Leo G0 -
There you go
Got to agree with you Leo, man after my own heart I think.
Dale0 -
Tim
I shouldn't have to point out that buildings are not cars. If we all wanted to live in modified Grain Bins then we could design a mechanical room that fit every single one.
Dale0 -
*~/8) i am incognito ....
see no one can recognize me in these cool new shades i got from Mark ...so while iam here i asked about these valves i am wanting to say over 20 years ago ...soma beach they take along time to get here... my most recent recollection was about three years ago,...the summer after that,...last summer...two months ago...couple weeks back...honestly. i think i ought to simply designe one and mine the ore...:)))0 -
Another compliment
I just got back from a customer who we re-did their boiler room last spring. They have a 1 pipe monoflo T system. I was telling her about this discussion, and she said that they have a client from SoCal, who is a mechanical engineer. When she was walking him from the office t the house proper, they had to go through the mechanical room. Well she said he stopped dead in his tracks and would not leave for about half an hour. He was totally taken by our work!
That is why I love being in this craft!
Leo G0 -
No charge...
Some materials from my research
At a recent National Association of Home Builders conference, Impact Presentations Group co-founder Mark Goldstein laid it on the line ."According to a recent AARP report, the top 25 percent of the boomer group has a median income of $100,000 and a median net worth of $360,000, putting them well ahead at this stage than the previous generation. Some of that cash will definitely be spent on new homesand appliances and accessories that come with it. Several dozen suppliers were here, eager to show builders the latest in comfort and efficiency. There were overstuffed chairs that lift and recline, pedestal washers and dryers that feature angled baskets and enlarged doors, refrigerators with large, pull out bottom freezers and stovetop ranges that feature front controls for the folks in wheelchairs."
My comments :When an over stuffed chair has become the definition of 'comfort and efficiency' you know we're not going in the right direction...have a seat - here's more:
From the National Older Adult Housing Survey, 2002, NAHB Research Center
Maintenance free homes is second most important feature for individuals between 50 to 69
Aging baby boomers do not want to spend a lot of time learning about how to maintain their homes have concerns about readily available skilled help
From Changing Demographics Roundtable, NAHB Research Center & Professional
Builder Baby boomers (46 to 64) make up 28% of the population and head 41% of all households and own 43% of all homes. Seniors ( born up to 1944) make up 22% of the population and 37% of all households and own 44% of all homes Do not want to get into major customization.
To compete in the twenty first century the industry will need to devote more thought to the housing requirements of [single] older women .. ( my comments: Who are intimidated by mechanics thats why they ask their husband, boyfriend, brother or uncle along when the go for a tune up.)
Manufacturers cant afford to make a separate product for a separate niche market. When you do this you pass the cost on to the separate market raising the cost to the group you were trying to help. Carolyn Verweyst
from Consumer Buying Trends
In 2002, we dont want homes that impress our friends as much as we want houses that comfort our families, McCloskey said. The move is to less ostentation. The preference is for simplicity.
Universal design has become particularly important to baby boomers who are now in their 50s, McCloskey added
Simple forms, no frills and extremely solid materials are the order of the day, show sponsors have noted.
Sophistication, simplification, detail and cleverly designed fittings that are no longer visible were also seen as current consumer preferences.
From EVEolution, By Faith Popcorn
Traditional business defaults to the familiar
Most (companies) end up marketing to the past.
A woman looks at such state or the art appliances, over and over in the open kitchen of her favorite Tuscan restaurant; in the editorial pages of Architectural Digest; on B. Smiths TV show or the Food Network."
Women are three times as likely as men to recommend brands when they know a friend is looking for a particular product or service
(my comments : survival form branding is not created by constant change.)
Women have complicated feelings about their cars, and are admittedly insecure about them. What adds to the stress is that when a car needs service, women have to deal with men who all act like theyre on the formula one team. vrmmm vrmmm
Women have been tested out to be more sensitive to lower and higher sound frequencies and nuance noises in general (hint to appliance manufacturers: Thats why refrigerators, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, blenders, etc., need to run even more quietly}.
(think isolating clamps and insulated cabinets)
There are over 90,000 HVAC contractors in North America. Over half of these are 1 to 4 man operations doing the bulk of projects under 20,000 sf.
Many of these firms are owned and operated by individuals who stopped learning over a decade ago and many are approaching retirement.
Of the new projects that these firms install, only 5% are hydronics. (which by the way has not gone up for decades )
*****************************
Im not saying onsite stuff isnt gorgeous, in fact I cant find anywhere in the posts above that says this carte blanche what I am presenting is what consumers and those who study consumers are observing as trends in housing and product design.
Yours to do with as you wish.
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> Some materials from my research
>
> At a recent
> National Association of Home Builders conference,
> Impact Presentations Group co-founder Mark
> Goldstein laid it on the line ."According to a
> recent AARP report, the top 25 percent of the
> boomer group has a median income of $100,000 and
> a median net worth of $360,000, putting them well
> ahead at this stage than the previous generation.
> Some of that cash will definitely be spent on new
> homesand appliances and accessories that come
> with it. Several dozen suppliers were here, eager
> to show builders the latest in comfort and
> efficiency. There were overstuffed chairs that
> lift and recline, pedestal washers and dryers
> that feature angled baskets and enlarged doors,
> refrigerators with large, pull out bottom
> freezers and stovetop ranges that feature front
> controls for the folks in wheelchairs."
>
> My
> comments :When an over stuffed chair has become
> the definition of 'comfort and efficiency' you
> know we're not going in the right
> direction...have a seat - here's more:
>
> From
> the National Older Adult Housing Survey, 2002,
> NAHB Research Center
>
> Maintenance free homes
> is second most important feature for individuals
> between 50 to 69
>
> Aging baby boomers do not
> want to spend a lot of time learning about how to
> maintain their homes have concerns about readily
> available skilled help
>
> From Changing
> Demographics Roundtable, NAHB Research Center &
> Professional
>
> Builder Baby boomers (46 to 64)
> make up 28% of the population and head 41% of all
> households and own 43% of all homes. Seniors (
> born up to 1944) make up 22% of the population
> and 37% of all households and own 44% of all
> homes Do not want to get into major
> customization.
>
> To compete in the twenty
> first century the industry will need to devote
> more thought to the housing requirements of
> [single] older women .. ( my comments: Who are
> intimidated by mechanics thats why they ask
> their husband, boyfriend, brother or uncle along
> when the go for a tune up.)
>
> Manufacturers
> cant afford to make a separate product for a
> separate niche market. When you do this you pass
> the cost on to the separate market raising the
> cost to the group you were trying to help.
> Carolyn Verweyst
>
> from Consumer Buying
> Trends
>
> In 2002, we dont want homes that
> impress our friends as much as we want houses
> that comfort our families, McCloskey said. The
> move is to less ostentation. The preference is
> for simplicity.
>
> Universal design has become
> particularly important to baby boomers who are
> now in their 50s, McCloskey added
>
> Simple
> forms, no frills and extremely solid materials
> are the order of the day, show sponsors have
> noted.
>
> Sophistication, simplification,
> detail and cleverly designed fittings that are no
> longer visible were also seen as current consumer
> preferences.
>
> From EVEolution, By Faith
> Popcorn
>
> Traditional business defaults to the
> familiar
>
> Most (companies) end up marketing
> to the past.
>
> A woman looks at such state or
> the art appliances, over and over in the open
> kitchen of her favorite Tuscan restaurant; in the
> editorial pages of Architectural Digest; on B.
> Smiths TV show or the Food Network."
>
> Women
> are three times as likely as men to recommend
> brands when they know a friend is looking for a
> particular product or service (my comments :
> survival form branding is not created by constant
> change.)
>
> Women have complicated feelings
> about their cars, and are admittedly insecure
> about them. What adds to the stress is that when
> a car needs service, women have to deal with men
> who all act like theyre on the formula one
> team. vrmmm vrmmm
>
> Women have been tested
> out to be more sensitive to lower and higher
> sound frequencies and nuance noises in general
> (hint to appliance manufacturers: Thats why
> refrigerators, washing machines, vacuum cleaners,
> blenders, etc., need to run even more
> quietly}. (think isolating clamps and insulated
> cabinets)
>
> There are over 90,000 HVAC
> contractors in North America. Over half of these
> are 1 to 4 man operations doing the bulk of
> projects under 20,000 sf.
>
> Many of these firms
> are owned and operated by individuals who stopped
> learning over a decade ago and many are
> approaching retirement.
>
> Of the new projects
> that these firms install, only 5% are hydronics.
> (which by the way has not gone up for decades
> )
>
> *****************************
>
> Im not
> saying onsite stuff isnt gorgeous, in fact I
> cant find anywhere in the posts above that says
> this carte blanche what I am presenting is what
> consumers and those who study consumers are
> observing as trends in housing and product
> design.
>
> Yours to do with as you wish.
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Thanx Robert
but in my experience, these "trends" have not yet happened to a large extent in my customer base. As an aside, I remember listening to Faith about 5 years ago, and she was predicting that we were going into a cocooning stage. Wrong again my dear!
As an example, I was just at a customers home today, in which we re-did their boiler room last spring. I was telling her about this thread, when she piped up and told me that one of their clients is a mechanical engineer from SoCal. As she was taking him from the office to the house proper, they passed through the mechanical room. She said that he stopped dead in his tracks and studied our panel for a good half an hour. He was very impressed! This of course made her even more impressed with our work.
I'm soory, but the almighty profit is not the sole reason for me to be in this biz. If money were the only thing, I would have become a money manager or some such. I want to be one of those dead men one day, who have people marveling at our work just as I do today from some long forgotten craftsman. there is pride in our installations that makes for more serenity in my life then huge sums of money could ever hope to accomplish!
Again I will say, there is definitaly a place for pre-mades. But thay are not the end all to be all that some who have posted on this thread would have us believe.
Leo G0 -
Did I get that straight?
Maintenance free homes is second most important feature for individuals between 50 to 69
What about people 5'10 and up? I'm not going to ask anything about Munchkins.
On a more serious note, I won't dispute the income and net worth figures but I'm not sure that there is more (if only we could pick a better word than) disposable income. As a child and even as a young adult I would have never believed what I would be earning even half of what I earn now yet somehow I would have thought that I would have been far better off. If only I could keep a small fraction of my income tax.0 -
In the eye of the beholder
Leo, your post makes a good point that perhaps supports the panel for the consumer argument.
I notice it wasn't your client, but an engineer who appreciated the mechanical system and you craftsmanship.
Typically those who are in the mechanical trades truly appreciate what goes into jobs like this. Unfortunately most of our customers are not in the trades.
What looks beautiful may look like a science experiment to the homeowner
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Actually Bill,
She was already impressed and happy with the "beautiful panel". As I said, this gents comments just confirmed her own feelings. If a profeesional is impressed with the craftsmanship, then that just helps the customer to see that her feeling of the value that she got was indeed NOT misguided!
Leo G0 -
Reply
I'm sorry Robert, I didn't mean to open a can of worms and not stick around to help eat them. We couldn't be any busier. And your own detailed responses deserve a similar treatment. Below are my comments interspersed with both our comments from your posts.
Also to DH, I apologize. I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way. My point really is that distributors aren't really on the cutting edge. The contractors and hopefully the manufactures are the ones who ultimately take any responsibility there is to take. On the back of most distributors invoices is a legal statement that completely disavows any knowledge or responsibility for the products sold. As an engineering firm, we spend some pretty good $$$ for insurance to cover our mistakes, bad calls, errors and omissions. Our customers are covered if we make a bad specification. Contractors also carry liability insurance. Distributors are free to hawk products and even do some unofficial design work yet escape liability. Again, distributors usually disavow responsibility on their invoice.
"But, I don't get it."
Yes you do Dale everytime you buy a "not built to just in time" prefabricated boiler, fan/coil, water heater etc the difference is you are the very same guy who would rather build his own road bikes nes pas? (Ive seen your workmanship - remember very nice stuff) so we both know its just a matter of he who can do and has time does.
I had a lot of experience as a bike mechanic. I built my bike frames as a hobby. I don't build boilers or water heaters. We don't even build solar collectors though we could. There is a big difference between these kind of components and stringing pipe components together in a building. All of us deal with the building side of the components. Matching them to the building in a custom design, because it's a custom building.
"We shop fabricate everything that we do, but on a just in time basis. "
Yep and guys like the contractor who installed these units and other brands unfortunately ran out of time and talented people ( he already has over 50 guys working for him) before running out of projects - he boosted his productivity and reduced the headaches caused by electricians and unskilled members of the food chain.
This is a strange argument Robert. These boxes take the place of talented people. Are you recommending that these boxes take the place of skilled people? Is it an unskilled person that is spending all the time running the redundant piping? This guy who has so many people can't hire an engineer and put together a fab shop? Too bad. I don't see where he is saving any $$ doing things this way unless he is encouraging service work. Making more $$ doesn't always involve increasing sales. That's a common misconception I think.
"What's with all the boxes?"
If I recall, the project is a 3 car garage, three story 7000 sf home without inlcuding the remote shop total of 18 plus zones (each bathroom (6) on its own), three different design temps, three fan/coil w/ HRV modules, indirect fired dhw -and solar: boxes were hung in under an hour no source power or internal control wiring required .just plug in
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Judging from the photos, this all could have been done better and cheaper and cleaner and faster, with some time spent on custom design and fabrication. I could see one of these boxes being appropriate on a small building. As buildings get larger, it is more important to do custom design rather than just throw more boxes at it. All the components that are being used come in sizes you know.
A mechanical room in a building IS A BOX. A walk in one. Once you are under the hood of a car, all the cosmetic coverings disappear in favor of practical considerations. An engine compartment that is well organized and provides access, looks good, even to the consumer who is clueless as to auto mechanics.
"Looks like a right handed box when used when a left handed one would have been more appropriate. "
I remember once asking Viessmann back in the 80s to make a boiler for me because the model we needed didnt exist they told me the only person in the world with skills and talent to modify one of their units was a Dale Pickard from Montana something about the guy new how to weld exotic metals do you know this guy?
I have no clue what you are talking about here but in light of the beer offer below, I'll choose to assume that your intent is benevolent. I have learned a great deal from Viessmann and I have the utmost respect for the company and their technology.
"The boxes seem to restrict access to the hardware without really consolidating space, reducing clutter"
The cabinets slide off like the cowling on a ski doo each panel (rated maximum capacity of 100 mbh) contains five low temp zones, one high temp zone, circulation, balancing, service valves, differential pressure control, venting etc in the size of kitchen cabinet module and can be handled by one man
" reducing clutter"
define and compare 'clutter' since the final judge is whomever ultimately owns the product wouldnt it be logical to poll this person for their opinion?
No, not necessarily, showing and inexperienced person one of your panels and showing them photographs as are found on this thread with the clusterf... of piping are two different things. We wouldn't have any trouble designing and selling against something like this.
From what Ive seen on the Wall the past several years there is an incredible force to clean up the appearance of systems outstanding workmanship - I love it! What would this prepackage system in its entirety look like if it was assembled 10 times by ten different contractors? Im guessing the the guys on the Wall would do justice unfortunately in many of the growing cities in North America there are more people wanting then those who can deliver the uncluttered...when the unskilled get their hands on a project like this one they seem to go out of thier way and do their best to give the industry several black eyes..
Interesting, as the first thing that a less skilled person will do is replace all the copper piping with pex. I'm sure that a mech room like this really looks great with gnarly bundles of pex stuffed into the multiple manifolds we saw.
Also what make you think that this looks better or even equivalent to much of the work displayed on the wall.
"or presenting a more naturally organized appearance. What's the point? "
When the job is finished with the covers on, the point will appear to the owners who were given the option to choose over photo's of on-site built assemblies. In other words what they imagined will turn to reality when they see the finshed product. No visual surprises.
No way anyone can see what you are showing us with the photos.
"Also, I think, that one of the advantages of low voltage zone control is that the LV stuff can be distributed without requiring all the return lines to run back to the mechanical space."
Yes that is one advantage providing the low voltage wiring is installed by someone who understands it and the customer doesnt mind having strangers working in the private corners of their home when it comes time to service the components located out in their closets, bathrooms, etc
You like these straw men arguments. Give me a break. We've been placing manifold sets in closets and other walls as long as we've done radiant. It's actually crazy to run all this pipe just to place everything in the mech room. The labor and the materials are very expensive to do this compared with a set of appropriately sized S&R lines. It's true that one may have to trace a problem to a manifold set in the back of someone's closet. Big Deal. You throw this out as an impossible hurdle when in fact it's no big deal.
"It's very expensive to run all the returns to the mechanical space and there is no good reason for it."
Expensive Dale it was you who taught me not be the financial advisor for wealthy people one look at your project portfolio and its a slam dunk that you do a better job of marketing than the home theatre guys! When I walked into your showroom a few years back expensive didnt come to mind even though there was more moola sitting on the floor and hanging on the wall than the gold reserves at Fort Knox if you've changed to a very expensive according to me philosophy Ill have to fire my current financial advisor and start hounding you.
You've got us wrong Robert. We've done our share of trophy homes, but the bulk of our work is pretty middle class. We sell such people some pretty nice hardware. Once they have been educated, they don't have problems with arranging their priorities to include a solid, efficient heating system. We produce some really nice custom kits and planning services for DIY. They take our custom kits and CAD drawings and produce some systems that pro's can't reproduce.
"Many manufacturers' offer manifold enclosures within which one can provide all the low voltage wiring."
You miss the point. The remote manifold enclosures make wall placement easy and clean. All the low voltage wiring can be done in the enclosure.
Yep competition is good
You missed the point.
"I don't really believe in locating circulators and 110vac wiring remote from the mechanical room but the low voltage stuff begs for it, especially with full reset controls and differential pressure regulators."
Thats why when the product was developed the circulators and 110vac were contained in the panels which are located in the mechanical rooms with the sensors and stats remotely located and connected back with low voltage to the terminal strips in the panels.
You miss my point I think. If you place the manifolds and the low voltage wiring including the zone motors, out it the floor plan where the piping can be distributed to the appropriate zones, you can place the circulators and the 110 vac wiring back in the mech room and connected them with 2 pipes instead of 20.
Anyone who has done this work knows that labor is the most expensive thing. I don't understand how anyone can think that running all this redundant piping back the mechanical room is cost effective. Even the material costs are greater than a set of 1" S&R lines that extend from the circulator in the mech room to the remote low voltage manifold.
Truthfully, you could not pay me or my crew to run all that redundant piping.
"With this approach one can ignore the end switches, and end switch wiring."
Yep...unless switching the pump off is important when the last zone valve closes...or a need to prioritize for other loads.
Well, it's certainly nice to design systems to avoid such issues.
"Something about these prefab's is the lack of choice of controls "
In todays world - there is never a lack of choice only a personal preference for what brand and model of controls one chooses to adopt. Danfoss make and sell their own stuff. So it comes down once again to marketing Mr. Heat Transfer Plate Guy [;@)
I have no clue what you mean by that Robert. If you think that the only difference between the extruded ThermoFins and the folded sheet metal omega plates is marketing, then you really don't know how great the TFins are or how lousy my marketing is.
There is a huge difference between the PID kind of mixing controls offered by tekmar or Viessmann and the on/off so called "injection mixing" shown in the panels. As I said, there is much better technology available than we see in these panels.
"and fitting hardware."
The fitting hardware was determined by product users over an 18 month field trial period ask 10 contractors in a room and what will you get? Majority rules applied. Maybe Mr. Bill and his crew can poll the user base and vote... DH with Wolseley can certainly poll his customers...
Hey, in absolute terms, it doesn't matter what these people tell you. You are likely just measuring the extent to which they are informed or the extent to which they care. This kind of evaluation may be relevant in relative terms but it doesn't make it the best hardware available. So why put cheap hardware on an expensive building and mechanical system. The boxes are designed to a price point, right? Why put a (several redundant) $2.00 air vent(s) and cheap copper tube manifolds on a bizzillion dollar house?
"Considering the components that are currently on the market, I don't see using that particular specification. I have to evaluate the technology that I and my crew are willing to learn and gain experience with and what we as a supplier are willing to stock parts and supplies for."
Now if I was still involved with the product Id jump to conclusions and interpret this as your offer to evaluate the product (and only because its you.)
No thanks. When they redesign their panels, I'd be willing to do some consulting work for them though. ; -)
"Forcing an application into a particular specification doesn't necessarily simply it. It can easily make it worse."
Hmm thats what NASA would say to anyone who wanted them to modify the cargo bay for a special application their response was go see the Russians its about designing the application around the product not designing products for the application if it doesnt work it doesnt work maybe next project.
That's ridiculous Robert! You can't compare designing a mechanical room into a building with redesigning the cargo bay of the space shuttle for a "special application." Give me a break.
"Again, I'm very much into into industrial design. I just think that modern hydronics represents a particularly difficult industrial design problem. "
Yep probably the worst but also the easiest. Unlike the challenge from HP who talked about the impossible challenge of improving the paper clip vs a piece of heavy machinery. Given $500,000 where would the greatest gains be made in product improvement in the clip or the cat?
We can agree on that, it would stand to reason that complex things are more in need of refinement, and that is more likely to be possible to find a way to refine them. Refine meaning, simply, more with less.
"Mechanical systems and buildings wants a particular, happy marriage. It's hard to replace an experienced designer and competent installer. "
Yep and when they starting growing on trees and falling off the branches trained and competent well see less consumer complaints and more folks willing to venture into the world of hydronics until that happens...
I see, these panels take the place of competent people? If you have these panels you don't have to have clue what your are doing. You don't really need to design or size or produce clean, integrated installations.
Next time we get together we'll have to talk about whether it takes more skill to design a system based on what we know versus designing a system to what the home owner knows.
"I refuse to believe that one can install hundreds of these panels without incurring installation and maintenance issues."
Most would agree including the better manufactures of preassembled control systems if it has power and moves its a potential point of failure on your bike, in the boiler room on the space shuttle how to reduce the installation and maintenance issues is one of several reason why you shop fabricate everything that we do
One of the things that we've learned is that if one makes it possible for an event to happen, it will, especially if you repeat it enough times. Looking at these photos I see all kinds of service calls waiting to happen. For example, in addition to the proliferation of worthless air vents and other connections in close proximity to the controls, there are apparently 4 connections between each box made up of pump flanges......that's like 12 some odd connections that didn't have to exist....one or more of them will leak. They would have been better hard soldered.
"Anyone who deals with the real world on a regular basis can understand this feeling. There are always issues. Learning how to choose, predict and deal with issues is our collective forte', is this not true?"
Yep thats why the original team that created the panel were hand picked skilled contractors who lived in the real world then incorporated the comments from contractors in the field into the product as it is shown today. Not one of the guys that participated in the early days was a mechanical eunuch in fact most of them remind me of you and your crew.
Well, I guess that one wouldn't know that by looking at these photos of the final product.
"At Radiant Engineering, we look to perfect "appropriate and just in time" design. A form of custom production."
Yep one form amongst many
Just in Time or Prefab Panels are just tools...in the right hands - on the right projects - they become part of an overall strategy to do hydronic systems.
Nothing more - nothing less.
Robert
(so where did you want me to send the beer? Go Dale Go!)
I love your intellect and enjoy discussing this subject as well...
What would the reasoning be for excluding the regulation of pressure and temperature in hydronics from the application of industrial design when its successfully applied to every electromechanical device in society from automobiles, to boilers, fridges, and washing machines to garage door openers?
Can the reasoning for excluding hydronics be reapplied back onto current forms such that it creates a reversal i.e. site built fridges or washing machines without cabinets.
But there is no exclusion of mechanical hardware in architecture! A mechanical room in a building is just a walk in mechanical enclosure or box. Once you are under the hood, there is no need to hide the mechanical components, only to organize them rationally, eliminate redundancy, optimize function and provide accessibility. That's what the mechanical room is for! Something that we need to do is work on the building architects and designers to provide rationally designed mechanical spaces that accommodate the plethora of mechanical and electrical components and systems found in todays buildings. I shouldn't have to list these things.
I think if you surveyed the application of the bigger brand name producers one would find them not on cookie cutter homes but rather on custom projects. I also think some of the observations could be applied to some brands of preassembled products but not all.
For example the statement inevitably some components are not in the box, boiler pumps, injection piping, mixing valves, expansion tanks etc. air vents etc. With the exception of the expansion tank, this statement does not apply to the major producers products which I am familiar with.
Look at the photos. I see air vents, pump flange unions, slab manifold sets, and an extraordinary amount of interconnecting and distribution piping.
Another example, assumption that many manufacturers have is that all of the components in the box necessarily work the way they are supposed to. I think a manufacture producing panels without detailed knowledge of heat transfer, control theory and fluid hydraulics could fall into this statement but thats not the case in the models again that Im familiar with.
Robert, as I look at these panels, I see that the (little) air vents, the manifold bodies, the fittings and the valves are some of the lowest cost such items available. The water temp control is of the pulsed "injection valve method", which is inferior to PID control over water temperature. At lease these components were clearly specified for either compactness (trading off pressure drop) or for low cost. I suspect that Danfoss did in fact have trouble with the early air vents leaking and the solution was to valve them off. Adding more hardware to fix the problems of existing hardware is a step on the road to hell. (my opinion)
Countless hours were spent on the internal fluid hydraulics and resulting system capabilities even before the first prototypes were made.
I'm sorry Robert, but this line rolled me over. I wonder if you would want to share some evidence of these studies? I can appreciate a company like Danfoss going to some extensive engineering over the internal design of a particular control valve, but it strains credulity that the same company would break a sweat designing the "internal fluid hydraulics" of the product in question. When we marry a pump and control valve to a manifold set, should we be investing countless hours in a lot of fluid dynamics to insure our success. Though I sure that studying such a thing in detail might make a good Masters thesis, in the real world, it's really not that kind of rocket science.
Its the rangeability in the product design which is difficult to capture and not a task for the unskilled either in design or application.
Interesting concept, "range-ability", as in at what point is the "standard component" too large or too small. It's only important to someone wanting to paint a high resolution portrait with a broad brush. A much less important consideratin for those of us who choose to size components for each application.
I think this detail escapes many.(present company excluded, of course : -)) Having more knowledge of the intricate details on the brands and models would help in the evaluation particularly when it comes to application, service and commissioning...may not change the perception but would allow specific issues( air vents) to be set aside.
The air vents chosen for the ZCP boxes are known to be worthless. That's why you had to back them up with more hardware.
A far as form and function...in my twisted reality - given two identical homes on the resale market side by side with equal thermal performance characteristics and all other things being equal...the home with the HVAC system that the buyer can identify with having a positive response will in my opinion sell first. This I believe comes from social conditioning. It's quite possible that the price of the second home will be based on its deviation from the next consumers ability to identify with the system.
But there is no such thing as "two identical homes". That's not what this is about. I think that we can agree that if we are designing for Butler Grain bins or Foam Domes, we could both come up with an appropriate mechanical system that would appropriately fit 100% of the cases. So let's drop it.
Why should the consumer identify with your particular set of components? Why do you think that the boxes and some weird name like Danfoss or Wirsbo inspire any confidence? Delusions of grandeur, I think. Chances are very good that buildings, being what they are, the building designers and owners are trusting their designers and installers to do the right thing. The owners and builiding can't even pronounce these names.
After all, it's not like Danfoss or Wirsbo, manufactures any or all of the components used or will even continue to manufacture the same "panels" in the future. I think that consumers are smart enough to see a bunch of private labeling over the real thing.
The only company I know offhand that actually manufactures most or all of these components of these systems, (except pipe and tubing and fittings) is Viessmann Manufacturing Company. In my mind, because of this broad manufacturing wherewithal, everyone else's take on the situation runs a distant second.
Whoever owns the second home in this example has risked a portion of her equity and net worth in a product which is not of the norm. Not being of the norm comes from being abnormal which means it is open for questioning rather than being acceptable this does not enhance the sale offering but rather detracts from it...I have been out to lunch before but it seems to me normal is not created from repeated changes or customizations that can be readily compared ...could be wrong have been before and will be again!
Truthfully Robert, that's pretty hard to follow. You keep casting this as the norm but it's not and won't be. A building with a mech room and mech equipment sized and designed to fit the building is the norm. Until buildings become Butler grain bins or we start living in our cars.
Its often difficult for me to remember why we all have jobs in one way or another in this industry but I think at the very root its to keep people alive by finding a means and method to conditioning them to a physiological equilibrium with their environments. But just because we do it it electromechanically doesn't guarantee us employment...kind of like we dont have hospitals to employ doctors and nurses we have hospitals to fix sick people that is until man and medicine render doctors and nurses obsolete.
I follow and agree with this except that doctors, nurses and hospitals will never be rendered obsolete, (presumably, you mean made obsolete by technology). We will come to understand things far better than we do and develop treatments that are far more sophisticated than what is practiced now. However, the biologist in me tells me that the more we understand, the more we will place ourselves in our natural biological, evolutionary environment along with all other living things. We will understand how little of the self organizing behavior of the universe is tilted in our favor. Truthfully, my own view is that our species in proving to be extraordinarily mal-adaptive. It is likely that as we are increasingly found wanting, Mother Nature will end the experiment in favor of species more fecund; more successful at extending life.
In my reality the home owner didnt ask for and really doesn't want any of the stuff we assemble on site or pre assemble at a factory. What they want is what the product provides regardless of how we express it or what personal pleasure we get from doing it.
Back to the issue at hand, no of course not. I thought that it was well known that those who buy drills really want holes. People really want to contrive freedom from cold, not heating systems. The only real definition of comfort is lack of discomfort...............nobody wants to be overheated. The real issue is maintenance of a thermal homeostasis, i.e. a biological balance or equilibrium in which one is unaware of one's thermal environment.
This sails into the harsh reality trend towards zero energy buildings - when something comes along to make our stuff obsolete - and it will - our importance and function in new construction becomes irrelevant...like being the manufacture of highest quality typewriter.
I don't know what's so harsh about it? I am reminded of the radiant floor heating installer who lived in a mild climate and complained that house were built so tight and energy efficient that he had to recommend to his customers to open the windows so the floor heating system could run so that they could be "comfortable".
It's as if you are worried that technology will render entropy obsolete, so you will no longer have so much fun staving it off. The biologist in me sees this as some incredible hubris of which only the human race is capable. Life is hard, outer space is absolutely cold, it's hard to stay warm enough or cool enough. Our internal homeostatic temperature has to stay stable in a very narrow range.
More importantly, there is no free lunch. Look at it from the standpoint of population ecology, we have massively subsidized a generation with the fossil fuel sunlight captured and stored over 1000's of years. Our global population has exploded, naturally. Sustainability however is a different thing. Our subsidy will expire within just a few generations at most. No free lunch.
We really need to have a robust round table discussion on this topic...we'll need a professional moderator!
RoundTable/SmoundTable!
The professional moderator is evolution and how it naturally expresses itself in economics. I think that some of the points I am making have a natural basis in economics. For example, I think that it's very expensive and labor intensive to run multiple, redundant piping lines back to the mechanical room. I think that it's expensive to place multiple, redundant components that actually serve no purpose. No one very bright will do it very long. Anyone who does will lose until they are no longer a player. I would have enjoyed quoting this project. It would be fun to go up against this stuff.
Supposedly Abe Lincoln once commented on the idea that one will "never fool all of the people, all of the time". Sooner or later, if your design is sloppy and inefficient, someone or something will come along and eat your lunch, marketing notwithstanding. It's called progress.
Dale
0 -
Good example of great, useful design
Do I know of a way to mix without a secondary circulator? Well, I didn't invent it but Viessmann taught me how. Their mixing valves are designed to allow a single distribution circulator to draw heating water through a 3 or 4 mixing valve. This is best applied to a large volume or high mass boiler like the Vitola Biferral, or an iron boiler with a high water content like the VitoGas 100. (I wouldn't apply it to a low mass boiler like a copper boiler but if i never see another copper boiler in my life it will be ok with me.)
With respect to the prefab panels, if I had to note an existing product type on the market that much better fulfills my ideals in terms of industrial design, I would choose the Viessmann Divicon.
Look at the Divicon. You get in a very compact and cleanly designed and insulated package,
a circulator that can provide sufficient flow for as much of 3000 ft2 of heating distribution,
a 4 way motorized mix valve
mix valve powered by a 110 vac motor
mix valve that can draw water through a low pressure drop device, (no secondary circ required)
2 shut off valves on the distribution side,
1 differential pressure bypass valve on the distribution side,
2 temperature gauges on the distribution side,
4 unions for boiler and distribution connections,
an insulated cover,
the ability to directly connect to the boiler. In Europe, I saw commercial installations with several of these piped in parallel.
I was looking for a photo for those who don't know what I'm talking about but couldn't find one. Maybe some one else...
Dale
0 -
and this my friends,
is the reason why I hang at The Wall!
Leo G0 -
Why Leo?
You like deep BS? If there was a market for this I'd be rich. Robert would be merely wealthy as his is not as oderiferous as mine.
Dale
PS Nice photo below. The system looks organized and thought through.0 -
Sugar worms...and a six pack of Canadian
No need to apologize Dale Ive got my spoon full of sugar to help the worms slide down .
This is one of the most interesting and respectful exchanges of ideas and philosophies which regardless of what each is prepared to support ultimately improves, I believe what the consumer gets.
Matching them to the building in a custom design, because it's a custom building.
..and which boiler manufacturer is making custom boilers for you?
These boxes take the place of talented people.
Your words Dale not mine the photos DH posted were from a very skilled and competent mechanic as are most of the users of the panels. Are you suggesting that contractors that have posted panel pics are unskilled?
This guy who has so many people can't hire an engineer and put together a fab shop?
Youre not suggesting fabricated products are the answer are you Dale?
Too bad. I don't see where he is saving any $$ doing things this way unless he is encouraging service work.
Are we suggesting service work is not necessary otherwise?
Making more $$ doesn't always involve increasing sales. That's a common misconception I think.
We agree on this profits can also be increased by either lowering costs or raising prices or both. Im not sure how this happens when profits are not part of the business process.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Judging from the photos, this all could have been done better and cheaper and cleaner and faster, with some time spent on custom design and fabrication.
How much time?
As buildings get larger, it is more important to do custom design rather than just throw more boxes at it. All the components that are being used come in sizes you know.
Throw more boxes at it would be an amateur solution like throwing in a bigger boiler because one is not confident in the heat loss or picking a bigger pump for safety margin both show lack of skill I think some may equate the skill needed to solder pipe as on the same level as calculating valve authority or selecting circulators for optimum performance though I dont see you as being one of these individuals I do believe that if you developed a bell curve of your historical project and were hired for fee to create a product offering you COULD (as apposed to WOULD) use your engineering skills to develop the necessary products for your client.
A mechanical room in a building IS A BOX. A walk in one. Once you are under the hood of a car, all the cosmetic coverings disappear in favor of practical considerations. An engine compartment that is well organized and provides access, looks good, even to the consumer who is clueless as to auto mechanics.
Yes again we agree it is a walk in box but so is a kitchen and a laundry room and the average consumer is perfectly happy not to see the mechanics.
"I have no clue what you are talking about here but in light of the beer offer below, I'll choose to assume that your intent is benevolent. I have learned a great deal from Viessmann and I have the utmost respect for the company and their technology. "
Dale, would I be any other way but kind? where could I find another individual on the face of this earth that invoke such a great conversation? As far as Viessmann they are top guns but the message applies no boiler manufacture is going to customize a product for a single residential job no matter how you want to customize it - theyll tell you to pick a bigger model or twin two smaller units together. Forgive me if Im wrong on this.
No, not necessarily, showing and inexperienced person one of your panels and showing them photographs as are found on this thread with the clusterf... of piping are two different things. We wouldn't have any trouble designing and selling against something like this.
Thats a testament to your competitive nature and unwavering beliefs unfortunately someone of equal skills and talents would be a formidable competitor especially if the job was a rush and needed product immediately unable to wait for the JIT product. But of course everybody and every project has time to spare.
Interesting, as the first thing that a less skilled person will do is replace all the copper piping with pex. I'm sure that a mech room like this really looks great with gnarly bundles of pex stuffed into the multiple manifolds we saw.
Ill let the contractor know that in order for him to meet these conditions on next job hell have to use gnarly bundles of PEX. You do know that the boxes are not floor heating manifolds right? (I apologies for questioning this- its just not clear from your reference to manifolds.)
Also what make you think that this looks better or even equivalent to much of the work displayed on the wall.
So where in the above post does it say that using your words Dale you said you think that this looks better or even equivalent to much of the work displayed on the wall.
Personally, I disagree with this statement since wherever I have traveled across North America, Ive been invited to visit boiler rooms some with panels some without but all piped with pride. I cant tell you how many jobs Ive been to (without or without the panels) where I just stare and think WOW if only every contractor in America could pipe like this job. My words were exactly this From what Ive seen on the Wall the past several years there is an incredible force to clean up the appearance of systems outstanding workmanship - I love it! Those were my words but you said you think that panels look better or even equivalent to much of the work displayed on the wall. Where is this quote? Im getting old no doubt and maybe I missed it if so please accept my apologies.
No way anyone can see what you are showing us with the photos.
I havent shown any pictures DH did of a job in progress which everyone involved in the projects is excited about. If it were anothers project without panels but equally impressive piping I would be just excited because I love great workmanship.
"You like these straw men arguments. Give me a break. We've been placing manifold sets in closets and other walls as long as we've done radiant. "
Hmmm so because youve been doing it you now equals we, isnt that a little presumption for a population base of 300,000,000 plus people? Sorry Dale no matter how much I personally may trust you the average little old lady that will statistically own these systems - letting in a stranger into her home to rummage through her private spaces to service a zone valve or actuator does not enjoy the experience if her feelings of insecurity become her problem and not ours - then its time for me to give up on this industry.
it's no big deal.
To whom - grandma & grandpa?
We produce some really nice custom kits and planning services for DIY. They take our custom kits and CAD drawings and produce some systems that pro's can't reproduce.
Danger Will danger kits planning . DIY systems that pro's can't reproduce. geesh where to go with this never mind - only my brain can appreciate the playfulness with this one.
You miss the point.
Respectfully Dale that would be a No. I understand both your point (have done it that way) - and the point of the modules (have done it that way as well) this allows me some flexibility - which is a good place to be since it would be very easy for me to only take up the argument for your position which I do for some projects and not for others.
The remote manifold enclosures make wall placement easy and clean.
Yes this we agree on since the modules mounted in the boiler in the photos above - feed remote floor heat manifolds and also make wall placement easy and clean.
You missed the point.
Thats twice now that youve pointed out that Ive missed your point that tells me my receiver must be frozen or some link in the communication chain is AWOL Cool Hand Luke stuff ya know we have a failure to communicate stuff so I take full responsibility for not understanding your point
You miss my point I think.
Thats thrice (such a word? Dont know?)
If you place the manifolds and the low voltage wiring including the zone motors, .
Ah the benefits of knowing the product .perhaps from the above text you will have figured out that those copper lines traveling back and forth are not individual floor heating lines but s & r lines to remote manifolds which have multiple loops connected to them the difference is the manifolds in this specific application dont need individuals actuators as each zones actuator is located in the module - so on this project The remote manifold enclosures make wall placement easy and clean. without having any remote powered devices.
Truthfully, you could not pay me or my crew to run all that redundant piping.
Maybe not but a competitor would gladly bank the money instead so take one for the team my friend.
Well, it's certainly nice to design systems to avoid such issues.
So prioritizing is not an option ? Do explain why?
I have no clue what you mean by that Robert. If you think that the only difference between the extruded ThermoFins and the folded sheet metal omega plates is marketing, then you really don't know how great the TFins are or how lousy my marketing is. "
Dale your words were "Something about these prefab's is the lack of choice of controls " my words there is never a lack of choice only a personal preference for what brand and model of controls one chooses to adopt. Ill take responsibility for my communication which evidently invoked a passionate reply about your ThermoFins and the folded sheet metal omega plates I think the ThermoFins have set the benchmark in plates just as Viessmann has set the standard in Boilers, Wirsbo in Pipe, tekmar in Controls, Spirovent in air separators but that doesnt mean that Buderus, Rehau, Danfoss, or Caleffi are not options there is never a lack of choice only a personal preference for what brand and model of controls one chooses to adopt. Am I fool to repeat myself? Perhaps if so so sorry.
"There is a huge difference between the PID kind of mixing controls offered by tekmar or Viessmann and the on/off so called "injection mixing" shown in the panels. As I said, there is much better technology available than we see in these panels."
So are you suggesting PID is useful on all radiant systems and in all applications? Id like to hear your logic on this. The fluid temperature within the module is regulated with with a number of signal options using PI and with the advanced model PID...depending on the control selected for the application ...and the values are not fixed. They can be changed within the programming. The actual room temperature control is dependant again on the control and application. Would you say the same if there had been a three way or four way valves like Viessmann in the panel? Perhaps with remote communications?
A quick glance through the bigger brands manufacturers catalogue and a chat with the factory would show you it is one of the standard models. So Ill chalk up there is much better technology available than we see in these panels. to not knowing the product. Which is not your responsibility.
Hey, in absolute terms, it doesn't matter what these people tell you.
Ok. On any projects in the future Ill remind myself that what the users tell me doesnt matter.
You are likely just measuring the extent to which they are informed or the extent to which they care.
So what they dont care about they wont tell me ok got it.
This kind of evaluation may be relevant in relative terms but it doesn't make it the best hardware available. So why put cheap hardware on an expensive building and mechanical system.
I was just checking your website for cheap hardware have asked your past suppliers for evaluations on your current suppliers will report back with their opinions if you like.
The boxes are designed to a price point, right? Why put a (several redundant) $2.00 air vent(s) and cheap copper tube manifolds on a bizzillion dollar house?
So copper distribution manifolds serving the brass manifolds should become stainless steel for the bizzillion dollar house? Those air vents drive you nuts dont they?
"No thanks. When they redesign their panels, I'd be willing to do some consulting work for them though. ; -)"
Could they take you up on this part of your offer you could not pay me or my crew.? [;@)
"That's ridiculous Robert! You can't compare designing a mechanical room into a building with redesigning the cargo bay of the space shuttle for a "special application." Give me a break. "
No break for you Dale The Space Shuttle is nothing more than a space truck they dont keep redesigning the entire Shuttle for every launch...they couldnt afford to. You design your project to fit the Shuttle or you build your own. Sorry dude no break and no soup perhaps elsewhere..[;@)
"We can agree on that, it would stand to reason that complex things are more in need of refinement, and that is more likely to be possible to find a way to refine them. Refine meaning, simply, more with less."
Good for a second there I was giving hope!
"I see, these panels take the place of competent people? If you have these panels you don't have to have clue what your are doing. You don't really need to design or size or produce clean, integrated installations."
I dont see that at all and cant see how you come to such a conclusion unless again that its from not understanding the product. In fact it takes a far more skilled applications person to use these tools because the external hydraulics of a system cant exceed the capacity of the module so the external system design has to be thoroughly understood and designed to match the capabilities of the product. This forces better engineering. Not less as you suggest incorrectly.
One of the things that we've learned is that if one makes it possible for an event to happen, it will, especially if you repeat it enough times.
or
One of the things that we've learned is that if one makes it impossible for an event to happen, it will anyways, especially if you repeat it enough times.
Looking at these photos I see all kinds of service calls waiting to happen. For example, in addition to the proliferation of worthless air vents
Dale..are you sure about your feelings towards air vents just checking.
..and other connections in close proximity to the controls, there are apparently 4 connections between each box made up of pump flanges......that's like 12 some odd connections that didn't have to exist....one or more of them will leak. They would have been better hard soldered.
I have a class tomorrow and Ill let them know from now on there will be no pump flanges allowed in any hydronic system ever...except on those items with flanged connections like pumps, valves, air separators, packaged boilers and expansion tanks all other items must be threaded, compression, welded or soldered.
Well, I guess that one wouldn't know that by looking at these photos of the final product.
Oouch thats too bad...I love the look of your stuff and use it as a benchmark for those that don't want to use panles. I think what you do is superb.
But there is no exclusion of mechanical hardware in architecture! A mechanical room in a building is just a walk in mechanical enclosure or box. Once you are under the hood, there is no need to hide the mechanical components, only to organize them rationally, eliminate redundancy, optimize function and provide accessibility. That's what the mechanical room is for! Something that we need to do is work on the building architects and designers to provide rationally designed mechanical spaces that accommodate the plethora of mechanical and electrical components and systems found in todays buildings. I shouldn't have to list these things.
All very admirable comments Dale except the value placed on mechanical system shows up in the real estate provided...and its getting smaller keep doing what youre doing and that will change their minds? Ill buy tickets to watch that dance.
Robert, as I look at these panels, I see that the (little) air vents,
Thats five times
the manifold bodies, the fittings and the valves are some of the lowest cost such items available.
The massive recall on copper tee drilled pipe, fittings and dahl valves distributed over the past 20 plus years occurred when? Was I sleeping? Did I miss something?
Lowest cost compared to what? Welded stainless steel?
Where is he magnitude of order in this cost comment?
The water temp control is of the pulsed "injection valve method", which is inferior to PID control over water temperature. At lease these components were clearly specified for either compactness (trading off pressure drop) or for low cost.
See above.
I suspect that Danfoss did in fact have trouble with the early air vents leaking and the solution was to valve them off.
Thats six times
Adding more hardware to fix the problems of existing hardware is a step on the road to hell. (my opinion).
Not more Dale and if I ever see isolation valves on your pumps or manifolds you know Ill be sending you an email - again you speak from a position of knowing what you know - which is ok.
I'm sorry Robert, but this line rolled me over .
Dale the only way to design a product for its published rangeability is to fully understand the internal hydraulics if you were to get your hands on one of the original application specification posters you would see that the external hydraulic capabilities were restricted. The only way for the design team to publish what was possible on the outside of the box was to know what was happening on the inside of the box through its minimum to maximum range much like the turn down ratio on a gas valve.
A much less important consideratin for those of us who choose to size components for each application. "
Dale "sizing is not selecting" and in my opinion you dont size components - you select them based on the best available choice according to your load calculations. When the right one doesnt exist you become creative and make other selections or arrangements.
"The air vents chosen for the ZCP boxes are known to be worthless. That's why you had to back them up with more hardware."
Thats seven
"But there is no such thing as "two identical homes".
On the resale market there are lots of identical homes in the consumers mind thats why some can't make up their mind...and there are enough custom homes using standard panels to show your statement as being defensive rather than thinking about possibilities.
"Why should the consumer identify with your particular set of components? Why do you think that the boxes and some weird name like Danfoss or Wirsbo inspire any confidence? Delusions of grandeur, I think."
Thats very selective of you considering the brand names once on your web site that no longer exists .the next time someone in a seminar asks me what is a great heat transfer plate Ill do my best to remember the benchmark brand its ThermoFin right?
private labeling over the real thing.
oops - there goes that OEM order that was coming your way from a private labeler oh well.
"The only company I know offhand that actually manufactures most or all of these components of these systems, (except pipe and tubing and fittings) is Viessmann Manufacturing Company. In my mind, because of this broad manufacturing wherewithal, everyone else's take on the situation runs a distant second. "
Its time to dig deeper Dale
"Truthfully Robert, that's pretty hard to follow. You keep casting this as the norm but it's not and won't be."
Dale if your getting caught up in the casted net its because youre making it bigger than it is. As I have said, Mr. Bill has said, DH, GMM et al they are just tools they dont work for all application heck if DH jumps in again hell tell you he sells more component then panels
No one is sticking their head in the sand on this and saying its the end all for all projects, I included.
but it's not and won't be.
Like wall hung boilers with aluminum heat exchangers, or air barriered pex, or high performance air separators
wont is a word much like never
Contractors wont pay 1.00/ft for PEX they cried but they did. Well actually the consumer did.
Contractors wont pay $200 for an air separator but they did. Well actually the consumer did.
Shall I keep going?
A building with a mech room and mech equipment sized and designed to fit the building is the norm.
How do you explain the application the thousands of panels going into custom homes? This was once a cottage industry that started 20 years ago - it has been a slow burn like how most trends develop this is not a flash in the pan fad in fact every time a contractor build his own panel I celebrate because its one more entrepreneur creating his own brand thats too cool! Its all part of some type of as yet undefined evolution look at Leos panels, Jeffs, and others theyve got game great game - how much better can it get? This is all awesome stuff in my humble opinion.
Sometime Jeff uses Wirsbo panels, sometimes not
Leo sometimes uses IPEX panels sometime not.
DH sells panels but mostly components...
GMM sells both...what ever fits.
Shall I continue down the list?
Some go panel and never go back...some go panels and return to components.
I design with and without...in my classes I don't teach panels...I teach custom designs...
I follow and agree with this except that doctors, nurses and hospitals will never be rendered obsolete, (presumably, you mean made obsolete by technology).
Yes..sorry.
We will come to understand things far better . more successful at extending life.
Cool comment foder for another discussion I hope sometime.
Back to the issue at hand, no of course not. I thought that it was well known that those who buy drills really want holes. People really want to contrive freedom from cold, not heating systems. The only real definition of comfort is lack of discomfort...............nobody wants to be overheated. The real issue is maintenance of a thermal homeostasis, i.e. a biological balance or equilibrium in which one is unaware of one's thermal environment.
So very true.
I don't know what's so harsh about it? I am reminded of the radiant floor heating installer who lived in a mild climate and complained that house were built so tight and energy efficient that he had to recommend to his customers to open the windows so the floor heating system could run so that they could be "comfortable".
I wrote an article about that entire topic in last months HPAC magazine
"RoundTable/SmoundTable! "
Ok come on Dale just cause youre from Montana doesnt mean you cant play nice with the opinionated Canadian from Calgary.
For example, I think that it's very expensive and labor intensive to run multiple, redundant piping lines back to the mechanical room.
I think youve mentioned that before. And I agree you are doing a fine job saving the clients money to spend on more important thinks like adding cooling to their already heated car seats
I think that it's expensive to place multiple, redundant components that actually serve no purpose.
I think youve mentioned that before. And I agree you are doing a fine job saving the clients money to spend on more important thinks like adding cooling to their already heated car seats oops didnt I already say that?
No one very bright will do it very long.
Does this apply to your kits planning . DIY systems that pro's can't reproduce.?
Anyone who does will lose until they are no longer a player.I would have enjoyed quoting this project. It would be fun to go up against this stuff.
I think you would be a great competitor and anyone with a level of maturity and respect for anothers capabilities would rather lose a project to you with your skills than to those with lesser talent.
Supposedly Abe Lincoln once commented on the idea that one will "never fool all of the people, all of the time". Sooner or later, if your design is sloppy and inefficient, someone or something will come along and eat your lunch, marketing notwithstanding. It's called progress.
On that note last words are yours.
RB0 -
Too many worms
Robert, I think we are both full of it.
My criticisms and observations are pretty simple and I don't think that we need to turn them into any kind of epic polemic, or classic argument. I don't have any problems with round tables, except that I guess I don't know exactly what you are referring to. I thought that perhaps this discussion was such a thing.
Also, I experience some frustration over offering opinions on subjects that are not a matter of opinion. An industrial designer may seek the opinions of focus groups but the information that comes from them may be less useful to the engineer designer who must work with incontrovertible information. We all strive to make our stuff look great, but I think that mechanics doing this work are engineers first and industrial designers second, especially in as much as we are (should be) given a mechanical room or the space under the hood to work with.
I'm going to try to simplify my thoughts and post them for us to deal with one at a time in separate posts. I'll try to be circumspect to facilitate coming to some understanding and getting lost in my own bs.
Dale0 -
On prefab
I think that we agree on the value of shop fabrication vs site fabrication. What we apparently disagree on is the extent to which such shop fabrication should be customized for particular projects.
I maintain that there is fortunately far to much variation in buildings to allow for single solutions to fit all applications. I further maintain that it's counter productive to to try to fit all applications to a set of solutions that is too small. I understand that Danfoss and other makes a variety of pre fab solutions, but I am responding to the photos posted, which I assume to be the best possible implementation of these solutions.
If you consider that these photos represent a good implementation of these solutions, then I beg to take issue with several aspects of the design that I think clearly counter productive to the desired and stated benefits of using the solutions, those being, possibly among others, economy of labor and materials and presentation of a clean, organized appearance.
I think that with respect to the required skill level of installers, the custom designed pre-fab will fit the actual room, building and mechanical system obviating labor and skill. The "pre-anticipated" pre fab may very well not fit and require more skill to install. I think that you see that in these photos, and you have said that is is a skilled photo. It takes skill to do that piping. If I were designing a pre fab for less skill, as with our DIY'ers, I would try to prevent the need for such skill by designing it out of the system or into the pre fab where we handle it in the shop. We don't like doing it in the field either. (sometimes we do it in the road though) ;-)
I maintain that this mechanical system, as represented in the photos, could be improved on in all of these areas, by the application of a custom designed and and preferably prefabricated solution. Such a custom design would eliminate much of the piping and many of the connections, while providing the same or better function.
Dale0 -
That is some nice work I see there, probably better than I could do but all my eye keeps looking at is a #60 Extrol tank being supported by half inch copper. What happens when the bladder pops?0 -
On the system piping design.
I think that to produce a clean mechanical room, one takes advantage of every opportunity to minimize the piping entering and leaving the room. The use of these boxes prevents that and requires just the opposite.
A change that I would make to this design would be to separate the circulators, DPV, and temperature regulator valve, from the zone valves that create the distinct zones.
The circulators, DPV, and temperature regulator valve would be located in the boiler room, and draw from the common boiler piping, but the zone valves would be located on the manifolds and devices or pipe loops which they serve.
Each of the two circulators would get a supply line of their own, likely no greater than 1" (if the run is long), that provide the two different water temps to their respective devices that are located remotely from the boiler room. Branched sub piping, (smaller) would branch off of each of these supply lines to provide tempered water to each device. The returns from these branches from both temperature pipe loops could be combined into a single return pipe to bring back to the mechanical room. With several devices branched off a main line, it is wise to provide access and stop valves to the connections on the devices, manifolds, or whatever. This will facilitate filling and pressurizing by allowing each branch loop to be filled independently of the others.
A slick way to do it and minimize needing access to many points in the house, (grandma's closet wall), is to bring the common supply piping to an accessible manifold located in the space that is central (grandma's laundry room wall) to the other devices, manifolds, tube loops etc. This manifold can contain all the stop and balancing valves for these devices and they can be fed often with pex piping that goes back below the floor where it's routed to it's respective device.
As it is, all of these branches are occurring in the box in the boiler room, requiring all of this branched sub piping from the components, devices, manifolds etc., to be brought back to the boiler room. The branches are all in the manifold in the box. I count 8 zone valves in the two boxes I can see so there are to be 16 pipes, apparently 3/4", that have to be brought back to the mechanical room. I think that there are many more hours spent running this redundant piping than is spent installing a larger diameter common supply line and remotely locating the branches.
There is also more volume in such a system, increasing the cost of glycol and reducing the systems responsiveness somewhat. Obviously there is more heat loss off the piping and the piping is more difficult and more expensive to insulate. Finally, there is more $$$ in pipe itself, as the scaling laws aren't working in your favor. For the volume and flow that it carries, the larger pipes are far more cost effective than a bunch of smaller pipes. From a labor standpoint, it takes twice as long to run two pipes than one.
As far as cleaning up the mech room, my way would use at most 4 pipes entering the room vs 16. This is what I call incontrovertible. It seems that economics would cause such techniques to fall out of favor.
Dale0 -
On redundant components or unnecessary components
One of the rules that we follow is to design the system to rid it of all unnecessary components and connections. It seems common sensical that the more stuff you have in a design, the more stuff you have to buy, and install and fit up etc. whether it's in the factory or on the site. More importantly, the more stuff you have to screw up or break or leak or fail in any number of unique and amazing ways. Usually, the failure of even the smallest and cheapest component in these systems can create a service call that costs hundreds of $$.
Also, if you have many redundant components, the economic tendency is to specify cheap ones so that the cost for the function, air elimination, for example, is held down.
I'm sorry to have to pick on the air vents again but they are such a great example. I count at least 5 in the photos that I can see. Probably there is one on the boiler as well. The two in the two boxes are only there because the vertical manifold piping in the box traps air that has to be vented. In another design, the traps would be eliminated. It looks like they have learned not to trust them either, as the vents are equipped with stop valves. But this, the addition of valves is more hardware thrown at a design problem.
This is an important concept. It's always cheaper when a problem is address by design rather than hardware. Design or form is just an idea, or a particular arrangement. Once arrived at, it can be repeated forever for free.
The only air vent that's really needed, and the only one of good quality that I see, is the one shown in the boiler box, except that it should be on the main distribution piping and not on the main boiler loop. Boilers are usually equipped with air vents and they are wide spots in the line that don't readily trap air. The are designed with out air traps. Also, one can always burp the relief valve. The reason to put it on the main distribution piping is because that is where the air comes from, all the distribution piping.
We design and valve our systems so that with a transfer pump, one can drive air from the various piping loops independently, into the main air vent. Occasionally, with vertical manifolds, an air trap just like the ones in the photo is created and that needs to be vented. We usually don't like one on distributed manifolds, (as we don't trust them) and we find that with a proper fill procedure, they are unnecessary.
The more connections you have the more potential problems. I have just seen too much of this equipment age to really believe in any of it. Some of it, like the little air vents in the boxes were manufactured as junk. The stuff that is good, is all subject to problems. All of it. If you have a lot of stuff, then the statistics are working against you. Whether it's a leaking pump flange, valve packing nut, or an air vent (even a good one) decides to blow up and spray down a couple thousand $$ of controls, it all happens if you make it possible to happen. If you don't ream your pipe when you make up all these multiple fittings, than it will fail.
When I look at new systems, I look for the weak spots, the potential service calls. Sooner or later, it all fails. Our real job as designers is anticipate and obviate failure. The simplest way to do that up front is to simplify the system by being ruthless at eliminating components and the need for components. This is part of what constitutes elegance in design; when design itself obviates the need for hardware solutions.
The book that Robert and I have enjoyed so much is "To engineer is human" by Henry Petrowski. The subtitle of this book is "The role of failure in design". It's a fascinating read. There's some line I forget off hand about "good judgment resulting from bad experiences". I don't know if my judgment is very good but I've definitely had the experiences.
Dale0 -
I want my beer!
I need something to wash these worms down. I'll be in Calgary in the near future for a few different reasons. You can ply me with a Molson then.
Dale0 -
Well said...
Yes we are are full of it...and I shall plug the cow as well.
[:0)
RB
0 -
It'll be my treat.
Look for toward to it.
RB0
This discussion has been closed.
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