Danfoss Panel Install

Dave Heath_2

Have a peek. Installation is not complete yet, but you can get an idea what is being done. The installing contractor only installs Danfoss Panels and refuses to do component installations. Every project he does looks this great! System has a Weil McLain ‘Ultra’ Boiler, Weil McLain Indirect Tank, Danfoss BFP Panel, 3 - 4WE Panels, 1 – BHP Panel, 2 fan coils and an Axiom Glycol fill tank. Radiant in basement and garage with radiant floor warming on the upper floors. This Mechanical Contractor refuses to do any other installs without panels. He has over 100 panels installed over the last two years and has never had to go back for service or failure. He truly is a perfectionist.

This system will be connected soon to the Danfoss ECL302 remote communication package and will be monitored and tracked for performance.

Uni R

Very impressive!

It looks like a jeweller did all the soldering.

Weezbo

That looks very professional...

would you ask him where one can get the 1/2" differential by passes? i have like zero luck ...3/4 " all day long 1/2" no can got.

Constantin

Beautiful install...

But I have the feeling you knew this from the time you laid your eyes on it, no?

Just goes to show that you don't need diamondplate, etc. to make a pump panel look good. An obvious eye for detail, trueness, etc. does that admirably. Congrats again, this system should serve you for a very long time.

Paul Pollets

Who Done It??

Nice looking project. Who did the work?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

lchmb

without a doubt

Nice soldering job!! That is a beautiful job all around!!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Perfectly tinned connections. Exceptional piping support. Dreamy service access with the guts in boxes where homeowners expect.

YIPPY KY YI YA!!!

The art is rarely surpassed.

DWood

1/2\" pressure differential

Weezbo,
where are you located again? Any Danfoss wholesaler should be able to get them for you. Stocking may be a different challenge. Let me know and I'll try to point you in the right direction.
DWood

Weezbo

Am in the North Pole Alaska ....

i have asked belive me....

Robert O'Connor_3

contact me and I can hook you up

Dave Heath_2

A humble man

The contractor is from Calgary, Canada and is a very humble man and does not normally toot his own horn, so I will speak for him. As a plumbing wholesaler with a full complement of Hydronic Design and trained staff to support this growing industry, I have grown to appreciate the Danfoss Panel products and know stock and sell multiple units a month. I have to say they these types of installations are the way of the future and will guarantee the consumer is satisfied and proud of the system that was installed.

GMM

Panels

The industry needs more jobs like this. Panels are the only way to do a proper comfort ( heating ) system.
More money in the contractors pocket, clean appliance look for the home owner and a system that works.
Lets bring the industry up a level.

Mr. Bill

Worth a second look

This customer is demonstrating that individual workmanship and professionalism can go hand in hand with the use of prefabricated panels.

With the number of installations this contractor has done with ZCP panels, they are obviously very cost effective for him. When he puts them in his own home it certainly speaks of the quality and reliability.

For those who don't use panels, perhaps they warrant a second look. Although I am definitely prejudiced towards the Danfoss ZCP, we are not the only one in the panel business.

Kal Row

weesbo is right.. real hard to get...and i am in nyc...

if reps and supply houses dont get it together..
we will buy everything on the net

DWood

weezebo

Please email me a phone #, I'll have someone get in touch with you dennis_wood@danfoss.com

Dof3

Hook me up

dwood, are there any Danfoss distributors in or around the Chicago area[south subs]. If so post them for me. We have a small trade show coming up and I was hoping to see someone there that handles them. I have looked at theses at the web site but have not found any.

Dale Pickard

I'm sorry

But, I don't get it. We shop fabricate everything that we do, but on a just in time basis. As much as I am into industrial design, (and I am), I just fundamentally believe that one size does not fit all. I am not left handed but I have some commiseration with those who are. The piping is beautiful, but, in as much as I am not a natural born cheerleader, I have some other observations.

What's with all the boxes? Looks like a right handed box when used when a left handed one would have been more appropriate. The boxes seem to restrict access to the hardware without really consolidating space, reducing clutter or presenting a more naturally organized appearance. What's the point?

Also, I think, that one of the advantages of low voltage zone control is that the LV stuff can be distributed without requiring all the return lines to run back to the mechanical space. It's very expensive to run all the returns to the mechanical space and there is no good reason for it. Many manufacturers' offer manifold enclosures within which one can provide all the low voltage wiring. I don't really believe in locating circulators and 110vac wiring remote from the mechanical room but the low voltage stuff begs for it, especially with full reset controls and differential pressure regulators. With this approach one can ignore the end switches, and end switch wiring.

Something about these prefab's is the lack of choice of controls and fitting hardware. Considering the components that are currently on the market, I don't see using that particular specification. I have to evaluate the technology that I and my crew are willing to learn and gain experience with and what we as a supplier are willing to stock parts and supplies for.

Forcing an application into a particular specification doesn't necessarily simply it. It can easily make it worse.
Again, I'm very much into into industrial design. I just think that modern hydronics represents a particularly difficult industrial design problem. Mechanical systems and buildings wants a particular, happy marriage. It's hard to replace an experienced designer and competent installer.

I refuse to believe that one can install hundreds of these panels without incurring installation and maintenance issues. Anyone who deals with the real world on a regular basis can understand this feeling. There are always issues. Learning how to choose, predict and deal with issues is our collective forte', is this not true?

At Radiant Engineering, we look to perfect "appropriate and just in time" design. A form of custom production.

Dale

DWood

pressure differential

As I stated earlier, any Danfoss wholesaler can get them for you, finding one that stocks them is a little more difficult. In the southside of Chicago, ILLCO, Munch, Columbia, Able, Porter would be a start. If you're talking about the Illinois PHCC show next month, stop and see Bornquist, or email me your address and I'll get some info to you.
DWood

Kal Row

hear ya, sent this pdf to danfoss..

lets see what they come up with with - and if you have something better - i'm all ears

Kal Row

i sent this simple system pdf to them...

lets see what they come up with.. it's got to fit on a 4x8 horizontal with all the electronics, except for the boilers and indirects, and there will be at least 3 pipe layers when done, if you have better ideas - i am all ears

S Davis

Panels

I agree with Dale I have looked at different piping panels in the past and have used a few of Wirsbo's Pro Panels but they don't fit most custom jobs, It seems you have to design your system to the panel instead of the right design for the structure and if you can make the panels work on a custom job you end up using more space than a in-house custom built boiler panel, the other issue is some of the panels are hard to service if you have a leak or bad component with the brazed joints and lack of room it can get real fun.
The boiler room is the hart of the system and it takes knoledge and skill to design and install one correctly and for me using a panel is taking the easy way out.
I should say if you can get it to fit the system.


S Davis

Apex Radiant Heating

rb_6

Industrial Design

"But, I don't get it."

Yes you do Dale…everytime you buy a "not built to just in time" prefabricated boiler, fan/coil, water heater etc… the difference is you are the very same guy who would rather build his own road bikes nes pas? (I’ve seen your workmanship - remember – very nice stuff)…so we both know its just a matter of ‘he who can do and has time – does.’

"We shop fabricate everything that we do, but on a just in time basis. "

Yep…and guys like the contractor who installed these units and other brands unfortunately ran out of time and talented people ( he already has over 50 guys working for him) before running out of projects - he boosted his productivity and reduced the headaches caused by electricians…and unskilled members of the food chain.

"As much as I am into industrial design, (and I am), "

You taught me everything I know about industrial design – (forever grateful - thanks).

"I just fundamentally believe that one size does not fit all."


That’s why there are many different ZCP models…the idea of having multiple models was stolen from all the other prefabricated equipment manufacturers of boilers, fan/coils, a/c equipment,

"I am not left handed but I have some commiseration with those who are."

I know how you feel – happens with just a few of the boiler and fan/coil manufactures…

"The piping is beautiful, but, in as much as I am not a natural born cheerleader,"

Dale in a MSU cheer leader uniform – nothing natural about that (grin;) – would take several cases of Canadian beer…

" I have some other observations. "

…and would it be any other way?

"What's with all the boxes?"

If I recall, the project is a 3 car garage, three story 7000 sf home without inlcuding the remote shop …total of 18 plus zones (each bathroom (6) on its own), three different design temps, three fan/coil w/ HRV modules, indirect fired dhw -and solar: boxes were hung in under an hour…no source power or internal control wiring required….just plug in…

"Looks like a right handed box when used when a left handed one would have been more appropriate. "

I remember once asking Viessmann back in the 80’s to make a boiler for me because the model we needed didn’t exist…they told me the only person in the world with skills and talent to modify one of their units was a Dale Pickard from Montana…something about the guy new how to weld exotic metals…do you know this guy?

"The boxes seem to restrict access to the hardware without really consolidating space, reducing clutter"

The cabinets slide off like the cowling on a ski doo…each panel (rated maximum capacity of 100 mbh) contains five low temp zones, one high temp zone, circulation, balancing, service valves, differential pressure control, venting etc…in the size of kitchen cabinet module…and can be handled by one man…

"…reducing clutter"

define and compare 'clutter' … since the final judge is whomever ultimately owns the product – wouldn’t it be logical to poll this person for their opinion? From what I’ve seen on the Wall the past several years – there is an incredible force to clean up the appearance of systems…outstanding workmanship - I love it! What would this ‘prepackage system’ in its entirety look like if it was assembled 10 times by ten different contractors? I’m guessing the the guys on the Wall would do justice…unfortunately in many of the growing cities in North America there are more people ‘wanting’ then those who can deliver the ‘uncluttered’...when the unskilled get their hands on a project like this one they seem to go out of thier way and do their best to give the industry several black eyes...

"or presenting a more naturally organized appearance. What's the point? "

When the job is finished with the covers on, the point will appear to the owners who were given the option to choose over photo's of on-site built assemblies. In other words what they imagined will turn to reality when they see the finshed product. No visual surprises.

"Also, I think, that one of the advantages of low voltage zone control is that the LV stuff can be distributed without requiring all the return lines to run back to the mechanical space."

Yes that is one advantage…providing the low voltage wiring is installed by someone who understands it and the customer doesn’t mind having strangers working in the private corners of their home when it comes time to service the components located out in their closets, bathrooms, etc…

"It's very expensive to run all the returns to the mechanical space and there is no good reason for it."

‘Expensive’…Dale…it was you who taught me not be the financial advisor for wealthy people…one look at your project portfolio and it’s a slam dunk that you do a better job of marketing than the home theatre guys! When I walked into your showroom a few years back…expensive didn’t come to mind even though there was more moola sitting on the floor and hanging on the wall than the gold reserves at Fort Knox…if you've changed to a ‘very expensive according to me’ philosophy I’ll have to fire my current financial advisor and start hounding you.

"Many manufacturers' offer manifold enclosures within which one can provide all the low voltage wiring."

Yep…competition is good…

"I don't really believe in locating circulators and 110vac wiring remote from the mechanical room but the low voltage stuff begs for it, especially with full reset controls and differential pressure regulators."

That’s why when the product was developed the circulators and 110vac were contained in the panels which are located in the mechanical rooms with the sensors and stats remotely located and connected back with low voltage to the terminal strips in the panels.

"With this approach one can ignore the end switches, and end switch wiring."

Yep...unless switching the pump off is important when the last zone valve closes...or a need to prioritize for other loads.

"Something about these prefab's is the lack of choice of controls …"

In todays world - there is never a lack of choice only a personal preference for what brand and model of controls one chooses to adopt. Danfoss make and sell their own stuff. So it comes down once again to marketing Mr. Heat Transfer Plate Guy…[;@)

"and fitting hardware."

The fitting hardware was determined by product users over an 18 month field trial period…ask 10 contractors in a room and what will you get? Majority rules applied. Maybe Mr. Bill and his crew can poll the user base and vote... DH with Wolseley can certainly poll his customers...

"Considering the components that are currently on the market, I don't see using that particular specification. I have to evaluate the technology that I and my crew are willing to learn and gain experience with and what we as a supplier are willing to stock parts and supplies for."


Now if I was still involved with the product I’d jump to conclusions and interpret this as your offer to evaluate the product…(and only because its you.)

"Forcing an application into a particular specification doesn't necessarily simply it. It can easily make it worse."

Hmm that’s what NASA would say to anyone who wanted them to modify the cargo bay for a special application…their response was ‘go see the Russians’…its about designing the application around the product not designing products for the application…if it doesn’t work – it doesn’t work…maybe next project.

"Again, I'm very much into into industrial design. I just think that modern hydronics represents a particularly difficult industrial design problem. "

Yep…probably the worst…but also the easiest. Unlike the challenge from HP who talked about the impossible challenge of improving the paper clip vs a piece of heavy machinery. Given $500,000 where would the greatest gains be made in product improvement – in the clip or the cat?

"Mechanical systems and buildings wants a particular, happy marriage. It's hard to replace an experienced designer and competent installer. "

Yep…and when they starting growing on trees and falling off the branches trained and competent we’ll see less consumer complaints and more folks willing to venture into the world of hydronics…until that happens...

Next time we get together we'll have to talk about whether it takes more skill to design a system based on what we know versus designing a system to what the home owner knows.



"I refuse to believe that one can install hundreds of these panels without incurring installation and maintenance issues."

Most would agree including the better manufactures of preassembled control systems…if it has power and moves it’s a potential point of failure…on your bike, in the boiler room…on the space shuttle…how to reduce the installation and maintenance issues is one of several reason why you “shop fabricate everything that we do…”

"Anyone who deals with the real world on a regular basis can understand this feeling. There are always issues. Learning how to choose, predict and deal with issues is our collective forte', is this not true?"

Yep…that’s why the original team that created the panel were hand picked skilled contractors who lived in the real world…then incorporated the comments from contractors in the field into the product as it is shown today. Not one of the guys that participated in the early days was a mechanical eunuch…in fact most of them remind me of you and your crew.

"At Radiant Engineering, we look to perfect "appropriate and just in time" design. A form of custom production."

Yep…one form amongst many…

Just in Time or Prefab Panels are just tools...in the right hands - on the right projects - they become part of an overall strategy to do hydronic systems.

Nothing more - nothing less.

Robert

(so where did you want me to send the beer? Go Dale Go!)

Leo G_99

and Dale,

don't forget the other biggee, some of us just want to be able to express our creative side!

:O~

Leo G

Dale Pickard

I understand the intent,

but I don't see where that end is served with these products. In this mechanical business, form follows function, I think. I don't think these boxes represent the easy way out. It's an unfulfilled promise, I think.
Much of function is strongly tied up in economics. Inevitably, things that look good and organized will also perform well, be easy to service and exhibit a deliberate lack of redundancy, as in eliminating multiple return piping back to the boiler room.

The only way to use cookie cutter heating systems is to live in cookie cutter buildings......that's not human, and even if we wanted it, it's not real. Bucky Fuller, once designed the futuristic "dymaxion house" out of a Butler grain bin....it didn't catch on. Buildings, like people come in all shapes and sizes, and central heating systems, by definition, must conform to those buildings. Part of the real beauty, and economic utility, of "modern hydronics" , is the ability to mix and match components and technology in a flexible sense, to provide the most appropriate mechanical complement or match to the architecture, such as we find it.

This is hard, and typical mechanics, (present company excluded, of course : -)), can have a very difficult time sorting out their skill sets, and tool sets to correctly or even passably apply this changing technology to this variety of building types in appropriate ways. Even the best of us have our limits, and the worst of us, sadly need help of some kind.

This all drives the desire for standardization and replacement of jobsite labor with factory labor, the expectation being that the same processes can be more efficiently provided in that controlled environment. And of course, that is true to a large extent.
The problem occurs when the product itself has been reduced to fit that consistent factory environment, and all of the complexity of the real world is left up to he installers. They have to make the project fit in their box. When it doesn't, much of the perceived economics of the factory production evaporate as time energy and materials go into forcing the remaining variable in the project to fit the preconception.

A simple example would be a box containing a manifold of some kind that was designed in a right handed way, forcing the installer to add extra elbows and reverse several lines in order to enter the right side of the box. Then we get to ohh and ahhh over the excellent workmanship of the installer as he performs these difficult parallel pipe runs on site. Truly, the photos displayed above show nice workmanship.....how much of it was really necessary? How much could have been obviated with attention to custom design?

The boxes intrigue me, especially since I don't think they really provide the only industrial design function that is intended; that being to hide the "complexity" of the internal components. I say that for a few reasons, inevitably some components are not in the box, boiler pumps, injection piping, mixing valves, expansion tanks etc. air vents etc. Things related to the particular installation and mix of other components like the boiler, low loss header....etc. Also, inevitably, it's not just one box, it's several boxes, strung together with a mess of redundant piping, several lines are run rather than one larger one etc.

I think that the box adds to the visual clutter and detracts from the value of the installation by limiting access to the components. Access and isolation are major service features to have in a mechanical system. The boxes sacrifice what I see as a major advantage of a well designed and installed system on the altar of industrial design. The designers at the factory are not thinking about service.

A related issue is the assumption that many manufacturers have is that all of the components in the box necessarily work the way they are supposed to. We have all seen cheesy components that look like the real thing but aren't, and often the components in the boxes are festooned with them, partially because the box itself prevented the correct placement of the correct device. Good example, things that look like air vents, but don't really vent air, they just grow green slime and cause the system to lose pressure. Sometimes they leak in more dramatic fashion, spraying down adjacent components trapped in the box. Ultimately, you plug them all and find a place in the system for a real air vent. Finally you learn to plug them in the shop so they don't make it to the field.

Whenever service is factored into the initial design of these systems, the component specification becomes really important. The aforementioned 10 cent air vent can cause a several hundred dollar service call to a 50,000 dollar heating system. It'll cost more if it's a pain in the **** to remove or replace. Maybe it'll spray down a couple thousand dollars worth of controls and wiring.

I like this subject obviously, I think there are answers, and ways of doing things that provide the efficiency promised by the boxes.
Depends on the response to this I guess.

Dale

Kal Row

i was concidering a business to do these things, but..

parts avaliability - would put me out of it instantly, and a 6 month lead time is not acceptible - so i just dont know

i think manufactures have to make more snap together modular stuff, like the bayonet mount with o-ring "add-a-zone" components used in zurn radiant

attached is a idea for a zone module that would come complete with tekmar electronics to work with their new TN4 network

Dale Pickard

I should have known,

that I'd draw you out Mr. Bean. And that's ok. I think a discussion like this can be useful for the audience. I know you as an intellectual that can well tolerate criticism and abstract discussion. To paraphrase a well known boiler manufacturer, "one must criticize good things to create perfection."

To clear a couple of things up. No way I taught you anything about industrial design. It's an interest that we share, I turned you onto an author I enjoy, (Petrowski) that's all. You know that as much as it feels good to be stroked, (and it does), I don't go for all this melodramatic back patting.

Look at this system. I didn't realize until I looked at the photos again but incorporates many of my criticisms. Like multiple, redundant components. The cheesy and worthless air vents are there in number and strategically placed to hose down the controls. The real air vent that will do any of the air removal work is located outside the box. We really only need one such air vent per system.

If you think that this doesn't happen, then you have never done service work. There are several circulators and delta p valves when probably one of each, properly sized would have been sufficient. All of the return piping has been brought back to the mechanical room, creating an expensive mess and taking up space that the boiler and water heater could have better used. The Dahl valves are neat and compact but have a terrible pressure drop associated with them.
As far as the boxes go, I still maintain that they serve no purpose. Even with the covers on, it looks like a complicated mess. I think that a custom designed and installed system could eliminate much of the redundant components, obviating the use of the boxes altogether.

Finally, it doesn't surprise me that there is a market for this stuff, especially with distributors. Of all the stops in the distribution chain, typically the distributors are the ones who have no accountability. They just push stuff that they think they can sell and don't deal with the aftermath of those decisions. I say to contractors and homeowners, buyer beware....just because they call it an air vent, doesn't make it so.

Dale

rb_6

Great stuff

Dale,

I love your intellect and enjoy discussing this subject as well...

What would the reasoning be for excluding the regulation of pressure and temperature in hydronics from the application of industrial design when it’s successfully applied to every electromechanical device in society from automobiles, to boilers, fridges, and washing machines to garage door openers?

Can the reasoning for excluding hydronics be reapplied back onto current forms such that it creates a reversal…i.e. site built fridges or washing machines without cabinets.

I think if you surveyed the application of the bigger brand name producers one would find them not on cookie cutter homes but rather on custom projects. I also think some of the observations could be applied to some brands of preassembled products…but not all.

For example the statement “inevitably some components are not in the box, boiler pumps, injection piping, mixing valves, expansion tanks etc. air vents etc.” With the exception of the expansion tank, this statement does not apply to the major producers products which I am familiar with.

Another example, “…assumption that many manufacturers have is that all of the components in the box necessarily work the way they are supposed to.” … I think a manufacture producing panels without detailed knowledge of heat transfer, control theory and fluid hydraulics could fall into this statement but that’s not the case in the models again that I’m familiar with. Countless hours were spent on the internal fluid hydraulics and resulting system capabilities even before the first prototypes were made. It’s the ‘rangeability’ in the product design which is difficult to capture and not a task for the unskilled either in design or application. I think this detail escapes many.(present company excluded, of course : -))

Having more knowledge of the intricate details on the brands and models would help in the evaluation…particularly when it comes to application, service and commissioning...may not change the perception but would allow specific issues( air vents) to be set aside.

A far as form and function...in my twisted reality - given two identical homes on the resale market side by side with equal thermal performance characteristics and all other things being equal...the home with the HVAC system that the buyer can identify with having a positive response will in my opinion sell first. This I believe comes from social conditioning. It's quite possible that the price of the second home will be based on its deviation from the next consumer’s ability to identify with the system.

Whoever owns the second home in this example has risked a portion of her equity and net worth in a product which is not of the norm. Not being of the norm comes from being abnormal which means it is open for questioning rather than being acceptable – this does not enhance the sale offering but rather detracts from it...I have been out to lunch before but it seems to me “normal” is not created from repeated changes or customizations that can be readily compared ...could be wrong – have been before and will be again!

It’s often difficult for me to remember why we all have jobs in one way or another in this industry but I think at the very root it’s to keep people alive by finding a means and method to conditioning them to a physiological equilibrium with their environments. But just because we do it it electromechanically doesn't guarantee us employment...kind of like we don’t have hospitals to employ doctors and nurses we have hospitals to fix sick people that is until man and medicine render doctors and nurses obsolete. In my reality the home owner didn’t ask for and really doesn't want any of the stuff we assemble on site or pre assemble at a factory. What they want is what the product provides regardless of how we express it or what personal pleasure we get from doing it. This sails into the harsh reality trend towards zero energy buildings - when something comes along to make our stuff obsolete - and it will - our importance and function in new construction becomes irrelevant...like being the manufacture of highest quality typewriter.

We really need to have a robust round table discussion on this topic...we'll need a professional moderator!

Cheers,

RB

DH

Panels and there place

Dale, I take offence to your comment that distributors have no accountability. Maybe that is so in your area, however if I look at the qualified staff that is dedicated to the hydronic industry for Western Canada, I have to disagree. In the Province of Alberta (Population 3 million) there are over 30+ technically sound Hydronics designers working for different wholesalers that are the support network for the Mechanical Contractor. They all are accomplished and trained at heatloss calculations, piping design, control wiring schematics, troubleshooting, project inspection and site analysis. Many of those that work in the distribution market are journeyman plumbers and sheet metal trades people that have chosen to make a career in this growing business. I have been a Wally for many years and I have seen some of the best installations posted on this site, however majority of installations out there are never quite as impressive. There is absolutely a place for pre-fab panels, whether it’s Danfoss or something else. There are plenty of contractors that are turning work down or are apprehensive to start a hydronics project. I work for a wholesaler that twice a year for the last 20 years has committed to home shows that educate the public and help to make hydronics a house hold name. I seldom if ever see a mechanical contractor in any way doing the same. I believe what you talk about is the 97/3 rule. You are one of the 3% that truly understands the hydronics design and installation business, however you can’t do every job, so the rest of the homeowners out there need the confidence that their system is going to work properly. In know way am I disagreeing with your abilities or accomplishments, it’s just that not ever one has that skill level.

rb_6

Come on Dale...

You know I'm like bass to bait with this topic...

So some specifics...

“The cheesy and worthless air vents…”…

Look closer dude - they're threaded into tapped caps connected to Dahl hose bibs. Why? Because of service and commisioning headaches we had purging systems and failed vents. Pop off the cap and vent and connect the hose - works fast for quick purge and flushes. Switch them out for coin vents or swap out the tapped cap for a solid brass version if you like…either way you won’t need a wrench or torch or have to drain the system down.

"There are several circulators and delta p valves when probably one of each, properly sized would have been sufficient"

Negative...unless you've figured out how to do mixing without a secondary circulator. Each of those panels has separate mixing devices and multiple zones...thus the need for independent DP valves.

"All of the return piping has been brought back to the mechanical room, creating an expensive mess and taking up space that the boiler and water heater could have better used."

That's all relevant. Expensive compared to what? 18 circulators mounted on the wall...or a single temp - single circulator run around system with remote zoning...without discussing project details and customer preference its all subjective comments.

"The Dahl valves are neat and compact but have a terrible pressure drop associated with them."

Define "Terrible" in my world it’s a function of flow and Cv...Regulate the DP and you regulate the terrible down to acceptable levels...by the way how do you know these aren't the large bore version?

"As far as the boxes go, I still maintain that they serve no purpose. Even with the covers on, it looks like a complicated mess."

The last time I crossed the border it was still ok to have an opinion...others in this post have shared theirs...everybody can do that here even consumers. Cool eh?

"I think that a custom designed and installed system could eliminate much of the redundant components, obviating the use of the boxes altogether."

Besides the pipe - for example...?


"Finally, it doesn't surprise me that there is a market for this stuff, especially with distributors. Of all the stops in the distribution chain, typically the distributors are the ones who have no accountability. They just push stuff that they think they can sell and don't deal with the aftermath of those decisions. I say to contractors and homeowners, buyer bewares....just because they call it an air vent, doesn't make it so."

There is never a market for anything it has to be created...that's why they call it marketing. (go figure)

25 years ago how many guys were lined up on the eastern shore board begging to pay a $1 a foot for pex pipe, or $250 for an air separator or $3500 for boiler? No one. But that’s where it all started...what did you say you were charging for those plates?

RB

Mr. Bill

Worth the price of admission

Hi Dale, I haven't met you but it's great to see that some one out there seems to have the same passion for the business as Mr. Bean.

I'm not getting into this debate, but I think people would pay to see you and Robert kick a few hot topics around.

For those of you who think that prefabricated panels are too restrictive, just remember that "one size fits all panty hose" easily adapts to a variety of applications.

In closing, we have a good market for a well-deigned, versatile product line. We have no illusions about converting the world and respect every one's right to design and install systems that make for happy customers and help promote radiant.

PS: Mr. Heath is correct about the distribution channel. He has knowledgeable people that are an important resource for the trade.

When you and Robert get together for a Canadian beer, you can toast to radiant heating and the ability to express different opinions.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Dale & Robert

What an interesting difference of views from two who are both knowledgable and opinionated.

Reminds me of kitchens.

Some insist on completely custom, site-specific cabinetry. There's a certain economy regarding materials, but it takes a great deal of skill and time.

Other people like that look, but choose semi-custom cabinetry for mainly economic reasons. Much of the precision work is accomplished in a factory production-line setting so the final job can be very well installed quickly by those less skilled in cabinet making and finishing.

Design the physical space well and many won't be able to notice the difference between semi-custom and fully custom.

With careful attention both can be just as perfectly-suited to the task.

Please take no offense gentlemen as none is intended in any way.

GMM

Dale

Dale
As a designer of radiant heating system for the last 25 years i have seen many installation good and bad. Your comments are very valid and you must be an expert on installing systems but at the end of the day it is the home owner who has to deal with the looks and the problems.
I would rather look at 3 boxes on the wall then 8 ft of
piping and wiring. Try to sell a house with 8 ft on copper pipe, wiring and pumps on the walls.
I have not yet seen a job that I could not use panels on it.
Next time you need a new TV try and buy it in parts!!!!
Panels are for the contractor who is also a buisness man.
Takes pride in his work and a profit in his pocket.

Tim Doran

350

How many different models has GM put a 350 into? Were they all the same weight? Did they all carry the same load? Did they all go the same speed? The answer is no. Ofcourse they all did different things, but with a common engine.

Can you imagine the caos if every car, truck, bus, train and airplane were one of a kind. Our transportation system would be at a standstill. Every probelm would be brand new, Chiltons manuals could not exist, parts would not be available or would have to be shipped in, you may have to hunt for weeks to find the right guy to fix your problem. Sound familiar? This is where hydronics is today. Maybe not quite as bad as what I portray here but you get the idea.

There is little or no recognized way to install a hydronic system. It is all at the will of the installer and true to human nature we all have our own idea's, some are good and some are not so good. There is plenty of data on installing radiant floors, boilers, pumps, controls, and so on but it is rarely brought together. Too many brands and ego's at risk for that sort of stuff. Usually the heat emmitters go in fairly well and the heat source usually makes the required amount of btu's. Most often it is the interface between source and load that gets screwed up and this is where todays panels come in.

If we were to make a spread sheet with all of the different types of panels that are commercially available and that included the flow, head, and temperature ranges for each of them I think that we would quickly see that it is possible to meet the needs of over 75% of the residential hydronic heatings projects done in North America today. The other 25% most likely will remaine custome or semi-custome for some time.

My take is this. I find it more efficient to manage the loop layouts, tube size, delta T, and other parameters than to re-invent the boiler room on each project. We started doing some of this back in the mid 1980's the exception being that we had to build our own panels in the shop vs. buying one from our wholesaler. In todays business climate it is mandatory that we standardize if we are to be sucessful as an industry.

I would suggest that we should be asking the homeowners what they want. A nice professionally built custom system or a nice professionally built packaged system. I suspect that when the warranty, support into the future, brand recognition, quality controls, listings and certifications are known that many homeowners will select a professionally packaged product for their homes vs a professionally site built product. Remember, we do not have the right to decide what a customer wants or gets, or what they can or can not afford our job is to advise and to deliver the best possible system.

Tim D.

Uni R

Which GM 350?

The Olds, Buick/Pontiac or the Chevy version?

Chris_32

Point

Good question but to me thats part of the point. One basic component with a few tweaks and it serves a different purpose. Not unlike having panels with different pumps, controls, or pipe sizes. I use some of the Danfoss units and I realy like the bottom line on those projects. In and out, no problems, no call backs, no worries.

We can certainly argue this for ever but I think the point that Robert Bean has made time and time again about a survival form is important and valid and it seems like Tim Doran is on the same path. It's tough to accept that our hard work and talents can be replaced by a part number in a catalog, but bare in mind that building the boiler room is but a small part of the job.

Chris

Uni R

Whoops...

It was more than tweaks. Actually, those were three completely different blocks that just happened to displace 350 cubic inches and bolt up to the same transmissions. A 4" bore x 3.48" stroke of the Chev, even larger 4.057 x 3.385 for the Olds and a 3.88 for the Pontiac and Buick with a 3.75" stroke.


Back to the topic, this seems very similar to high end bicycles. You can go to a custom framebuilder and have it made to measure and have it all built up to spec or you can just get a complete Colnago, Trek or Cerv

Leo G_99

When

architecs finally realize that the mechanical room is as important as the kitchen, then maybe the factory builts will be more readily used. But when I am faced with some of the "rooms" that I have to share with the sparky/vac guy/tele/sound/etc. then no, only a custom built panel will work. The analogies to cars and other products do not hold up here. As these are all factory built. Ergo, they are built to accept the engine or whatever.

Right now I am working on a townhouse project, that is radiant only. Am I using pre-fabbed panels? Of course! The Ipex injection panels. But remember, these TH units mechanical areas are all basically the same, (as in a car platform)so economically it makes sense to go this way.

As to the custom homes we do, most of the time only a custom panel will work. Funny thing is, all of our customers so far have commented on our panels. I know of three of them that take their guests down to the boiler rooom/closet to show off these panels. So please don't tell me that piping/pumps/controls/wiring/etc. cannot be made to look pleasing to the eye! In fact, that is one of my dislikes of the factory builts is they cover up what is inside. We find that most people around here enjoy the "industrial" look!

Leo G

Tim Doran

Best example

Actually non of them displaced exactley 350cuin so maybe the 350 isn't the best example from a pure technical standpoint but my point has more to do with the fact that it is a recognized product, it has dedicated support, a defined warranty, etc. You can get parts for it anywhere and it is easy to find someone to fix it when it breaks. It's widely excepted and understood. How many of us would except a custom engine in our work trucks vs. a factory product.

Maybe boilers are a better example. How many of us are still using knock down boilers in our typical residential work? How many are available? What are the reasons for using or not using them?

Tim D.

bb

another example

Tim:

here are a few:

what does a condensing unit look like?
what does a air handler look like?
what does a washer/dryer look like?

What does a radiant heating system look like?

No one can answer the last question because just about every one is a one off. I appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into make these, but if we look at the business aspects of the equation, why are we there? To solder pipes or to make a profit?

Without making a profit we won't be there to do any radiant heating systems!

Maybe this is why the hydronic side of the business accounts for only 5% of the HVAC market. Why is that when we say that a hyrdonic system is more comfortable for the occupants of the building?

Just food for thought, and too much time spent with The Bean.

bb

Leo G_99

Actually

there is more to this craft then just to make a profit. That is why we still marvel at the dead men's work. I oooh and ahh a lot more over a car that someone has taken and spent the time /love/skill to remake into their dream, then when it rolls off the factory line.

Call it ego, or call it pride in my craft, but I prefer to leave a legacy that people can admire, as opposed to a box that looks like every other box.

And the bit about if all systems were completed by a box, then everyone would be able to service them is a red herring. Aproperly laid out and executed custom panel, is actually easir=er to work on, as everything is before your eyes!

Leo G

hr

Freedom of choice, box or bag, paper or plastic, sir?

Some jobs are ideal for boxes on the wall. But not all It's that simple for me.

Looking at all the boxes on the market, and a handful of yet unreleased ones I have yet to find one with ALL the component brands I like. Remember, even boxes break down If the shoe, or box, fits wear it.

Don't judge a book, I mean box, by it's cover.

More important is the contractor/ installer understands what is needed, component wise, and why.

Packaging choice is in the eye of the beholder

hot rod

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