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CONDENSING SIDE WALL VENT = ICE
The vent is in the rear of the house because the owner didn't want it to be visible. Just look at what the steam does to the area around this thing! It's icing everything!
Hot Rod was right. I'll never again vent through the side wall If I can help it.
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Hot Rod was right. I'll never again vent through the side wall If I can help it.
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Comments
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You seem to have made a mistake...
... that vent location does not meet code, anywhere, as far as I know.- It's right under an operable window... did you screw that shut?
- It's right next to an operable door... did you screw that shut too?
- It's over a window... did you screw that shut three?
- It's also not installed 12" above the expected snow line... at least 3' in this part of the country.
Quoting the Vitodens TDM: The vent must be installed observing local regulations in addition to National Codes, ANSI-Z223.1 or NFPA 54. A vent must NOT terminate...- ....less than 7 ft./2.13 m above a paved sidewalk or a paved driveway located on public property.
- ....within 4 ft./1.2 m horizontally from service regulator vents, electric and gas meters as well as relief equipment.
- ....less than 3 ft./0.9 m above any forced air inlet located within 10 ft./3 m.
- ....less than 1 ft./0.3 m above grade level or anticipated snow level (consult local building authorities or local weather office). Locate the vent termination in such a way that it cannot be blocked by snow.
- ....within 1 ft./0.3 m of a window or door which can be opened in any building, any non-mechanical air supply inlet to any building or the combustion inlet of any other appliance.
- ....in areas where condensation may cause problems, such as above planters, patios, or adjacent to windows where flue gases may cause fogging.
- ....within 3 ft./0.9 m to the property line (advisable, not mandatory; please check with local building authorities and municipal bylaws).
- ....at a location where ice formation on the ground can present a hazard.
- ....so that the flue gases are directed toward brickwork, siding, or other construction, in such a manner that may cause damage from heat or condensate from the flue gases.
- ....where discharging hot flue gases may cause property damage or personal injury.
- ....within 3 ft./0.9 m from an inside corner of outside walls.
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Wrong on all fronts.
Constantin,
Don't want to bust your chops either buddy but hey, this is no mistake my friend. It meets and exceeds all the codes right here on your front doorstep.
1) No. I didn't screw the window shut. The window below has no hinges. It's a dirt crawl space below. The window has no purpose other than losing heat and illumination in a very dark 14" crawl-space. This home is over 200 years old.
2 & 3) Yes the door beside and window above opens. Viessmann specifies: Vent must NOT terminate within 1 ft./0.3 m of a window or door which can be opened in any building. (seems slim)
4) The termination is over 12" above grade to the invert. Viessmann specifies vent must NOT terminate less than 1 ft. /0.3 m above grade level or anticipated snow level. Anticipated snow level was asked by me to the local building inspectional services department. They said; "we go by the manufacturers specifications. We don't anticipate snow levels. Call the weather department" LOL.
You bring up very good points here but, the "hallmarks of code violation"this most certainly does not represent. This meets all the codes. I do have a proper permit on this job and I'm in full compliance with all the Massachusetts fuel gas and plumbing codes. There really can not be any liability on my part as I have met and exceeded all of these code requirements.
Page 16 of the Installation instructions for the Vitodens 200 venting system 5285 268 v3.1 tells all.
Refer to my recent postings regarding side wall vented boilers. I'm not going to do this again. I'm learning that the only way to vent a fuel burning appliance is through the roof.
Gary
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Where do you see a violation?
I've read the material. Where is this wrong?
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vent termination design
I have not worked with the Veissman vent so am not familiar with the unit, but I've worked on a lot of power vented and direct vent units. Seems to me the vent termination would be better if the flue gases could attain some velocity and blow straight away from the building rather than be directed up the sides of the building to create what you have. That is the purpose of the cone in the end of the Tjernlund Sideshots. The cone creates restriction of gas movement, which creates pressure (fan)and the pressure in turn creates the velocity to blow the flue gases straight away from the building at high velocity. Personally, I think it is a bogus termination design.0 -
That vent
would not meet code where I live Gary. 4' over and 4' down, no exceptions. 1 foot clearance for venting above a window, but not directly under a window.
18" above grade and never over a walkway.
Did you happen to take a picture of the dryer vent?
Mark H
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Hey Gary, I would be happy to be wrong!
I thought it was NFPA 54 that required a minimum 4' clearance from a combustion vent to all operable windows and doors. But then again, it's been years since I designed a gas water heater and had to deal with the regulations. Furthermore, I should have assumed that the Viessmann instructions were written to be NFPA 54 compliant...
However, allow me to respectufully disagree WRT the snow levels. If anything were to happen in that home, the judge would probably look at you funny when you say "I asked the departments, and they said, don't worry about the snow". I hope you have that in writing...
Common sense dictates snow levels of 3' in MA. We had them in '78, we had them this year, and they're likely to reach the same heights in the future. Nevermind the possbilities of snow drifts.
Also, see points 6 and 8 as far as the Viessmann install instructions are concerned. That window is going to get fogged (probably not a big deal) and the porch is going to get slippery (potentially difficult problem).
I agree with you that there are many reasons to avoid side-wall vents in this part of the world. However, elsewhere in the country, where snow is not as prevalent, the reasons not to use sidewall vents are not as acute.0 -
Mark,
Although this may not meet the code where you live, I asure you that it meets the code here. I'm not saying that it's is right. All I'm saying is that this meets the code here in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. It should NOT be ok to do it this way. IMO
Hey, I'll be the first one to say that I'm relatively new to condensing boilers. Been doing them for only 3 years now. When choosing a vent termination in the future, I'll try to be more carefull and weigh the options as this one is not working out all that great. Just so you all know, this was not my ideal and specified vent termination location. It was changed during the installation process after the HO and his wife saw how BIG the basketball hoop Vitodens termination was. I reluctantly changed the vent to a more convenient location.
Not sure what you mean by referring to the dryer vent.
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which code??
We went by boca code up until a few years ago. Under boca code this vent termination would have been in violation. We now go by international code. This vent termination is in compliance under international code. Code is a minimum standard. As contractors we can set our own standards as long as it meets or exceeds the state code. I think that's what Gary was getting at. I've done things in the past that were code compliant but I was not happy with the result. I then set a standard that we don't deviate from until a superior method comes along.0 -
location, location, location
Let's take Gary's word it meets code. I think we should focus more on location. "Mr Customer, it can vent here by code, but it is not a good location because of the door, window, etc... Lets look at other locations,other means of venting or other type of equipment."
Installers need to inform and educate the consumer. Take picture's of this install and use it as a reference (I encourage people to consider the location, when sidewall venting any appliance). We are the professionals. We need to do the right thing for the customer. Would you want this at your home? Let's work to bring the heating profession up to where in needs to be.
Thanks,0 -
Constantin
The four foot rule is for power vented applaince's. This is a seal combustion unit which is direct vent. I beleive the thinking is that a power vented unit take sit combustion air from the home and so creates a negative draft in the house. A sealed combustion unit takes its combustion air from outside the house and so dosn't effect the draft of the home.
That being said, I do think its a poor location. My thoughts are what about the ruling from a corner of a house.
Scott0 -
Very good points, Joe
Just because something meets code does not mean that it's safe. And I hear that loud and clear from Gary in his posting as well.
Perhaps Viessmann will bring out a Vitodens that isn't limited to less than 22' feet of concentric venting. The Munchkins, Trinities, Ultras, GB142's , etc. of the world will probably see to that.0 -
Interesting...
... you see, way back when I helped develop an outdoor gas water heater (ODWH), i.e. an appliance that wasn't attached to the house in any way besides the gas, and water connections. We had to write the rulebook for installations and specified 4' clearances at the time, even though the ODWH wouldn't produce any nasty gases under normal operating conditions (i.e. up to 50MPH wind gusts and all that).
I improperly assumed that the 4' rule is a national code, when in fact the US has a arbitrary patchwork of rules and regs. So, I can see how Gary's installation may meet local, state, etc. codes, yet vividly illustrate how minimal the codes are...0 -
All things concidered,,,
I believe there are no safety issues here.
The reason I'm posting pictures here is to educate others and learn from the input of my peers. The Wall is here so we can all learn.
Feel free to disagree with the anticipated snow levels here. I know that 12"ain't nearly enough yet it's ok by the books that govern. I'm actually over 18" from ground level here. Be it right or wrong, the point I'm trying to make here is that it may not be appropriate. Apparently this meets the code. I certainly don't find any deviations from big V's vent termination location requirements (for installations in the USA).
As I said; this is not an ideal location. Nor is it the one we had in mind when we started this project. Believe me, this wouldn't do any better in the front of the house either. The only place that a condensing boiler termination belongs is above the roof. IMO
RE: point's 6 and 8; There is no evidence of fogging on the windows above, below or any dangerous ice formations on the ground. There is no evidence to support the conclusions others have made here that this is in violation of code. Randy got it right when he said "Code is a minimum standard. As contractors we can set our own standards as long as it meets or exceeds the state code."
RE: point 11; A vent must NOT terminate... within 3 ft./0.9 m from an inside corner of outside walls. The wording clearly indicates "outside walls." I don't see how this could be interpreted in any other way. The stairs here are not an outside wall.
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Safety first
Gary, - I can see this is a sore subject and I have no intentions of sounding rightous in what I'm about to say, but, 1) "Being ok by the books that govern" will likely be little consolation to the father of the next 10 year old little girl who's body is carried from any house where she died from CO poisoning. - Just because the bozo's at the BD told you they don't anticipate snowfall, doesn't mean we go ahead and ignore that part... They did tell you to check with the weather service... Just as we design the system to heat the house on the coldest day of the year, even though that day only comes but once or twice a year, the same goes for snowfall that eventually WILL block an improper vent. It make take five years for that blizzard to come threw, but it will come. Indeed in the picture you posted we see the snow already at the line even with the bottom of the vent.
2) The vent must be installed observing local regulations in addition to National Codes, ANSI-Z223.1 - Viessmann does not superside national building/mechanical codes. and the one foot clearance is above a window. Any vent located under or to the side of a building opening must me a minimum four feet clearence. (Sealed combustion units still have a draft inducer...)
The fact that it passed code inspection does not make me feel better in any way since most of these idiot don't even know the codes. I've seen more building officials who wouldn't know which end of a hammer to hold, that got their jobs only because they have a brother in law or uncle elsewhere in the local government... I could tell you stories for three days straight about all the things I've seen with final approval stickers on them that were clear and blatent code violations.0 -
Safety first
Gary, - I can see this is a sore subject and I have no intentions of sounding righteous in what I'm about to say, but, 1) "Being ok by the books that govern" will likely be little consolation to the father of the next 10 year old little girl who's body is carried from any house where she died from CO poisoning. - Just because the bozo's at the BD told you they don't anticipate snowfall, doesn't mean we go ahead and ignore that part... They did tell you to check with the weather service... Just as we design the system to heat the house on the coldest day of the year, even though that day only comes but once or twice a year, the same goes for snowfall that eventually WILL block an improper vent. It may take five years for that blizzard to come threw, but it will come. Indeed in the picture you posted we see the snow already at the line even with the bottom of the vent.
2) The vent must be installed observing local regulations in addition to National Codes, ANSI-Z223.1 - Viessmann does not superside national building/mechanical codes. and the one foot clearance is above a window. Any vent located under or to the side of a building opening must me a minimum four feet clearence. (Sealed combustion units still have a draft inducer...)
The fact that it passed code inspection does not make me feel better in any way since most of these idiot don't even know the codes. I've seen more building officials who wouldn't know which end of a hammer to hold, that got their jobs only because they have a brother in law or uncle elsewhere in the local government... I could tell you stories for three days straight about all the things I've seen with final approval stickers on them that were clear and blatent code violations.0 -
Safety first
Gary, - I can see this is a sore subject and I have no intentions of sounding righteous in what I'm about to say, but, 1) "Being ok by the books that govern" will likely be little consolation to the father of the next 10 year old little girl who's body is carried from any house where she died from CO poisoning. - Just because the bozo's at the BD told you they don't anticipate snowfall, doesn't mean we go ahead and ignore that part... They did tell you to check with the weather service... Just as we design the system to heat the house on the coldest day of the year, even though that day only comes but once or twice a year, the same goes for snowfall that eventually WILL block an improper vent. It may take five years for that blizzard to come threw, but it will come. Indeed in the picture you posted we see the snow already at the line even with the bottom of the vent.
2) The vent must be installed observing local regulations in addition to National Codes, ANSI-Z223.1 - Viessmann does not superside national building/mechanical codes. and the one foot clearance is above a window. Any vent located under or to the side of a building opening must be a minimum four feet clearence. (Sealed combustion units still have a draft inducer...)
The fact that it passed code inspection does not make me feel better in any way since most of these idiots don't even know the codes. I've seen more building officials who wouldn't know which end of a hammer to hold, that got their jobs only because they have a brother in law or uncle elsewhere in the local government... I could tell you stories for three days straight about all the things I've seen with final approval stickers on them that were clear and blatant code violations.0 -
Gary and others
we have a real dilemma with chimney versus side wall. the chimneys are too big, too tall, not big enough, unlined etc. So we go to side wall venting. Now let us find a proper location yes that is the dilemma. Location, well the codes state Mechanical exhausting has the 4 foot rule. But then we have direct vent which can be much less. This is often confusion to say the least both by installers and inspectors.
This is not a new problem it comes up everytime we have a big snow storm then the snow melts and everyone goes back to doing it the way we have always done it. I can tell you this is the way it is and has been this way for the many years I have been in this business.Customers need to be aware that they have a side wall vented appliance and to shovel it out.
By the way I can tell you that vents on roofs can get plugged with ice and snow also. Many chimneys and "B" vents if you look at code state they must extend three feet above the roof. But then when you look at "B" vent terminations they can be down to 1 foot depending on pitch.
So now what do we do with the vent? Good question - my answer all side wall vents should be reqired to be at least 3 feet above grade. Manufacturers need to develop vent extension kits (some do have them by the way).
All chimneys need to be at least 3 feet and that includes "B" vents.
Now let us talk about roof top heaters. I have worked on many in my day shoveling a four foot drift off the top of the little devils. Vent blocked and fumes getting back into the dwelling. Solution get them up on a platform at least two (2) feet above roof level. Works great and make sure the platform is open underneath so snow will blow by the unit not stack up against it.
See there are solutions. The installers must get creative and go beyond the codes. Make it safer than the code requires. Think about what if????0 -
Kyle,
There is no possible way that a Vitodens can burn fuel without proving sufficient air flow. If the vent were to become blocked by the storm of all storms, the unit would simply shut down and give an error code. Lots of redundancies built into this heat source.
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Just say NO !
( Nancy R to sidewall vented condensing appliances. That's my latest motto!
Ya just never know which way the wind is gonna blow!
Most condensors allow a fairly long distance when you look at their charts and use the pipe upsize formulas. Plenty of distance to get to most roofs.
It's just not worth the call back, and potential
un-fixableness of a sidewall vent snafu.
Another issue of concern is the use of concentric vents with modulating appliances. It sure does concern me how well the exhaust clears, or doesn't, from the intake air stream when the blower ramps way down in RPMs. Seems the exhaust gases don't get much incentive to go up, up, and away. Long vent distance (higher static) would compound this issue. Perhaps part of the reasoning behing the short Vitoden vent specs?
Thru the roof with two seperate pipes and at least 3 foot of spacing. Straight up with the exhaust and a 180 bend (PVC trap fitting) for the intake. Me thinks.
Take snow loading into account for your area, and never, never install a vent low on the pitch of a roof that is metal covered, in snow country! I can't tell you how many snapped plumbing vents we repaired each spring in Park City.
A sure sign that another southern California plumber has arrived in town. Mountain, and snow country plumbers know better
hot rod
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The first condensing boiler I put in
Was a Weil Mclain Ultra. We almost soiled our briefs when we saw the vaporpouring out of the vent. The house and vent termination was right next to a shopping center parking lot and I knew it would only be a matter of time before some unsuspecting do-gooder called it in as a house fire. The homeowner was a little schocked but didn't seem to mind. Actually the relative humidity was about as high as it could be the night she fired up...so it was as bad as it was going to be. I'm not kidding it was billowing out huge amounts of vapor clouds. We thought for sure we would get a complaint but we never did. Vent location, I agree, common sense has to rule the day. If I remember correctly, we had to be a minimum of 3 feet off the ground, so I put it at four in case of a drift. I didn't know Hot Rod didn't like sidewall venting. Curious to see why. Mad Dog
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That does look like a "perfect" setup to get ice forming all over the place--particularly if the wind typically blows in the direction shown in the photo.
Part? much? of it [might] be a fluke however with the exhaust gasses warming things just enough to make the snow stick...0 -
Sore subject
A Vitodens simply won't work if the intake or exhaust becomes blocked. The control board on this machine and most other units also, will NOT allow pressure switches to be jumpered out as Mr. Yates points out in a recent related thread. This enhances safety and virtually eliminates any half-way repair measures.
This inspector in this town is top notch. He can find no faults with this installation because by the book it truly is deemed to be safe. I truly believe this to be a perfectly safe (however undesirable) location. Comparing this job to any of the deaths associated with CO poisoning is a bit drastic. Nobody's going to die here.
The one foot window clearance is NOT for "above a window." Please read Constantin's post > point #5 as this is worded verbatim from the equipment's manuel. "Within 1 ft./0.3 m of a window or door which can be opened in any building". This is a sealed combustion unit which is direct vented. If you were to inspect this and found any deficiencies, you would be incorrect.
I sent e.mail to all of our clients that have these in their homes and advised them to keep watch of the snow as we recently got slammed. They all responded and reported no problems. The photo of the frosting was sent to me from one of these HO's. Snow isn't anywhere near causing a blockage.
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THEN there is the noise issue of sidewalled
depending on proximity to the neighbors.
The large displacement condensors really howl when they spool up.
Didn't those eary "vacumn cleaner motor" Voyagers spin 10 grand or more?
I can't imagine what a improperly tuned side vented oil fired unit could do to some white siding?
Here is one contractors approch to maintain peace with the neighbors.
hot rod
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is it legal to bang the moisture around like a steam job....
ie on steam headers we bang the wet steam around with ups and downs to dry it out a bit, how about a 24 inch upsidedown "U" with condensate drains on both sides to get more water out of it, before "elvis leaves the building"?
also, i never saw that much comming out of any of mine -
after all. a condensing boiler is supposed to "condense" - not spray!!,
did you mess with the settings, on the ULTRA for instance, they give you enough "settings" rope to hang yourself with many times over0 -
And to think
I once considered pumping the condensate waters into the horizontal side vent pipe.
Let the whole ball o wax blow outside. Figured I'd kill two birds with one stone
Guess I'll scrap that idea.
hot rod
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i also wonder if..
there is any truth to the idea, of nutralizing the condensate, by running it into/outof a 5gal bucket filled with those white decortive stone chips, they sell for landscaping, this was based on the idea that the white powdery stuff was lime??? and if it is - how often must the chips be changed?0 -
I'm killing my tree..
roots AND neutralizing my condensate at the same time, just as you describe. If you're of the camp that thinks its OK to just let the condensate go down the drain without neutralization, I seriously hope that all of your drains are plastic... It WILL take cast iron drains out. The bottom flow line simply "disappears". like magic.
As for troublesome condensation, maybe dillution is the solution to pollution.
A small blower, located in a strategically located position, that when the burner blower is on, will pump copious amounts of free, fresh dry air into the outcoming flue gas stream to dissipate the condensate.
I think I smell a solution to the problem, brewing in my head... Could be the Chai tea...
Back in a minute... Here ya go!
ME0 -
Interesting concept ME
Probably want a damper in the additional fan to prevent fule gasses from going the wrong way.
Yet another "noisemaker device" turning electricial energy into noise. Where will it end
Another "add on" for condensors would be an intake air filter. For dusty enviroment installations. Maybe an air filter like those used on big semi tractors or heavy equipment.
I think GlowCore offered such a device once upon a time.
hot rod
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I have told
customers many times that I can not vent the appliance there because it it under an operating window. The reply is always the same. "The window is closed in the winter."
The same is true when using an indirect all year long. "The air is on. We don't open the window."
Can't win either way.
Joe
J.A.L. Co. Plumbing & Heating
Allentown, NJ0 -
Side wall vent
Yeah right, don't install side wall vent systems anymore because this one didn't work out. I've installed plenty and with more thought about location they have all worked without problems. I guess I'm just lucky.
David0 -
Diluted smoke
Chimneys of olden times were tall for good reasons. First, to provide cheap draft. Secondly, like any power plant today, to go spread the smoke up high in the sky, so that when it reaches back down to our nose level, it is properly diluted in fresh air. Clean and efficient.
All that made heap loads of sense in the coal heating days.
Today, with natural gas smoke that doesn't stink and with easy electricity it seems convenient to pipe exhausts without using a ladder.
Still, I prefer getting rid of smoke up on the roof. It makes sense to keep it away from where we breathe. The same way I prefer busses that exhaust their fumes through the roof rather than from under the bumper.
A power vent to the roof would propel the smoke into the sky. Even better.
There are chimney endings that resemble inverted funnels that suck in outside air, in a venturi effect, and shoot up a plume of diluted smoke.
0 -
Yup...
... we had a choice, and we built a new masonary chimney with an insulated stainless smoothwall pipe inside for a reason. The draft for a warm 45' high chimney is great, free, and we never have to worry about snow drifts up there.
I felt that combining the proven performance of tall, warm, masonary chimneys with modern materials (i.e. smoothwall liner) was the best of all worlds. If we ever want to switch to a condensing gas appliance, we can still use the chimney... We'd have to drop in a 4" Al-29-4 liner, but that's not the end of the world.0 -
Vito Vent Limitations
I believe the 20' limit is for horizontal sidewall venting. If you are looking at the Vito Installation PDF, look at page 27 and they say that the smaller Vitos can vent vertically up to 66'.0 -
just a bit more...
IE: after the the mix is cooled, it is driven donward through spinning slotted discs (driven by same motor - geard up) and then back up and out, so we get, bang around and centrifugal seperation - and the succeding 90's, will also muffle the sound, especially if you use flex0 -
So As Timmie says
Would that field installed device void the manufactures warranty is a problem arose ?
I agree with the condesate problem. It will eat thru alot.
I am suprissed with the amount of condesate Garys is getting from his Vitodens.
One last note, HR the condensors that we have installed are the quietest things I have ever heard.
Scott
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I thought the following caveat applied:
Vitodens' can be vented up to 65' high. However, if I recall my training w/Mr. McCarthy correctly, under such circumstances the combustion air must be separately supplied to the room, i.e. you cannot use concentric venting for intake and exhaust. Instead, you only have a 3"/4" exhaust coming out of the unit. As the exhaust is very cool, this is not a problem (the flue is zero-clearance rated).
However, it still leaves you with the issue of getting adequate supply room into the basement or wherever the Vitodens is located. Additionally, the unit will make some additional noise compared to a concentrically vented model, presumably from the lack of shielding by the exterior CPVC pipe.0 -
4 foot rule
I read NFPA 54 as saying 4 foot from an opening window or door when UNDER it. One foot when over it or to the side of it.
Besides, since when is the heating appliance the only thing that causes a negative draft within the house ? Any of these other appliances could pull fumes into the home.
I've read manufacturer's spec's that allowed for venting under a deck that was open on 2 sides... I just don't think I'd do it.0 -
Anyone still concerned?
The close proximity to the window above (as shown in the attachment) leads me to believe that this vent termination could cause an increased level of CO within this residence. Granted, the window must be left open for this to take place.
0
This discussion has been closed.
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