Mad Dog and others

jim sokolovic

Timmie, I wasn't aware of...

conventional burners using DSI, so I assumed it was only used on premix systems. I will inquire at the testing agency on the 1/3 input turndown, but at this time assume the test is run at the lowest gas flow rate where ignition can take place, while the combustion air flow is left at the normal ignition point (lean air/fuel ratio, but not 3x leaner).

I don't know of any recent projects where my company had to get involved with developing the standards. Some companies have representatives that sit on a committee for the standards, I understand.

I believe that if field personnel want to retrofit one our boilers with a different ignition system, it is permissable - if that type of ignition system is approved on that model boiler. We offer the parts and guidance to do this. If a certain system was deemed faulty, we would offer a specific kit to do this and encourage the retrofit. Once again, I am not in Tech. Service and am not familiar with all of this, to go into details.

Ken_8

Anomoly?

Bob O'Connor is the only inspector in the state that would have more than a clue (a lot more) than all the inspectors combined!

As Firedragon says, "FACT"!

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Mad Dog

There you go...more common sense from a Hydronic Giant

Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Thank You!

More real-life truth. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

C'mon Timmie, you taught us that in your class

I don't document it either or communicate with the manufacturer...who has time for that. I hear ya...you THE man when it comes to gas heating, but some it is just not practical to do out in the field. I ALWAYS stick around and do all kinds of test on my jobs. I'll tell you another thing: I wouldn't do ANYTHING IN ANYBODY'S house or building that I would n't do in my own...with my own precious wife and children. As I and the others have said...once I touch anything I own it, it all comes back to me....and THAT is HOW I operate. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

I know that Timmie

You are right and I respect what you are saying. However, we don't always have the conveinence and time to wait for exact replacement parts et cetera. People need heat and they need it NOW!!!!!! In all seriousness, Timmie, I would like to hear about some of the specifics of these court cases, i.e., what were the causes of these "disasters." I would like some examples just for my own edification and for the benefit of all here. Maybe there are some industry practices that we assume safe that really are dangerous. Have you ever seen a case where converting to a standard pilot per se - caused a disaster? Also, last question: Am I correct that 2 otherwise identical boiler models that are offered in S.p or spark also have other diffrences aside from the type of ignition? With all respect, Sir. I just want to clear this up once and for all. Your friend and student, Mad Dog

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Very Interesting Timmy

Particularly from the perspective of your experience and calls to be an expert witness.

"long standing practice in the field" Hmmm...

Just a bit of food for thought regarding that condition:

Standing pilot systems have a very long and well-proven record in the field. Alternative ignition systems in otherwise traditional equipment seem to have been forced on manufacturers due to changing standards.

Some work well, some work reasonably and others are decidedly inferior. It is those working in the field who come to learn which is which.

I would find it quite difficult to fault a field worker who through experience and judgment decides to change a problem-prone ignition system to one that is very well-proven in the field--regardless of implicit or explicit consent of the manufacturer. Of course such a change must be complete and verified for proper "standing practice".

Emergency situations sometimes call for stop-gap repairs--a situation that must be corrected properly as soon as time allows and regardless of any objection of the owner.

We have become so fearful of liability that everyone (particularly manufacturers) is constantly in search of loopholes to absolve themselves of such. To say that any unapproved modification releases the manufacturer from any liability only encourages some VERY bad behaviour on the part of manufacturers: deny, deny, deny that any problem exists to begin with...then let the poor sucker who tries to fix the problem take on the liability.

Unknown

Mad Dog there are many things

that have to be done in order to be able to properly service equipment with authorized replacements. This is why many control manufactuerers have come up with "Universal" replacement controls. I even have a guide which will assist individuals on what stock they need to have to service most gas systems. It all comes down to education and experience. I would be the first to tell you that in a night emergency the company I worked for had emergency procedures for the night. We did however go back the next day and fix the job with the correct parts.

What if you had a boiler with a Honeywell Q302 pilot with a CS82 powerpile cartridge and you needed a new cartridge. It is no longer available. Honeywell will not recommend a replacement. What would you do? Do you have a protocol for that particular pilot. I would doubt that you do unless you got it from me. I have done research and come up with an acceptable replacement that meets all the safety criteria needed. That is what must be done otherwise we can hurt someone. This is no differnt than what Dan does with all of his books which teach correct and safe procedures for servicing the system side of equipment. It is no different.

I could give you volumes of incidents relative to poor practices by service technicians which caused everything from fires to explosions. The space here nor time does not permit. That is why I conduct classes so that people can hear about these situations and learn from them.

When you remove a spark ignition system you are removing a system which is safer than a thermocouple system. That is just a fact. In addition if you do not know what you are doing you can change the ignition charcteristics of the system.

I recently had a case that changing a gas valve and incorrectly determining the correct valve caused a homeowner to get burned.

I had another one that the plumber advised the homeowner to use the manual operator on the gas valve if they had a power failure. The homeowner did just that and the relief valve was frozen shut. The boiler let go and did some pretty extensive damge to a new family room in the house.

I had a call today with high CO readings. The first tech went in and told the customer the vent damper was not working. He jury rigged the system to run - problem he failed to insure the vent damper would stay open. The wife and chidren taken to the hospital. The service company that I sent there found not only a failed damper but the boiler was plugged.

I could go on and on with all of this.

Many years ago I had a Bryant 2H pilot removed by a heating contractor. He replaced the pilot with a thermocouple pilot. Problem he never wired it into the system 24 volt system. Gas valve opened with no pilot and eventually ignited from the nearby pilot of the water heater. A very big boom. The customer was severly burned and in later years developed skin cancer. He won a very large settlement.

Truth each boiler system with its own ignition system is tested independently and must pass different testing criteria. So the answer is that there is a differnce.

I find it intersting that no equipment manufactuers have jumped in on this discussion. Hey maybe they do not care what you do to their equipment as long as you keep it running. As others have stated here they do not show up when the law suits prevail. That has not been my experience but I guess others have had that happen.

Mark Hunt

Timmie


A few years ago I was selling a particular boiler brand.
We had issues with the standing pilot version of this boiler. They would eat two or three TC's a year.

I called everyone. The rep said that I was the only one that had mentioned the problem(haven't we all heard that one?!?!?!) and asked if we had attempted to turn down the pilot pressure. Of course we had, but the pilot still sounded like a blow torch and the TC's were being destroyed.

So here is the sage advice I was given by the rep. Ready???

"Kink the pilot tube". I kid you not. When I asked "How much?" he said and I quote "A little".

I found out some time later that there was an issue and that the company knew about it. They had conversion kits at the factory for the assembly line. There was no way to adjust the pilot down. The repair kit included a new burner tube/pilot assembly, an orifice and a new spring for the pilot adjust. I ordered enough to fix all of the units I sold. BTW, I was never reimbursed by that company for the time we spent going back and retro fitting the repair part and never sold their product line again.

The only reason I ever found any of this out is because I kept bothering people about it.

Now answer this, If something bad happens to those units that are still out there with the MANUFACTURERS ORIGINAL pilot assembly, who will be held responsible? I guarantee you that the manufacturer will NOT be held responsible for anything that happens once that appliance is shipped out the door. Once an contractor buys the equipment, they alone will bare any responsibility/liability should something go wrong. Most contractors can't afford to keep a law firm on call 24/7 like the manufacturers can.

What if a boiler is sent from the factory with LP orifices and a gas valve that has been set for LP gas pressure, but no indication of the conversion on the packaging? Or vice versa? I have seen that too. How about a three out of eight burner tubes installed upside down? That one was pretty obvious, but the law of averages dictates that someone would have missed it. Who would get sued for that?

The long and short of it is this. We as contractors will be held liable for ANYTHING that happens once we open the box.

So I agree with you Timmie that we as contractors need to be EXTREMELY careful with every thing we do. Because when the law suits start flying it's every man for himself.

As contractors, WE are responsible for assuring that any appliance we install is working safely. No two houses are exactly alike and things change, but we are the constant.

All that being said, when I am in the field and I need to make a decision I do not call a lawyer for advice. If I did no-one would ever have heat or hot water. I test and re-test everything, and if I have to make a "temporary to get you through the night" fix, I always go back with the listed repair part as soon as I get it.

Listen up guys, Timmie is right. WE will get sued, not the manufacturer. YOU have the ultimate liablity for the safe operation of the equipment. Manufacturers do not test every piece of equipment they make, and even if they did they could not test it for every home in America. A "Factory tested" sticker means nothing unless you live in the factory. Remember that the next time you fire up a boiler or water heater and it's blowing 2000ppm CO even though you have everything to "factory specs".

Good post Timmie!

Mark H

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Mad Dog

Mark Hunt CANNOT BE DENIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He put it better than I could. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

I agree Mike ...very confusing

Excellent common sense points too. Mad dOg

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Tony_8

Timmie

First, let me say I understand your concern and appreciate that.

However, you seem to come off as thinking that if you didn't teach it, the man can't know it. Maybe, hopefully, that's only my impression.

I'm not worried about being sued by anyone. My repairs and modifications are safe, and above all, an improvement. Why else do them ? I've described my practices a little here, and my reputation is impeccable and known for many miles. I do not mean just for honesty but also technical knowledge and ability. It is sometimes tiring, but I seem to get the "hard ones" and "bat clean-up" frequently. Maybe that sounds arrogant, but I have references to back it up.

I nailed a design flaw on the Heatmaker 10 years ago, securing an authorized service contractor designation for a large area. They valued input from the field. HB Smith could've learned from them.

I'm glad others have found this thread and commented. I think you can see I'm not alone in my thoughts and practices.

Like I said, all techs are NOT created equal. Your lawsuit cases are the grossly incompetent ones. 2% making the other 98% look bad, just like lawyers

Mad Dog

THe last sentence - especially captures the reality of

the situation. Mad Dog

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