Mad Dog and others

Tony_8

change ignition systems if needed. If the unit is offered both ways then switching from one to the other shouldn't be a problem. Usually only a matter of components and the little plug in the damper, if there is a damper. If I'm changing, then the whole gas train gets changed. Pilot burner, valve, whatever is necessary. I hardly ever go back to a standing pilot. I have converted to HSI from pilot many times, most often on HB Smith GB series boilers. Those same series boilers have had multiple styles of pilot burners and locations for same tried and tested by myself until I found a combination that WORKED, consistently and safely.
I don't install standing pilots where they are unsafe, like sealed combustion or self-contained power vented equipment(think Dunkirk XE's).
I don't believe that manufacturers are the only ones capable of understanding design and combustion and implementing changes when needed to make a product perform. I also don't believe that every tech out there is capable either. Everyone has limits.
I don't care what everyone else is doing, I'm the one who has to live with what I do. I carry insurance, and have never had cause to claim in over 22 years. All the units I've modified light and run smoothly and more trouble-free than as built or I wouldn't do it, or leave them.
And that, is my stance.

Unknown

I am curious

in the post "Was I taken advantage of?" The question came up about changing from one system to another. It was determined that doing this is not a problem because everyone is doing it. My curiosity is now stirred and I would like to offer some questions:

1. Are you changing the pilot when you go from spark ignition to thermocouple operation?

2. If you are not then how are you getting the ceramically bonded igniter out of the old pilot?

3. Are you replacing the gas valve? If not what are you attaching the thermocouple to?

I am interested in hearing also from manufacturers who post here as to what the feeling is about converting equipment from spark ignition to standing pilot as a field retrofit.

Next question how do you feel about people relocating or altering the pilot or igniter on boilers and furnaces? This is being done and is being promoted by a nationally recognized training organization.

Last question do you know how to do a pilot safety turndown test and a boiler or furnace safety turn down test?

Maybe I am out of the loop on all this and should look toward retirement as this is all totally against everything I was ever taught and have been teaching for years.

Unknown

Tony, what tests do you

do after these change outs? Does your insurance company know that you do this? Do you work on LP gas? Does the customer pay for this modification? Is this equipment in warranty?

Is that change from pilot to HSI authorized by HB Smith?

Do you do a combustion test on every piece of gas equipment you service?

I am asking all these questions because I am seeing more and more of this everyday.

The local inspectors and I have discussed this and their stand on this is that if this is being done they do not know about it. In addition if they catch anyone doing it they will go after their liscense. Pretty severe stuff wouldn't you say?

I assume you are carrying insurance in excess of 6.28 million dollars. I do not expect you to reveal that as I do not tell anyone what I carry for insurance I was on a case that after appeal that was the settlement. In addition the technician was given three years in prison for criminal negligence. The modified installation caused an explosion and fire.

Sweet_2

Back to standing pilot

Curiuos as to why someone would want to go from spark, HSI to standing pilot? Seems counter productive. Didnt see original post so I may not understand whats goin on.

Tharon

taking a big chance

when you alter or change a boiler, furnace,water heater or any other appliance with out written permission of that appliance maker. Boy you have open your self up for a huge liabilty. Now you have changed the ari or aga rating, when you do this: hope you have large, I mean real large insurance coverage. Some insurance won't cover a claim when the apppliance fails where it has been altered. Just a point to ponder over.



Peace Be With You


David C. Broome

Unknown

Sweet the post is

still active on the Wall it is titled "Was I taken advantage of?

Mad Dog

I hear ya tony

Of course the pilot burner is changed. I always check draft, and carbon monoxide in the flue, over the fire, and ambient around the whole unit. We stay around long enough to make sures the unit cycles on and off, lwco works, on off with the t-stat. Timmie, with all due respect, and I've got a MOUNTAIN of it for ya!!!!! We, the serviceman and/or installing contracor are ULTIMATELY responsible for EVERYTHING. If we do something dangerous the manufacturer would be the first to throw us to the wolves....the insurance companies????? Even with legit claims (which we have never even had!!!!), they look for EVERY reason not to pay. You know its funny...I'm sure neither of their offices could be reached on that wintery saturday night so their opinions or positions could be obtained. When people need heat on a sub-zero night the guy did what he had to do. Is it something that should be done on a regular basis? no! BUt I still have not heard why it is that the same model boiler comes both ways spark or standing pilot. Do these boilers have different flue passages or draft conditions? I don't think so. With the butcher jobs we see just about everyday, and how fanatical and meticulous we test on each job, changing an atmospheric boiler back to standing pilot when you don't have the spark parts, is not something to lose sleep over. I know you worked in the field Timmie, but I'll bet most of this tech's nitpicking critics are disgruntled homeowners, jealous MBAs, and armchair boiler men who never earned a living directly doing the work. Contractors and their techs know.....sometimes you have to lean over the line a little bit to "do the right Thing" for freezing folks. Respectfully, Sir Timmie. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Tony_8

well...

Yes, the conversion kit came from HB Smith.

By test I mean I monitor the operation to my satisfaction. If you can't tell that a unit isn't lighting off properly and running properly and it causes an explosion and fire, then you shouldn't even be there alone to begin with.

A combustion test won't tell you what type of ignition system is present.

The equipment is generally out of parts warranty. But, if you had a unit that had the SAME breakdown EVERY winter, and the warranty said you had to just replace the constantly defective part, who cares about warranty ? Burn the warranty, at least that will produce some heat

I work on NG, LP, oil, coal,wood, HP's, et al. There are things I'd rather not work on, but little that I absolutely won't. I have units from the early 1900's I service, up to WM Ultras. I have a healthy respect for all fuels and electricity, but not fear of them.

I think your exposure to these big court cases may taint your perspective. Not all techs are created equal. Not all modifications are the same. Some are better, some not. Like I said, I'm comfortable with what I do.

And, my customers gladly pay me, especially when I make their lives better.

Mad Dog

I hear ya David, but what do you mean by \"fails\"??????

Is it now going to blow up because it has a standing pilot....the same standing pilots that are on water heaters and on most atmospheric boilers today. Standing pilot set ups are no more inherently dangerous than spark. Spark was born out of the desire to save energy and boost afue ratings. Boiler companies and insurance companies don't "recommend or endorse" adding draft inducers either, but what is the choice in some cases???? Death by CO or fix the problem and safely? I worked under a great and sharp old timer named Herbie. The man would NEVER do anything dangerous or silly, but he was an in-the-field pro who got the job done. I was a nervous nellie at one-time too. Herbie would say: "kid, if you're gonna worry about little s--- like that, you don't belong in this business!" Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Tony_8

well put, MD

"nervous nellie" I like that. I usually say Chicken Little

Find something unsafe about one of my modifications, bring lunch... for a few days...

If you're scared of it, stay home.

Mad Dog

Like my First Sergeant says.....................................

"Let the officers and REMFs worry and do the hand-wringing,,,,we gots a job to do. " Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mad Dog

KNOCKOUT SHOT TONY!!!!!

I like your style and confidence. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mad Dog

I'm gonna call you TONY THE TIGER

from now on. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

The further from my shop

the simplier I like to make the system and equipment.

My local Burnham dealer stocks ONLY standing pilot boilers. They don't even like to order spark.

With 90% of their sales in rual farming areas, it's very easy to find a repairman or LP service guy to service standing pilot.

Standing pilot keeps those nasty orfice plugging spiders at bay also

Heck the boiler manufactures have jumped around so much on spark, HSI, HSI pilot, Smart valve versions, etc how do you even keep current on what's out there.

Pretty easy to troubleshoot and replace a thermocouple

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

jbplumber

when was

the last time an inspector ever looked at a repair ?? I have never seen one ask to see my repairs just the new installs. So when and how are the inspectors going to start grabbing licenses. Thanks for explaining. J.Lockard

Unknown

Remember fellas

I did not just start doing this yesterday. I agree Matt and Hot Rod standing pilots are a better way to go time has proven that. That is not however the issue, the issue is modifying something with out approval or an authorized instruction from the manufacturer. In court judges want to see a policy that is acceptable as a "long standing practice in the field" that with documentation as to carrying out that practice. As an expert witness it is my job to support the contractor in his practice. That is impossible when modifications are carried out without a support system in place.

It has often been my responsibilty to come up with a replacment system for an old gas actuated or series 10 or series 20 systems. This was done with direct communication with manufacturers so that when we needed to change something we had a written procedure. When I look at Al Levis "Operating Power" I see organization and a system set in place for just what we are talking about.

Unknown

Tony and Mad Dog

Answer this question for me - do you do a pilot and burner turndown test when you modify a system?

Tony_8

furthermore

when was the last time an inspector DID a repair ? Would he know that something was changed ?

Robert O'Connor_7

Tony..

I would.Robert O'Connor/NJ

Sweet_2

I gotta agree

with mad dog an such. If youve got time and parts available replace with like parts. But O.T., blizzard No Heat as long as tech has some years under his belt and is familiar with change out ( if the guys on call he otta be familiar with eqiupmentbeing serviced) sometimes options are a techs best friend, not to mention cold customers friend as well.

Tony_8

Uh-oh trick question !

Well, why don't you explain this "turndown test", and I'll tell you if I do or not. And if it's always necessary for EVERY modification. After all, an HSI can't get a pilot turndown test can it ?

You may not be new to the game, but this isn't my first summer out either.

Unknown

Mad Dog, Tony

I am if you do not get it not trying to question your ability or anyone elses. What I am trying to do is help to keep you out of trouble.

It is important to do a combustion test when any modification has been made to insure everything is operating correctly. An example if you relaced a VS820C powerpile valve with a VS820A why would you need to test?

None of us have enough talent or ability to no if something is working correctly without testing.

What has as Tony put it "tainted my perspective" is seeing the bodies of small children carried out of a building dead. The cause was a modifiaction made to a system which caused the system to malfunction. It gets tainted when I sit in court looking at a 23 year old mexican girl with burn scars over 50% of her body. Cause - servicemans negligence. That was the 6.28 million case.

It is incorrect to say that the same pilots used on water heaters are used on boilers and furnaces. That is just what I am talking about it shows your lack of experience and expertise to make design change decisions.

My purpose in this posting is to send a signal to everyone that there is a right way and everyone elses way. You can go for many years without an incident then one mistake and it is all over. There is a plaque on the wall at the gas company I worked for in memory of a serviceman with 22 years experience. He took a chance one day and it cost him his life. The week before his daughter wedding.

I have been doing this a long time and have seen many things come and go. I have repaired many systems and done many modifications in my day all I am saying is PYOB (protect your own butt)

I can not speak for oil but I can tell you one thing you only have to be involved with one gas explosion or boiler explosion or see a water heater go like a rocket through three floors and end up in the street.

How many of you test the environment you are walking into for CO, methane etc. Does gas always smell or can the odorant be filtered out. Sorry to digress just trying to make my point.

Tony_8

Rob't.

You would be the anomoly here. Our inspectors wear many hats and most wouldn't know. Last year, one of the newer inspectors from a neighboring township asked me what a LWCO was when he saw it on a new install. They'd been required for over a year on residential at that point and always on commercial. He'd been a bldg inspector for 2+.

Unknown

Jim Lockard

it is different up here in New England. They require permits for some modifications. There is also a requirement to have a seperate liscense for gas, oil. Plumbers for instance can not install boilers or furnaces. You must be a Master pipefitter. There are many more restrictions. Then you have Massachussetts which is also very strict in some areas.

I would agree Jim most repairs are not inspected. My point was in respect to a discussion with a mechanical inspector asking me a question about a technician modifying a system and the customer called because the sytem kept failing. The inspector had called the boiler manufacturer and was told the modification was not authorized. The inspector ask me if I thought this was done very often and then stated if he catches anyone doing it again he will have their liscense.

Unknown

Tony, Pilot turn down test

is required anytime you change a pilot which is not the exact same one that was designed for the job. It will come up if there is a boiler explosion or delayed igntion.

It requires you to reduce the flow of gas to the pilot to the lowest point that will still hold the safety in. With a thermocouple system it must be reduced to 4 millivolts or less. Then you attempt ignition of the main burner. If it does not ignite in 4 seconds or less (emphasis on less) then the application of that pilot must be changed to another one then test again.

With a Spark Igniton system it is done the same way but with a microamp meter usually down to 1 microamp. On HSI and DSI you are required to do a burner turn down test to insure proper igntion. You reduce the burner input to 1/3 of full input and test iginiton. An example of 1/3 is typically low fire on many burners or the low flame on step opening. It can be done with gas pressure reduction to 1.5" W.C. which is typically 1/3 of 3.5" W.C.

This test must be documented for future reference in the event of an incident.

Tony_8

I never said

A water heater pilot was the same as a furnace or boiler pilot. The differences are obvious to me.
Actually today I put a Johnson universal 3-way pilot on a water heater. I junked the low output 1/8" pilot burner and it's .011 orifice marked NG because it kept going out on light-off. Tell me what's unsafe about that. Or my modification.

My lack of experience or expertise ? You don't know me or what I've done, seen or been involved with. Like I said, you're seeing cases of extreme negligence and/or incompetence in court. How many competent modifications do you think have been done for every court case you're involved with ? I bet you'd be surprised. Don't paint all with the same broad brush.

Unknown

Sweet that is fine

but it is better to do that and then go back and install the correct part when you can get it. The parts we are talking about are not obsolete they are readily availble. When parts become obsolete then we have to devlop modifications to help our customers. There is a procedure for doing that.

Constantin

I cannot comment intelligently on the subject...

... but it has never stopped me before from trying. I'm not a contractor, and I've only developed one gas-fired appliance to date (a measly outdoor gas water heater, thanks GRI!) to date.

Hwoever, I would like thank Tim for bringing this issue up and for being as tenacious as he has been to help the contractors on the Wall understand the very real risks they face in the courtroom should they undertake field conversions of tested and certified equipment.

My personal take is: If it takes a non-standard repair to get something to limp back into port for real repairs as parts become available, that should be OK. However, substituting new parts w/o the kind of testing that Tim advocates to cover your rear end liabilitywise is playing russian roulette.

So, many thanks for your thoughtful posts, Tim, I really appreciate the discussion that you have gotten going. I also very much enjoy the many other posts re: the pros and cons of doing field conversions, so my thanks go out to those authors as well.

Unknown

Tony calm down

you did not say anything about the pilot Mad Dog did.

Did you do a turn down test on that pilot you changed?

Tony_8

That to me is

pretty much common practice, except, the documentation. I turn down pilots as low as they will go and stay lit and check for smooth ignition on almost everything I service anyway, then adjust from there. That's with factory original equipment. I don't install smaller, or shall I say lesser, pilots. I'm trying to get better performance and light-off. ESI is a similar process.

Burner turndown, hmmm, 1/3 ? Maybe 2", but if a unit is designed for 3-1/2, why a third ? (Although those Smiths seem to like 3" better than 3-1/2" ) I understand you're reading from a protocol (written for the possibilty of a lawsuit ?), but in the real world I test equipment for the way it should operate at the conditions it's installed under. Flame sense on electronic ignition systems is 4-7 seconds, built in. And 4 seconds is a bit long for me.

Do you think that every time a Honeywell Universal Electronic Ignition system is sold or installed the installer has to or will do these tests ? Right... Most guys don't I'm betting.

Remember the Armstrong furnaces from the late 60's and early 70's ? Do you know how many I've found burning at 5" ? Most of them. So much for "as supplied".

I too am not doubting your abilities, but I think you have tunnel vision regarding liability. We will be liable, or at least sued, regardless of who's fault it actually proves to be. I'm comfortable with my capabilities.

Sweet_2

Tim youve insighted

some great disussions, and Ihave to say some real legitimate concerns so many variables in the field, cost, time, weather conditions, customers expectations. Im not saying these are reasons to do unsafe modifacations but a person has to decide for themselves hopefully with a little bit of wisdom whats right. We do it everyday we open our eyes. I appreciate your thoughts and Im sure, it will make me think about situations a little differently.

Tony_8

Not adjustable

I went from .011 to .018 orifice and three prong from one tiny thing they called a pilot. It lights IMMEDIATELY, not 4 seconds later with a whoomp and pilot extinction. Can't see ANY possible problem with that.

I am calm. If I wasn't I'd be banned.

Tony_8

I hope

in a different context than the other person who calls me that

Mark Eatherton1

Tim, I see your reason for concern...

but it is impossible to legislate "common sense". These components are available "off shelf". If thier application, or misapplication were so common place, I'd think it would be illegal to sell these parts without a required "perscription". I also know from where you're coming on the misapplication.

"If I throw this little flame in the combustion chamber, it "ought" to do the trick."

WRONG pilot breath. It has to be "strategically and properly" placed to insure proper and safe operation. I don't think that anyone here lacks the common sense required to properly place a pilot. Or at least has enough common sense to consult the maker to determine where they'd like it.

As for turn down testing, I do it on the large commercial equipment I service.

I've never down modofied a piece of equipment. I've gone from S.P. to spark ignition using factory supplied parts, but never the other way.

I've had more T-couple failures in the last few years due to cheap piece of crap T-couples from the manufacturer than I can shake a stick at. We quit specing standing pilot for that reason. Some of them fail YEARLY. We've started replacing them with the EXTRA HEAVY DUTY thermocouples (Johnson Bull Dog?). Does that extend my liability beyond the original manufacturers? I suppose it does, but evey time I TOUCH the appliance, I assume a greater liability.

If their piece of crap T-couple fails while the family is in Florida for 2 weeks and the house completely freezes doing 100's of thousands of dollars worth of damage, is the manufacturer going to step up to the pump at payout time?

Been there, seen that, and they were NO WHERE to be found.

Tis a litiguous society in which we live...

ME

jim sokolovic

Timmie, I was wondering if you are referencing...

> is required anytime you change a pilot which is

> not the exact same one that was designed for the

> job. It will come up if there is a boiler

> explosion or delayed igntion.

>

> It requires you

> to reduce the flow of gas to the pilot to the

> lowest point that will still hold the safety in.

> With a thermocouple system it must be reduced to

> 4 millivolts or less. Then you attempt ignition

> of the main burner. If it does not ignite in 4

> seconds or less (emphasis on less) then the

> application of that pilot must be changed to

> another one then test again.

>

> With a Spark

> Igniton system it is done the same way but with a

> microamp meter usually down to 1 microamp. On HSI

> and DSI you are required to do a burner turn down

> test to insure proper igntion. You reduce the

> burner input to 1/3 of full input and test

> iginiton. An example of 1/3 is typically low fire

> on many burners or the low flame on step opening.

> It can be done with gas pressure reduction to

> 1.5" W.C. which is typically 1/3 of 3.5" W.C.

> This test must be documented for future reference

> in the event of an incident.

jim sokolovic

Timmie, about the pilot turndown test...

you mentioned also about Direct Spark Ignition - I am familiar with this only on premix burners, where the air/fuel ratio is controlled at all inputs of modulation (if implemented). Is this related to the ANSI Boiler Standard - Burner Operating Characteristics? I see the input must be reduced to 1/3 normal (or the lowest input where ignition is permitted), by partially closing the gas valve. This is much different than testing at the minimum input, where the air/fuel ratio would be maintained (or a tad leaner). Reducing the valve gas flow rate by this much, and leaving the airflow at normal (amount of air needed for maximum input), would make the air/fuel ratio so lean it could never light. Do you know any further details on how this is done in this type of system? Thank you!

Unknown

Tony you got me what

is ESI?

Burner turndown is required on new designed equipment by ANSI ( American National STandards Intitute) and is a set figure of 1/3 of input based on whatever the required outlet pressure for the system is 3.5", 4" etc. It also is a determinig factor for step opening gas valves. the low flame is typically about 1/3 of input.

Flame response time on all Spark Systems is typically .8 of a second for a thermocouple the safe shutdown time allowed is 180 seconds. That opens an argument for a safety concern when changing from Spark to Standing Pilot.

The requirment for igniton in 4 seconds or less for equipment under 400,000 BTU's is also an ANSI standard.

Trial for ignition times on systems may vary from 2.5 seconds all the way to 11 seconds. Keep in mind most ignite in much less than that but there has to be a standard.

I do not base my instructions on what everyone does. My instruction is based on what is correct. If time and testing proves that technique old and out of date then I change to meet the latest procedures.

There is something a lot more important than the possibility of being sued. That is my customers safety and well being. You sound like a very talented and intelligent individual. I wish everyone touching fossil fuel burning equipment had your knowledge. The fact is they do not. I do not nor have I ever walked around worrying about will i get sued. I am a very calm and collected person. MY emphasis is as yours to help my customer. If I have a fault it is safety to a fault.

The day we paint our company logo on our trucks we are liable. What I am attempting to do here is educate people to what is right.

I have found by the way with some rare exceptions that with the very severe diagnostic procedures I follow that most of these new systems can be repaired without major redesign.

As for pioots on water heaters. Many of them come with a .011 orifice (actually an LP pilot orifice) and a pilot with the flame closer to the thermocouple to both satisfy efficency mandates from the government for one. The other is that when pilot was reduced it produced less millivolts. This is a problem what with ECO, spill switch and other millivolt draining devices on water heaters.
I understand why you may be changing a pilot for a larger one. The thing you must be careful to understand is that burner design and the pilot go hand in hand. The disadvantage of water heaters is that pilot gas is regulated. It is not on gas valves used on heating.

Last of all this is not a question of anyones capabilities, it is a question of going beyond what is perhaps really necessary.

Unknown

I hear you Mark

I fully agree. In fact back in 1978 I was on a committee for AGA and GAMA to develop protocol for retrofits, in particular vent dampers, spatk igniton and gas valve replcements.

We developed (with the help of a lawyer go figure) a set of instructions that are placed at the end of every retrofit type specification sheet. They are called Exhibit A and Exhibit B (lawyer stuff). They are designed to be used in the event of any question regarding an installation. Exhibit A and B have implied that the technician read the instructions for installtion, is fully qualified and etc. You and I both know that many times that is not the case.

Intersting differnce between you and Hot Rod, he seems to like standing pilots. You have seen as I have also "failures" of cheap t'couples galore in the past few years. I recommend the Johnson K16RA nickel plated high temp one for those applications which I find high temperatures at the pilot location due to boiler and furnace redesigns.

Most courts look at repairs to equipment done in what they like to call "long standing practice" procedures as a debateable process. That is what keeps "expert witnesses" in business. We have to define for the courts along with standards experts what is safe and acceptable.

Unknown

Hot Rod that is very much the

case here in Rhode Island. Most contractors do not like anything electronic (too many failures). If they had there way the vent damper would be gone also.

High end product does not have a big market here, again due to complexity.

Unknown

Jim Solokovic, to the best

of my knowledge the procedure for 1/3 input is for conventional burner systems and a different procedure would have to be used on many of the high end premix type burners. The 1/3 input is typically applied to standard cast iron, port , tube type pressed metal or stainlees steel burner systems. The typical furnaces and boilers using thermocouple, spark igniton, HSI abd DSI applications.

The test by the way is critical on warm air furnaces which have a much poorer light off charcteristic than many boilers.

I usually do this test by using the gas shut off on the line ahead of the gas valve and throttling it down and at the same time have a "U" guage at inlet and outlet monitering the pressure. In a lab I am sure a much more sophisticated procedure is available.

I am not sure if a standard has been developed for much of the high end equipment around today. I know that many times when a new product is developed the standard actually comes from the developer of the system who must prove it is safe and reliable. I think I will get in touch with Brian French over at HTP who is working on some of these very things. Are you folks at SlantFin doing any of this?

By the way what is your take on this scenario I have developed here?

Rudy

converting standing pilot to electronic ignition

after reading the posts on this topic i did some research&found the same paragraph in all 3 honeywell service manuals.a standing pilot furnace or heating appliance in good condition can be converted to intermittent pilot using the y86 retofit kit.kit includes module,gas control,ignitor-sensor and cables.the ignitor sensor replaces the thermocouple in the original pilot burner.since the pilot is not changed,extensive testingto assure safe lightoff is not required.however,field conversion to direct ignition should not be attempted.the eloborate and necessary testing done by manufactors and listing agencies to assure safe lightoff cannot be duplicted under field conditions.i found this info in the honeywell electronic ingnition service manual.hope this adds some light to the subject.