Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Was I taken advantage of ?
Mad Dog
Member Posts: 2,595
Hello y'all. I think this site is great since discovering it. Anyhow, we had no heat starting on friday morning. We called about 15 local companies and only 3 called us back. They all pretty much said that with the coming snow storm and cold snap already underway they couldn't promise us when they could come. BY Saturdat afternoon the snow was falling fast and we finally found a local guy in the yellow pages to come out. In an effort to be fair I'll say that they did tell us there was a minimum c heating call ($250)and that it could be more. We didnt have much of a choice and he was the only one that would come. After 10 minutes or so he said he found the probelm and it was the electrci ignitin module??? He said it was normally $650 to replace it to an oldfashoined pilot valve but that it being saturday night and a blizzard it was $850. Me and my wife discussed it and realized we didnt have much of a choice. Everything worked and is still working, but we feel we may have been taken advantage of. The guy was nice and seemed knowlegable but it seems that the parts couldn't be more than $200 bucks and the whole thing only took him 45 minutes. Thats $650 an hour. I've got an MBA and I don't get close to that. Am I being ungrateful and a pain or am I justified. Thanks guys. John
0
Comments
-
You could have said no
The guy gave you the option of saying no to the service fee, he came out and fixed the problem during a snow storm when no one else would, I consider yourself fortunate. Next time line up a company before you have a problem ( service contract)0 -
If he removed
a spark ignition system and installed a standard pilot system you got taken big time. Forget the price as service personnel can charge what they want and you make the decision as to wanting to pay.
He basically changed the design of your system. Did he have you sign anything giving him permission to do that? If he did not then the installation has legal ramifications.
An example of pricing on a total retrofit from a standing pilot system to spark ignition is the kit itself can cost $400.00 plus labor. Did he charge time and half or double time charges based on the time of the call? If so the price may be reasonable.0 -
Whether you were \"taken\" or not may never be known..............
But please do not try to hold up your MBA as something superior to what many of us deliver on a day/day basis - under less than ideal conditions. I can speak from personal experience: I've taken many many seminars and training coursesver the years (including Mr Timmie'S - the best!) spent thousands on books and the classes to0 be able to diagnose a problem quickly. Last, do you think the guy is actaully pocketing that much??? I doubt it, if he works for a legit shop, the overhead is huge and must be covered by the jobs. Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Do you think
he pocketed all of that money as profit? Or do you think that some of it covered overhead? I can see an overtime charge for Saturday night, not sure how an impending blizzard fits into it unless it was already snowing and blowing. Would you drive around in a blizzard?
Do you do late night service calls John? Are you on call 24/7? I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to possibly put some of this into perspective.
If you feel that the cost was excessive, call the company on Monday. But they gave you something no other company could when you most needed it. Doesn't that have a value?
What never gets figured into the equation are things like liabilty, comp and health insurance. Fuel and vehicle insurance. The cost for that yellow pages ad you found, the answering service that took your call and dispatched the technician. The training that went into making that tech knowledgeable enough to correctly diagnose and fix your problem. The money paid directly to the tech to allow him the ability to take care of his family and keep him in the industry. The electricity and heating fuel used by that company to maintain a shop. The up-front capital invested to keep a well stocked truck so the repair parts are available. The tools that allow the tech to actually do the work required. We haven't even talked about office personnel and office supplies. Permits, liscence fees, etc...............
Just some things to ponder.
We really do not get into price discussions here, as we have no way of knowing what the company you were dealing with requires to stay in business. Just because the truck says, "Plumbing and Heating", we are not all the same.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
I'm merely a homeowner, and I don't have an MBA. But they must have taught you in econ class that the only definition of fair value is what the buyer and seller agree on.
That's how one prices stocks, that's how one sets salaries (hence those high MBA salaries that are paid by the month, not earned an hour at a time), and that's also how one prices services like what you received. There is no abstract concept of the correct price; if there were, beer would be cheap at ballparks.
In this case, it's a matter of supply and demand; if more people were available to do emergency calls, the price would be lower due to competition. Clearly the prospect of large profits was not exciting enough to get more people into the emergency-service-call business.
That said, I'm sorry you had no choice but to pay so much to get your system working again. I would be pissed too.0 -
0 -
hmm
Saturday night, snow storm, no heat. If it was me I wouldn't care what it cost to fix, my family needs to stay warm and they come first.0 -
Opinions? Here's mine.
Everything works and it's still working.
You had no heat. You found a local guy in the yellow pages to come out. They advised to you that there was a "minimum charge" for a heating call ($250) and that it could be more." You were cold. You said that you "didn't have much of a choice" but, you allways have choices. That man was the only one that would come out in your area. After 10 minutes or so, he found the problem (the electronic ignitin module) and said "it was normally $650 to replace it to an old style pilot valve but that it being Saturday night and a blizzard it was $850". WOW! He had one on his truck? Lucky you! At this point you had a choice. Yes or no?
You may have been taken advantage of. However, the guy was" nice and knowledgeable." He fixed your problem and from what I read; "in a nice way". I feel it's wrong to compare your choice of education with his know how when determining someones worth. I hope you understand how much time we professionals must devote to continuing education. Before I say anything that may show poorly upon my fellow Wall brothers here, I felt that by you mentioning your MBA seemed a bit arrogant. How many hours will a man need to spend in a classroom to know just how to execute this service call? Never mind the hundreds of other problems he might encounter. Perhaps you with your MBA could have solved this problem on your own;-)
John, You are are on the verge of being ungrateful and a true pain. You could not have done what he (the hydronic pro) did given the situation and time frame. He fixed your problem. It might sting for a while but, at least the house didn't freeze. That would have cost a lot more. JMO
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
well
Perhaps you could of gone to a motel, winterizing the home before you left. When you came back home the heat would still not work. Its a shame you can not see the value in your furnacemans service.0 -
Laywers
charge that much, and more, and don't show up at your home in a snowstorm with a fully stocked truck 50- 80 grand worth. WITH the exact part you need to get you system going. I suspect he checked more than you realize.
Think what it would have cost if no one showed up and pipes started freezing.
Those that think this is excessive have little idea of what it really takes to keep a 24/7, rain or shine, service company running.
Sounds like he did exactly what you and he agreed to. Why the buyers remorse?
hot rod
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Service agreement
Jim K. nailed it. Sign up with a local contractor who you know and trust. This ties you in to a service/maintenance agreement which assures that your heating and cooling equipment is properly maintained throughout the year (including blizzards) and that you have piece of mind. You may wind up paying the going rate for the replacement part but may not have to pay out a high service fee since it is included in the cost of the agreement.
And who knows -- maybe the next guy you call from the Yellow Pages would have charged you $1,000 for the part. Take the time to do some preventive work -- rather than reactive complaining.0 -
MBA's are great
An MBA is great but you have learned what many tradesmen do; There is very good honest money to made in the trades! It is honest because of market forces you just encountered. Is it Honest for a doctor to charge you for a full office visit after seeing you for five minutes and telling you to take an over the counter medicine? Is it honest to pay hundreds to a lawyer who spends five minutes getting you out of legal jam? Is it honest to pay a heating tech a premium to come out on a Saturday NIGHT with a blizzard coming to fix your heat when no one else would?
I remember a joke that fits this perfectly:
A brain surgeon calls a plumber to fix his toilet. After 15 minutes the toilet is fixed and the good doctor gets the bill for $250.
He says, "Why is this bill so high? This is like $1000/hour! I'm a brain surgeon and I don't make $1000 per hour!
The plumber politely responds "Yep. When I was a brain surgeon I didn't make a $1000 an hour either.
When the excrement hits the fan you will find that unless the MBA is printed on really SOFT PAPER it will not help that much.
I think you should call or write this fellow and thank him for the good service.
0 -
> Hello y'all. I think this site is great since
> discovering it. Anyhow, we had no heat starting
> on friday morning. We called about 15 local
> companies and only 3 called us back. They all
> pretty much said that with the coming snow storm
> and cold snap already underway they couldn't
> promise us when they could come. BY Saturdat
> afternoon the snow was falling fast and we
> finally found a local guy in the yellow pages to
> come out. In an effort to be fair I'll say that
> they did tell us there was a minimum c heating
> call ($250)and that it could be more. We didnt
> have much of a choice and he was the only one
> that would come. After 10 minutes or so he said
> he found the probelm and it was the electrci
> ignitin module??? He said it was normally $650
> to replace it to an oldfashoined pilot valve but
> that it being saturday night and a blizzard it
> was $850. Me and my wife discussed it and
> realized we didnt have much of a choice.
> Everything worked and is still working, but we
> feel we may have been taken advantage of. The
> guy was nice and seemed knowlegable but it seems
> that the parts couldn't be more than $200 bucks
> and the whole thing only took him 45 minutes.
> Thats $650 an hour. I've got an MBA and I don't
> get close to that. Am I being ungrateful and a
> pain or am I justified. Thanks guys. John
0 -
Hi John
I will try to answer your question.
Friday morning you had no heat. In a 24 hour period you had called 15 companies in an effort to solve your problem. Of those 15, 1 in 5 called you back. None of the three were able to offer you any relief.
On Saturday night you found a contractor willing to come out in a blizzard to help you and your family. He gave you a price before he performed any work. You accepted the price. The work was performed and you have found no fault with his work or service.
You asked
Am I being ungrateful and a
> pain or am I justified. Thanks guys. John
The answer is yes. You are ungrateful.
You should be jumping up and down and singing praise for the man who left the warmth of his home and the comfort of his family to drive in hazardous conditions to help you and your family..
Do something nice for the guy who helped you.
David
gt; Hello y'all. I think this site is great since
> discovering it. Anyhow, we had no heat starting
> on friday morning. We called about 15 local
> companies and only 3 called us back. They all
> pretty much said that with the coming snow storm
> and cold snap already underway they couldn't
> promise us when they could come. BY Saturdat
> afternoon the snow was falling fast and we
> finally found a local guy in the yellow pages to
> come out. In an effort to be fair I'll say that
> they did tell us there was a minimum c heating
> call ($250)and that it could be more. We didnt
> have much of a choice and he was the only one
> that would come. After 10 minutes or so he said
> he found the probelm and it was the electrci
> ignitin module??? He said it was normally $650
> to replace it to an oldfashoined pilot valve but
> that it being saturday night and a blizzard it
> was $850. Me and my wife discussed it and
> realized we didnt have much of a choice.
> Everything worked and is still working, but we
> feel we may have been taken advantage of. The
> guy was nice and seemed knowlegable but it seems
> that the parts couldn't be more than $200 bucks
> and the whole thing only took him 45 minutes.
> Thats $650 an hour. I've got an MBA and I don't
> get close to that. Am I being ungrateful and a
> pain or am I justified. Thanks guys. John
0 -
you DID have a choice
John...As you can see from some of the replies, you hit a nerve with the MBA comment...and rightfully so. Just because you have an MBA degree or I have a CPA license doesn't make either of us any better/worse than the people in the plumbing-heating-cooling trade. Trust me when I tell you that the individuals in this wonderful profession have as much training/education, etc. (if not more) than you or I. We went to colleges or universities and learned our professions. The classrooms were different for many of these honorable men and women. Their classrooms were homes, offices, factories and also technical schools where they learned "on the job" training. It would be like you getting an "internship" with a Fortune 500 company and learning the ropes. They are also responsible for maintaining their professional licenses in many jurisdictions with mandatory continuing education requirements JUST like a CPA, attorney or other professional.
John, I would actually say that you, moreso than many other consumers, should know what it takes to run a business. You have a better knowledge of the business systems and operations required to run a first-class business. Concepts like unbilled time and overhead are not foreign to you. Please understand that I am NOT writing this to attack you. Simply to inform you. You did have a choice Saturday night. You could have gone without heat (not likely); you could have gone to a hotel room until Monday (possible) or you could have done exactly what you did which was hire a professional heating contractor who came out on a Saturday night, on a moment's notice, in the middle of a blizzard. That last point is especially important. The gentleman, like others have posted, put his own health and safety at risk to venture out in the blizzard to help your family. I'll use a sports analogy (since the football playoffs continued this weekend). It's easy to see what play SHOULD have been called after the play is long over. You have more information and feedback available at that point than you may have had at the line of scrimmage. I am glad that your heat was able to be restored quickly on a very cold, snowy Saturday night. The heating contractor who came out is every bit the professional that you and I are.0 -
Poor John!
In order to be the best at something, somebody has to be the worst. John, sounds like you score towards the bottom to me. Because YOU have an MBA (big deal) and YOU could not see the value in this business transaction. I wonder when this revelation about being riped off hit you?? Probably after a few hours in your nice warm house after your brain thawed out. Think about NOT finding someone to come to you're house and the fall out that would have ensued. All of you're pipes would have froze and broke and fixing them and the damage to the house would have been devestating, not to mention obscenely expensive. Why not use that degree to light your new pilot light...By the way, the answer to your question is NO, you didn't get robbed..Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
Knowledge
He knew how to get your heat back on and you didn't, even though I agree with some of what Tim said. When you hire somone in you are paying not only for the parts and pieces or for the time that they are there, you are also paying for the knowledge that they have.
Chris0 -
John as I am sure
you have now found out based on all the negative comments about your post you touched a sensitive area.
Having said that please do not judge us harshly. It is just that plumbing and heating trades people are so often looked down upon by professionals. The cost of doing business today has certainly driven the prices charged. It is without saying that many hours of training and experience come to many doors across America to provide heat, cooling and not the least of which health. Those comforts can never come cheap.
I would encourage you to come back to the Wall for help as everyone of those who have posted here despite their sensitivity to this issue would be the first to jump in and help you.
On the lighter side my son often goes with me on service calls. We have fun when we arrive at the door as my son has a copy of his doctorate. He presents it to the customer and tells them yes we do house calls. He has a doctorate in physical therapy so it it is a real doctor calling to fix their heat.
To all of those who posted here lighten up a little I think John got the message.
I am still having a problem with the design change to the system, Oh well they have heat and it works we shall see.0 -
Hey John
John , perhaps you can help me out with a biusness descision since you have the MBA and where just put in this situation this weekend.I understand where your coming from but you did have a choice you could have said no. Many of the companies you called do not offer 24 service because they simply do not have many people or the support staff and organization to run those calls. Companies who can do that have much higher overehead and can and will charge much more they have to because of the astronomical costs associated with that service. The tech who came to your house did not make 850$ for the call , most of that went to the company he works for . Just as with you ,you may be payed xxx a year salary with all your benifits but how much does it all add up to? How much does the company you work for charge for each unit of widgets wether that's time or something you produce and how does that work out to what your paid?
Now here's my question for you. We offer 24 hr service to customers who bought systems from us only. We do not make squat doing it. Over the weekend we ran several calls we also turned everyone away anyone who was not a regular customer. Those people where understandably upset they couldn't get anyone to come at all. Now i've been thinking of changing/exspanding our biusness model somewhat to accomodate all these people like yourself. In order to cover that exspense I will have to drastically increase rates to become more customer service orientated. I've been thinking about this for awhile. So what would your professors tell me to do? Help people and charge accordingly ? or just let people be cold?
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Yup,
It is apparent that John probed a rather raw nerve. We all feel better when our work is appreciated and when the payment is commensurate with the job performed. Furthermore, it is rather easy to secondguess the complexities of a different profession unless you've been in it.
Having said that, from an MBA-standpoint, John made the right decision. His BATNA was a frozen house with all the exciting possibilities for cracked pipes, etc. Winterizing a home in the midst of a blizzard is pretty impossible, unless you have a lot of glycol, pressurized air, etc. on hand to get all the pipes clear. This work, getting to a Motel, etc. would have amounted to more than $850, I'm sure.
On the other hand, inclement weather can bring out some pretty interesting market opportunities. For example, this morning an unsolicited front-loader stopped by the construction site and inquired if we'd like the 20x40ft2 front yard to be cleared for a measly $500. Thanks but no thanks!0 -
This is how one explained the degrees that I was payig to have our daughter receive. BA Bull-**** ; MA More ; PhD Piled-higher-and-deeper.
Having said that and not having any sort of degree, I think that an education is invaluable and wouldn't deny anyone one and do encourage all that will listen to get and education.0 -
0 -
Only You can be the judge of that.
let me relate,....a lady called me one day,could you come over and make the heat go. the next day i had only to call my neighbour have him bring 90 ' of chains and a long cargo strap or two drag me up over the hill,so i could drive down the moose trail along the power line down the path onto the road down to the highway,and a scant 30 miles home.i did the work for free.and paid for the deal,and when i left my home i already knew thats where id be going.....did you call that night to make sure he made it home safe?0 -
MBA
I dont know what an MBA is. But the way you worded that sounds like you think you are better than him and that you feel he should not make as much money as you or more than you. It also makes you sond very arrogant.0 -
I think you would be more pissed
if all your pipes in the house froze and flooded the house....how's about pnuemonia for everyone one in the house.....that would piss me off. I find the silence of John DEAFENING!!!!!!!!! Where are you Johnny Boy? Feel a little silly now? Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Wait a minute, guys, two points (BM)
Let's say your vehicle needed a flat tire fixed in the middle of a snowstorm (at night) in a remote place and the garage owner charged you $500 for the repair. Sure, you got back on the road in tough circumstances, but wouldn't you feel a little ripped off? How much is too much, regardless of the situation? I think the guy took advantage of John.
Second point: what about what Timmy said below?: isn't anyone concerned that this guy replaced an electronic ignition with a standing pilot? I can see a quick fix in a pinch, but has the guy returned with the correct part?
John, call the guy back and ask him to return and install the appropriate parts for your system. And don't tell him that you've got an MBA.
Bob Morrison0 -
Masters in Business Administration
Yes he does seem quite the arrogant elitist fellow...doesn't he? Usually depending on where they get their MBA from is commensurate with the level of snobbery, i.e., A guy with an MBA from State College versus an MBA from The Wharton School of Business. I know several MBA who aren't like he.......but there are plenty of so-called "professionals" that feel the same why just because they graduated from college. Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
However Bob, one always has a choice
You could ditch the ride and walk too. How much is determined by how bad you need something. How about this: what if the plumber broke down on the way to this call and needed a $500 dollar tow? There goes not only the profit, but he now is doing the job for free. Don't you think scenarios like that must be built in to a price? If it ain't you will not stay in busniess long. Replacing with a conventional standing pilot is acceptable and done all the time. Why do you think most new atmospheric boilers come with standing pilot now? Because of the tremendous amount of failure rate of spark ignition systems. Timmie, you could answer better than I, but are you telling me that the same model say Burnham or Weil Mclain that gives you the choice between spark or standing pilot has a diffrent design???That would be news to me....still need a vent damper on both, spill switch, rollout. What is the "design" difference? Respectfully Sir Timmie, Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Excellent point Joel
Yeah who would want to do emergency calls like that when you get the grief. Sometimes it might be better to stay home by the fire and let them get someone else. Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
I think it should be a policy not to even respond to these types of messages0 -
I think it should be a policy not to even respond to these types of messages.0 -
Mixed bag
Many POV on this unfortunate(but all too often occurring situation for HO's). When I was much younger, in the Navy, with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration,and on watch as the burnerman on an old 600lb. steam propulsion boiler trying to maintain 600psi when the cats took off, I felt I was better than my shipmates---WRONG! Perspective is everything, and sometimes it takes a while to learn.
Some of the reactions to John's narration of his experience are a bit extreme, and some are right on. Was he taken advantage of? I think he was a bit; but No one knows the full "lay of the land" here.
Which brings me to my real question. Why didn't John have an emergency back up heat source? I think it's something that should be considered more these days.
Jed0 -
MAD DOG just because
something is being done all the time does not make it right. It really concerns me when contractors start thinking that are responsible for redesigning equipment in the field. This comes from teachers who encourage people to change the design of equipment in the field without permission from the manufacturer.When some one gets hurt and the lawyers line up then we will see what happens. To the best of my knowledge the only retrofits available on the market today are to change standing pilot to spark ignition. If someone knows something I do not know let me know. A recent statement by one instructor about relocating pilots and igniters in furnaces and boilers scares me that is for sure. When I ask him if he conducted a pilot safety turndown test or burner safety turndown test his answer, "what's that?
The reason boilers are still coming with standing pilots is because many contractors do not like spark ignition systems. The manufacturers in order to maintain there market and still meet government efficiency standards still make a standing pilot boiler with a vent damper.
The term changing the design of equipment means changing any component on a system with something other than the comparable design system. Changing from spark ignition to standing pilot is not an authorized field alteration of equipment.
There was a very intersting answer to a question I posed to the NEWS a while back and answered by lawyer Tom Jackson on this very subject. What is the liability to a contractor who replaces parts with something other than a comparable design that is not covered by a control company or manufactuers cross reference. The answer you can be liable big time and you better have a lot of insurance.
I am a "expert witness" for court cases involving this very subject. I can tell you that the courts frown on contractors who assume they can do anything as long as they get it to work.
Truth is any design change on any equipment requires a third paty authorized testing agent to test the alteration.
There is more to this business than just fixing something. It had better be done right. You may work all your career and never get caught maybe just luck. One law suit for doing something you have no authority to do will break your back.
If something is not working then ride the manufacturer until he cannot stand hearing from you, make them fix it or don't sell or service their equipment anymore.
I have been doing it right for 40 years now and have not had anything that could not be fixed or replaced.0 -
that
is probably the wisest, yet most unrealistic, post on this thread
0 -
A simple phrase comes to mind....
Beggars can't be choosers.
Taken advantage of or not, I've been in situations where I needed something badly enough to pay dearly for it. I thought about it, made my decision, and purchased it. If I felt cheated, It's only because I cheated myself with my poor judgement.
So John, did you use poor judgement?
On the other hand, there has been times where the transaction has left a sour taste in my mouth. The seller may or may not be 'shady', it really doesn't matter. Just ask yourself how you can avoid that type of situation to begin with. (Service Contract, backup heating, etc.)
0 -
Plan B
Those of us who live rual(even in virginia) must have a back up heat source. Be it a wood or gas stove some form of heat that does not require electricity. Cause without it you are SOL.0 -
None of us...
Not one of us LIKES to pay what it is worth to have a service we cannot perform ourselves done for us.
Thankfully, when we DO need something done, there is generally someone out there willing and able to get it done..........for a price.
I;m glad we are in a country that is still free enough to allow market forces to encourage people to get into the right occupations.
BTW; The ball park beer example was a great one.0 -
In the Land of the Blind The one eyed man is KING.
0 -
PHD
Plumbing/Heating/Drainage0 -
John...
No one likes to pay $850 for emergency service...but...consider the payment similar to an emergency room visit...costs are higher because of the extra expense involved in providing the service on a standby basis. With all respect to Maddog, who has posted here for many years, replace the emergency standing pilot with electronic ignition...my guess is that this will cost you an additional service call...but do it anyway, and, if you can, try to get a relationship with someone you trust to handle your heating needs.0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.7K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 56 Biomass
- 423 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 104 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.6K Gas Heating
- 103 Geothermal
- 158 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.5K Oil Heating
- 68 Pipe Deterioration
- 938 Plumbing
- 6.2K Radiant Heating
- 385 Solar
- 15.3K Strictly Steam
- 3.4K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 43 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 18 Recall Announcements