Plea to the Viessmann powers that be.

Steve Ebels_2 · January 2005

I have a customer with no heat. His boiler expired and he is limping along on a wood fireplace and kitchen stove. It's going to be -10* here Friday night. It's 30* now and his house is 58*. Do the math for Friday.

I made the mistake of selling him a Vitorond boiler, NewYears Eve, standing in his basement, 10:30 in the evening. He understood and was fine with waiting for me to order it on Monday the 3rd and allowing 2-3 days for delivery. It is now the evening of the 11th and I still have no word or promise as to when this boiler will show up or even if there is one in the whole doggone state of Michigan!

I just got done trying to explain that to my customer and he doesn't understand. Frankly, neither do I.
I get Fed-Ex freight from the east coast in 2-3 days and I can't get a solitary boiler delivered here in 8?
You need (A:) a distributor who knows how to make things happen, or (B:) a distributor(s) that actually stock your line, not 2-3 boilers or (C:) Accept my check for an intial order and I'll stock'em myself.

PS: from what I can tell this is not a Sales Service Plus problem. Those are good folks.

Sorry to air our laundry out in public but I am frustrated. I work hard to sell an excellent product, the best product! Then, I can't get it when I need it. If a distributor has to order everything in, why have them in the first place.

Please let me know how much to make the check out for.

Steve Ebels
Ebels Supply Inc
231-826-3535 office
231-920-4808 mobile

Bill Nye_2 · January 2005

Steve

I feel your pain.

But, in the mean time, . don't you have an old used steel boiler like a ford or a columbia or a repco? My father always had something light kicking around, prepiped and ready. Maybe you should?

You just set it off to the side, pipe it up with pex...... Two January's ago -5° after a 10 hr day at work I "cobbed in" an out of the crate boiler in less than two hrs. Pex, old parts, a lot of imagination, and I was real pissed at my buddy for putting me in that situation. Motivation. I had to go back later and fix it of course but the house didn't freeze

Steve Ebels_2 · January 2005

That'll happen

Tomorrow if I don't get a firm answer from the distributor by noon. It's a worst case scenario because the basement and boiler room are a real giant pain in the access.

Thanks Bill

Constantin · January 2005

I agree that your scenario is unaccepable.

There is nothing like letting your customers down after you promise them a premium solution. However, I am also convinced that Viessmann can do (and has done) better than this on average.

I hope that they can improve their distribution chain to better stock, and track their product across this big land in the future.

Steve Ebels_2 · January 2005

That's the thing Constantin

I took a lot of time with him expaining the benfits of OD reset, swing out burner doors, 3 pass HX and all the rest. He recognizes good design when he see's it due to his line of work. To this point, he is adamant about wanting that particular boiler.

He's the head service manager at a Chevrolet dealership here and has a hard time understanding why the boiler is not here. In his line of work, they order at 6:00PM and it's there on the GM parts truck at 7:00AM the next morning. He knows how things can and should work.

Unknown · January 2005

Viessmann Availability

Geeze Steve,

I have not had any problems supplying my customers the Viessmann boilers they need.

What model are you looking for? Even if I did not have it in stock you would still have it to your door in no more then 7 days.

Steve

Ted_9 · January 2005

I'm not saying they are the same, but why dont you sell him a Buderus with the works. I know, you sold him on the Viessmann and I love it too, but do this man a favor and get him his nice boiler.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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bob_44 · January 2005

Test

Weezbo · January 2005

toearly_2 · January 2005

> I have a customer with no heat. His boiler

> expired and he is limping along on a wood

> fireplace and kitchen stove. It's going to be

> -10* here Friday night. It's 30* now and his

> house is 58*. Do the math for Friday.

>

> I made

> the mistake of selling him a Vitorond boiler,

> NewYears Eve, standing in his basement, 10:30 in

> the evening. He understood and was fine with

> waiting for me to order it on Monday the 3rd and

> allowing 2-3 days for delivery. It is now the

> evening of the 11th and I still have no word or

> promise as to when this boiler will show up or

> even if there is one in the whole doggone state

> of Michigan!

>

> I just got done trying to

> explain that to my customer and he doesn't

> understand. Frankly, neither do I. I get

> Fed-Ex freight from the east coast in 2-3 days

> and I can't get a solitary boiler delivered here

> in 8? You need (A:) a distributor who knows

> how to make things happen, or (B:) a

> distributor(s) that actually stock your line, not

> 2-3 boilers or (C:) Accept my check for an intial

> order and I'll stock'em myself.

>

> PS: from what

> I can tell this is not a Sales Service Plus

> problem. Those are good folks.

>

> Sorry to air

> our laundry out in public but I am frustrated. I

> work hard to sell an excellent product, the best

> product! Then, I can't get it when I need it. If

> a distributor has to order everything in, why

> have them in the first place.

>

> Please let me

> know how much to make the check out for.

>

> Steve

> Ebels Ebels Supply Inc 231-826-3535

> office 231-920-4808 mobile

Steve Ebels_2 · January 2005

Called the Buderus Distributor too

Same problem. No oil fired boilers in stock. I find it difficult to believe that I am the only person in the whole state that sells premium quality, oil fired equipment.
I don't know but I think Michigan must be some kind of third world country when it comes to hydronics in general and fuel oil equipment in particular.

I'll be the first to acknowledge that the hydronics market out here is not what it is out east. Still, it seems that there should be enough $$.$$ volume out there to support some inventory investment.

Dan_15 · January 2005

Steve,
Could you please provide the name of the distributor in an e-mail directly to me at jkennard@buderus.net

I can't promise they will stock Buderus, but we are interested in the distribution network and looking to work with distributors to improve boiler/parts availability. Thanks and best wishes on obtaining the equipment you need.

Paul Pollets · January 2005

Call

Ed Nordstrom at the RI office. Complain vigorously and make him understand the nature of the problem, both immediate, and the cracks in the distribution chain. Get a shipping and delivery date with no exceptions.

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Constantin · January 2005

Yup...

...the transformation of the supply chains in this country over the last 10 years has been nothing less than extraordinary. We have gotten so used to being able to track where a shipment is, when it will arrive, etc. that it's easy to remember the dark ages when the shipment arrived whenever the shipping company decided it would, with no guarantees, etc.

Unlike you, I have the luxury of being able to drive down to RI if need be, and to plead my case in person with the folks that run the US warehouse.

As Paul suggested, it is time to call the HQ in RI and pound the table. It is totally unaccepable that a premium supplier cannot give you a firm answer WRT delivery dates, etc. You can at least contingency-plan with dates.

In the meantime, I hope that you have a spare boiler that you can heat the place with to keep it above freezing.

Dan_15 · January 2005

Buderus

Sell him a Buderus. OD reset, 3 pass HX, swing out burner doors, for half the price. I got mine in no time at all; but then again, I live one state away from NH.

DanHolohan · January 2005

UPDATE

I gave Ed Nordstrom at Viessmann a heads-up that this thread was on the Wall. Ed immediately looked into it and it turns out that Steve's wholesaler forgot to place the order with Viessmann. Ed has been in contact with Steve and I'm sure the problem will be resolved very soon.

Thanks, Viessmann!

Weezbo · January 2005

*~/:)

this is great way ...:) Viessmann is good product and quality straight through....

Steve Ebels_2 · January 2005

I want to make something VERY clear

This is not a Viessmann Mfg. problem. I have never had anything less than stellar service, and support from Viessmann in any dealings or questions I have directly with them.

The issue of no stock is solely a distributor problem. The order that I placed on the 3rd was never forwarded due to too many links in the chain of "command". I don't know what else the words "customer with no heat" could mean other than to expidite the order ASAP but apparently that implication was not clear.

Both Viessmann and Buderus are absolutely the best to work with at the factory level.

I wish to offer an apology to the "powers that be" at Viessmann for not making this clear at the outset of my rant. I had no intention of stirring up the hornet nest that I apparently have.

The boiler has been shipped as we speak from what I understand.

Tom_35 · January 2005

Distributor's fault---

I would think that the fertilizer would be hitting the ventilator around that distributorship. A simple apology would not be enough to Steve or the homeowner.

Tom A

Jared M · January 2005

They don't care

"<<snip>> Steve's wholesaler forgot to place the order with Viessmann. Ed has been in contact with Steve and I'm sure the problem will be resolved very soon. "

And that is EXACTLY what is wrong with the distribution process we have in this business. We are still doing it the way our Fathers and Grandfathers did it years ago.

-Jared

Grumpy_2 · January 2005

Reaction to a disaster

In this very fractured business we are all engaged in, one of the very few things that seperate "Us" from the average "Joe Bagadonuts", is our reputation and credibility. No matter how much you explain to your customer that an error of this sort is not your fault, the customer still harbors doubts. This is a huge obstacle to surmount. No matter how well the system operates, five years from now, the customer will not be telling their friends how great their system operates. They will be relating about the days of no heat and the terrible inconvenience that they suffered, and guess whose business name will be mentioned in a negative light? If the distributor has any hair on their fuzzy butt, they will send a letter of apology to the customer accepting responsibility for the snafu. Sending a couple of gift certificates for dinner to the customer, and also to the contractor would also be in order.

Constantin · January 2005

Well, this brings us back to an old discussion thread...

... about the future of this business. I agree with you that the distributor should send a letter of apology to the homeowner and explain what happened. This may salvage some of Mr. Ebels considerable reputation with this customer.

On the other hand, I also think that this is a classic example why a manufacturer like Viessmann may consider going to a "direct" model. That is, don't have the heating professionals place the order with the distributor, have them place it directly with Viessmann. Pay it on the spot with a corporate credit card, etc.

Now that Viessmann knows that there is a need for a boiler in a certain spot, the wheels turn into action. Some distributors will have units "pre-deployed", others will ship them from their warehouse using UPS ground. It's a cost effective way to cover the entire nation for literally next-day service at ground-rate shipping rates with just 5-6 shipping locations.

IIRC, you could even use the logistics arms of UPS and whatnot to do the storage, deployment for you.

You can be sure that many distributors would not like to be taken out of the decision chain like this. However, unless they shape up, they will ship out, it's just a matter of time. As Scott and other luminaries on this board have aptly pointed out, they have enough business to the point where they could take boilers on commission and become their own distributorships.

Phil_6 · January 2005

100% correct

The way parts and materials are distributed in the heating/plumbing industries is an absolute disgrace. There are companies in other industries that distribute there goods the way that Constantin says, using the logistics and storage of the shipping companies that allow an order to be placed up to 2AM and delivered by the next morning ANYWHERE in the country. Goods are stored at warehouses at the airports and go on the plane in Kansas or where ever at 3 AM, the plane is in NY at 7 AM, UPS picks it up at 7:30 and at 10;30 it's in your hands.

So....if I have a 12 Noon tee time tomorrow, and I jump awake at 1 AM and decide I want that new golf shirt I saw, I can call up and have it in my hands in 9 or 10 hours without even getting my lazy butt out of my bed, BUT...if I need a part for a boiler and it's 3:00 on friday afternoon, and no one has it around here, and I call the manufacturer and they have it, it's like this..."Well, we're sorry Mr. Sucker, but the UPS guy came an hour ago, but don't you worry, we'll ship it out next day air on Monday...Oh, no, wait, I forgot, Monday is the first day of snipe hunting season and the factory here is closed, so that'll go out on Tuesday....you SHOULD have it sometime on Wednesday.....Yes I understand that you just installed the boiler and you feel a responsibility for their comfort...but "

Hey don't worry, I'll just put the family in a suite in the Garden City Hotel for a week....It's only 800 a nite

There is no reason that they shouldn't be able to hit a few keys on there keypad, find out which of their distributers have ordered or stock these parts, who might be near me or who can still ship it out. Other industries have it down pat. Soon ours will have it figured out and the middlemen and sales reps and supply houses will be reduced to peddling pipe and fittings and other generic products. Like Home Depot.

Okay, I got that off my chest ;-)

Phil

David Sutton_5 · January 2005

i don't think they are....

listening Dan, i'm very Glad to see a positive responce to this problem,

Unknown · January 2005

When our customers ask us

what the best boiler is to have in their home , I always reply it's the one with the best efficiency , and is readily available at a supply house in the area . The best boiler in the market might be the most important part of the equation , but I'd hate to have a homeowner wait more than a day to have a replacement part or boiler if catastrophe strikes . This could all be a moot point if you have no place locally that keeps stock of any high end equipment .

Jack_21 · January 2005

Rinnai 606

While I am a vented heater guy by training and inclination I have a lot of fuel companies that use the Vent Free model 606 for just such cases. they are ideal for temp heat. Modulates on the burner and blower from 6,000-21,000btu on LP. the advantage is they allow you to manage your business and the "crisis" to everyones advantage. www.rinnai.us

Constantin · January 2005

The one distinction being...

... that shirts are a lot easier to store, distribute, etc. than boilers. They weight less, take up lower volume, and probably have a higher value per pound too.

That being said, there is no good reason with todays supply chains for a premium company creating a point of distinction WRT its distribution process that illustrates to installers and customers alike why going with a premium supplier makes a big difference. People are willing to pay for convenience, darn it, so give it to them!

For crying out loud, many boilers are usually sold with standardized control/pump/whatever packages. You could create a web page in a snap that allows a customer to mass-customize their order, get everything major they need from one source, and be done with it. Then optimize the supplier chain to get all the stuff out that day, from different warehouses, if need be.

Computers can sweat this stuff, and inventory systems in distributorships and suppliers have been linked for years. For example, Frito-Lay and all the other food companies now on a minute-by-minute basis how their product is selling across the whole nation. It helps them deploy shipments and smooth out production, a big money saver. And it's not like chips are a high margin business...

No, the big issue in my mind are the folks who do the distribution. They want to stay in the middle to aggregate and prevent suppliers and users from communicating directly. It's a control issue and a information issue. Hopefully, a small innovative company can show the way to make for an alternative distribution model in this industry that everyone can then follow.

What we will see is a gradual flattening of the distribution chain, with fewer and fewer links between the supplier and the buyer. IMHO, that is a good thing, because I have yet to see a link in the middle that adds a lot of value.

Weezbo · January 2005

It is difficult to do work right any one who thinks its easy

let them give it a go.maybe it looks easy to do when you watch me do it..and maybe it seems So simple a child of 5 could do it...maybe it no worky quite like that when You give it a go! *~/:) A? sometimes i have considered getting on an aeroplane flying to where it is get the things and bring them back. how much cheaper would another 10 as if days BE?

Paul Pollets · January 2005

But....

Boilers are too heavy to ship UPS, and the manufacturer still needs to have strategic warehousing in key cities that make shipping and timely distribution possible.

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Constantin · January 2005

Well, perhaps we have just identified a new

...business opportunity for the folks that distibute heavy parts for other industries. For example, it would surprise me if car dealerships weren't served by an outside company that shuttles parts from their manufacturer to the dealership. They get heavy stuff in all sorts of shapes and sizes too. Ditto for the power industry, etc.

If these distribution companies think on the margin, they can increase their profits particularly in the more rural areas by taking on other jobs that the traditional distribution companies like UPS won't touch. Plus, there are some popular boilers that can be distributed by UPS...

If you look at the datasheet for a Munchkin, for example, none of the sub M399 models exceed the 150 lb shipping weight limitation that UPS sets for ground-shipping. Viessmann isn't as lucky, their boilers weigh a lot more... Cast-iron boilers are in a different category, naturally.

So I agree with you that there are practical limits to the speed with which you can serve a country as big as the US. Multiple distribution locations will be needed, good logistics partners need to be found, etc. But it can be done, and I believe that customers will be willing to pay for it and that the marginal cost won't be that high once the system is running efficiently because there will be a lot less inventory to carry.

Bart_3 · January 2005

Dist.Beef

I'm not sure what type of suppliers you people are dealing
with, (2 sides to the story). I have worked in the wholesale industry for years now,(meeting alot of knowledgeable people) I have also heard these types of storys floating around, but it usually ends up being the supplier whom sells on price alone with no
service(s) attached. WE too could sell products cheaper if WE dont have to inventory them or there parts. Some of us pride ourselfs on the services we offer (Heat loss/gain, duct design, HRV design, hydronic design, also with many licensed sales people on staff to asist in trouble shooting/wiring sch./parts breakdowns/estimating, shipping/expediting,,, etc. to name a few).
WE are not the cheapest supplers out there but WE get the
job done and done good. Some Manufactorers like this services and expertise given at this level. This type of thing does make alot of us (the industry)look bad though doesn't it. However some will still insist on price.
Sorry to hear your story of the unhappy homeowner.

Bob Forand · January 2005

Not Every Supplier...

Not every wholesaler is the same. There are individuals out there that will go out of their way to help in a crisis situation.
I have been in the wholesaler side of the business for some time and have known people ( employees ) that have done the same exact thing. I forgot to order it, I forgot to write it down, I gave it to so and so to do it...The list goes on and on. Well what made the difference was holding those people ( employees ) accountable for their actions. THAT is the real problem here. ACCOUNTABILITY not distribution. So please don't be so hard on distributors because we are not all the same.
The same can be said for the contractor side of the business. When you send your help to do a job, do they always get it right and if they don't do you hold them accountable ?
This reply is not meant to excite anyone either. I am only trying to shed light from a wholesalers perspective.

Tom_35 · January 2005

Accountability

I was at a seminar several years ago and the speaker, who had been retained by many Fortune 500 companies, stressed something to us that I have never forgotten.

"To be successful in any business, you have to have accountability and a sense of urgency." Had these 2 items been in place, Steve would not have had the problem that we are discussing.

His distributor should take a lesson from this thread. They should also do what Grumpy suggested earlier---at the very least.

Tom A

Mad Dog · January 2005

Don't apologize steve...........

they need to look in to the problem and this is probably the only forum that will really make 'em take notice. Feel for ya steve...been in your shoes before. The distibutor needs to keep a few on the shelves for the rainy day. Mad Dog

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Dave Stroman · January 2005

We have a local suppier here in Denver called Ferguson. They are nation wide and have distribution centers all around the U.S. I can have a heavy cast iron tub, or most anything else, shipped from their center in TX in 3 working days or less. On they other hand, last weekend I did an emergency boiler replacement and found a boiler on Sat. morning at Ferguson who were open until noon. I had to take what they had, but they had one that would work and the the old couple did not have to spend more than 1 chilly night huddled in the bedroom with an eletric heater going.

There are a few suppliers who are not afraid to stock product. They usually have what I need to get the job done. But there a some suppliers who afraid to stock anything that they can not move in 30 days or they get nicked a percentage from their corporate higher ups. And god forbid they have it on their shelf for inventory. I had seen them "sell" stuff back to their distributer only to "buy" it back a few days later. The stuff never left their building.

I hate it when someone tells me "we do not have it but we can get it". I am standing at there at their counter buying the materials I need for that days work. I do not have time for them "to get it".

Dave in Denver

Dave Stroman · January 2005

We have a local suppier here in Denver called Ferguson. They are nation wide and have distribution centers all around the U.S. I can have a heavy cast iron tub, or most anything else, shipped from their center in TX in 3 working days or less. On they other hand, last weekend I did an emergency boiler replacement and found a boiler on Sat. morning at Ferguson who were open until noon. I had to take what they had, but they had one that would work and the the old couple did not have to spend more than 1 chilly night huddled in the bedroom with an eletric heater going.

There are a few suppliers who are not afraid to stock product. They usually have what I need to get the job done. But there a some suppliers who are afraid to stock anything that they can not move in 30 days or they get nicked a percentage from their corporate higher ups. And god forbid they have it on their shelf for inventory. I had seen them "sell" stuff back to their distributer only to "buy" it back a few days later. The stuff never left their building.

I hate it when someone tells me "we do not have it but we can get it". I am standing at there at their counter buying the materials I need for that days work. I do not have time for them "to get it".

Dave in Denver

Wethead7 · January 2005

Supply Chain

The area{Kansas City} we are in requires us to purchase and stock supplies. Not one of our suppliers can supply the boiler, Air control/removal equipment, x-tank, controls, valves, Chimney liner, and other nesssary items. We sometimes have six or seven suppliers providing some of the products for a simple boiler change out. Some of the problem is that hydronic heating is limited in the area. The other part is none of the local firms carry anything that is better than basic. The simple pump with a flow-check is specail order. The area is mostly gas fired. The very limited oil fired equipment requires oil fired boilers ordered weeks or monthes ahead of time. Chimney lining sometimes require monthes of advanced ordering and deliveres come late. The supply side has become the largest problem for us.

The firm I work for next largest problem is finding and training staff. We have not lost any employees in over ten years, to anything but retirement. The finding suitable personel was what we thought to be our greatest problem.

I spent almost 18 monthes in Iraq, oddly parts being shipped half way around the wourld., was much less problematic.

Mike

hr · January 2005

Sounds like the thread should have read

Pleas to the (wholesalers) powers that be, not Viessman

Or switch suppliers!

hot rod

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Paul Rohrs · January 2005

Amazing....

to me how many threads starts out as topical but then delve into critiques of wholesale companies that are apparently below par.

How many boilers have been provided this year for new construction or replacement? How many of those did you have to wait on? I fully UNDERSTAND that I can bust my hump on 99 different jobs that are designed (no charge),quoted down to the last coupling, and delivered at their request. Then, when installed to spec with a CAD drawing of the electrical and mechanical systems, I am hoping to be paid in a little over 30 days. If the 1 job out of 100 has a problem.....

If Viessman were available at HD, would you buy it there? I would love a chance to earn your business, I don't care how many miles separate us. I will open up anytime with "no open door fee" or after hour fee. I do stock what my Heating Professionals need. Call me on my cell or page me on my nextel, it is always on. The neat thing is that my 13-yr old is mechanically inclined and likes to go to job sites with me. Give me a call, we'll be there. Now who would like a "Line Card" and a pricebook (of your current costs) of all of the products I stock. (WHOLESALE ONLY).

Regards,

Paul Rohrs
A Professionally Stocked Wholesaler

Dave Stroman · January 2005

Wow, Paul, that sounds pretty cool. Wish you were in Denver. There are a couple of local suppliers who I might be able to get to open up on a weekend, but like one of the previous posting, they may not have everything to do a complete job. But let me continue my rant....

I could never understand how heating contractors can totally depend on a supplier to do the heat loss, draw it all out, and figure every fitting. And on top of that, be liable if the system does not heat the building. I can see helping a new person until they get the hang of it. But after a while they really need to pick up the ball themselves. I stock tons of parts and fittings on my truck and I still end up running for the one part it turns out I do not have. And with all the free heat loss programs out there, they really need to do that too. The responsiblity of the heat working should fall to the heating contractor. The supplier needs to stock the materials and handle the defective returns. All the other stuff they do is gravy, which I take advantage on occaion, but not as a general rule.

Dave in Denver

Paul Rohrs · January 2005

Great input Dave..

Ditto to everything you said. We strive to separate ourselves from the pack here. There are not a lot of hydronic heat pro's around here. Seriously only about 5 contracting companies that handle radiant competently. The rest are servicing a customer base that has needs but they don't want to give up their clientel.

Off the subject, we are seeing a trend nationally of past due accounts on our receivables, (*your payables). There are some serious problems staying current. That again is why I will say, I will do all of what I said and more, I just need you contractors to stay current.

My peers here on The Wall are outstanding craftsmen, we have several craftsman here locally, but that doesn't always translate into good business men and women.

Lincoln isn't that far from Denver Dave.

Regards,

PR

Plea to the Viessmann powers that be.

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