Do condensing, 90%+ boilers always condense?

Floyd_7

Kal, here is an Ultra running @ 180*

Hooked the laptop to a 230 today and cranked the bugger up to 180... here is what it looks like....
I'll throw some other snap shots in there also... like a startup and a temp. change....
Haven't figured how to get the monitor images into a jpg format without taking pics. with the digital yet.... so some are a bit fuzzy, but you can get the idea.......
Also was bugging WM about bending the reset curve... they don't want to give me more points to plot for fear that they would have more so called pros. calling about what a pita it is to plot so many points, compared to those of us that would actually rather have the option of controlling the reset more tightly. Go figger.....
They are however, working on a "Nitrous" switch that would allow the reset to "boost" for a catchup or for extreme cold weather.... That would be "cool"!!!! If the customer says their boiler isn't keeping up in really cold weather, you just have them hit the boost switch till it warms up......then they can go back to normal when the weather moderates.

So many really cool stuff to do.....

So little time.....

Floyd

Kal Row

what software are you running...

and how is hooked to the ultra?

Kal Row

so to answer \"Do 90%+ boilers always condense? \"

up to 212f, anytime you can thermaly connect, return water of less than 212, to water vapor, which is the largest byproduct of combustion, it will condense the water vapor and impart btu's to the water, and whats left in the flue is co2 and as that expands out it cools rapidly - and aluminum is the best thermal "connector" of the all the heat exchangers currently in use

it works out - cause if you have a hot return, then the fire at the water discharge end is hotter and the water vapor produced is hotter than the return line end, and if the return is cold, the flame might be cooler, but the water vaport produced is still a lot warmer then the cold return -

so 90%+ boilers always condense - since they have their internal high limit maxed at 210 - it's just a question of how much

Floyd_7

The software is put out by WM....

It is a Honeywell product called Gascom....
The software loads very easily and is connected to a PC by way of an interface module. It plugs right into the brain box on the Ultra and hooks to one of the comm ports on the PC.
Very simple.... my understanding is that the newer Ultras have asecond generation brain box that allows the interface hookup without removing the cover to expose the brain. Plugs right in on the front of the Ultra. Haven't seen one of those yet.
I have been very impressed with the way things are working so far, it makes it a ton easier to program the boiler and even get the error codes off of it.
Pretty cool to be able to actually "see" what the boiler is doing.

Floyd

Floyd_7

Kal...

I think you may be on to something here.....In my experience these boiler have been condensing at temps. way higher than thought possible in the past.....
I think your right... they DO condense ALL the time... just the cooler the water the more.......
I have milked the tubing and watched it fill back up at return water temps of 160 and higher. I also have seen the water that is pushed back into the HX knock the flue temps down temp.
Amazing how that a little bit of water pushed back into that HX will have an immediate and noticable effect.

Floyd

Ron Schroeder_4

kal,

That's not true for flue gas, it's only true for pure steam. When water vapor is mixed with something else, it will only condense when it gets below the saturation temperature (dew point).

With 20% excess air (typical with a properly adjusted burner), that would be 135.8F with natural gas,129.6F with LP, and 122.2F with heating oil.

Ron

Ron Schroeder_4

No they don't. Not unless part of the internal passages are below the saturation temperature of the flue gas. Only pure steam will start to condense just below the boiling point of water.

I have seen condensing boilers running for hours with a 130F return temp with absolutly nothing coming out of the condensate.

By the way, flue gas can be below the return water temperature due to loss of heat to the ambient to the ambient air of the parts of the boiler that are not backed by water. This is especially true of low mass secondary heat exchangers.

Ron

Kal Row

have you taken a good look that the ULTRA's HX...

i would say it's a fair bet that they are getting mixture seperation - and getting the water to the dew point before it exits and at temps others are not

Kal Row

also - the condensed water...

is atomized and blown out, so even though you dont see anything in the drip - it' stil condensing and exiting - just hold you hand at the exhaust - my gloves get wet every time if tried it even when the gas was to hot to hold my bare hand there

Kal Row

there is nothing on WM,HW,or google on this...

how and where did you get it, can i download it anywhere
thanks

Ron Schroeder_4

Hi kal,

That is very much to be expected, the flue gasses cool some as they go thru the exhaust and also as soon as they exit, some outside air mixes with the flue gas dramatically lowering the saturation temperature. Neither of these effects add any btu's to the boiler water.

Ron

Kal Row

have run 90+ units with exhaust disconected....

and had moisture on my glove - if you look carefully at how it's built, the flue volume goes from small to large and back to small - at the larger part you get an effective pressure drop which raises the dew point of even a flue gas mix, so you condense and pick up latent heat of condensation, and then it flows downward more with the condensate and gets funneled into the discharge flue, where you get a velocity increase which drags along a lot of moisture – it’s the only explanation that flies, I don’t much like the low-mass hx to ambient cool down explanation, as these thing don’t seem especially hot in the boiler room as compared to older CI boilers, -and the also don’t have the excess air in the ultra that you mentioned as I originally thought– as they really modulate it so tight so that the air doesn’t effect a cool down of the discharge water – that what was bugging me all this time – they are really thrifty with the air in this thing

what I would really like to know, is what effect the expansion of the CO2 component has on this whole show

another thing – in the main passage you have all those pins sticking into the flue gas – and you get a pressure drop behind them – have you ever seen an airliner come in for a landing on a humid day with the clouds forming in the lower pressure area being the flaps – same effect here – contact heat extraction by conduction on the front upstream side of the pin – and condensation on the downstream backside of it – kewel – on the vie$$mann and munchkin you only have smooth passage contact – think the ultra’s setup to be superior

Unknown

like this?

Floyd_7

Kal, the part number..

on the literature is 550-100-040/0804.
"Control Addendum Ultra Interface Kit"
I would have bet my house that it was (the pdf version of the lit.) on the WM website, but it seems to have disappeared.
Also my distributor said he saw it or had it for sale.....
made a phone call.....it is in the new WM pricebook...
Part# 383-500-406
Give em a call.....

Floyd

Constantin

Note quite,

That's a F15 going supersonic, IIRC. What Kal was referring to is "furry-ness" around the edges of the wings as the airliner comes in, something I have observed both from the ground and the seat of an air liner.

The localized change in air pressure is enough to make moist air condense and turn into clouds. IIRC, it would be a drop in air pressure that would precipitate the water out...

Unknown

I beg to differ,

This is a plane right down on the water, photographed manually from a ship. The atmospheric pressure and RH caused the dome, as Kal described.

Look it up. This is an award winning photograph, so it is well documented. Thanks for "correcting" me, AGAIN.

Noel

Ron Schroeder_4

Hi kal,

When you get moisture on your glove right at the exhaust, that's from both mixing with ambient air and I would hope your glove is below 127F (you shouldn't be working if you had a fever of 127 ;-) ).


If you do get some condensation on the low pressure side of the pins, unless that condensate stays a liquid and runs out the drain, you lose all of the btu's that you gain if it re-evaporates in the heat exchanger.


The Ultra has a very nice heat exchanger design where the incoming combustion air surrounds the HX both raising the combustion air temperature for better combustion and also capturing most of the heat that normally would be lost from the outside of the HX. Kewel design.

The Ultra runs a little excess air but less than the 20% that most burners run.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against condensing boilers, especially with natural gas, but you can get surprizingly close with proper controls like outdoor reset and wide differential on a non-condensing boiler.

Ron

Kal Row

happens in my cessna 172 at 48 knots...

when i practice slow flight with 30degrees of flaps - whenever the temp and dew point are within 3-5 degrees - on those "hazy lazy days",
- it's acctually it more like a slow decent as the aircraft is already in a soft stall at that point,

i live right under la-guardia's approach to runway 4 in brooklyn and i see it all the time

the famous supersonic f-18 shot, could even happen with a 10 degree temp/dew point spread - because of the huge pressure change

Constantin

Glad to oblige

Turns out that was a F18. For an interesting and enlightening read, turn no further than this web-page, which details how the supersonic shockwave phenomenon seen on the image above differs from the vortices that cause "clouds" to form on or around subsonic wings.

In the case of the F18, the supersonic shockwave is compressing and expanding the air to the point where it condenses out. In the case of an subsonic airplane wing, the humid air condenses out due to low pressure being created by the shape of the wing, angle of attack, etc.. I thought kal was referring to the latter phenomena.

Is there a particular reason for the aggression in your writing?

Kal Row

ron - i had the same mindset untill recently..

the real world fuel savings is 20% plus - WM knows it's the wave of the future - otherwise why are they compeeting with themsles - as they still make a full line of CI's - they know that if they dont do it they will loose the business altogether when people figure it out - they had to cut through a lot of stupid negativity with this thing, but it's proven 15yr old swiss design and it's close to "poi-fecktt"

you will soon see lot of others with aluminum HX and churning internal designs the seperate the h20 and co2 for condensing - you heard it here first

got to run for weekend later...

Ron Schroeder_4

Hi kal,

Fuel savings of 20% plus? Compared to an average 15 year old installation.....very likely. Compared to a normal new mid range boiler with conventional controls...maybe 15%. Compared to top of the line boiler like a Buderus or WM Gold with outdoor reset etc....between 5% and 10% depending on the loads needed water temperature.

Where the Ultra really shines is in it's very low emissions, especially low NOx, it's modulation which improves comfort and reduces short cycling, and it's clean,attractive installation.

I don't have any biased negativity toward condensing boilers. In fact I have had quite a bit of experience with both condensing boilers and aluminum heat exchangers for over 10 years and I like them both.

I gotta go. I am testing a boiler that is so small and light that I can easily lift it with one hand. :-)

Have a good weekend.

Ron

Reynz_2

Condensing Boilers

Kal, Floyd,

I was talking with Dave the other day about our two systems. Seems he has a Peerless Condensing Boiler, with an indirect DHW, two zone system, and is having some trouble with thermastat overrun. He said he didn't have an outdoor reset. So, I'm making the assumption he doesn't. Why in the world would a HVAC professional put in a new boiler and not discuss an outdoor reset? Isn't it defeating the purpose? Is the Tekmar compatable with the Peerless? Any comments would be appreciated.
Oh, during our long discussion on the phone the other night, he kept saying "you learned this or that from the Wall?" I told him what a big help you and Floyd and others were with my system. Reynz

Uni R

Hey Floyd -- A PrintScreen Utulity

Floyd, this is what you want...

http://www.gadwin.com/download/ps_setup.exe

Floyd_7

Wow!!! Thanks!!!

here is a try at one

Floyd_7

here is the addendum in pdf

Had this squirreled away and came across it tonight.... forgot I had it... :-)

Floyd

Uni R

Kind of night to day...

You're welcome.

Mark Eatherton1

Ron,

I'd have to disagree with your savings statements as it pertains to top end boilers versus condensing technologies. I have two associates, both of whom are considered highly skilled hydronics technicians. Both have had top end german equipment in their homes for over 3 years. Both used top end German controls on their atmospheric top end German equipment, and both are so tight that they squeak when they walk... In other words, they set their controls for "Euro Cave" settings.

Both of them got an opportunity to install a "state of the art" wall hung condensing boiler, and both did so. The boilers they received did not have the "top of the line" condensing boiler controls installed. Instead, they were both operating around a fixed set point condition, using their conventional German atmospheric boiler controls (bang, bang)to reset water temperatures, and they BOTH realized a 30% (non weather adjusted)reduction in energy consumption over the previous years (it was colder this year than previous) energy consumption with the new condensing technology on line. Once they install the soon to be available control technology for their condensing appliances, I would expect to see their fuel savings increase even more.

Your milage may vary, but these two guys didn't.

I displace a 24,000 btuH input,40 gallon super insulated, bimetal flue dampered, fully outdoor reset dedicated space heating water heater with a 50K btuH wall hung Munchkin boiler (T50) and I too saw an average reduction of 30 percent in fuel consumption.

Whose boiler are you holding in your hand?

Time to go back to bed, hopefully she done snoring...

ME

Darin Cook_3

We will have more savings to post

We put in some condensers over the summer, I am looking forward to seeing the results in energy savings this summer. The fuel savings have always been at least 30% with past condensing installs. Our customers have proved the savings to us. I really don't care what brand condensing boiler it is, it will save a great amount of fuel. Not to mention the sealed combustion cuts the amount of air infiltration into the home considerably. Decreasing the always present " stack effect ". You can "tweak" CI boilers only so far. Not to mention the fixed firing rate on CI cannot compare to a modulating appliance. It is that whole city/highway mileage comparison. Condensing technology is the future.







Darin

Ron Schroeder_3

Hi Mark and Darin,

I guess what I am trying to say is that not all of the savings comes from condensing, in fact, in most cases a majority of the savings comes from other factors. Remember, direct vent, modulation, purge energy recovery and reset controls are not just for condensing boilers.

Just changing from chimney venting to side direct venting reduced my houses heat load by over 15%. Lowering the boiler high limit temperature from 180F to only what the house needs at the design temperature saved about 5%. Changing from a fixed differential of 10 degrees to auto adjustable differential of 20 to 45 degrees saved over 10%. And that's all with the same boiler and firing rate. You don't want to know how bad the origional boiler was, it was down tight scarry.

As Mark says, your mileage may vary.

Ron

Mark Eatherton1

That's conceivable...

Now if you'll put that hand held boiler you're holding in your hand in, you'll see an additional 30% reduction:-)

What brand is it?

ME

Ron Schroeder_3

Hi Mark,

The boiler is from a company that is not in the heeating industry. It's being developed for an entirely different application. I just got my hands on it because my cousin knows the designer. I expect it to be about 82% efficient.

Ron

Kal Row

in order to help we would need a lot of detaill...

remember how much time you spent showing us your system, it might be les painfull to find a profesionnal in your area alrady familiar with this stuff -

by the way the tekmar 5xx series themostats besides having the built sensor that all stats have, they can also take 2 aditional sensors - eg one in a slab and one outdoors and has all sorts of smarts

Kal Row

i give up...a year ago me a floyd spard over the same thing...

and he gave up setting me straight, he just let me watch him do install after install after install - and in each case the customer realized more savings than would be likely with just newer systems, and i already do CI with primary/sec/vari-injection ah-la tekmar - so i have a pretty good idea what the state of the art with CI can do, but the ULTRA can do better - sorry

we are not going to convince you, we can talk numbers until we are blue in the face, but you will find out for yourself, the fact the WM is betting the whole farm on it even though they make a full CI line should clue you in, other are too, it’s driving me crazy not to be able to say who – but I may be a tester on one of them so I am keeping my mouth shut

this thread is not about "IF" the utlra's doing it, that is already an experience established fact, but rather "HOW" is it doing it, we don’t have all the numbers, wm isn’t very forthcoming, floyd 's working on them


- it's like when dan holohan was in Germany with the guys years ago discussing waterflow into a panel radiator - and the guys kept saying "it's not going to work" - the guy took dan's hands and put it on the panel and exclaimed with snapping hand motion "T-H-E-R-E" - it's on his video – you need to take an ultra customer’s before and after gas bill and look at therms per degree days – and you will be on board reeeeeeal fast

Kal Row

yes the latter...but to be fair...

when i get a weather report on the ground of 3-5 temp/dew spread - at 3500ft where i am doing this, the temp/dew are probably right on top of each other, have even seen my prop-wash doing step turns on such days

anyway - it's not aggression - more like frustration, cause WM wont say how, they are leaving it to us to figure it out, they might even know how, as they did not invent the thing - it comes from Sweden or Switzerland - cant remember what the guy at ish told me - even got conflicting info from their own people, guess their CI people are protecting their turf, so i am short with people telling me that it isn't - while i am trying to figure out how IT ACTUALY IS!!!

right now the only thing the ULTRA is for sure not good for, is, a tall building where they cant put the mechanical room on the roof for some reason and they don’t want to use a heat exchanger, so they need something like a SLAN-FIN CRAVAN that can operate at 100psi good for a 233ft tall building minus the pumps deferential times 2.33!!! – that’s it – otherwise – this sucker should be very scary to CI people especially WM’s own who charges 20% more than the equivalent thing from slant-fin

Kal Row

there is actually a better shot...

of an f14 comming out of a power dive and going mach, that has huge "rams horns" showing because of condensing in the wintip votexes - then followed by the shock code decomression - cant find it anymore on the net, but i think the "rams horns" effect was in "top gun" or "the final countdown" - my "porno-graphic" memory is failing

Kal Row

Say ron: I thought of something else....

maybe it’s a “heat transfer speed” thing…

Maybe the extremely rapid heat transfer of aluminum causes a very rapid increase of the partial pressure of the flue’s water vapor component, and causes condensing were it otherwise wouldn’t

I know of one speed related property of water, that is: “freezing rain” – those cool ice storms - where precipitation created by a slow moving warm front riding up over a really cold front, and the precipitation, cooled well below freezing, stays in liquid state, as it’s dropping cause of the increasing pressure as it descends, but the instant that compression stops, ie it hits something like a tree or an aircraft – boom – it’s solidifies faster than it’s decent rate and thus sticks and coats – to the delight of children, but chagrin of drivers, pilots and power companies everywhere

May be this is another property of water, it takes 970btu per pound to go from 212 liquid to 212 vapor – so it’s holding a lot of energy and is dying to give it up – and needs only a little coaxing like a rapid vapor pressure increase

actually, there now, is a competition for the ultra, mad dog, is getting the “ultra” type of savings on his beautiful new “shteem” system – like 145per month on a pretty big house here in the “isle-of-long” as dan says – but steam, is like lightning up the whole house, when you just want light in one room, – but if you really do want to light up the whole house though, a good steam system is hard to beat, – though, it would take a real interesting HX design to utilize aluminums speed, for steam, without dissipation looses, – hmmnn.. wonder who’s working on it

Constantin

Very good points, Kal

Indeed, you could do some interesting things with pressure drops within the flue gas passages to convince more stuff to release its latent heat even if it wouldn't under atmospheric conditions. I'm not sure to what extent the HX of an Ultra can do this, as I am not that familiar with hardcore HX design, nor the limitations of making it all work (i.e. how much ΔP can you produce).

What I do suspect however, is that the flame speed within the Ultra (and hence the flue gases) will always remain below the level of an detonation (which produces flame speeds in excess of the speed of sound). Rather, I imagine that the flame speeds in all residential burners remain subsonic (and hence are defined as a conflagration, IIRC).

Way back when, ADL designed the standard testing machine for GRI to certify flammable-vapor resistant water heaters. Ensuring that the flame speed would not exceed certain speeds was a life or death design criteria. As it was, the "booms" from igniting the gases in the WH chamber would set off all the car alarms, even though most humans wouldn't be able to hear them while they were sitting at work.

Hence my point of distinction between a plane causing the dew to come out of solution due to a supersonic shockwave vs. the dew coming out due to simple low pressure in laminar flow. You produce dew in both cases, but the mechanism is very different, and the latter approach is obviously much quieter. For some reason, Noel seems to have taken my distinction between the two approaches the wrong way.

Anyway, I agree that the advent of WM going condensing is a wakeup call to the US industry. There are now many different condensing boilers to choose from and the CI folks are inevitably going to look at shrinking market share on the gas side. WM is raising the bar, and I imagine that the result will be for more US boiler manufacturers to be consolidated and/or to go out of business. On the other hand, we have also seen the rise of new, innovative companies like HTP that recognized the trend several years before the rest of the industry.

The building design you're describing is fascniating. Couldn't one use a HX under those circumstances, where the boiler remains at a low operating pressure (good for longevity) and the water circuit is what has the living daylights pressurized out of it to make it work? There are plenty of HX out there that accept 100psi differentials and besides, this is yet another way to ensure that the water running through an Ultra would be dead.

Mark Hunt

More good points Constantin


I saw quite a few "new" condensing boilers at ISH from CI companies.

I don't see how the trend can be stopped and don't believe it should.

I haven't quoted a gas fired HW CI boiler in years. I see no reason to, but this industry moves very slowly.

All in all, the numbers don't lie. All of our customers have seen dramatic reductions in fuel consumption and subsequntly, lower heating bills.

As demand for higher efficiencies increases companies will have to make a decision. Provide the product or fall by the wayside. That's just business.

We have seen the future, and the future is condensing/modulating.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Kal Row

cause for slow industry movement

a slant-fin sx-150 costs less than 1/3 of an ultra155 - and many people wont hear of an aluminum boiler - they have their brains wrapped in silver foil

It will change of course –
And I’ll bet that if you use a compressive blower to compress the flue gas after combustion, you might even be able to coax even more condensation out of it, though it would have to be computer controlled cause I think the more pressure the less latent heat extracted – we want it borderline just enough to coax it

Maybe like this:

Kal Row

better drawing

we would use one motor and three blower wheels for this show

ok people, after you finished laughing - lets hear intelligent critique - we should have the sense to build a better mousetrap