Average Life expectancy

BostonGC

How long will these "new" boilers last - i.e. munchkins etc?

What are the current thoughts on logevity of new "big iron" boiler, i.e. weil/burnham etc.

What about the bmw crowd, i.e. bruderus, Viess?

Seems to me if longevity gets factored in, the "big iron" still competes?

Mark Eatherton1

The one correct answer to all hydronic heating systems applies..

IT DEPENDS:-)

What kind of service will it receive.(Annualy, bi-annualy- NEVER)

What kind of service will it see (severe, residential, commercial)

It just depends.

My gut feeling for the Munch is somewhere around 10 years without service, and who knows with service. About double that for the Vitodens.

As for the Pig IRON boilers, their life expectancy under "ideal" conditions are unknown... I've worked on some that were 100+ years old, that will still trucking along. Not very efficiently mind you, but still ticking and kicking.

Then theres the actual fuel cost of operation. My partner replaced a perfectly good, TOTAL tricked out (Ecomatic) German cast iron boiler for one of the new wall hung German condensing boilers, and reduced his fuel consumption by 30 %. Hard to ignore those numbers.

I've been in this biz for over 30 years, and the changes I've seen in the combustion/heat exchanger technology during the last 10 years are UNBELIEVEABLE. If you'd have asked me if I thought it was possible to do tday what's being done today, I'd probably have told you "In your dreams..."

Kinda makes me wonder why I'd want to install a "lifetime" cast iron inefficient dinosaur with the technology moving at the pace it is.

In ten years, I may want to replace my heat source with something that can actually spin the meter backwards...

It depends...

ME

Constantin

Wouldn't this depend on a number factors?

For instance, whether PM is performed or not?

Some environments are more punishing than others...

Like Mark pointed out quite eloquently, well-maintained heating systems easily become obsolete before they wear out.

OTOH, that didn't stop me from installing a CI unit, simply because there aren't any low-mass modulating oil boilers available in the US. Even if someone like Viessmann were to sell their Vitoplus over here, you'd have to have access to low-sulfur fuel. For me, the Monitor FCX was not an option (too small, and likely too troublesome given our fuel situation).

Boston

What do I tell

the homeowner when the munchkin craps out in 6 years like my plumber says it will?

You ever see what a 6 year old house looks like? Still new. If I need to be crating in a new boiler every six years, it better spin the meter backwards!!

So is the choice efficinecy vs. longevity? What is the best compromise if I say I want something to last a minimum of 12-15 years with good care, but I want a real shot at 15 years, not like the roofing material guys,,,,,,,

Larry (from OSHA)

Mark - It depends

doesn't it. Ya know, that is the standard OSHA answer for most things too! For me, and I think for a number of other homeowners, reliability and invisibility are key factors. In my own case, my 20 year old Weil Mclain gas fired boiler is still running just fine every day. Has it had maintenance? Not as much as it maybe should have. Could it be replaced with something more efficient? Sure. Is there a payback in my life here in this house? Don't think so, unless gas goes over $2.00 per therm (currently about 90 something cents per therm). I think most folks are not like me when it comes to doing stuff with their heating system. I have added outdoor reset and an indirect DHW tank. I also changed the near boiler piping to pumping away just because it is the right thing to do. I think most folks take their heating appliance for granted and with the exception of people heating with oil, who really need to have annual service, the boiler just is there doing what it is supposed to do. Improved efficiency, just like safety can be a hard sell. (A lot of times it is hard to quantify) I've been trying very hard to justify the investment in a new high efficiency heating appliance, but for me it comes back to reliability. Be it an Ultra, or Munchkin or Big V. the complexity of these types of appliances is somewhat scary to someone very used to the old dinosaur technology W.M. The biggest failure that my boiler has had is the induced draft blower motor failing after about 15 years. Yes, I've replaced a few other things, but as for being in a situation where it just stops working I have been very fortunate. Perhaps my situation is not typical.

With regard to your partner and his new system, 30% of what and did he pay retail and have someone else install it? When you can get stuff for wholesale and labor is your own sweat, new fancy equipment is not only easy to justify, but it's fun as well. Look, I really don't like being the devil's advocate here, but unless I can barter some really good safety advice for a boiler install, I think I'm looking at hanging on to what I have for a while!

Thanks for listening to my rambling thoughts and I'm certainly open to anyone providing some data showing a reasonable return on investment for upgrading my equipment.

Larry (from OSHA)

jerry scharf_2

Too small

Compared to a Vitola, what isn't?

jerry

Dave Yates (PAH)

how often

do they buy a new car? Still driving a Model-T??? They're spending a new hi-eff boiler each year on the 4-wheeled beast (that's each one of them) and it's not giving the owners ANY return on their investment!

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

None of the condensing/modulating variety have been around long enough to know. The one thing that seems almost certain is that all require more frequent maintenance/inspection/cleaning than their simpler distant cousins.

My crystal ball says that there will be numerous changes in the condensing/modulating arena in the next two decades. New entries will build on the experience of the current successes and failures. As with condensing furnaces, the market is likely to mature as the now new technology becomes relatively less expensive, more reliable and ever more common. We'll also probably find that different designs are best suited to different sorts of systems and have the actual experience to know which is the best choice.

At present there appears to be a "standout" in the field regarding both efficiency and reliability, but my faith in American ingenuity tells me that such will change provided they see a sufficient market.

Constantin

Look, there are factors outside of your control...

... for instance, at the last Wetstock we heard that natural gas caloric values could vary by as much as 40%. There is no way that the gas being sampled was methane. More likely than not, the local gas company was mixing all sorts of things into a cocktail to meet winter demand.

And you know what? Allegedly, they aren't happy at all when people call in to inquire about what todays gas makup is... and you better not get caught sampling the stuff or they'll shut off your service.

So, how long do you expect heating equipment to handle that kind of abuse? No brand will tolerate such discrepancies forever, though the older CI units probably have more material to burn through before they'll leak.

Furthermore, modern units tend to be more complicated than their older CI bretheren. There are more electromechanical switches, thermistors, fans, valves, etc. As such, you are likely to have more service calls simply due to the increase in complexity that goes hand in hand with the increased efficiency. By and large, these components are reliable and barring a bad batch, are likely to serve for years and years before they wear out.

The HX is probably the biggest line-item that I would look out for. Before every job, I'd analyze the water to ensure that it doesn't contain too much chlorine and if it does, to treat it. Furthermore, I would fit a LWCO and disengage the auto-feeder to ensure than any leaks are caught, rather than letting a HX get plugged and/or eaten from the inside out.

I would argue that a Vitodens HX probably will last 2x longer than a Munchkin, Trinity, or somesuch HX under similar conditions, simply because the Vitodens has a very thick HX and a very high grade of 316Ti stainless steel. The thing is built like a tank!

So if giving a 20-year warranty is your thing, I'd sit down with a premium manufacturer and see what you can hash out. Many stainless indirect tank manufacturers offer lifetime warranties. Perhaps they can come up with a service program that will include annual maintenance and a subsequent warranty for 20 years on the heating side of the equation as well.

It wouldn't be the first time that a manufacturer raises the bar to differentiate themselves from the competition....

Constantin

Ah yes...

... and here I previously thought that a 8x20' mechanical room would surely be big enough to handle 2 Roth 275 gallon tanks, the 300 gallon fire supression tank, the water pump, the boiler, the indirect, and the 4-ton AH.

Well, we shoehorned everything but the AH in there. To think how much room the architect was willing to give up for infrastructure, I'm still laughing just thinking about it. Why is it that architects think that no mechanical room has to be bigger than 8'x8'? I think Architects should be required to spend time with trades before they're allowed to draw anything for anyone. Reality vs. paper, and all that.

The FCX is a neat unit. But at 75kBTU output, I'd have to buy two to cover my 87kBTU expected design-day heat loss, never mind the hot water needs of the not-yet-extant brood that my wife and I may produce some day.

Darin Cook_3

How long has the technology been

available in Europe? I thought the Buderus wall-hung condenser made by Neffitt has been on the market for almost twenty years.






Darin

Joe Brix

Even CI boilers today

Are built with lighter castings then 40 years ago. So I doubt we'll be hearing stories of CI boilers installed in the last 20 years lasting 50+ years. High repair costs and unavailable obsolete replacement parts will force boiler replacement every 20 years or sooner. Do we repair TV's anymore?

Constantin

Most of the EU stuff that is allowed to trickle over..

...has been on the market forever over there. Let's face it, between the low adoption (<7%) and the varying code requirements, never mind liability, the US market is not that attractive...

Think of places like China where the market is booming, hydronic heat is the norm, and there are 1BN+ people in need of heat...Yes, it's a risky market but at least the potential payoff is a lot higher.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Not sure about Europe but of the "plain" condensing boilers available in the U.S. the Monitor MZ has an exceptional track record of high reliability and low maintenance. This after having been "proven" in Europe. People here report that they have no reservation installing them in distant locations where neither they nor the customer want frequent service calls...

As far as I know, all condensing and condensing/modulating boilers available here have their roots, their HX and many other major components coming from various countries in Europe where they have generally been in use significantly longer than their U.S. counterparts. In most cases, the condensing technology [seems] to have morphed into condensing/modulating as controls became more sophisticated. The Vitodens [seems] to be the exception, being designed from the ground up as a condensing boiler with proportional modulation.

Joel M

Joe Brix makes a good point. The original oil fired cast iron boiler in my house was installed in 1951. It was a NRC, National Radiator Company, I saved the meddalion when it was replaced in 1991. It delivered 40 years of uninterrupted service, no problems that I remember, I bought the house from my father. I only replaced it because I wanted better efficiency. Some people in by neighborhood are still running the NRC boiler and dont even have it serviced! I know my Weil McLein wont last as long, but I already got 14 years out of it and it is running great, I have it serviced EVERY year and they replace any part that looks suspect, nothing major so far, relief valve, purge valves etc. I have a service contract so the parts and labor are paid. At some point the castings may crack and then I would look at replacement, but for now, we use about 3 gallons of oil a day for all heat and hot water. Not bad for the Northeast.

Constantin

Yup

At the end of the day, it is amazing how the folks in this industry beat each other over the head on price and leave the installation & service side of the business to others. I happen to think that there is far more money in servicing these babies than the initial sale.

The tricky thing is, how would a boiler manufacturer get a piece of the pie considering that entering the service business could really alienate present installers and maintainers alike, if not done properly? However, I think it'll take a big name like the OEM to plausibly sell homeowners a boiler and a service contract, to ensure that someone will come and fix the unit, even if the original installer retires, goes bankrupt, whatever.

For all I know, such contracts are being sold already and I think they'll provide upside for all participants. Everyone will sleep better at night, and the total cost ought to be more than reasonable for the homeowner. Plus, once the heating professional "owns" a piece of equipment, he/she is much less likely to neglect it, fearing that emergency call at 2AM for heat.

Ken_8

The source for condensing oil boilers is NOT

from europe.

It is from Long Island, Heat Wise makes the burner (condensing) for the FCX boiler by Monitor; the same guys who bring us the MZ.

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hr

The original installation

has a lotto do with life expectancy. You can easily destroy brand new equipment, regardless off the brand, by improperly installing and setting it up.

hot rod

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Constantin

Are you perhaps confusing something?

The burner, AFAIK, has nothing to do with whether a boiler can condense or not, unless you're getting into modulating the output. Once again, there are no US manufacturers of oil burners that can modulate as low as the typical residential demand calls for. IIRC, the only modulating oil burners that Brookhaven is currently evaluating come from Japan, the EU, etc.

In fact, one of the issues with the non-US burners (Hermann, et. al.) is that their maximum output may be too low to accomodate US heating requirements (i.e. nothing over 0.75GPH).

Furthermore, it is my understanding that Geminox has made the FCX for years and that MPI simply distributes it in the US. Follow the links past "range" to "oil", then look for the FCX at the bottom of the page. Even the name of the unit is the same. The UK site for Geminox FCX units even has a nice PDF to download. Plus, another UK site claims that the FCX has been on the EU market for over 20 years... However, I am happy to be wrong.

Presumably, Heatwise is making the burner for the US market since the maker of the Geminox burner probably does not have US distribution set up.

Darin Cook_3

That is a fact

The original installation is the maker or breaker of the lifespan of that piece of equipment. Warranty issues are 99% manufacturer related for us. We simply do not get virtually any callbacks related to our craftmanship. We service only our customer base. I DO NOT want someone I do not know calling me at 2:00 am with a problem. That is precisely why we do not advertise in the yellow pages and why our signs do not say 24 hr service. We will take on new customers with a service problem referred to us by another customer at our discretion. Wow, you might say, your company sounds like it has a big chip on its shoulder. Not really, it is just with our combined 40 plus years of experience we are tired of running on service problems we did not cause. Ask our customers about how they are treated and they will tell you, we will stop at nothing, no matter the hardship to solve their problem. But the point is that we line our ducks in a row at the start of the install, so that we are not running out late at night to fix what should have done right the first time.





Darin

Tony_8

Bingo !!!

My policy almost to a T.

I get sooo sick of "batting cleanup" that I could scream.

On the other hand, I'm less charitable when I do it on a job I quoted and did not get, usually due to price.

Pay now or pay for the rest of it's life, your choice.

Darin Cook_3

Kinda of funny - almost

We have received several calls this week from people who had gotten estimates in the past from us. They chose the cheap guys to "save" money. They now have radiant systems that do not heat their home when it is cold out. They asked if we could fix their systems, when asked why they did not choose us to install said system - we were too expensive. It has not gotten any cheaper several years later to fix it. So who was more expensive in the end? It is frustrating. We could run the business just fixing systems. It also gives a bad name to a heating system that is very comfortable when installed properly.





Darin

Wayco Wayne_2

It will be

less expensive to replace a condensing boiler in the future because hopefully the piping will be done correctly on todays condensing boiler. Then, there will be minumum piping changes when it does have to be replaced. Right now to change from a CI to a condensing there is a lot of piping to change and re-do. So many people just go CI for price right now because companys give a price to cut out and slide in a similar product. Not much work to do that. Once a condensing boiler is in, the next one won't be as hard to replace. I'm with ME. I want to see what's availible in 10 years, and maybe put it in my house. WW

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jbplumber

Big Box

With aluminum and plastic boilers, plastic hose and push together copper how long will it be before quick disconnects on the supply,return and gas allow the servicelady to walk in with a boiler under her arm and change it out? The big box could sell a service contact and guarantee performance forever. The UNITS could be serviced at the shop and exchanged every year along with a software update. bob

jerry scharf_2

A boiler lasts too long??

On the wetstock tour to HTP, Brian French made some fascinating comments (my paraphrase.) Could a boiler be made to automatically adjust to the caloric content of the gas? What is the limit to the mixing orifice size in the combustion chamber (think of the Viessmann matrix burner combustion surface.)

I have a feeling that my boiler may be surpassed by the time I start the system, kind of like computers. Not everyone enjoys it on the bleeding edge, but that's often where the most learning occurs.

having too much fun,
jerry

S Ebels

My crystal ball

Through the mists of the future< I'm seeing burners that monitor their own combustion process for optimum conditions. Things like CO, CO2 and O2, flue gas temp. They will be able to tune themselves on a continuous basis within a certain set of parameters. They will all have computer interface ports for data logging and fine tuning along with internet connections so you can check your customers boiler from your office and alert them before they know they have a problem. Circulators that vary their speed based on delta T or P will be common. Whole house building control systems that are relatively inexpensive. They will monitor occupancy and ramp the system up and down without the need for a setback T-stat or any thermostat at all. These systems will tie into your computer also. Another whole realm will be CHP type products that will supply and/or augment a standard heating and electrical system for a single family residence. I'm saving my banana peels as we speak!!

Changes are also coming in building construction for homes. There are a lot of new materials and methods out there that will become prevalent in the next 10 years. For moderate to cold climates I think you will see building designs that will heat with an input of 10-15 btu's / sq ft. For that matter, those numbers are acheivable right now. The people just don't understand the need to spend money "inside the walls".

I think our industry is right at the pivot point of changing drastically due to steadily rising fuel costs and environmental concernes. These are exciting times to be in the heating industry.

Glen

Your ideal is almost here -

it is in the form of a Vitodens. This has been a great thread - but IMHO it will be fuel prices and emmission controls/standards that drive any sort of industry move to improve efficiency or construction methods. Let's face it - we in North America are SOFT on emissions and are gorging ourselves on cheap fuel. And have done this for years and will continue to do this. This applies to our SUV's in the garage, home or commercial heating, industrial processes requireing heat. There was a thread recently re heating oil prices - on average the stated prices were about 25% that of Euro prices - and is there a boiler made locally that will meet or exceed the Blue Angel emission standard? In Germany if your boiler is not up to standards - you are given a reasonable time to repair it. If you don't - it is removed from your home. No questions asked. Regardless of age. This is not a discussion of "how long will it last" but "what will it do for me, my neighbourhood, my health and environment" While you might think this would be suffiencent to drive a mass consumers frenzy it has not. The consumer (res, commercial and industrial) will be dragged along - kicking and screaming - and it will be fuel prices based on world prices and emissions standards that recognize fossil fuel emissions as one of the major contributors to the air quality in our neighbour hood - that will ultimately drive improvement.
For those that have looked ahead - and have upgraded heating equipment to higher efficient units - congratulations. Like me - it was probably driven by the gas bill every month - my old furnace was only 8 years old. It's age was not a consideration when it was turfed out.

Constantin

Some minor corrections...

The car fuels are indeed a lot cheaper here than they are in the EU (by a factor of 4), however, heating oil has a much smaller discrepancy. We've had this discussion before and the price differences ranged from +10% (Boston, and Bonn, Germany) to about 40% (Boston, and some place in Austria). Granted, swings in currency always influence this equation in some form or other, but the difference is simply not as great as it is on the automobile side.

And you are absolutely correct that inspections are mandatory in Germany and that a piece of equipment that does not pass emissions will get red-tagged. However, I don't think these inspections are mandatory throughout the EU (I never had one in France), nor that they are that thorough. After all, at least in Germany, chimneysweeps have a monopoly on their given area and administer it accordingly. (Great way to drum up replacement business, for sure).

Furthermore, you are absolutely correct in pointing out that the US consumers, by and large, have a short-term focus and that they disregard the lifecycle costs of their product choices. To a limited extent, the DoE increases minimum efficiency standards in broad product categories every 10 years, but manufacturers always have mounted a strong defense against such increases, based on projections of lower energy costs in the future (due to deregulation), etc.

In the end, the only way to convince more Americans that saving fuel is a virtue is if world energy prices force our hand. It won't have anything to do with emissions, because the EPA is still being held back by the executive branch. Just look to what the Midwest coal power operators got away with 2 years ago...

Constantin

I don't know if I agree with all of that...

To me, a heating system is like a table with 4 legs. The four legs are made up of heating capacity, heat distribution, emitter capacity, and heat loss. Should all 4 legs be the same height, the system is balanced.

In the last 20 years, we have seen improvements in all areas of the equation. Besides strides in boiler technology, we have also seen great improvements in heat distribution, emitter choices, and means to limit heat loss/gain.

Therefore, I am not convinced that the next boiler in my utility room will not require some major repiping to accomodate constant ΔP or ΔT pumps, better mixing valves, and the like. On the other hand, much of the rest of the system will remain the same because the physics that govern the emitters and the manifolds pretty much will stay the same.

On the boiler side, I expect to see more boilers that modulate fuel and air separately like the Vitodens to allow CO₂-based feedback. It's the only way to ensure that these beautiful boilers can reliably withstand the onslaught of the curious "fuel" mixtures that the local gas company can assault them with.

On the emitter side, we may see a surge in radiant cooling applications. The technology is there, it has been proven in the EU for years, now its simply a matter of bringing it over here. Once more though, aesthetic and cost considerations get in the way of adopting innovative technologies, never mind the fear of being a guinea pig.

On the house insulation side, I also hope to see improvements in the future. While corbond is great, the real impetus should be on Architects to start spec'ing 2x6 construction on 24" centers, and a insulation material that not only provides thermal resistance but infiltration resistance as well. In fact, I hope that the R-values and the way they get calculated will be revised to reflect real world conditions.

However, it would be pretty interesting to get to the point where a boiler is just as interchangeable as the water heaters are today (flexible-hookups and all that). In the electrical generation field this is already the case today. You don't "own" a specific piece of equipment, as turbines get swapped out and replaced with a similar model before any repair work actually takes place. This minimizes downtime for the operator and maximizes flexibility for the people who actually service the equipment.

PJO_5

Hopefully, in 20 years...

there will be lots more "boilers" that don't burn any fuel...and have no pollution. They will also be more affordable and will be used in places that can't be now. Can't get more efficient than those factors combined!

Nobody mentioned solar (except for solar gain, I think) so I figured I would. That is, IMHO, where the true future lies for many homes and businesses.

Happy New Year!

Take Care, PJO

Uni R

> there will be lots more "boilers" that don't burn

> any fuel...and have no pollution. They will also

> be more affordable and will be used in places

> that can't be now. Can't get more efficient than

> those factors combined!

>

> Nobody mentioned solar

> (except for solar gain, I think) so I figured I

> would. That is, IMHO, where the true future lies

> for many homes and businesses.

>

> Happy New

> Year!

>

> Take Care, PJO

S Ebels

Solar might work some places

But not here in Michigan. Clouds rule about 250 days out of the year. I think I have seen maybe 2 sunny days out of the last 40.

Constantin

Agreed...

... on the other hand, I look at systems like the Marathon genset and start to wonder if it couldn't be used creatively to run the compressor on a GSHP, instead of generating a lot of power. We all have tons of heating/cooling potential below our feet... sometimes though, it's too hard to get to (as when you're sitting on bedrock).

I still happen to think that a large solar array makes sense for DHW production (particularly for pools). Boston doesn't have that much sun either, but perhaps the Vitosol tubes on my roof will give Ms. Vitola the summer off, while adding a fraction during the winter time.

Glen

correct -

but it is my intention to offer an alternative discussion based on other fuel utilization models. It was not my intent to embellish. And - as you are probably right that environmental laws are essentially emasculated on both sides of the 49th - it will be the consumer that drives any sort of "correction". I work with a number of clients that are off grid - what they know about solar, wind and energy conservation makes my head spin. Yet - they have ample hot water, are warm, happy and healthy. They still need their SUV in winter - but have made major strides in other areas.

Constantin

Yup

At the end of the day, it isn't that expensive to have 2x8 walls on 24" centers. Fill them with an inexpensive, infiltration-resistant insulator like dense-pack cellulose and you have R-30 walls. Combine it with triple-pane windows and a sensitivity re: which way the house is turned, size of windows, etc. and you have little to no heat gain/loss via the walls.

Insulate the foundation on the outside with 2-4" of XPS, put 12" or more of insulation into the attic, combine it with an efficient heating system and an ERV like the stirling ERV that Jerry pointed out to me, and you have a recipe for comfort. In fact, your heat gain and loss may be so low that you could use the ERV ducts for the cooling load.

At the end of the day, any house construction has to be looked at holistically. The additional expense in insulating the walls is offset by the smaller AC and heating system that you can install as a result. The energy savings at the end are further icing on the cake.

I was limited by historic considerations WRT the house we will be living in. Hence, the Harvey tru-channel storms with the historic glass on the other side. Ditto for Corbond in the 4" old wall sections, vs. 6" of icynene in the new wall sections. Etc.

These steps have allowed me to reduce the size of the heating and cooling system considerably. The old furnace was a 6' cubed, 200kBTU Williamson monster which didn't heat the house well, judging from all the electric heaters we spotted on the third floor on our first walk-through. Our new heat loss is expected to be less than ½ of the older, 20% smaller house, the max. heat gain in the summer will be met by 6 tons of cooling capacity.

People that plan to live off-grid become much more aware of these issues because they don't have easy access to cheap utilities. In many cases, it pays to go off-grid due to the very high charges that the utility levies for poles and somesuch. Then the issue simply becomes one of how the power will be generated locally. This is where integrated gensets like the Marathon engine may come into their own.

Oh, and don't overlook passive means of reducing solar gain in the summer, like building arbors and planting wisteria, etc. to grow on it. During the winter, you get the heat gain from the sun, during the summer, the plant takes it up for you.

S Ebels

Contrast

As we sit here discussing heating systems that last for decades my memory scrolled up an article that I read a couple years ago. It was in one of the monthly mags that deal mainly with the forced air side of things. This article dealt with life expectancy of new condensing F/A equipment and it stated that industry wide you could expect an avg of 11 years before your furnace is junk. This was a survey of all mfgr's from Goodman and Janitrol to Carrier and American Standard/Trane.

Contrast that with cast iron systems that go for 30-40 or more years and condensers that are 10-20-who knows how long in the case of some of the better ones.

The difference in expected life of hydronic equipment and F/A equipment is striking.

On another note, how many here think that the heating systems and addons (CHP, fuel cells, etc.) of the future will more easily integrate with a hydronic based system as opposed to a conventional F/A ?

Rookie

Plasma TV

Great reply Joe. The homeowner has a 4 thousand dollar plasma TV with a thousand dollar surround sound, whats in his basement 1960 Burnham Jubilee !!!

Joe Furfaro

Vitosal Tubes

Hi Constantin,

Sorry to diverge here, but I am in the staring stage of a heating retrofit for my home. Going with the Vitoden boiler.
I have always been a fan of solar energy and my contractor has recommended the Vitosal tubes.(for hot water and some heating load)
I live in Toronto(very similiar to your weather conditions)
I know the cost- effect etc. does not work out but I still would like to proceed.
I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you have.
Thanks

Steve McCarthy_2

The question at the beginning

So, Does anyone have any experiences with Munchkins that needed to be replaced because the heat exchanger failed?? Do Munchkins ever get sooted up because of gas valve malfunctions or fuel btu variations?? Are there any ten year old Munchkins in the field??

Paul Pollets

2 years!!

The Munchkin has only been in the marketplace for a little over 2 years. That's a very short time in the world of heating appliances.

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Steve Ebels_2

The oldest one I have is

Midway through its third winter. We have had one shutdown issue with it. The condensate backed up causing the burner chamber to flood. This ruined the front and rear refractory (fibre) and we had to replace that. The whole HX was removed, thoroughly cleaned and put back into service. All flue gases were within tolerances and to date we have had no more problems with it. We remodeled the condensate drain by moving the trap portion of it outside the case of the boiler so it can be easily serviced. This would be a notable improvement that the factory should investigate.