Customers to try to negotiate prices

Uni R

Honest Opinion

As a homeowner I think that the installation of your old boiler looked more professional.


Transitioning to copper on the supply and return sides looks like a shortcut and a waste of propress fittings. Your system circ is on the return, before the air eliminator that is on the supply side. The circ should be be set up to pump away from the B&G air eliminator. How do you shut off your water feed?


I would also prefer to see a thermostatic mixing valve on the indirect. That PRV on the indirect facing the wall doesn't help my impression. It should have been piped so that hot water exits close to the floor instead of being face height.


It is a nice looking boiler.

Jamie_6

Das

I am not going to "Slam" your install by any means! I will give you some constructive criticism though. (Much like I did on my web site).

All and all it is not a bad looking install; actually it is very clean work. But, I do not think you got the BMW that you thought you did. Yes, you got a Buderus (which is a good boiler) but that is all you got and that is all you paid for. I am sure the installer made good money on the job. He has to or why would he be in business.

Where are the bells and whistles associated with Buderus (much like a BMW)? The system is not pumped forward, there is no isolation method on the indirect circulator, and most importantly these days there is no system or boiler bypass. I know Buderus says you don't need one but they do recommend one.

Just proving the point, You Get What You Pay For & Usually Less!


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Paul Mitchell_2

Price is the price..Cash is cash

> Recently, I was sent on a call for a customer

> with a leaking water heater. The boss told me to

> stop at a supply house first to get the heater,

> even though there was no guarantee the customer

> wanted us to do the job. My boss also told me as

> I left the shop, "Do whatever you can to sell the

> job, but get at least $675." So I got a

> 40-gallon gas water heater, then show up at the

> customer's house (a 3-family) and see a huge

> puddle of water around the owner's water heater.

> I told him it would be $725 to replace it. The

> homeowner says, "Can you do any better than that

> price?" He asked how much the water heater cost,

> what we charge per hour for labor, etc. I said

> that we charge a flat rate to replace a water

> heater. I said I would have to call my boss to

> see if he would agree to lower the price. I

> called my boss, who said install it for $650 (I

> thought to myself, you said to get at least

> $675.) I go back to the homeowner and told him

> my boss will do it for $650. The homeowner

> hesitated, then said, "You can do it for

> $600." I wasn't sure I heard him correctly, so I

> said, "You'll do it for $650?" Sure enough, he

> had said $600. So I called my boss again, and he

> said he'd do it for $600 if the customer paid

> cash. I relayed that to the customer, who said

> he would have to pay with a check. I told that

> to my boss, who I had kept on the phone, and he

> said, "Just do it, you're already there." Now,

> as an employee, I had to follow the boss'

> instructions, but I can tell you, if I was

> self-employed, I would have told this customer to

> go pound sand. I might have given him a small

> discount ($25) in exchange for not taking the old

> heater away, but otherwise, my price is take it

> or leave it. I hate it when people try to

> negotiate the price of a plumbing/heating job

> (and the ones that do this are never poor or hard

> up, in my experience, just cheap). Plus, they

> have a lot of gall. I would never think of

> taking my truck to the dealer for a repair and

> asking them, "Gee, that price sounds kinda high.

> Can you do any better than that?" I though $675

> was very reasonable for a water heater. Maybe my

> pride has a lot to do with why I would refuse to

> haggle over price. But I think there's another

> reason it's a bad idea in the plumbing/heating

> service business. If you do drop your price, it

> tends to reinforce the customer's opinion that

> your price was artificially high to begin with

> (even more so if you lower your price TWICE, like

> my boss did. I can't believe he did that.) For

> those of you who are self-employed or own a

> company, how do you respond when you quote a

> prospective customer a price for a repair or

> install job, and they try to get you to lower

> that price?

Paul Mitchell_2

Price is the price..Cash is cash

Happens all the time. We have to be explicit...Cash green dollars. My father in law told me to never reduce the price without taking something away. You go buy a car you expect the game. Not heating equipment. I will leave the old water heater and you can save 25.00...great answer. You will be amazed on how many people get when you say...Well we can reduce your efficiency rating...everything has a value. What does that say about your original price? That customer didnt go tell his friends what a great company you guys are...He told everyone how you guys wanted 800.00 for a water heater(they always raise the price at this point) and he talked you down to 600.00 or less depending on how elaborate the story gets. All I can see in that is....See I KNEW PLUMBERS WERE RIP OFFS!!!! The general public is crazy and most people in our business just add fuel to the fire.
Paul

STEVEN MARKS

Boiler install

The relief valve and backflow preventer are not piped to floor. Why the overhead 1 pipe oil line? My biggest problem is that you showed the contractor someone else's bid.

Jamie_6

There is also no low-water cut-off. (Which is required in my state)

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Rookie

Missing Parts

I know there are differing opinions, but I would have used a spirovent,no shut off valves on the back flow ,pressure reducing valve ,or expansion tank.A valve must be placed on the cold water feed to water heater(code).The t&p and backflow/prv have to be piped to the floor( code), no low water cut off very bad ( code), no mixing valve on indirect ( not code, but highly recommended by manufactor), oil line should be a two pipe(code), never never to be attached to electrical condiut (code).I do not see a flow check on the indirect feed from the boiler,that would not be recommended unless you want some very hot water.No drain on the low side of the return boiler piping.I'm still a little unsure how this boiler is feeding the oringinal piping was some sections remove?When we install boilers we try to make them service friendly, adding a few valves even though they are not critical to the function they are to the maintenace, try changing the backflow/prv on this set up, you will have to drain the entire system.Next time spring for the ecomatic control.

Web Designer

JavaScript

Ah, that would explain it. The original specs for the site were for the then current IE and Netscape
browsers @ 800 or 1024.

FireFox did not exist at design time and was therefore not part of the QA.

Achieving cross platform compatibility for the Mac OS was determined not to be cost efficient when the low
number of users was taken into account, as such it was left out of the budget.

Thanks for the feedback though.
Best regards.

Uni R

Netscape

Was there a particular version of Netscape you had for your spec? Firefox may not have existed then but it is a continuation of Netscape and is best recognized for strict adherence to all coding conventions. This was the first website where Firefox had issues in my experience. I uninstalled Navigator quite some time ago and use IE very reluctantly.

Constantin

Interesting Viewpoint

I'm surprised that your tools back then were too unsophisticated to achieve cross-platform or even cross-browser compatibility. There are plenty of sites out there with universal, compatible javascripts that can be copied at will.. see no further than this webreference, for example.

WRT web-sites, I happen to think that content is king. The pompetti site may have a neat rollover menu (for those that can use it) but the content is thin at best. More pictures, more text would go a long way towards convincing potential clients that pompetti has installed more than 3 heating/cooling systems.

Sick of your tude

...

...

Robert O'Connor_7

Isn't it amazing??

Hey! Sick of your tude. I belive you sir are a coward hiding and lurking with some hidden addenda. Take a hike!..Robert O'Connor/NJ

shorty

hot water heater install

what does a forty gallon hot water heater cost, and how long does it take to install one?

Dan_15

More pics of Buderus G215 install

OK guys, I appreciate your opinions, and I realize there are different ways of doing an installation. I attached some more pictures which show the all valves a little closer. I am certainly not the expert any of you are, but you can see there are indeed hot and cold cutoff valves (just could not see them on the other pics). There is a t&p on the boiler block (not sure what this does). If I wanted to isolate the system, couldnt I just shut the cutoff valves on both the supply and return? Yes, if I wanted to replace the expansion tank, I would have to drain the boiler, but not the whole system. I dont know why there is no bypass loop or why the circulators are on the return, but the design does not appear to be totally haphazard or lacking planning, and Im sure the installer had a very good reason for this design based on my overall system. It actually looks pretty efficient to me. As for the code issues, I dont know if these things are code issues in Mass.

tommyoil

Mr Kelleher

Where is two pipe oil system code? Just wondering.

MT

DAS

Very clean istall, but I agree with the other guys on this,the relief valves,backflow should have been piped to the floor. Thats standard stuff. you always should "pump away" less air in the system. Also I am very disapointed to see that you got rid of a bock water heater!!!!!!! That thing would have last forever! I know I know now you have unlimited hot water, but still. Hey tradesman out their, want a great way to get air out of a boiler that just won't come out and clean it at the same time? Thought so I will tell you my secret so I can help you guys save time time time. Ok ready for this one! Place a 1/4 cup of liquid soap into any port on the boiler like an air valve or something, than bring the boiler up to temp, let it clean your boiler than purge and wa la! the soap converts big air bubbles into tiny little bubbles and away they go!! Give it a try and tell um MT told ya !!!!!!!!!!peace

MT

DAS

Very clean istall, but I agree with the other guys on this,the relief valves,backflow should have been piped to the floor. Thats standard stuff. you always should "pump away" less air in the system. Also I am very disapointed to see that you got rid of a bock water heater!!!!!!! That thing would have last forever! I know I know now you have unlimited hot water, but still. Hey tradesman out their, want a great way to get air out of a boiler that just won't come out and clean it at the same time? Thought so I will tell you my secret so I can help you guys save time time time. Ok ready for this one! Place a 1/4 cup of liquid soap into any port on the boiler like an air valve or something, than bring the boiler up to temp, let it clean your boiler than purge and wa la! the soap converts big air bubbles into tiny little bubbles and away they go!! Give it a try and tell um MT told ya !!!!!!!!!!peace

Dan_15

Bock Water Heater

Funny you should talk about that Bock lasting forever....it actually broke and flooded my basement two weeks before my scheduled installation, and we had to scramble to push up the new Buderus. I was without water for 4 days in the meantime. Bock was installed in 1997 and only lasted 7 years.

I will ask the installer about piping relief valves and backflow to the floor.

Jamie_6

Das,

I hope you know see my point about competitive pricing. If I where bidding your job I am positive my price would have been way higher then your guys. But, you would have gotten a completely different install. Codes are codes and they are there for a reason and must be followed. I put many boilers in a year and I am sure the guys on this site could find stuff wrong with them. Although, that is why I hang out here and post, I live and learn. Making each job more code compliant, efficient, and service friendly. The knowledge derived from this site makes me way more marketable compared to my competition. Yielding a higher price along with a properly completed install.

I would erg you to keep hanging out here. Asking questions or even searching previously asked questions. It is an amazing world in here full of unimaginable knowledge. Maybe even suggest your installer check the site out. Good luck with your new system.

Jamie Pompetti

I have also attached a picture of a simple install like yours that we do. As you can see it is very "plan Jane". This system lacks a system bypass. Although, it is pumped forward with a Spirovent, has a low water cut-off, system components can be isolated easy (making service calls faster and cheaper), and it was sized properly. (According to its heat load)

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Mad Dog

Well, we can always discuss it privately

You know my email, and even where I work everyday. I'll keep the light on for ya..............Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Hee hee hee

So true, Paul. Mad Dog

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Daniel Silver

Competitive Pricing

I have learned a great deal from this board, no doubt. Dont get me wrong, I didnt exactly skimp on the boiler--I was willing to pay a pretty penny. I just wanted it to be rational pricing based on the market. If everyone else is quoting $7,000 for the same install, I dont think a quote for $12,000 is reasonable or justified, no matter how good you are or how many cutoff valves you install.

I will talk to my installer about piping to the ground, low water cutoff, pumping forward and bypass. I think the number of cutoff valves is mostly a matter of convenience and I am principally concerned about making the most out of the design features of this beautiful new boiler. If a bypass loop will increase efficiency then I like it. I will talk to him about it. But, I still think he did a good job and had a reason for the system design.

Rookie

Very Nice work

Jaime very nice work, clean and all that in a tight space a true craftsman.Nice job.How do you like those Taco circulators with the built in flowcheck?

Jamie_6

Thanks Rock!

We love the IFC pumps but tend to use more Grundfus 3 Speed IFCs now. I like the fact that the Grundfus IFC can be taked out and you can adjust your flow rate.

Jamie

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Dan_15

Not so Sure

Well, I realize there is more than one opinion about how to design a system, and I still have confidence in my installer and his design. Yes, the pressure valves should be piped to the floor and need to be fixed, not a problem. He felt that pumping forward was not an issue when he designed my system because the loop is so short, and to be honest with you, my air eliminator is working splendidly as is. I have not found any air in the system whatsoever. The Buderus G215 has an internal loop that mixes the return water for thermal shock proof, so a bypass loop is not necessary. One of the many benefits of G215 over the G115. In my state, low water cutoff is not necessary in residential installations. Overall, I think the sizing was proper, installation was clean, neat and efficient, and servicable. My installer is friendly and knowledgable and his competitive pricing worked to snag a high-end installation and more importantly a return customer and good reference. I think that you guys who stick to your guns blindly instead of helping to educate the customer and have an open mind about the market pricing, are just crotchety old boys.

tommyoil

When you ask

him to pipe the blow-offs, ask him to add a low water cut off and to get the oil lines off the e.m.t. It is my opinion that a low water cut-off is critical for safety sake. It means alot when you can sleep at night and not worry. Maybe there is one, in which case I apologize. I cant see one though. Good Luck!