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Customers to try to negotiate prices

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  • ed wallace
    ed wallace Member Posts: 1,613
    customers

    this is a letter i sent to a customer last year who was price shopping a replacement heat exchanger

    mr. john doe
    any st
    anytown
    ma 00000
    I am responding to your telephone call about the new heat exchanger for your oil warm air furnace, as you know I located a replacement part yesterday, and ordered it but then you called and wanted a price well i gave you a price of $1,000.00 for the heat exchanger that covered labor and shipping, then you wanted me to provide you with the heat exchanger and you would shop around for another price to have the heat exchanger installed well i do not work that way i either do the whole job or I do not do the job. you are not dickering with a used car salesman, you are not dickering in an open air market, I have certian expensise that must be paid I can not call up my suppliers and dicker with them for a lower price. what you need to do is find someone else who can help you. i will not be able to help you please loose my phone number
    thank you
  • Boston Boiler
    Boston Boiler Member Posts: 70


    Quote your price and stick with it. Not all, but most home owners know the lower price from the big box comes with lower qaulity and if that is what they choose let them and pick up the service calls down the road from the cheaper workmanship. Free estimates are a good practice but to quote a complete heat loss and boiler sizing is foolish.
    X amount of dollars for this system but if you want the calculations on paper it is with a hefty NON refundable down payment that gets credited to the job if I am the one that does it. No free heat loss and sizing for the low bidder.

    BB
  • Uni R
    Uni R Member Posts: 663
    What's your point?

    No... and your point is?
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    Guys, I think the comsumer's perspective is being missed here. I am a homeowner and recently installed a new Buderus G215 and indirect tank using a leading New England contractor. In my case, I negotiated the price, but only after "checking" the market by getting several other quotes from leading installers for the same equipment. I think its important to get a sense of the market to keep the contractor honest; and quite frankly, I liked the installer I chose because they were the most knowledgeable and came well-referred, but I made it clear that I wanted their price to be competitive. That guy who drove the price down on the spot was just trying to screw the contractor, and you should have asked for his other quotes, or given him reasons why your installation is better. I agree with you and I dont like that guy, but there is a difference between screwing the contractor, and a well-informed consumer trying to get a competitive price.
  • Jamie_6
    Jamie_6 Member Posts: 710


    I understand your viewpoint as a homeowner. Although, how can you determine what a fair market price is? You may have two very reputable contractors but I know they would both do the job differently! That's why each contractor has a different price.

    I also don't understand what you mean by keeping the contractor "honest"! Where do we determine honesty? The homeowners pocket? How about the contractors overhead?



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  • Rookie
    Rookie Member Posts: 175
    Diagnostic Fee

    A diagnostic fee just separates the price shoppers from the serious clients. The fee should be built in as overhead. The guy wanted to charge you a fee so what, he obviously is a very capable business man with plenty of work, he gave you a choice and a up front price, you declined and moved on, what's the big deal? He's a pro and your a shopper, the company you hired did all the work for the low price you wanted, but then when it was time to have some very basic operational ( cold start boiler) questions answered, your back here, why not ask the Cumberland Farm installers, not comfortable with the explanation?
    “Pay Peanuts you get Monkeys"
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    Well, I think the "market" is purely a fictional animal, and is determined by what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller for the product. Of course, the market only makes sense when comparing like products and services. In my case, I got quotes from three contractors to determine the market. Two were leading competitors, and one was a small local shop. I compared the exact same products down to the flow check valves. Of the two leading competitors, the one I wanted came in about $1000 higher, which was a red flag to me. I expect that similar installation competence and similar product, should have similar prices. I asked the expensive one if he could get his price more competitive and I even gave him the other guy's quote. He could not understand how the competitive quote could be so low, but he went to his boss and they made it right. In the end, I paid a little more than the competitive quote, but I liked my installer better, and I felt satisfied that I was getting a good installer at a reasonable price. He even threw in a long term maintenance contract at no cost. That is the market from a consumer's point of view. The small shop, by the way, was completely out to lunch with Buderus and offered me a Weil boiler for virtually the same price. Once again, the market weeded him out.

  • Murph'_5
    Murph'_5 Member Posts: 349
    The small shop, by the way, was completely out to lunch with ...

    Buderus and offered me a Weil boiler for virtually the same price. Once again, the market weeded him out.


    Could you explain this last sentence a little better for me. thnks



    Murph'

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  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    I guess I mean that he was pushing Weil hard because he had no experience with Buderus. He also did not know what an outdoor reset control was, or what a three-pass system was. Through my own research, I came to believe that Buderus was a better made product and would represent a better investment for my purposes if I felt comfortable with that price bracket. The small shop quoted me a Weil installation that was only a few hundred bucks short of a quote for Buderus from the leading installer. So far, I have not heard anybody tell me that Weil is as good as Buderus or better. Why pay the same thing for a buick as a BMW, when you can just get the BMW?
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    Entire Thread Eerilly Familiar to Dan's New Book \"Working\"

    Boss giving you "haggle room" on a job he hasn't seen really isn't the best way to do business. It sends a mixed message to you and only encourages customers to see what they can do regarding price.

    Water heater installation in my experience ranges from "dream" to "nightmare". Sight unseen such makes a GREAT case for flat-rate pricing with perhaps a modest reduction in the final bill for a true dream job.
  • Bill_39
    Bill_39 Member Posts: 69
    cumberland farms

    Why does the fact that they do work for cumberland farms and the city mean that they are good?
  • Rich W
    Rich W Member Posts: 175


    I agree- we'll tell you the price for free. The specs are gonna cost ya.
  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    awwwww forget it................................................

    Not worth it if you can't catch on. Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    Good for you Jamie

    Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    Exactly Dan

    Mad Dog

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  • tommyoil
    tommyoil Member Posts: 612
    Thank you Dan

    I was trying to rationalize that myself. I WAS going to stay out of this, but here we go. When Cumberland is going to pay the contractor much bigger bucks in the dead of winter to be there repairing their equipment because the union will shut the plant down without heat, where will that leave the little guy? I'll tell you...the yellow pages thats where. Am I alone in wondering who picks up material, goes to a jobsight, and THEN negotiates price? I may be living a sheltered life to some extent professionally but I cant say I have ever done that. It sounds a little bit on the "tacky" side (with all due respect here). I realize that sometimes work is at a premium, but why cheapen your professional image by playing lets make a deal with someone who couldnt give a damn about quality. Besides, my luck usually has it that those "bargain" jobs are the one that always go bad. I know I know I am not alone here in saying that I have walked out on many bargain hunters and will continue to do so. I have never found it to be worth straying from a proven routine in order to satisfy someones desire to get the cheapest game in town. AND, when this guy tells his friends and neighbors that he found someone who can be swayed by the pressure of negotiation, where will that leave you on the next job?? I'll take a guess by saying you'll be spending(wasting) time bargaining and time is money. I have always told the bargain hunter that QUALITY DOESN'T COST....IT PAYS!! Sorry for the rant and I really tried to bite my tongue here. Hope I didnt offend anyone as it wasn't my intention Ciao!
  • Uni R
    Uni R Member Posts: 663
    Please... let me recap.

    I made 2 points:


    1. Before doing work it should be clear what's in and what's out. I'm sure you would never quote someone a new boiler and then stick on their old burner when they were thinking that a new burner is part of the package. Do you disagree?


    2. It is natural for people to want to negotiate larger priced items but it is the vendor who decides whether or not they want to make deals. We negotiate real estate transactions and car purchases. Contractors shouldn't be surprised or offended when this happens. Instead they should be prepared. My point is not that customers should try and screw contractors it is that it is natural behaviour and should be expected and then it can be better dealt with. Do you disagree?


    In your original response you implied that I was foolish enough not to know what I am buying. You also inferred that I'm some kind of haggler who screws service people and they never come back. Mocking my handle was your added touch of making sure that I got the message that you had no respect for my opinion. Don't worry, your point seems very clear. It is pretty clear that you don't feel that homeowners add value to the discussions here and that was why you responded to my post the way you did. No big deal... some do.
  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    I agree on the first two points

    Its just the micromanaging approach that can be a little unnerving for a contractor coming in to work for you. You are dead wrong on homeowner's input - it is what makes this place special. I have great respect for many, many of the homeowners who contribute here. Some, I can't stand and I know the feeling is mutual. However, I do start to get sick of the "defenseless homeowner" card being played anytime one of us contractors holds their feet to the fire or firmly disagrees. I am sorry for "peeing" on your handle....sometimes I just get a little....shall we say ....MAD!!!!! That was bad dog. What does your handle it stand for anyway? Seroiusly? Once again. sorry for the teasing. Mad Doggie

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  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,340


    Also don't forget the 3 strike rule: When to fire your customers: When they always complaine about:
    Service
    Price
    or The way the job was done!!!!!
    YOUR OUT!!!!!
  • Uni R
    Uni R Member Posts: 663
    No problems...

    Thanks. Due to an overabundance of "rogues" online many years ago, I made it more "unique" and then abbreviated it. No big story. Offline I'm a Steve. I think there are a half dozen Steves here already.
  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    One of my many flaws is being a hothead

    Once again, I am sorry. Mad Dog

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  • Walt_4
    Walt_4 Member Posts: 31
    Fair Price

    I don't know if this point has been made. I only read about half of the thread.

    I am a homeowner. I don't mind paying a fair price for services and expertise. I'll pay more if the product is better. What I don't like is the feeling that one component of most, but not all, bids that I recieve is based on how much the tradesmen thinks I can afford.

    No one is going to convince me that some tradesmen don't up the price when they find out that I am a lawyer and they see that I live in a big house. I shouldn't pay 25% more because of the part of town that my house is in. I used to be in the trades so I know this happens.

    Given that this is part of how some tradesmen price a job I feel I have a right to talk to them about the price...and, god forbid, negotiate it if necessary.

    As a lawyer I will cut my rate for a big job, for a regular customer or, if when a the job is done, the client has a legitimate beef about how much value I added. That just seems fair and seems like good business to me.
  • Reynz_2
    Reynz_2 Member Posts: 98
    Selling

    First I need to tell you I'm a homeowner. It is irresponsible for anyone to go blindly into a purchase without the proper information on pricing and quality.

    I always try to get three to five quotes on any larger repair or replacement project. HVAC professionals, YOU have to sell your company and service. Why are you any different than anyone else standing in line to give me an HVAC quote. Tell me as a homeowner why I should choose you to sell, install and service my equipment. Don't just say you have references, come to the job and provide them when you quote a price.

    I have read a lot from you talking about the quality of service you provide. Well everyone will tell me the same thing when they give me a quote. Just to prove my point, how many professional here tell their prospective clients that they do poor work, but at a great price?

    Ok, here is the bottom line, I would hire just about any one of you to do work on my system after being with you for the past year reading and asking questions on the wall. Floyd, I'd let you do anything to repair my system, just send me the bill. I don't even need a price quote, Gary Wallace, same with you (but you need to calm down with the rantings, it does take away from your rich knowledge and professionalism).

    Now a prime example. I received five quotes, determined three appeared very professional, but ended up with one in particular I thought was the best. His prices were still a little higher than the rest, but rather than go with the lower of the three professionals, I called him and asked if he would do better with the price. I THINK I OWED IT TO HIM.

    This is still a planned project, but his professionalism sold his company to me. So come on you guys, waaa-waaa-waaa. You sound like my kids did when they were two months old. Many of you have great points about quality and service, but you other guys, maybe you are not selling your quality service as well as you should. Salesmanship!

    The customer who pushed the price down to $600 was an absolute idiot. They did no research, and was trying to put the company between a rock and a hardspot.

    DAS, an absolutely right on post from the homeowner’s perspective.

    Consumers are always told, Buyer beware….. Understand a customer is trying to get quality and good price. You guys are great, just a litte input.

    One more question. When Ken C. went to the house with the instructions from his boss to get at least $675 and he started out at $725, what exactly was he doing? I don’t mean to imply he was not being honest, but might his boss or Ken C. have been trying to take advantage of the situation? I don’t want to make anyone mad, I’m just trying to explain what DAS was saying about keeping the contractors honest. Ken C. I have sold items before and I’m not saying you were dishonest, I know how to sell. However most customers do not know that. Ken C, if one starts out at $725, you should not be insulted by a "Can you do better than that?"
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,883
    DAS

    Just so you are aware ... My cost for Buderus is Very close to the cost of Wiel-McLains.

    Your local shop just is'nt knowledgeable in Buderus.

    Scott

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  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    Sounds like Weil is pricing themselves out of the market, or Buderus is pricing themselves into it, take your pick. But it illustrates the point of this whole conversation, that all else being equal in a competitive marketplace smart consumers will shop for good quality product, competent installation and fair price. Products and tradesmen that cant remain competitive will lose.
  • Jamie_6
    Jamie_6 Member Posts: 710


    Maybe @ your house DAS! But then again the way it sounds I don't think I would be working in your house anyway!

    By the way, I would love to see some pictures of your job if you wouldn't mind? You can see pictures of our work @ www.PompettiHVAC.com

    Jamie

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  • eleft_4
    eleft_4 Member Posts: 509
    Hey Tommy,


    Great to see you here, hope you are doing well.

    I'm biting my tongue also, people who expect and don't appreciate.......well I guess they are just careless!
    Specially those who can charge the "same" time to several clients at a time! I guess there degree requires forfeiture of their conscience.

    Merry Christmas

    al
  • Uni R
    Uni R Member Posts: 663
    Jamie - Your website

    Not everyone uses MS Explorer. Did you contract this or do it inhouse?
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Second the call...

    Jamie, the Javascript controls or whatever is driving the menu is not the best choice if you want to reach everyone out there. I couldn't use it either. For the benefit of the Wallie community, here are some direct links to equipment installs at Pompetti:

    On the Heating Side there are: Radiant,
    Steam, Forced Air, and Hot Water jobs. I happen to like the radiant manifold pics a lot. Note: the steam and the hot water jobs show the same image, just the text is different. I'm not sure I'd associate a picture full of copper piping with a steam headline, but hey, it's your business.

    On the cooling side, there are: Conventional Cooling,
    High Efficiency Cooling, and High Velocity jobs to look at. All the pics seem to show the same high-velocity system... a bit thin, IMHO.

    The source code for the menu also shows that there are hot potable water jobs and some light commercial work to look at. However, I cannot be bothered to list out all the options there, simply ask your browser to show the source code and find the relevant .asp address URLs from there.
  • Web Designer
    Web Designer Member Posts: 2
    JavaScript

    Hey guys just curious, which (browser,version,OS)are you using when the javascript fails?

    Thanks
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    i have a reasonable approach....

    this is my bid , or this is my proposal,if the customer feelslike there is some other way to go fine..no Problem. however, if the idea is to start weedling me down then i give them another bid and or another proposal...this time for more. evidently they find something Wrong with me, and personally, consideration is what i used on the first go around...the second bid is to ease my conscience of having offered to do my very best in the first place,and being insulted to boot.
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388
    Pictures of Buderus G215 Installation

    Sure, here are some pics of my Buderus G215, and a pic of the original coal boiler we replaced. I think the installer did a great job....what do you think?
  • Robert O'Connor_7
    Robert O'Connor_7 Member Posts: 688
    NEW!!!! Hybonic word

    Weedling D' Weezbo: (HWEEDL)v. 1. try to persuade polar bear like wet head by flattery, cajolery within site of northern light, ect; coax with artificial seal meat. 2. obtain by coaxing, baiting for a free Tekmar control --vi 3. use flattery or cajolery when seeking better price after problem fixed. --whee'dler n. --whee'dling ly adv. NOT A RECOMMENDED ACTIVITY! good post!......Robert O'Connor/NJ
  • Bill_39
    Bill_39 Member Posts: 69
    If you said to me

    If you called me back to tell me the other guy was cheaper then I would have told you to use him. It wouldn't be the first time and it wouldn't be the last time
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    That just sounds like "sore loser" kind of talk. Im sure my opinion is unpopular on this board, but I dont understand why some tradesmen have this type of attidude about their services. I fully appreciate the terrific work you guys do, believe me, some of it is art. But cant a tradesman accept that someone else's work might be just as good, even though its cheaper? All else being equal, if the quality of work is similar, why wouldnt the consumer be entitled to insist on a good price? The market establishes the price, and the tradesman who stubbornly refuses to play is going to lose.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Here Ya Go

    Mac OS 10.3.6 running either Safari 1.2.4 or IE 5.2.3 or whatever the last version of IE was on the Mac. Javascript is version 1.4.2 update 2.

    Considering that I have none of these issues on other sites that try to dress up their menus with rollovers, I'd like to think that the Javascript used on the Pompetti web site is deficient. The overflowing  's are a dead giveaway that this site was not designed by hand.

    The meta tag for the generator probably explains why this may work for MS-OS machines and nothing else. Presumably, MS is still coding their Java to be different from that of the rest of the world.

    Anyway, what I'd really like to see is someone come up with an elegant way to make roll-overs work in CSS on all browsers. However, that would probably require MS to write a standards-compliant web browser, so I might as well take a ticket to watch hell freezing over.
  • Bill_39
    Bill_39 Member Posts: 69
    nothing to to with

    being a sore loser. The only way I would be a "loser" is if I took the job because someone else was goingt to do it cheaper. I know what I can do the job for or want to do the job for and the price is the price. I have more than too much work as it is why would I work for less than I have to.
  • Daniel Silver
    Daniel Silver Member Posts: 11


    Well you are lucky to have so much work, and its undoubtedly because you are a competent tradesman. To be honest with you, I would have gone with my installer even if he could not get as close to the competition as he did, because he was well recommended to me and I found him most knowledgable. I am willing to pay a premium for good service. But I think your strategy is a bad way to grow a business and certainly not fruitful in less plentiful times. As a consumer I really want to know that the price is competitive and rational (for the same quality of service mind you). Its an important factor in getting the contract and building good references. I was really pleased with my installer and have recommended him to others.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    next time its 40 below and the truck is broken down on the

    roadside start calling tow truck companies and onsite jobbers and try that song out on them ...justsee how fast any of them JUMP at the opportunity to help you. Well i just want to know how much its going to cost before you get here...and when you find someone who sounds like the right workman tellHim You can get get it done cheaper someplace else...and to come down off his high horse and bring the price down to what you feel is reasonable....most likely you will freeze to death.
  • Uni R
    Uni R Member Posts: 663
    Mozilla Firefox - n/m

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