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Fair Price
Comments
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Walt would have been better off saying he hated PEX!!!!!!!!
Anyone in a profession that charges for even the simplest phone conversation while they are working for you maybe has a reason to feel a little parinoid when they are on the other end of the bill. Doesn't make it true but sometimes people think others think the same as they would in a similar situation.
BB0 -
Grouped Reply
There are a lot of good points made above. Thanks to the guys who suggested that the personal attacks stop.
One guys asked what I thought a "fair price" was and how I determined that. Its a good question. I will say that I think about how many guys will do the work, how much off site prep time, how much on site time, materials, how far they have to travel, that sort of stuff. Because I've been around the trades all of my life I know that a company is paying workers comp, insurance and upkeep on trucks, rent or mortgage on an office, secretary, etc. I certainly don't have the time or inclination to sit down with someone's accountant and nose my way deep into thier cost structure...that's none of my business. But, if i get three bids and one is $15,000 one is $8,000 and one is $6,000 and I know and like the work of the guy who gave me the $15,000 bid, I am inclinded to ask him how he got to that number.
I too was surprised that the mason told me what he charged per hour for his laborers. Maybe he had a sense that I wouldn't fall off of my chair at the number. the number made sense to me.
In this case the deal that we struck was slighly different than T&M. It was more like Materials, a flat fee in addition and labor (including what he considered to be his overhead for these employees). So, if the job ran over what I thought is should, he still would have been paid according to our agreement.
One of you mentioned the types of things that you do to protect a customers home. All of that would be of value to me and I would be willing to pay more for those types of services. Maybe some bids that I've recieved included a lot of services that were not expained to me. Knowing what I am buying is important to me. Some things that I will pay a premium for would seem stupid to other people. Would I pay extra for Hot Rod's primary loop with the nice formed curves that is also the stand for a boiler....yup.
Someone who shows up at my house, listens to what I am trying to do, applies their expertise, sends me a written estimate in a reasonable amount of time and tells me, in reasonable detail, what thier price includes and why is always going to get serious consideration from me, even if they don't get the job. Someone who shows up, who I have to chase, who after 3 calls gives me a bid on the phone that is 25% higher than everyone else is going to get a polite "no thanks." How often does this latter case happen, almost every time we try to get bids for something.
Finally, I don't mind the lawyer jokes. We acutally have "client jokes", but I am not allowed to share them wiht you unless you pass the bar exam.0 -
> There are a lot of good points made above.
> Thanks to the guys who suggested that the
> personal attacks stop.
>
> One guys asked what I
> thought a "fair price" was and how I determined
> that. Its a good question. I will say that I
> think about how many guys will do the work, how
> much off site prep time, how much on site time,
> materials, how far they have to travel, that sort
> of stuff. Because I've been around the trades
> all of my life I know that a company is paying
> workers comp, insurance and upkeep on trucks,
> rent or mortgage on an office, secretary, etc. I
> certainly don't have the time or inclination to
> sit down with someone's accountant and nose my
> way deep into thier cost structure...that's none
> of my business. But, if i get three bids and one
> is $15,000 one is $8,000 and one is $6,000 and I
> know and like the work of the guy who gave me the
> $15,000 bid, I am inclinded to ask him how he got
> to that number.
>
> I too was surprised that the
> mason told me what he charged per hour for his
> laborers. Maybe he had a sense that I wouldn't
> fall off of my chair at the number. the number
> made sense to me.
>
> In this case the deal that
> we struck was slighly different than T&M. It was
> more like Materials, a flat fee in addition and
> labor (including what he considered to be his
> overhead for these employees). So, if the job
> ran over what I thought is should, he still would
> have been paid according to our agreement.
>
> One
> of you mentioned the types of things that you do
> to protect a customers home. All of that would
> be of value to me and I would be willing to pay
> more for those types of services. Maybe some
> bids that I've recieved included a lot of
> services that were not expained to me. Knowing
> what I am buying is important to me. Some things
> that I will pay a premium for would seem stupid
> to other people. Would I pay extra for Hot Rod's
> primary loop with the nice formed curves that is
> also the stand for a boiler....yup.
>
> Someone
> who shows up at my house, listens to what I am
> trying to do, applies their expertise, sends me a
> written estimate in a reasonable amount of time
> and tells me, in reasonable detail, what thier
> price includes and why is always going to get
> serious consideration from me, even if they don't
> get the job. Someone who shows up, who I have to
> chase, who after 3 calls gives me a bid on the
> phone that is 25% higher than everyone else is
> going to get a polite "no thanks." How often
> does this latter case happen, almost every time
> we try to get bids for something.
>
> Finally, I
> don't mind the lawyer jokes. We acutally have
> "client jokes", but I am not allowed to share
> them wiht you unless you pass the bar exam.
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My Lawyer Joke
A Rabbi, a Hindu and a Lawyer are in a car that breaks down in front of a farm house. The farmer says you can sleep here but I only have two extra beds, one of you will have to sleep in the barn.
The Rabbi says " I am a humble man, I will sleep in the barn. " Five minutes later there is a knock at the door. The Rabbi comes in and says " There's a pig in the barn, I am not comfortable ".
The Hindu says " I am a humble man I will sleep in the barn ". Five minutes later there is a knock at the door. The Hindu enters and says " There's a cow in the barn. I can not sleep out there, I am not comfortable ".
The lawyer says " No problem, I will sleep in the barn ". Five minutes later there is a knock at the door.
It's the cow and the pig.
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Client Joke
Two lawyers from a firm go to lunch. One is a 75 yrd old retired partner, one is a 50 yr old current partner.
Q: Who pays for lunch?
A: The clients.0 -
Lawyer Joke
To avoid a lawsuit, I must say that I copied this joke from www.handelonthelaw.com
Bill Handel is my favorite lawyer.
A businessman and a lawyer were fishing in the Caribbean. Attempting to strike up a conversation, the lawyer said, "I'm here because my house burned down and everything I owned was destroyed in the fire. My insurance paid for everything."
"What a coincidence," said the businessman. "I'm here because my house and all of my belongings were destroyed by a flood. Fortunately, my insurance company paid for everything too."
Looking a little confused, the lawyer asked, "How do you start a flood?"
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Hi Walt.
I think you have every right to question pricing as long as you do it equally.
In your example you list two contractors within 2k of each other, and one contractor more than the others combined. Now the understandable first reaction is to ask the high bidder why the number is so high. But shouldn't you also ask the other guys why their numbers are where they are as well? Is it not possible that their numbers are too low?
I had a customer call me after I had quoted a job for him to tell me that he had gotten two more bids. That is 100% OK by me. He called to tell me that I was $1000 higher than the next lowest bidder. He then went on to tell me that he REALLY wanted me to do the work because my presentation was better than the other guys, I appeared more confdident than the other guys, and my technical knowledge of his system was better than the other guys, and he liked me.
I was silent for a moment and then said, "You just listed off all of the reasons why I am worth $1000 more than the other guys." We got the job.
I have no concern what a person does for a living and I do not alter pricing accordingly. And just as it is none of my business how much my customers make, it is none of their business what I make.
As someone else stated here, I will not lower my price without taking something back. I am not on a fishing trip trying to see how high I can get the price, I know what it costs me to do what I do.
Some think that as long as the same or comparable equipment is being used, all things are equal. But a boiler is nothing more than a stupid piece of metal with the fires of hell under it, and if the person that installs or services it is no smarter than the metal it's made from, that is how well it will work.
Another customer once asked me how we could get the price down yet STILL keep all the goodies he wanted. I said,"Well I was going to send our top installer there and I pay him $xx/hr, but I can't do that for less than what I have quoted. We do have a new guy that has been with us for three weeks and has only missed work four times, I pay him $x/hr. I think we could manage it with him installing the boiler." He wanted the top guy.
Sounds like you worked out an amicable solution with your contractor. If everyone is happy, great.
Happy Holidays!
Mark H
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I've never had a problem with someone under bidding me, for only he or she know's the real value of there product or service, just don't call me back to clean up there mess!0 -
Walt,
I believe in capitalism and free enterprise. I believe that belief should not be limited to just pricing but the entire fabric of my business.
As an extreme example, I believe my employees are a commodity. I believe I should only pay them what they are worth and what they deserve based on merit - not time of service or some untenable union mentality driven basis.
I believe it is your responsibility to screen potential contractors based on past performance, referals and what they put into the four corners of the proposal/contract you agree to. I do not believe "negotiating" prices to be a viable nor acceptable practice. Contractors should give their "best" price the first time - every time.
It is your responsibility to weed out the jerks in this biz from the good guys. I wrote an article that reflects this idea. If you care to, follow this link:
http://www.masterplumbers.com/plumbviews/2004/good_contractors.asp
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TWO !
One to suck all the hot air out and get a third degree lip and mouth burn once the live steam gets him;
And the second to sue the boiler manufacturer for failing to consider the stupidity of the lawyers who might attempt to suck on the vent.
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pure capitalism would demand you charge what the market would bear, actually, not your "best" price. capitalizing, as it were, on opportunity as it arises.
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Maybe that's why my approach is better
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Walt
Sounds like your profession (well at least what you have to deal with in your profession) might be giving you a view of your fellow man that is a bit too dim.
When I was a restoration/renovation contractor the house and neighborhood certainly influenced my price--but not in the way you're thinking. I would carefully assess both the existing materials and workmanship and estimates would be based on doing work with at least comparable quality--even if it involved archaic building methods.
A significant job in natural stone isn't exactly what I consider "middle class". Around here at least, it's only for the highest end jobs. (No I'm not a stone mason but have extreme respect for that trade.) I've also learned that "higher end" generally means "higher expectation" from the customer.
But since stone is a natural product, the following is likely a fair comparison. When making natural wood cabinetry, I can spend an extraordinary amount of time matching grain and ensuring that every single piece is cut from the most suited stock in the pile and matched nicely to its neighbors and the piece as a whole. It really doesn't add to material cost as I'm always frugal with my wood, but it does add considerably to the time required to select and cut.
Similary I can be absurdely picky when it comes to final fit and finish. Flaws that most will never notice are like pins in voodoo dolls to me. Trying not to let those pins hurt too bad was the hardest part for me and it took me quite a while to not be so picky on jobs that gave less $$ in compensation.
This is not to say that there are some people who see big house, fancy neighborhood and think, "I can charge like mad and just give normal work." I do though doubt that your mason was such a person--after all, you knew his work and were pleased. True craftsmanship is NOT dead by any means, but it has NEVER been inexpensive compared to work of average quality.
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called back to clean up the mess
Why not? If you don't fix it right, who will. Just charge accordingly and hope the customer learned from his experience. Our trade is a problem solving trade. Take pride in your work and deliver it where needed.
Pat0 -
Valid arguement
Hey guy's, I don't think Walt is out to bash anyone and I don't think all lawyers should be cast in the same light as Geoffrey Feiger (Kevorkian fame). Go easy on the guy. One of my best customers is a lawyer.
A very astute man once said "A lawyers time is his stock and trade". (Abraham Lincoln) When it comes down to it, the same is true for us as contractors. We are valued/paid for our knowledge and time which is the same for nearly any vocation. There are guys that I would hire for $110 an hour to fix my heating system and there are guys (a lot of 'em) whom I wouldn't give the time of day.
As far a negotiating prices, that's up to the individual contractor. It shouldn't cause anyone any stress. I mean, If you have your cost of operation nailed down and your overhead isn't obscene, what's to negotiate anyway. Your cost of doing business is what it is and if you're good at what you do you should charge accordingly. There are a LOT of guys around here that still think $30/hour is big money. They usually last for a year or two and move on to somewhere else to escape creditors and/or irate customers. We are in the $90 range and are far above the average for these parts. We are also booked well into March right now. A lot of the $30 guys are twiddling their thumbs and waiting for the phone to ring according to the counter people at the local supply house.
How's that add up for ya?0 -
Scott...
The only negotiating I'd do would be based on a price reduction by me yanking product or services out of the contract. If his wanting a 5% discount is going to make or break the deal, I'd ask him for the names of 5 people who would be interested in my service. Nothing's free. I give, he takes, I take back something of value. EVERYONE wants to get a "good deal". It's human nature.
"What's in it for me?"
It's just good business practices. I don't markup my product or services with the intent of giving a "discount", although that IS a regular business practice in the retail world, but if I can get some more work from a qualified list of solid referrals for a 5% discount, and the consumer goes away feeling like they've gotten "a good deal", we BOTH win.
As for disclosing my costs of doing business, it's no more their business than it's my business to know what THEIR cost of doing business is. I have to assume they're being fair, and they have to assume that I'm being fair. It's the trust between the two parties that seals the deal.
No lawyer jokes from me, I work for too many of them.
My Doctor (new one) today asked me what I did for a living, and I explained to him that I was a master plumber working in the hydronics field. He said, "Surely you've heard the joke about payday being Friday and poop not running up hill..." TO wit I replied, "Pay days fall on the first and the 15th, and that's NEVER Friday, and I've got pumps that will pump the poop up any hill you've got mister" He got a good laugh, said he'd probably use it in his next speaking engagement:-)
Lawyers are a necessary evil, if you ask me, but so am I:-)
ME0 -
Lawyer Issue
Thanks for all of the level headed thoughts.
I hope this won't sound too dramatic, but I went to a Christmas Party last night with a bunch of lawyer friends and one of the things that we ended up talking about was a woman lawyer I was friends with who, dispite death threats, was dogged in her representation of some unpopular people who she thought were innocent. For her efforts she was killed by a car bomb. Her kids heard it go off. Why don't some of you guys spring a bit of your "lawyers are dirt bags" on them or her husband.
We also talked about another lawyer friend of mine, CPT Don Burgess, who walked away from a Blackhawk crash a week ago today. Picture of the wreckage below. He has a swollen nose and two black eyes but is otherwise O.K. He's a lawyer. So is his wife. So some of you guys would not answer a no heat call from his wife because she's a laywer.
I feel pretty good about being a lawyer and don't have much regard for people who aren't thoughtful enought to consider people on thier merits.
To the rest of you, thanks as always for the insights and a Merry Christmas.0 -
Terrible thing to start in on people then play brinkmanship
poorly ,such as you have been elucidating.0 -
Lawyer's reputations
Walt,
I'm sorry you felt like a lightning rod for lots of anti-lawyer sentiment. I am very sad to hear about the friend killed in the car bomb. It's something that so far outside my "normal world" that it's hard to even imagine. I have a cousin who is a judge, and I have the world of respect for her.
What makes it hard for me is to separate the lawyer from the person who they represent. I know this isn't all of it, but when a known criminal or tobacco lawyer works in court to do everything they can to prevent justice, it's hard to combine that with your friend who risked and gave her life for the protection of others.
Folks, if Walt has said he was a doctor or a businessman, would the same comments have been made? We are asking to be treated fairly and for people to step beyond their stereotypes of plumbers, but as a group we did a really bad job of that here. We failed to live up to the level of our host or his site today! The ball is in our court.
jerry
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This may be a silly question. How did they find-out that you were a lawyer .? Maybe you could avoid problems by not flaunting it ?0 -
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Read it
Still pondering.....0 -
Read it
Still pondering.....0 -
All I can say is ...
..."holy Cow". That system is worth more than my house.0 -
Walt, an HVAC price to ponder
Mine, too.
I'm sure there's an explanation. Maybe some of those custom curved Hod Rod pipes you were talking about :-). The contractor sometimes posts here. But extrapolating from that price, I should have paid twice as much for my boiler and a/c than I actually did for my 4000 square foot home.0 -
Lawyers and HVAC
Im a lawyer and I get along just fine with my HVAC contractor. But I went through a couple others until I found one I liked and trusted. Ive also come across a few contractors who seem to go through clients until they find one they like and trust. Its got nothing to do with being a lawyer or a tradesman. Some people just have dynamic relationships, and others just dont work at all. Its how people are.0 -
We run an open book company
any customer or employee is welcome to come by our office and we gladly show them where every expense that went into the bill or hourly rate comes from.
We have nothing to hide, and I suspect many customers would wonder why we spend so many hours and assume so much liability for such a low wage
We have only had one property managment company actually come to the office and take us up on that offer. He went back to his office and raised his rates!
Still a big customer of my former company, by the way. In fact their largest customer with over 130 properties to maintain.
The avarage consumer has little idea of what it takes to run a small business these days. An astute business owner crunches these numbers on a weekly basis.
Case in point with the fuel costs this year compared to last. How many here can put an exact number on the way that changes you billiable hour charges, and how you covered this increase.
The freight companies sure did catch on quickly with a fuel surcharge! Wonder if it will get rolled back if fuel prices drop???
hot rod
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RE: We run an open book company
Hot Rod, my post was not meant as a swipe at you or any of the other professionals that post here, rather, it was meant to suggest that if the work on that 18,000 square foot house was as "custom" as the pictures of those curved copper pipes you posted a while back, then maybe the price wasn't as outlandish as it might first seem.
There was a lot of automated equipment and new technology in the house I linked to. And while I might have paid more attention to energy efficiency and installed lower tech thermostats and a solar heater for the pool instead of fossile-fuel-gobbling-boilers, the owners apparently were satisfied.0
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