Don't specify \"brand\"??????

Mark Hunt

Let's say you sell a job that specifically states that you will install Wirsbo Quik-Trak. Then your boss sees the quote and decides that Quik-Trak is "too expensive" and forbids you from buying that material. He decides to get some cheap plywood and have a couple of minimum wage guys rout the plywood.

Then the buyer shows up, after it's all in and asks, "Where's our Quik-Trak?"

What would you do?

Would you tell the buyer that there is no difference between what you promised and what was delivered?

Would you tell the buyer to call your boss?

Or would you realize that your boss was an ignorant moron and find another job?

Real story here folks.

I'd like to hear what advice you might offer to the poor salesman that had to face this dilemma.

Mark H

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Bill Nye_2

I would

walk. And tell the customer to call my ex boss or the BBB.

Mark Hunt

Mr.Nye (NTSG)


You are wise beyond youe years.

Let's see what the rest of "The Wall" says.

I'm with you though!

Mark H

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hr

Reminds me of

closing the barn door after the cows have gotten out!

Sounds like a breakdown of communication. Bummer! The customer is always right, they should get what they paid for, or have asked about a subsitution.

Why do you ask

hot rod

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Kal Row

better to be homless and pan-handle than be dishonest

where is the dilemma - he should have been gone from a boss like that at the get go, my own son-in law left and started his own kitchen/bath remodel business on a similar situation where his old boss was screwing the kitchen dealer booking the jobs and the customers - the kitchen dealers and workers switched to my son-in law forthwith

in this siuation it's ethical to leave and take the business with you

kevin coppinger_4

if the contract said...

QT then QT should have been installed...period. That being said I had a crafty customer who asked about QT and then went and made his own out of 1/2" plywood and sheet alumimnum>>>looks great and so far works well...his risk. I did the boiler and hook up. Did he do the job quote before the quote of material? Better to come clean ASAP...kpc

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lchmb

went there

for a job, would leave their for another job. I would have passed the number of the boss on to the homeowner and gone job hunting!! If I can't look at myself in the mirror I won't do it..:)

Ken_8

Hot Rod's got a point;

The time for posturing and taking the "higher road" ended the moment you helped install what you knew was the inappropriate radiant sub-flooring.

You are guilty of passive aggression of the first order.

Me thinks it terribly hypochritical, at this point, to play the role of some "ethical yeoman," now **** is about to hit the fan.

How convenient for your guilt to suddenly blossom, now that the deed is done.

You think we should blame your boss? Are you suggesting he's never bent the rules before? I are you also suggesting YOU never bent them either? Not ever?

The time to make a stand was when the router came out of the case lad; not now.

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Mark Hunt

HR


The salesman I speak of is a friend. He visits here on occaision.

He tried it on his own for a while. Didn't work out.

He has a very good knowledge base. He puts VALUE on QUALITY. Unfortunately, he now works for a company that specializes in ignorance.

The customer was never offered an alternative. The boss just said "No" to the Quik-Trak. He also told this salesman NEVER to sell Brand Name.

The fact is, now the company has to rip up the flooring and install the proposed system. The salesman will get 0 commission. Nothing! The customer knew the difference and called them on it.

The "boss" my friend went to work for is absolutely "bottom of the barrel". I met the guy(boss) when we were both owned by "Service Experts". He is the poster child for "HACK".

He now forbids any mention of brand when a job is quoted.

Sounds like a peach eh'?

Mark H



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Floyd_7

Just very curious?????

I thought you WERE the boss?????
Really got me wondering here....

Mark Hunt

WHOA KEN!!!!!!!


I guess I need to expound.

First, this "friend" Ain't me! He really is a friend!

He sold the job and the boss changed it without him knowing. Bosses can do that.

Now he has to explain the difference. And he can't.

If you want, I'll post the name of the company.

(Secretly, I'd love to)

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

STOP IT FLOYD!!!!!


This ain't me!!!!

One more outburst from you and I'll have Murph on you!!!!!!!

Serious story and it is NOT me. Comfortable Home Technologies is doing fine, thanks for asking!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

My sentiments exactly!


Thanks for that answer!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

100% correct!!!!!!!!


As I said, my friend did not find out until he got the call asking "Where is the QT?"

Do what you say!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

I agree Kal


but my friend already tried it on his own. Didn't work out.

He knows systems, his new boss doesn't.

Mark H

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Bill Nye_2

Cheap jobs

Cheap jobs are a dime a dozen, Your good name and reputation have to last a life time.

Mark Hunt

You got it Bill!


As usual!

Next time we meet, the drinks are on you.


Mark H

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Robert O'Connor_7

Mark...

I belive your friend and his boss share the blame. Your friend sold the job, then ordered material he knew wasn't in the contract. The cows left the barn and were slammin' shots at the local gin mill. Having said this, making a legal determination would certainly have your friend holding the bag. Ultimately the company has full responsibility for making this right, but leaves your friend open for a suit of his own (from the boss). Although unfortunate, I belive this happens more frequently than known. Your friend should never have ordered the material, he was a partner to the crime...Robert O'Connor/NJ

Floyd_7

Sick Murph on me??????

I'm a shaaaaaaken' now!!!!!!!!!
BTW... since Dan took away Murph's fun... puttin' all those animations on his posts.....he ain't havin' much to do here any more.....that and his favorite college proff. that loved to harrase him......
Tell him he don't come here no more... it's safe to show up again!!!

Btw... sounds like there might be a good salesman looking for a job soon....is he close enough for you to hire????

Floyd

Mark Hunt

Yah. He's close enough


for me.

But what about a company changing the contract AFTER you signed it?

That's my point here.

What buyer would like spending the money on a Rolls, and end up with a Yugo?

I REALLY wish I could mention the company's name here!

Alas, I cannot.


Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Robert


My friend ordered the material he sold. The boss said "NO".

The boss made the decision to try to fabricate his own Quik-Trak.

The company will have to eat this one as the Architect knew the difference.

My friend has to make up his own mind about his future, but the company has to make good on a contract. Yes?

Mark H

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Robert O'Connor_6

Ha Ha

Mark I have no doubt that you know what is right here and you have given the appropriate advice. What audience are you playing to?

Regards

Robert

ME

Mark Hunt

Geeze Rob


I am NOT playing to an audience! I swear!

This is a real situation. A friend is really getting sucked into this one.

I'll e-mail you the name of the company and their web address.

I am NOT making this up!

Mark H

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Robert O'Connor_6

and

What was "your " advice? This query has me puzzled . We all know you like the high road Mark what's the question here?

I guess as long as the salesman is a bona fide employee of the contractor he has nothing to worry about( outside the fact that he is working for a crook). If he brokered the deal, as an independent contractor then he may have some accountability coming.

Obviously installing something other than was spec'd is not right.


Regards

Robert

ME

Mark Hunt

Yah


you are correct sir.

Tried to e-mail you, but it got bounced back.

Real story Rob.

Question is, what would you do?

Mark H





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Robert O'Connor_6

Email

is good Mark . Take out the "dot" and put one in.


Regards

Robert

ME

Mark Hunt

ooops


on it's way.


Mark H

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Unknown

If you put down aluminum plates on the plywood, I would tell them what they have is superior to quik trak and the boss was happy to soak up the labor cost to deliver a better product.

otherwise, I'd look for a new boss.

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Weezbo

unless the substitution can be proven to be of equal....

or higher quality at the price quoted...I'd think it to be much like a bait and switch ...for example, not being able to get a darkopp mixing valve (quality unknown)price 980$, a "t "with a ball valve shows up in its place ...cha uh uh i'd have to say the guy was told one thing and was given another. now same valve quoted,same price, due to unavailability from the manufactures on the remote hillside community of a Siberian mountain hydronic gestalt group:) the man is offered a laserzolt ruckblickspiegel from a equally remote mountain village of reverse engineering mirror imaging product interpolators ,price 981$ that Can Do and preform equally with a complete set of directions in (the foriegn language of your choise) and enlighten the man in its presence ...Well , how would there be an argument ? reflect on ruckblickspiegel

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Eeegad!

An architect was involved and he specified a material with substitution made without consulation? NO! NO! NO!

'Tis one of the PRIME jobs of the architect to specify the materials they feel most appropriate and ENSURE that they are used.

If he hasn't already left, your friend needs to have a SERIOUS heart-to-heart with the boss! Even if he's "just" the salesman, such a thing will destroy his reputation with the very people he counts on for commissions.

tommyoil

whats the hard part here?

I would refuse to go to the job. The guy was quoted QT. He didnt get it. Now he wants what was contracted. Screw the boss, save your own face here. Is this buddy of yours not being honest because he'll lose his job if he is??? I work for a place where one day butcher installs are the norm. What I do when I go back to fix the new installs is level with the customer. Tell them they've been ripped off and that the boss is using cheaper material to try to make more profit off of them. Tell them that if they are interested that you know a company who does quality work and have the number handy. Then tell them to have all of the unspecified work corrected by the other company and send the bill to your boss along with their attorneys phone number. I wouldn't let them back in the house as everything will now be sour grapes. I would contact ANYONE who would listen ( B.B.B. or whoever) to get this criminals name on a list SOMEWHERE as it will obviously happen again. Its only a matter of time before his shoddy work catches up to him. Look for a new job. The guys a lemon (and a crook).

Mitch_4

WALK WALK WALK

If I lost my commision cuz some A**h*le changed it without telling me, it would be "You changed it, you explain it, you pay me, not my fault they called you on it. here's my notice"

If he's as good as you say, he should have no problems getting a new position, and I would look into small claims court for the commision if it was substantial.

My pennies.

Mitch

hr

So the issue, again, is??

The customer didn't get what he was sold.

The salesman didn't get a comission.

The installer looks like a smuck.

And the contract/owner did or did not learn and expensive lesson?

There is no combinations of wrongs that make a right in this, or any, issue like this.

hot rod

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Jamie Hall

When I'm not being a building super...

I'm being a PE, same trade... there are times when I'll specify a particular brand. There are times when I'll specifiy a particular brand 'or equal'. And there are times when I'll just write a performance spec. Depends on the job. I will always listen to the contractor's opinion, however, and if he's got a good argument, I'll change the spec. However... if it's in the spec., and it doesn't come out that way on the job, you can bet your bippy (or whatever!) that the contractor is going to have a BIG problem when I find out about it!

Supply House Rick

True Story

I did the quote for the Salesman at this Mechanical contracting firm. True story...I shared this with Mark for his opinion. This has happened too many times to count. I size and spec a Buderus with all the bells & whistles. They get the job and put in a far inferior brand. They quote heat transfer plates and butcher up some sheet metal and put those up. Also, they didn't router the plywood, they cut strips of particle board. They had to refund approx. 25% of job back... This gives our trade a bad name.

Ranger

Hum...

...Yea,That's all fine and dandy until you have to explain to your wife that it's o.k. that your now unemployeed but ya did the right thing...I know if your worth your salt that's only temporary,but you have now incured a $800.00 a month COBRA payment for at least the next three months.And who knows where you'll land?I'd bail but I would definatly try to find a new home where"I" wanted to go to work first.

George_10

I believe he would win in small claims court

He is entitled to his commission and he also could sue the company for including him in a fraudulent act. In any cse he should walk and also file with the BBB. This is not the only corner this company is cutting.

It sure makes you wonder how these paradites can survive.

Supply House Rick

The Salesperson

Didn't know until he was called by job super to come and look at the mess. He sells, I quote from the Wholesale side and he found out after and had to go explain why, not the boss who changed everything. Guess he needs the job. This is not as uncommon as you think...
Rick

mark_40

it is NEVER ethical

nor is it ever .. LEGAL ... (see the cap's ?? ) ... to "take business with you .. here in new york it is "theft of services", a class "d" FELONY ... that's REALLY GREAT ADVICE

tommyoil

Please clarify ethics...

Not ethical??????? Is it any MORE ethical to sell one thing and deliver another???? Why is it not ethical to give people quality service for a period of time only to have them join you when you switch companies or start up your own company. Unless there was some sort of restrictive agreement signed at the time that person was hired I dont see anything "unethical". If a good mechanic develops a following then he is entitled, as are those customers, to choose who they allow in their house. I wont sign any restrictive anything for anyone with regard to employment. How does the law dictate who you will allow in your house? Does that mean if your heating company(company A)provides the worse service imaginable and you switch companies to another (company who has a former employee of company A, its considered a crime???? I have no problem with that type of "unethical" behavior. Good service is hard to find. Take me to Judge Judy. I'll take my chances.

Kal Row

it's class D cause it's hard to convict..

if the customer says under oath that they would never again use a vendor, and the costomer hires former empoloyees of said vendor, you find me a jury that would convict - especially after hearing about said vendor's shnanigans

takeing away someone's business is a sin in the bible, but not throwing away businees that the bad vendor could not have gotten anyway is not!!! - and nyc law and any jury will follow that intent of the law