Is college best for everyone?

Constantin

No disagreement here...

... there are folks who benefit a great deal from college, there are others who won't (for whatever reason). I've met enough "admission errors" in my life to know that just having a degree from a good school does not guarantee a good head on the shoulders, or that they actually learned anything.

Furthermore, I also have called for the bright and mechanically inclined to go into the trades because a good living can be made there. Sure, there are those who'll look down their noses at you, but that happens regardless of profession... I remember the moving guys telling me stories about families in Boston refusing to let them use the toilets in their home!

However, you shouldn't let your lack of a college education be a chip on your shoulder. As Richard Feynman put "What do you care what other people think". If the folks that were calling you for help were so smart, they'd be able to do whatever it is themselves... so take pride in you knowledge, experience, and the insights that you bring to your particular niche on the great tree of knowledge.

Let me close though with one observation though: A degree from college is an option. You may or may not excercise it... but that's a choice that everyone makes for themselves. For example, I have three degrees... these degrees were vital stepping stones to a career I could not have pursued without them. As you move on in life and your resume gets longer, the importance of the initial education that got you there fades... but without that education, you may not be able to take that first step.

So, my inclination would always be to send my kids to college unless they'd be entirely unhappy being there.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thank Goodness

That no "one thing" is best for everyone! If it were, we'd have a really boring world...

I live adjacent to a State University and a number of college professors for friends.

In the past 15 years or so, it seems that much of the focus of the earlier years of college has become "teaching students how to learn". (They call it "University Studies" and have integrated such into nearly every basic course in the curriculum.) Personally I belive that's a travesty as such should have been learned LONG before college!

There has also been a push in that period to make kids believe that they MUST attend college to ever have a hope of making something of themselves. That idea has certainly filtered into those who hire workers--they look for a degree--any degree--when hiring blindly.

Perhaps because this (Southeast Missouri State) University is low-cost and is really only noted for their programs for teachers, an increasing number of the students seem just go through the motions to get the easiest possible degree.

The professors I know privately admit that the curriculum has been "dumned down" considerably lest they face furious backlash from parents footing the bills for failing students.

In such an incredibly diverse world, it's increasing difficult to find yourself and your place. For many (dare I say most?) fresh from high school is too early.

Those who enjoyed school and learned how to learn likely need a good dose of reality; those who disliked school and really never learned how to learn need a chance to find something about which they can be passionate--and actually WANT to learn.

The "one thing" that I believe almost all would benefit from is a period of mandatory national service in an unfamiliar environment. Of course that will never happen as while we believe that all are equal, we also believe that some are more equal than others.

John Ruhnke

Laywers.....................

The great inbalence............

The person who functions best in our school system is the person with the best memory skills. Memorizing is one intellegance skill of many. Memorizing allows one to do really well on a test. School is all about tests and grades based on test taking skills. The person who does the best fits the profile of a lawyer. We sure have a lot of lawyers in today's society. They do really well through school and life. They are great pencil pushers. Has this abundance of lawyers really made the world a better place? Look at the quality of health care today. It is way more expensive and you get a lot less. A Doctors workers comp is 160,000 a year and you can't take it out for part time either. A Doctor is forced to work full time or not at all. Forget about using that knowledge from a 65 year old Doctor, he is forced to retire in full because he can't do part time work.

The lawyers have created this sue happy frenzy out there that is making themselves rich and everyone else, specialy us poorer.

I know of a great medical inventor that spent 130 million to get a device through the FDA. The FDA has lots of rules rules and more rules written mostly by our politicians that are made up of 90% Lawyers. Lawyers now rule the USA. He told me that if he did'nt make milions from past inventions from the 60's and 70's he never would have been able to do it. He anounced that was his last invention in the medical field and that he was now retired. Do you blame him? He invented the mechanical Lung amoung many other things. This brilliant man will never invent again.

JR

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Gordy

John

Well said John! Funny how in todays society in can pay very well to be incompetent.... With the help of a Lawyer.
Gordy

Unknown

I disagree, my generation has the highest ratio of college grads of any generation in history. I can tell you, many of my grad friends are not realizing any tremendous boost to their earning potential just because they have degrees.

College CAN be the best way to learn what you need to learn. However, especially if you want to be your own boss instead of working for someone else, college doesn't help that too much unless you need the structured training in bookkeeping and the like.

If you just want to get a high paying job working for someone else, college may be the place. If you want to study things that are just beyond your ability to self-teach and you don't have ready access to mentors, college may be the place.

But if you want to determine your own destiny, college is only one option of many. A few college courses can help that, but a degree is rarely necessary.

I may go back for some advanced thermodynamics or maybe I'll just use MIT's open courseware available on the web to take my heat transfer knowledge to the next level. But I'll tell you, I took a non-traditional route after starting college once and finding I wasn't ready for it yet, went back and took night classes (and if you really want to learn, night classes are the way to go, everyone there wants to be there, it makes a difference) until whether or not I had a degree became a moot point because I had already started a buisness. My design partner has a degree in mechanical engineering, and I'll go toe to toe with him any day. Sometimes he has the right path and sometimes I do, but the point is, the degree is not what determines your value or your worth or your knowledge, it's just a convenient way of establishing a baseline of knowledge.

Furthermore it says absolutely nothing at all about your ability to work with people, listen to them, meet their needs or to think creatively.

So the short answer is, college is only best if your dreams involve things that need a degree. If security is the big concern then maybe working for someone else is indeed your goal. Personally, I much prefer being the master of my own life, inside and out, and I can see that a degree is next to worthless if that is your goal except as one route among many to garner the information and training you need to do whatever it is you want to do.

Don't let the normal educational routes trap you into thinking it's the only way. It's a good way for many, but there are always, ALWAYS other options. It's just too bad no one sits down with high schoolers and explains this and instead tries to push them all down the same paths. I wish I could have seen through it at that age, I could have saved a lot of time and headache.

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Unknown

Well said Jerry. I think you and I had some similar experiences with the premature transition to college and subsequent realizations. Live life and live it well, my friend.

Never worked to learn or learned to work, that summed it up completely for me when I dumped myself into college after high school.

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Unknown

I'm with you John, on all points. Furthermore it would be nice if our K-12 educational system wasn't so focused on training everyone that "do these things in this order we give you this well, and this goal will be met and things will be good". then dumping them into a world that doesn't work that way, and making them try to learn for the first time at 18, 22 or even later that the world is what it is and YOU can really, truly determine how you fit into it, that the boxes and labels they have been fed since they were old enough to talk were only convenient descriptors and not the entirety of life, and I wish it helped us by giving us the tools we need to figure out how it is we fit into this world.

John Taylor Gatto is a revolutionary teacher out there, google for him sometime, I think you might appreciate his viewpoints.

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Unknown

not anymore, too busy working

but when I was younger, I always had a book on me, and any time I wasn't busy, had to wait for 5 10 15+ minutes for anything, I was reading. always. I have to agree that reading is the key to everything else and I thank my mother constantly for instilling that in me at a very early age and giving me her love of words.

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john_27

Why not...

simply go to college at night?...You could have the best of both worlds...finishing your degree at your own pace...and working in your chosen vocation during the day?

DanHolohan

That's what I did.

It took me 19 years, but what's the rush?

Sociology. Best major in the world. ;-)

Uni R

HEF

The only HEF I know of is always surrounded by self-fueling heat emmitters. Every now and then he marries one of them.

Mark Woll_2

College was valuable, though it\"ll surprise you what I studied.

Interesting comments by everyone. College for me was incredibly essential, because, frankly, I never knew what I wanted to do, maybe I still don't! I've been at various times in my life a tradesman (historical renovation and mechanical), a professional magazine photographer, an attorney at one time (yes, amazing as it seems), a college professor, and an airline pilot for a major airline! Crazy.

And no, I'm not an attorney any more, though some people, wrongly (and insultingly) believe that once you become one, you are one for life.

Out of all that... my favorite is hydronic heat installations! And those beautiful but frustratingly hard to achieve greaser smooth landings in the plane.

One thing I have noted in examining lots of other plumbing work is how rare it is to find decent work done by others. You guys who read the Wall are exceptions, you want to improve you knowledge, but so many guys fail to do this. What a shame. Perhaps it is related to aversion to learning and bookwork that many tradespeople for some reason have.

Mark Woll_2

A valuable thing some learn in college: solving new problems

If you read my previous thread, you will know that I have worked with the whole range of people, from the bottom to the top, rich to poor, ivy league educated to virtually homeless. I have worked also in factories, on assembly lines, on airport ramps, etc. I have installed single handedly steam systems in large houses, etc.

There is one common element I see in many college educated people that is drastically missing in many not so fortunate: the ability to solve NEW, NEVER BEFORE SEEN problems. I cannot tell you how many times this has come up. Tradesmen (not the readers of The Wall!) seem to have particular difficulty handling new problems. Problems that require out of the box thinking; analysis of many different schools of thought; decision making involving comparison of competing therories; decisions perhaps involving integration of other trades.

I am certainly not saying that college makes one bullet proof in this regard (I also have fired idiot engineers) nor am I saying that lack of college guarantees difficulty in proplem solving. All I'm saying is that, on the whole, I personally have noticed that a broadened education allows one to solve more broadly.

Unknown

Causality

Put that education to work

Did college teach them to be like that, or are more people who are like that typically drawn to college?

I would put forth that college does help with broader thinking, but it's also in part that people who are inclined to focus on learning are currently ferried off to college.

And while college does help with broader thinking, it was still limited in that respect, it just seemed broader compared to our cookie-cutter-educational approach previous to that.

Basically.. college can be useful, but you're dead on, it's no magic bullet.



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DaveC

When I was in high school I was really interested in electronics but my math skills were zero, I couldn't multiply or divide. The school I applied to said I wouldn't be able to make it in electronics so I should plan to go into mechanics or something "less demanding". I went to vocational school for diesel mechanics and did very well, both in school and working in the trade for about 15 years. Unfortunately I lost my job.

At the time we were living in a economically depressed area with almost zero chance for employment so I was eligible for some special education programs. I applied at the local community college intending to go into another technical program. They tested me and of course said I would need to get my math skills up to high school level so they put me in a very basic self study class were I worked at my own speed. After a few months I was at the college math level and before I was done I went all the way though calculus 4 with straight A's. Because I got the help I needed I was able to succeed and get past the stumbling block that was closing doors. Eventually I earned a BS degree in chemistry and went on to do graduate work. After my schooling I went back to the same company where I had worked before, but of course in a different position. The college degree enable be to almost triple my previous salary so for me it was a good investment.

Anyone who would say that "people who don't go to college are losers" are themselves complete idiots. There are many jobs that don't require college. So if you are happy doing what you are doing and if you can make a living then that is what's important. If you want new opportunities then start taking a few classes and start working on a degree. I was almost 40 when I finished going to school the second time so it's never too late.

Good Luck

Mark

PS - If you think education is about memorizing then you are missing the point. The main thing you learn in college is how to think and how to solve problems. After I finished my coursework I found that it was much easier to solve mechanical problems for which I received no training in college.

Mark Woll_2

a mind-blowing question....

Great question. Is the group of college educated persons generally better problem solvers not because of college learning, but because better problem solving persons simply chose college in the first place?

Who the heck knows!

I will say this: Just the other day, I was called in by the owner to troubleshoot an expensive home's newly constructed $250k addition which had various radiant heat problems. I had lengthy conversations with the old timer who improperly (in my view) installed a radiant heat system into this 90 year old house.

The improper piping was at once apparent and was in direct conflict with every manufacturer's documentation which I showed him. Yet, nothing could shake him. He was simply unable to join me in a discussion of the water path and determination of the various flows and pressures. He was unwilling to look at the papers I brought. He couldn't engage in a back and forth discussion. All he could say was "let me call Wirsbo". He could not theoretically trace in his head the changes I requested he make. He installed the stuff, as I told him, on the basis of plumbing folklore, not based on the manufacturers instruction sheets or on accepted hydronic principles.

I asked for a copy of his heatloss calculations, he wouldn't give them to me. I asked for his construction drawings or sketches, there weren't any. I asked for this, for that, nothing. I asked for the length of pex he installed in each zone, couldn't tell me, etc.

I hate generalizing about persons and their education, but I seem to bump into these kinds of guys all the time!

Mark Woll_2

Awesome! I agree completely.

A great job teaching yourself! I do it all the time, everyday, nonstop. All different subjects. I did it backwards compared to you...I had the graduate degree first, worked, then learned the trades (and flying) and quit the professional job. So now I earn a quarter of what I used to make, but I don't despise work and work myself into a lather worrying about files and cases.

You are incredibly on point at the end of your posting about problem solving. See also my postings above.

Gordy

Mark

> Great question. Is the group of college educated

> persons generally better problem solvers not

> because of college learning, but because better

> problem solving persons simply chose college in

> the first place?

>

> Who the heck knows!

>

> I will

> say this: Just the other day, I was called in by

> the owner to troubleshoot an expensive home's

> newly constructed $250k addition which had

> various radiant heat problems. I had lengthy

> conversations with the old timer who improperly

> (in my view) installed a radiant heat system into

> this 90 year old house.

>

> The improper piping

> was at once apparent and was in direct conflict

> with every manufacturer's documentation which I

> showed him. Yet, nothing could shake him. He

> was simply unable to join me in a discussion of

> the water path and determination of the various

> flows and pressures. He was unwilling to look at

> the papers I brought. He couldn't engage in a

> back and forth discussion. All he could say was

> "let me call Wirsbo". He could not theoretically

> trace in his head the changes I requested he

> make. He installed the stuff, as I told him, on

> the basis of plumbing folklore, not based on the

> manufacturers instruction sheets or on accepted

> hydronic principles.

>

> I asked for a copy of his

> heatloss calculations, he wouldn't give them to

> me. I asked for his construction drawings or

> sketches, there weren't any. I asked for this,

> for that, nothing. I asked for the length of pex

> he installed in each zone, couldn't tell me,

> etc.

>

> I hate generalizing about persons and

> their education, but I seem to bump into these

> kinds of guys all the time!

Gordy

Mark

So, did you solve the problem Mark?

John Ruhnke

3D thinking..............

I do go to college at night and I have taken courses. I would have taken a few more if it wasn't for the incompatance of our politicians and local trade school. For four years I took two class's a night while in my apprenticeship program. The class's taught by the plumbers and heating techs were great because they talked about what happened on the job a lot. The other class's stunk because they were way to easy for me. I once asked the teacher if I could substitute this stupid general math class that they made me take for college courses. They said NO!! I am still mad at them to this day. After I finished the apprenticeship program I did take college class's over the years. I have taken class's at three different universities. Fairfield U, UConn and Norwalk Tech. In my spare time I go. Now that I have kids it is harder to find spare time.

I know how to learn. I don't need college to teach me how to learn. My way of learning is a bit different. I can think in 3D. I picked it up while auto racing and working on cars. I can see things that many college graduats can't see. The biggest problem that I have which is hugely evident in all of the replies is that most college people don't understand that. They look at credentials not ability. Most college grads don't understand how to learn my way. Oh yes a lot think they do but they don't. Also because they can't think in 3D often they can't see in 3d either, so they just assume that what I have is dumb. Some very smart college graduates at the DOE looked at the HEF in a grant proposal. They couldn't see. They said that the HEF was not original and that it was being done by energy auditors already. They gave me the name of the energy auditors. I talked to them and no, it wasn't being done. The grant reviewers were not smart enough to understand the difference in how TREAT works and how my HEF works. I have another friend who is a electrical engineer his name is Bob Distinti and he has lots of patents too. Bob can see and think in 3D and he understands my frustration with the HEF. Many smart trades people that I talked to can see in 3D too. Some can even think in 3D. Fred who works for me can think in 3D. I first thought of and developed the HEF in 3D then I turned it into a formula. They don't teach 3D in college.

I write grants, patent applications and other papers. Now I am writing a Vision statement for the HEF. It is many pages and taking a long time. I am also reading a great book. The seven habits of highly effective people by Stephen Covey

JR

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Scott Denny

Looking for Mr. Goodwrench

Here's a recent article that looks at this from a different perspective.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/11/28/BUGN7A26Q71.DTL

PJO_5

Late in the Game...

Wallies,

An excellent thread, and I actually have some input :-)

I went to school part-time for 11 years while working. I also spent four years in the military. While I wouldn't want my kids to take the same route, I also believe it was best for me.

Out of high school, I was 17 and NOT ready for college...I didn't do well in high school, and was also a late bloomer. My father told me I wasn't ready for college, but since I was a rebel I thought he was just saying that because he had 13 kids - both were true! :-)

I joined the military, and then four years later I started college...and STILL wasn't ready for it because I didn't have enough fun yet...among other things. I changed my major three times, and all the while Kathleen stayed with me. I was working the whole time, and when I finally got serious it all started to click. I now have my current job because of my degree, and my last two jobs were the same way. I changed careers four years ago, and the new door was opened because of my degree AND experience...I needed both.

Kathleen did the same thing as far as working and school - all the way to her Master's from Penn. She has shown me that nothing is impossible, and that is what got me through my difficult years of school/work/houses/kids.

I think I am qualified to make this statement, based on my mix of personal, educational and life experiences;
A mix of college and experience is undoubtably the best as far as advancing yourself, but you MUST; 1) Have a passion for what you do, and 2) Keep the attitude that you will NEVER be smarter or dumber than the next person...all people have both something to give and something to learn.

This website is the pinnacle of the previous statement, along with being such a wonderful gathering place. Where else can you talk to a plumber, engineer, and race car/hydronics expert at nearly the same time?

Take Care, PJO

Darren_6

LMAO

I wonder if he learned that in college????

db

Darren_6

LMAO

I wonder if he learned that in college????

db

Mark Woll_2

we'll see

Today i met with the CG who adopted my recommendations and willbe taliking to the plumber.