Is college best for everyone?

John Ruhnke

Is college best for everyone?

I am reading this really great book on Leadership Skills called the 7 habits of highly effective people by Stephen Covey. On page 250 in the book he talks about struggles that his teenage son had. His son talks about a friend named Joe who dropped out of school to become an auto mechanic. “Joe is making money and doing well the son says.” The son is struggling in school and looking to his father for advice. Of course the advice is to stay in school and tough it out. The underlying message in the book is that only losers don’t go to college. It is the underlying message that I see all over this country. All the teachers and parents preach it but is it true?

Is college the best route for everyone? Is it the best route for all smart kids? Was it the best route for me? I have asked myself that question ever since I dropped out of college in the third week. My parents told me that I made a terrible decision that I will regret for the rest of my life. I have been second guessing myself ever since and it really bothers me. My parents are great and once I joined the trades they have supported me 100% but to this day my mom always says that if I want I can go and finish college, I can.

Thomas Edison, Bill Gates, and The Wright Brothers didn’t go to college. All three have made huge contributions to society. This year I have reached the conclusion that my decision to go into the trades was the best for me, for society and the greater good of everyone together. If I went to college now or in the past to get my engineering degree or if I quit the development I was going through in the trades it would hurt everyone in society. Yes I did go back to college and take a few courses here and there but I never had time or a desire to get a degree. Why? Because I was learning and getting smarter everyday in the trades. I received a valuable education that continues to this day and I wouldn’t trade it in for anything in the world. I am a Plumbing & Heating Contractor, my skills and knowledge is as valuable as any engineers, in some cases more valuable. Mostly because not enough smart kids choose my route, the trades. Most smart kids go to college, so hands on knowledge gets neglected. Hands on knowledge is extremely valuable.

Four main reasons went into my decision not to go to college. I had good grades in high school. I was in all of the college prep classes with a B average. I dropped out of college and went into the trades. 1) I had a very high mechanical aptitude. 2) I enjoyed working on cars as a hobby while in high school. I noticed that I could stay up until 2AM in the morning while working on the car. It was fun. I never looked at the clock. 3) Although at the time I didn’t know it, I had and have ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) I have a mild case of it. I could get my home work done. I could sit in class. But I HATED IT!! I looked at the clock every ten minutes waiting to get out. 4) The day before I dropped out, I met Joe Gawel, a very successful Plumbing & Heating Contractor who told me how he started his own business with a few power tools and a pick up truck. Joe lived in a huge house with a three car garage. He owned this beautiful Trans Am. I loved that car.

Let me talk a little about ADD because there is something about it. ADD is not always a bad thing. ADD made me dislike school work. ADD makes me dislike mundane things. I have had nightmares about being forced to work as a tollbooth operator. I chose Plumbing & Heating over Auto Mechanics and Computers because I wanted to see a new location everyday. I really enjoy working on something new. Many of our past great Inventors had ADD. Also I noticed that when I learned how to do something, I had to move on and try something more challenging. When my life runs smoothly I get bored. This boredom eats me up inside. I will then set up a goal for something difficult to achieve. Soon I become overwhelmed. I am constantly balancing myself between boredom and an overwhelming sense. I am happiest somewhere in-between. Every year I find myself getting smarter and smarter. I feel it is this ADD that pushes me away from the mundane ness of things that I have gotten used to and on to better and greater challenges. When doing paperwork, over the years I have found ways to deal with ADD. One way is with a stop watch. I work for a set period of time, like 45 minutes, and then I take a break or try working on something different. Another thing that works is to move my work location. I go to different libraries, kinko’s and Starbucks. Seeing new places and faces help to break the monotony.

I ask you would it have been good to stick me, this kid who had ADD and a high mechanical aptitude in college? Subject them to a desk and the same class room for four years straight while driving them insane? Or maybe they should be working with there hands as auto mechanics, plumbers and heating technicians.

I design my own Radiant heating projects now. I have gotten two engineers fired off of projects because there knowledge of hydronics was not as good as mine. Most importantly I have invented the HEF. (Heating Efficiency Formula) It will save the world billions of dollars in fuel bills every year. It is the development of the HEF that convinced me that I did the right thing. Knowledge gained from Autoracing and Heating combined to help me with this project. Knowledge I would not have if I went to college. Knowledge that will save the world billions of dollars in fuel bills every year.

John Ruhnke
JR@ComfortableHeat.com


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Mark Hunt

John


I would have skipped school with you any day!

Same boat here. I absolutely hated school. My grades were great, but I was as unhappy as a person could be. College grades were good, but I hated it even more. I lasted 1 year.

I love what I do, and I love learning more about what I do.

I can't say if college is for everyone or not, but I would want my kids to be darn sure before they decided to quit anything. I think you would agree with that too.

I couldn't tell from meeting you that you did not attend college. What does that tell ya'?!?!?!

You're the best!!

Mark H

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Mark Eatherton1

College is NOT for everyone..

although you will play hell trying to convince the high school counselors of that...

Trades school is where they hide their problem children. The James Deans of the era...

Johns story echos my life almost to a T. I'm not sure I'm ADD, but who knows, maybe I am and am just living with it.

I, like most parents, wanted my children (all 3 girls) to go to colege so that they could do good in life. Of the three, one finished with a Masters in Speech and Audiology, the 2nd got a Bachelors in communication and the third is still struggling to get through it. The third has a full time job with the city as a swimming pool supervisor making decent money with benes, the second is a color consultant, and she LOVES it, although shes not making as much money as she'd like, and the first one is a regional manager for the worlds largest chain of hearing aid companies in the world. They did me proud. Kinda makes you wonder what they would have done if I hadn't pushed them. My parents (we all must be alike) pushed me to go to college too. I did, for about 6 weeks. THen I ran into a former employer who offered me my old job back at double what they were paying me before, and I jumped at the opportunity. It wasn't realy trades related, but it gave me a lot of business skills that I still use today, and it alowed me to exercise my mechanical skills. I still don't regret that decision. I eventually joined my father in his plumbing business, and as Paul Harvey says, The rest is history...

Now, I teach college at a local community college.. Ironic eh..

As for todays high school students, I think the schools need to be doing aptitude tests, and if the student doesn't show a high propensity for college, show him the trades path and let him/her make a decision. Don't force them to go to college against their will. It will do NO ONE any good.

As a trades person, it would be a good idea to get involved with your local grade schools EARLY in an effort to get some new blood into these fine trades. I'm talkng as early as the 6th grade. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't go talk to the 10 thru 12th grade crowd. I just believe in planting seeds early.

Face it folks, were in SERIOUS trouble here. THere are more people leaving the trades than there are people joining it. Technicians are going to be able to demand more money than computer nerds in the NEAR future. You can live without your PC for a wile, but try getting by with no toilet or heat and see how long you can go. People are not willing to wait for service, and are willing to pay a higher premium to get it done.

The soap box is now available...

ME

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Mad Dog

a Resounding NO!!!!!!

A college diploma today carries as much wieght in the business world today as a high school diploma did 25 years ago - just about everyone entering the business world has one. College is not for everyone. I have seen many a student waste their parent's money, floundering about the academic world with no direction - usually for several years! I went to college after 5 years in the trades, paid for it myself, had great focus and finished on time - with honors. This was all the more amazing since I barely got out of high school, not knowing if I would graduate until the day of rehearsals for the ceremony - I squeaked it out - whew! I'm glad I went to College: it put some much needed polish on me, procured me a fine wife, and helped me focus in my return to the trades - namely buckling down with the books for my master plumber's test. I know many tradesmen and business who are very successful and never went to college. It is not a prerequisite for success, but is definitely a help. Mad Dog - Phi Beta Kappa

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S Ebels

My college views

It depends.......... (famous last words)

Traditional college IE: liberal arts type education is definitely not for everyone. Going to college for the experience leaves a kid with a mountain of debt, a good broad education and a job at Burger King. If a person is going to go to college it should be for a particular area. One of my son-in-laws is a good example. He has a 4 year Master's in Business from a very good private college. He also has about $38,000 of debt on student loans of all types. He's now working as a carpenter for $12.00 an hour plus med insurance. That's it. Does a lot of side jobs to augment his income and Sally works 3 days a week outside the home. Why does he work as a carpenter? Because he LOVES it and he has the natural ability to do excellent work. It is his gift. Give me a stack of OSB and some 2x4's and I can make a deer blind..... maybe.......probably be tilted one way or the other. Give him the same material and tools and he could build you a beautiful home or a set of cabinets or a gorgeous entertainment center.

This brings to mind the thought that everyone has a natural talent, a natural "bent" if you will. There is a specific task or job out there that suits about anyone. The two just have to find each other. To me, that should be the primary task of an educator in this day and age. Our society is becoming so specialized in just about every area that a broad education beyond high school is mostly a waste of time unless you use it as a base for still higher education.

There's a verse in the Bible that has always stuck with me in regards to this topic. Regardless of your beliefs there is a lot of wisdom in it. Proverbs 22:6 goes like this; "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it." Now the obvious meaning for that verse is discipline and basic functioning in society but there is another meaning I wasn't aware of until recently. I bought a literal tranlation of the Bible that gives the root and the meaning of the words in the origional language. The word "train" in that verse is the same word that would have been used at that time by an arborist working in a vinyard. The arborist doesn't take a grapevine that is growing toward the right and bend it around 180* to make it grow left. He let's it grow to the left but he prunes it and ties it up in such a way that it becomes a productive part of the plant. He looks at the natural tedency of the vine and then using that, he guides it and shapes it to accomplish what it can and should.

Not only kids but people of all ages should be treated in the same way. There are some who are "cut out" to be managers, some who are wrench turners, some who are doctors, some who are janitors, some who are scientists, some who are farmers etc etc. One has no more intristic "worth" as a person than the other.

The major problem that I see in our schools is the notion by most of the acedemic types that a "hands on" type job is, or should be, beneath a person's dignity. Maybe they hold that opinion themselves and assume that everyone else is the same........I don't know. Sad if it's true. To all those who hold that opinion I will leave you with this thought.

Who would you miss more if they didn't do their job? A movie star that "earns" 7 or 8 figure income per year or the janitor that cleans your office? Which one is of more value to your quality of life?

Bill Nye_2

I made it

through about 4 semesters. Work and a lack of funds were the reason I dropped out. I enjoyed every minute of it and may go back to continue some day.

But as far as advancing my career or improving my income? I think if I did it 20 yrs ago but I wasn't ready then.

Weezbo

It is If You want to meat chicks

Gordy

Weezbo

You Crack me up!! You are right.:O

J.C.A._3

Mad Dog makes a valid point.

A degree now-a-days, is a pretty piece of paper that shows someone willing to give you a chance that you have learned how to learn.

A show of hands please....How many people do you know personally that went to college for the field that they are presently employed in? My count is very low, however I DO know some of the most educated waiters ,waitresses and bartenders in the country!(the Boston colleges turn em out in droves!).

Some folks are cut out for it, some aren't. I went to the school of life....What'samata U, insert dopeslap sound here. The military was the best education I could have ever asked for. Most high schoolers don't even consider this alternative to college. Mark and Steve are both right. Get the teachers involved. Do they even talk to parents at the high school level anymore? Give them options. Like MD, a lot of people I know went to college AFTER a few years of getting their feet wet and figuring out what they wanted to pursue. Smart decision. Why waste time and money on stuff you'll never or rarely need? JMHO. Chris

Bill Spadafora

> As for

> todays high school students, I think the schools

> need to be doing aptitude tests, and if the

> student doesn't show a high propensity for

> college, show him the trades path and let him/her

> make a decision. Don't force them to go to

> college against their will. It will do NO ONE any

> good.


But there's no reason you can't go to college and work at a trade. That's what I did. It wasn't what I had planned but it worked out well for me. I knew it was all worth it one day when I was trying to convince a gas company tech that the number of cfh of gas I needed wasn't going to fit through the meter he had installed. He looked at me and with entirely the wrong attitude asked me if I had a degree in engineering. I said yes and it shut him right up. And the meter got changed.

I tried to convince my son to finish college instead of working with me. Didn't work. Now he has his journeyman's license and appears to be enjoying himself. I tell him I live for the day he admits he should have finshed.

Gordy

Depends

I truley believe Some of us are leaders some are followers but you need to enjoy what you are doing.Be a productive individual to society, and you have done the right thing with your life.

I'm still a firm believer in starting in the mail room and working your way up from there in any trade needing degree or not, I feel this produces the most well rounded working individual and it was that way for years.

This world was built by the tradesmen of all types,who were Pushed forward by the idealist,and the results studied by the scientist.We are all leading one another in this cycle. This is how society evolves.We all contribute to one another there is no I in the word "TEAM".Now just pick a position thats right for "YOU",and help make this world a better place.

Be Happy Gordy

John Conway

alternatives

I was about top of class of a private church school. Everyone there went on to college. I decided it wasn't for me as a junior but landed in college anyway (family pressure, etc). After dropping in & out a number of times (& wasting money & occasionally turning in good grades), I finally dropped out & stayed out.

The only argument I ever had with my grandfather - an amazing man, hunter, fisher, mounted Army scout on the Mexican border, in the trenches in France, self-educated and self-made successful business man - was went I announced my bailing out of school. He sent his children and grandchildren to top end schools. When I dropped out & went to work in a local hospital while my (Vietnam-era) CO application was considered, we had a pretty serious discussion. Ultimately, he supported me fully - perhaps because I told him how much I admired his hard work.

If I'd stayed in school, I wouldn't have gotten my hands dirty. I probably would have become an attorney. I wouldn't have been the climbing instructor, bike mechanic, tobacco salesman, computer geek, social worker (to hit a few highlights) I became. Do I regret walking out of college? Sometimes, on bad days. Mostly I'm thankful for my family and the people I've met along the way.

My real point: I think a few years of real life between high school & college should be the model. I've endorsed universal national service since the 60's - for some it's the military; for others hospital or national park service or....

Scott22

relative worth

Whenever I get done on myself for not using my Ivy League education to it's fullest potential I'm cheered up by quotes like this.
"An excellent plumber is infinitely more admirable than an incompetent philosopher.
The society that scorns excellence in plumbing just because plumbing is a humble activity,
and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity,
will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy.
Neither its pipes nor its philosophy will hold water."
- John William Gardner

Robert O'Connor_7

John William Gardner..

That is a great quote..Robert O'Connor/NJ

Constantin

Not everyone should go to college...

...but the American system makes college extremely accessible and not having a degree will hold you back in many businesses. Being self-employed as many of you are, the need for degrees is lessened, particularly since this industry has a tradition of taking in apprentices and working them up to the Master level.

However, such systems do not exist in most US industries and consequently, the lack of a college degree or high-school diploma can really hold folks back. For example, you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone to hire you at a top consulting or investment banking firm if you don't have a high-GPA degree from a top school. Similarly, you won't be a doctor or practicing law. However, you can do plenty of other things, that will probably pay less but could be more fun for you...

The other end of extremes is a place like the old German system where they decide at age 10 whether you'll go to college or not. It's not that you cannot make switches between the non-university track and the university track, it's merely that it's basically impossible to accomplish. The university-track students are expected to learn a minimum of two foreign languages, the requirements are reduced as you go down the chain of schools.

Anyway, there is no reason that you have to graduate from a college to be successful. What you really need is motivation, a work ethic, and bright ideas. Whatever you do with all those faculties is up to you...

J.C.A._3

Robert,

You're so right, that IS a great quote. My question is.... What did John William Gardner do for work? Did he have the PASSION that those of us here do, while doing it?

There is a DEFINATE difference between "earning a living", and doing something you love. The biggest difference will always be the want to learn more. For those of you that think you know it all, you're going to get bored and lose the passion. For those of us that strive to never STOP learning.....this is our college. We happen to learn and acheive in a different way than some others do. This is a good thing . Chris

Scott22

J.W.Gardner

Gardner, John William


1912–2002, American public official, U.S. secretary of health, education, and welfare (1965–68), b. Los Angeles. After teaching psychology at Connecticut and Mt. Holyoke colleges and serving as an intelligence officer with the U.S. Marine Corps in World War II, he joined the Carnegie Corp. of New York in 1946, becoming its vice president in 1949 and its president in 1955. Also in 1955 he became president of the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching. A Republican, he was named by President Lyndon B. Johnson to succeed Anthony J. Celebrezze as secretary of health, education, and welfare in July, 1965, but resigned in Mar., 1968, becoming head of the National Urban Coalition. In 1970 Gardner founded Common Cause, a nonpartisan citizens’ lobby; he served as its chairman from 1970 to 1977. Gardner was a professor of public service at Stanford Univ. from 1989 to 1996. He is the author of Excellence: Can We Be Equal and Excellent Too? (1961), Self-Renewal: The Individual and the Innovative Society (1964), and No Easy Victories (1968).

J.C.A._3

Thanks Scott.

From the post I can see that he was not only well educated, but also well "rounded". He pushed people to do the best they could with what they know or are able to learn/comprehend, and make the most from it.

In my world, that IS an educator. My best teachers are willing and able to do the same with individuals. He seemed to be pushing at the "national level".

I guess you've just given me someone to learn about. Sounds like a great educator and I'll look into it.To quote DD Eisenhower, "history is a teacher, those that don't know it are doomed to repeat the same mistakes".

HEW was a new department in the 60's and I was but a puppy. Mr Gardner sounds like a visionary and realist . I've always tried to preach that to the children that I speak with but their parents seem to look down on "tradesman" as a lower class. Sad but true. We may not always be eating steak, but the people that are, need us and that will never change.The way the trades are going, we may be equal to or slightly above steak in a couple years. Not so much revenge, but honest payback. I figure I spent a bit more time, but a bit less money learning something that is worth WAY more to them.Again,JMHO. Chris

Scott22

Quotes

Chris
I think Ike borrowed the quote of the usefulness of the past from G. Santayana.
"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the first stage of life the mind is frivolous and easily distracted, it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence. This is the condition of children and barbarians, in which instinct has learned nothing from experience."
George Santayana, The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905

hr

Wouldn't you have to attend college

to know that answer? If you don't go, ya don't know! If it was a good choice. I suppose.

I don't have any college under my belt, but every time I walk around one I get a longing to take some classes.

I got a lot of positive vibes when I attended ME's class at Red Rocks in Denver a few years back. Lots of older folks attending all sorts of classes to get some higher ed. Looked like fun

Although I was in a hydronic state of mind, I had my first run in with a spud (not stun) gun, at Red Rocks

hot rod

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David_5

College

No, college is not beat for everyone.

Can you elaborate on HEF?

David

jerry scharf_2

How and when do we \"learn to learn\"

I agree with just about all of the comments made. For me the problem was I was too young when I went to college. I really wanted to take a year or two, work in the real world and then see where I was at. No dice on waiting, and no dice on anything but an engineering/science major. Big mistake.

The problem was I had neither learned to work or learned to learn. College was a disasterous time for me. I only realized afterwards that I was depressed and suicidal for a good bit of the time.

It was only when I went to work in computers that I found my stride, little by little. It was a free-wheeling time in the late 70s and everything was new and interesting. First I learned to work. There was too much to be done, and so I worked many long hours. I learned the real meaning of a project, and that partial credit doesn't exist. I had great stamina, and can remember more 100 hour weeks and 36 hour days than I care to.

It still took me time to learn how to learn. Sometimes being quick is a curse, because you never need to couple learning to work to learning itself. Now I have learned to learn, and can take on almost any subject with energy and discipline. I have also learned that to be "the best" is not the goal, but instead to be the best I can be in all aspects of my life. This is the learning I am now working on, and it's harder than the others. There is no area that can be bypassed for another, as all are needed in my life.

Once I learn this, I'm sure there will be another type of learning to master.

I have ended up a systems design person. I will take on just about any system someone asks me to work on. For years they were computer systems and pieces of the Internet. Now they are construction related. The common thread is that I don't break the system to pieces, I look at it as a whole and look at the interactions. Most people are specialized and can only see their piece, I am the bridge that can engage specialists and still see the whole picture.

There are no college degrees for this, and the trend is to do the opposite. I believe the liberal arts rounded educations is one of the great losses of modern society. If we create specialists who know no history, no literature, no science or math, we create people who have to protect their small worlds rather than reaching to the future. How can we ask a doctor who has never had a serious literature or philosophy course to relate to people and have a good bed side manner. The pats are for the big operation of the most research papers.

What is so wonderful about Dan and the people who have gathered here is that there aren't boxes for people to fit in. I will never be a heating contractor, yet I'm welcome here and able to add the small amount that I may see differently. In return I get to enjoy the people and learn, a great trade for my part.

In the spirit of the week, I'm humbled by all that I have to be thankful for. Reading this thread has brought that home in a deeply personal way.

yours,
jerry

Mark Eatherton1

Wow...

Left me speechless Jer..

Glad you're a part of our neighborhood. You NEVER stop learning.

ME

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Mark Eatherton1

Feeding gophers from long range...

You, me and some crazy cowboy from up in the Dakotas as I remember:-)

I shot it off in class a couple of times to get peoples attention. Works pretty good:-)

HR, it was an honor having you as a student, as it is ALL of my students. They're there for a reason, to learn. In most cases, they're paying for it themselves, and taking advantage of the tax credits. They're NOT there, watching the clock, waiting for it to get to be time to leave. I have a hard time getting them to put away their tools in time to get out on normal time. We're always late shuttin' er down...

I was asked by the campus police to quit carrying my spud guns around the school. Repercussions of Columbine I'm sure. If they ask, I tell its a plumbing demonstrator:-) They believe me.

I then go on to show the power of hairspray...

ME

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ScottMP

College hhmmm.

Structure, organization skills, business training, all these things would have helped get me where I am.

I went for two years. Went to a State school because of the money and the fact they asked me to play football. Had I Any idea where I would end up I would have stayed and taken business classes. Probable would have saved me thousands that I wound up paying the IRS for not knowing how to run a business. Maybe not.

I am glad I am doing what I am doing. The skills I might (re;maybe) have learned may have helped me reach my goal quicker and with less pain. Maybe not.

I do agree too many spend four years drinking and socializing at a Frat. These are our heads of industry and in one case the leader of the free world :0. Who knew ?

I am going to try and get together a group of tradesman this spring and speak to my local high school about options for students in the trades. I think a college education could help many trademans. Business class certainly would help many.

I feel Very Strongly that the heating trade is headed in an area that technical skills will be necessary. I am not sure if high schools are teaching the level of understanding necessary for this. Most trade school most certainly are not.

There are times I wished I finished college. Probable the same feelings John has. I hope I still would wind up where I am. Sitting here posting to some of the brightest minds in our country.

Scott


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Dean_7

college

I went to college in the 1970's mainly because my paernts wished me to. Got a degree in biology that I never really used. I went back to college at age 45 (nursing school) and love my job. My relatives were all skilled trades people and there are days that I wish I could do some of the things they could. The point is college is not for everyone. But try to convince High School guidence people of that. Skilled trades people are needed and will always be needed.

Two more people who never went to college:
Abraham Lincoln
Harry S. Truman
Both did pretty well.

hr

With the current trends in the HVAC industry

One will quickly get left behind without some computer skills. Virtually all the high efficiency equipment benefits from a computer savy installer. Which I'm not, by the way.

If you plan on pushing the envelop in this arena you will need some 'puter skills. This may, or may not be available at the high school level.

hot rod

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John Ruhnke

Not here

Not here

JR

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John Ruhnke

Finish College........

I don't wish I finished college because of the lack of knowledge or because I wished I learned more. In fact the opposite is true. I stay out of college to continue learning. I wish I finished college because I feel people don't give me the respect that a good trades person deserves. Also if I wasn't an entrepreneur I would be discriminated against because I don't have a degree. I call it discrimination because I can do as good a job or better then any engineer. Yet the first question they ask me is where did you go to school. They would never give me a job developing new products or even if they did they would under pay me for it. When I say I didn't go to college then I am told I can't even call my self an engineer because some dumb **** lawyer may sue me for doing so. My skill set that I have developed is a little different then that of an engineer. It compliments there knowledge. Most of my best friends are engineers. I guess because we think a like. I can see things differently from a 3D angle that 95 percent of the engineers don't have. Or at least not as well developed as in me. There are things like formulas and such that I feel I may be behind. But that is OK because there are plenty of engineers I can work with to fill in the gaps.

I have taken courses at college. Small business management and a few courses on inventing and accounting. Stuff I feel that I need. Nothing wrong with college. But it is getting a degree and taking four years off what I am doing right now that would hurt the world. I learn everyday. I read lots of books. I take a lot of seminars and go to trade shows. I was a member of Contractors 2000. I am a very active member in many trade organizations. I receive a very valuable education every day. I never stop learning. Because of ADD, a four year structured system just won't work well for me. I like the way I learn and the results prove that it works for me. So I will continue with it.

JR

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hr

John, I looked into online

degrees. Ferris State in Michigan has a top notch HVACR online program.

I just can't seem to sit still long enough to even try this format!

My hands fit tools much better than keyboards. My finger tips hurt if I do a lot of hunt and pick keypunch work I'm a pecker in that respect!

hot rod

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John Ruhnke

You miss the point.............

Hot Rod,

The world needs the HEF to learn how to build a efficient heating system. If I went to college now it would cost the world billions of dollars in fuel bills every year. We need to use the HEF to learn how to build efficient heating systems. I have a lot to learn and so does everyone else.

JR

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Weezbo

\"i will study and get ready for someday,my chance will come

Thats a motto the Abe Lincon focused his life around...it works for me. education is an on going process. too many colleges and universities are in the education business to sell books. i like books,thing is.... what is that schools philosophy of education?

Paul Pollets

Learning is never ending...

My father's classic line was "There's no such thing as too much knowledge"...It took me over 8 years to finish my degree, which happens to be in Environmental Design. I neither had the patience or discipline to finish conventionally. Besides, the early '70's were filled with campus discord and very distracting non-academic pursuits, such as partying and women. I was able to design my own curriculum with the help of a mentor, who was the founder of Creative Playthings. The course load gave me a thorough background in design, architectural and mechanical drawings, construction technique, group design methodology (ala New Bauhaus). The required courses (which I disliked) like Speech and Public Speaking, had obvious impact to my career. What I thought never interested me then, fascinates me now. The discipline in learning to complete something that may be boring or seemingly unrelated to life, has enabled me to see years later, the worth of spending the time. Discipline is the key. The more time spent in pursuit of more knowledge, will always pay off down the road. Had I not had a very inspiring mentor to guide me, I would never have finished. The HVAC trades in N. America suffer from a general "dumbing down" or "buttcrack" mentality, poor skillset and low self-esteem. That same mentality is apparent in the entire educational system. We teach to the "average" and have not inspired the exceptional. Ellen Rohr talks about being inspired and wanting to be "more" than the average bear. Hopefully, those who "Gotta Wanna" will find the path to greater success is not as dependent upon a 4 year degree, as their motivation will cultivate success. Alan Levi talked about reading 10 hrs. per week in a recent PM column, and equated increased success to hrs. reading Can anyone honestly say they spend that amount of time reading, rather than watching TV?

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jackchips_2

Yes.

No question college is best for everyone. That is the way society is set up now. Sadly not everyone is capable of completing the degree requirements.

Does this mean those of us without wouldn't still succeed? Of coarse not. Would we have had it easier with that little BS (no pun intended) after our name, how could anyone say no?

Many more will achieve great success without college but they will be fewer and fewer because we won't let them.

I also believe there should be some time after high school and before higher education for many "kids" to adapt to life. It's to bad the system is set up the way it is now that if you don't go to school right away your options diminish.

One thing is for sure, this question has no definitive answer and it will be asked many times 10, 20 and more years from now. Although it may become, is a PHD really required for someone to succeed?

Bill Nye_2

You have to

You gotta read,none of my co-workers read any trade magazine. Many do not even read a newspaper.

I read as much as I can.

Quote of the Day: What we become depends on what we read after all of the professors have finished with us. The greatest university of all is a collection of books.
[Thomas Carlyle]

Quote of the Day: The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.
[Mark Twain]

John R. , I had a guidance counselor at college who would tell you that you should probably finish school!

I argued for 30 yrs I did not need school. I went to community college 29 yrs after high school. I love to learn and that is what is all about. You don't know what you don't know until you get there.

None of it was a waste of time. Many of my classes were developemental. Meaning I had to learn stuff I should have learned in High School. They do teach you how to learn, unfortunately many high school grads have no study skills or life skills.

Computer skills, math skills, writing skills, speaking skills, business classes. How is any of this going to hurt when it comes to trying to run a business or work in our trade?

Lose the chip, take a class or two. Most towns have adult ed. classes and community colleges are gaining popularity these days. You do not have to take a degree program, just find something you are interested in and take a class. You might meet some very nice people with similar interests.

Learning is exercise for your brain. If you don't exercise your body you get fat and lazy. If you don't use your mind..... you become a couch potato. Well, if school is just out of the question, pick a subject that intrigues you and develop your own course of study. Weak on electronics, controls, steam, ac, ________ , fill in the blank? Make up your mind in 2005 and pick one topic and spend the year learning at your own pace. An ignernt mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Constantin

I'm not sure I agree...

...Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I don't think that approaching kids that don't show a propensity to go to college is the way to fill the ranks of the trades. Rather, I'd be looking for bright kids that are motivated to work, willing to learn, and which can think on their feet. To me, that fits a lot of college-bound kids.

One of my fathers friends sent his kid to work on the assembly line in a factory for one week after the kid got a bit uppity re: his educational horizons. Cleared that right up.

On the other hand, I completely agree with you that tradesmen/women with the skills will, on average, be able to command a premium. However, in addition to their trade skills, they'll also have to show an aptitude for other things like listening to customers, selling, accounting, etc. You know, the stuff we engineers euphemistically call the balance-of-plant.

While you may not need to go to college to accumulate knowledge outside what you learn for your trade, it is highly unlikely that you'll be successfull in the long run without using such knowledge. Where you get it (either through experience, college, etc.) is immaterial... but the earlier you are knowledgable about all aspects of your business, the sooner you'll succeed reliably.

Constantin

A slightly different perspective...

John, I hope for everyone that the HEF will be the energy-saving success you think it will be. I have no idea what the HEF is, and that's OK. I'll simply be happy if it works to see it out soon!

However, to say that you can do a better job than any engineer is a bit of an overstatement. Neither you or I will probably ever send men to the moon, nor will we ever be more qualified to do so than the fine folks that actually did. Similarly, I doubt that either of us will ever be teaching the folks at the US nuclear weapons research labs anything new about fission reactions. Etc.

On the other hand, I don't doubt for a moment that you could have developed a fantastic new appliance because of your insights into the processes that govern heating systems. For example, I really liked your spirovent/circulator patent a lot! As Albert Einstein put it "Imagination is more important than knowledge".

John Ruhnke

Never said that...............

Constantin,

I never said that. What I said was "my skills and knowledge is as valuable as any engineers, in some cases more valuable" I am saying that my skills and knowledge are better then some engineers out there. Some of my knowledge is very valuable. Some other engineers have valuable knowledge in other areas. Every good engineer has his area of specialty. In my area, I have valuable stuff better then some other engineers out there. Here on the wall we have some great engineers and technicians that I learn from everyday. Everyone has different tidbits of knowledge that is valuable. There are a lot of great engineers that have made some wonderful contributions. I admire a lot of great engineers. I am friends with a few great engineers. I never said I was better then all the great engineers. I just said I am better then some. Hopefully by the time my life ends people will consider my skills and knowledge just as valuable as some great engineers that I know. I will let other people decide if I am great. I have not yet done anything that I would truely consider worthy as of yet. I am working hard on it though.

Technology moves at such a rapid pace that if you want to learn the latest and best techniques, you need to learn them from the field. You need to learn from other great technicians and engineers. Most of the time, you won't find this knowledge in the classroom. The classroom can be ten years behind. Internet forums, trade shows, manufacturer technical help, Contractors and Engineers in the field, they have the knowledge. These are your best sources to learn from. This is what built this country. This is where this country has developed the technical advantage. This is the entreprenual spirit. This is the REAL EDUCATION.

John Ruhnke

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Constantin

John,

There is no doubt in my mind that you could easily do the work of most HVAC engineers out there. Your patent alone is a indication of how bright your are. Furthermore, there is no question that many inventions, ideas, etc. are first developed in the field, where a need is identified and then a solution is created to meet that need. This is part of the work I do every day. And, it is entirely possible that the classroom is ten years behind in many areas of study...

On the other hand, the fundamentals never go old. Thermodynamic laws don't change, neither do Newtons Laws (unless you're going faster than 0.7c), chemical reactions still go one way or the other, etc....College education is not just about accumulating knowledge... it's about learning how to learn, discovering what excites you, and going off and pursuing your dreams once you graduate. Some of us are better at figuring this out earlier than others, bypassing the need for a college education.

I still remember the day when Dean Nelson walked into our classroom and commenced his welcoming speech with something along the lines of: " Welcome to Tufts Engineering. I'm so glad to see so many of you here and I hope to see you graduate too. Just remember that even if you turn into professional engineers that you'll use about 5% of what we'll be teaching you for the next four years."

Coming back to the post I replied to, what rubbed me the wrong way was the following sentence: "...I call it discrimination because I can do as good a job or better then any engineer...." That's a pretty inclusive sentence... ;-)

All the best with the HEF, I hope to read about it soon! Remember, many great scientists were self-taught and still got letters, symbols, formulas, etc. named after after them. Then, students get to learn your knowledge in their textbooks. What better way to be immortalized?

John Ruhnke

What would you call it? Fair?

Most people think that a trades persons education is not as valuable as that of an engineer. Thousands of years man has been learning by the apprenticeship method. It has worked way back then and it works now. It is an excellent way to get an education. Ben Franklin, Thomas Edison, Bill Gates the Wright Bros. Are you just going to ignore there acheivments? You cannot force change on someone. You cannot force someone to go to college and get a degree. Just because it works best for most doesn't mean it works best for everyone. The world is not black and white. Some of the greatest discoveries were not born by great scolers. Einstein got C's in college. What he learned that made him so great came after college. Lets face it, How many people make college a minimum requirement? What happens to the briliant kid who just can't sit at a desk for 5 years straight? What do you do just throw away his talents? IT IS DISCRIMINATION to assume that because someone chose to get an education in another way other then college that it is not worth it to give him a job. Today college is a MINIMUM REQUIREMENT TO A GOOD JOB. That is flat out wrong!!!!!!!!! What happens to the great trades person that decides to move on to other choices. He can't. He is stuck. This is a huge problem. Luckly I am an entreprenuer. I can do what ever I want. What about Fred who works for me. He is a great mechanic. I will match his talents with any Engineer. What is he going to do. He wasn't very good in school. But he is extremely smart. What is he going to do?

Why don't we just continue to shove ridilin down these kids throats. Eventually they will come around. Maybe just chain them to a desk. I know we will make it impossible to do anything other then go to college. Make college a minimum requirement. After all they are just rebelious lazy or stupid to not go to college.

Some kids are born to build. Not born to fly a desk. WAKE UP AMERICA!!

JR

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John Ruhnke

God gave us talents....................

God gave each of us certain talents. We have strengths and weakness's. It is up to us to make the best out what we have. We are all differant. These differences are valuable to society. If everyone learned by the same method, same way it would be bad for America. Why? Looking at things from a different perspective is valuable. That is where the greatest inventions come from. We need educations from many different sources to cover all angles. Education from just one source will cause stagnation without change. Without change the country just stands still while every other country passes them by.

God designed some people to build. These people designed to build may not function well behind a desk. Why fource them to be there? Maybe ADD is a sign that the person is working at the wrong things in life? Do we give them ridilon or a hammer and tools? We have a huge deficit in good trades people because we ignore the "born to build" people in our education system. We do everything to discourage people from going that route. Some people "born to build" can also do well at a desk. They choose the desk because if they don't society will make them feel bad. Society makes it feel like the trades are beneath them. So very few smart people go into the trades. We need more smart people in the trades. We don't just need the dumb rebelious and lazy. We need some of the brightest minds in America in the trades. I don't know why things ended up this way but if things don't change, this country is in for serious trouble.

JR

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