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Major industry wide problem (SE)
S Ebels
Member Posts: 2,322
I have serious issues about the current state of the distribution chain in our industry. Specifically, distributors who are content just to push product across the counter. I'm not only talking about the fact that most sell to homeowners or other retail type customers. I'm talking about selling boilers, radiant heating supplies, controls etc. to any Tom, **** or Harry that comes in with a mechanical or boiler license. I don't know if they automatically assume that a licensed tradesman knows what he's doing or if they don't care. Some of the distributors around here seem to think that anyone can install a boiler with their guidance and help.
Well pahdna, that ain't the case!
Some method of screening an installer has to be initiated and implemented, especially for more complicated systems such as radiant or hydro-air or primary-secondary or....... basically anything but a standard zone valve system really. Anything beyond that seems past the capabilities of 80% of the installers out there. Or at least out here.
I'll give you a case and point.
I just got off the phone with a poor bloke about 120 miles from me. He called the manufacturer who got him in touch with the rep who contacted me. This is the factory rep, not a distributor rep. We talked for about an hour and the longer we talked the madder I became. He is the not so proud owner of a gypcrete radiant floor system in a 3 year old log home. Driving this system is Viessmann's finest, a Vitola. The materials used were all top drawer items including Grundfos and Viega. His system runs the kitchen at 80+* and the family/living room at 58-60, max. His upstairs bedrooms, carpeted, run 76-80*. His hardwood floor is now trashed. He has an 80 gallon Vitocell indirect that doesn't produce enough hot water to fill his bathtub. The DHW circulator pump is literally just plugged into an outlet and runs 24/7. I wasn't able to determine how exactly it was piped but obviously........
Manifolds are mislabled and tubing loops serving the same space are mixed on manifolds that go to a completely different area of the house. He told me his breeching pipe has 2" diameter holes rusted through it and the Vitola is vented into a standard, unlined chimney. The only thermostat that provides any indoor feedback to the Trimatik control is located adjacent to the refrigerator and freezer in the kitchen DUH! As near as I can tell over the phone, some of the 14mm tubing loops are over 500 feet long. He has a 6 loop manifold serving 2,800 sq ft. Do the math on that. The Viessmann chassis burner goes bang when it lights and has since new. He observed while the distributor guy and the plumber "adjusted" the burner. No gauges or instruments of any kind were used.
Now here are the things that really TICK ME OFF!
This guy, and I can't say as I blame him, has been telling everyone who asks or will listen that:
A. Radiant floor heat doesn't work, is extremely expensive to operate and he would never do it again in a million years.
B. Viessmann equipment is overpriced junk that no-one knows anything about and is flat out over-rated.
We know these are not true statements.
The distributor "designed" this job and supposedly did a heat loss on the structure. They also recommended the plumber who installed the mess. He happens to be a good sized customer of theirs. When problems began showing up they came to the job site and basically blew off the HO telling him that their guy was a "good plumber". Sadly and obviously this is not true.
Now the question. When are manufacturers going to start demanding that the people who install their products be sufficiently trained to handle the task. Do manufacturers load up their distributors so deep that they have to resort to a "whatever it takes, sell the job" philosphy?
As I see it, at least here in Michigan, the distributor is the problem. They gave/sent the job to an unqualified person on the basis that he was a "good customer" Not because he was qualified. Only the $$.$$ were talking.
Now radiant floor heating and Viessmann both have a black eye and who knows how many sales were lost because of this?
I'm ranting........, time to watch the Sox beat the mortal crap out of the Yanks!!!!
Well pahdna, that ain't the case!
Some method of screening an installer has to be initiated and implemented, especially for more complicated systems such as radiant or hydro-air or primary-secondary or....... basically anything but a standard zone valve system really. Anything beyond that seems past the capabilities of 80% of the installers out there. Or at least out here.
I'll give you a case and point.
I just got off the phone with a poor bloke about 120 miles from me. He called the manufacturer who got him in touch with the rep who contacted me. This is the factory rep, not a distributor rep. We talked for about an hour and the longer we talked the madder I became. He is the not so proud owner of a gypcrete radiant floor system in a 3 year old log home. Driving this system is Viessmann's finest, a Vitola. The materials used were all top drawer items including Grundfos and Viega. His system runs the kitchen at 80+* and the family/living room at 58-60, max. His upstairs bedrooms, carpeted, run 76-80*. His hardwood floor is now trashed. He has an 80 gallon Vitocell indirect that doesn't produce enough hot water to fill his bathtub. The DHW circulator pump is literally just plugged into an outlet and runs 24/7. I wasn't able to determine how exactly it was piped but obviously........
Manifolds are mislabled and tubing loops serving the same space are mixed on manifolds that go to a completely different area of the house. He told me his breeching pipe has 2" diameter holes rusted through it and the Vitola is vented into a standard, unlined chimney. The only thermostat that provides any indoor feedback to the Trimatik control is located adjacent to the refrigerator and freezer in the kitchen DUH! As near as I can tell over the phone, some of the 14mm tubing loops are over 500 feet long. He has a 6 loop manifold serving 2,800 sq ft. Do the math on that. The Viessmann chassis burner goes bang when it lights and has since new. He observed while the distributor guy and the plumber "adjusted" the burner. No gauges or instruments of any kind were used.
Now here are the things that really TICK ME OFF!
This guy, and I can't say as I blame him, has been telling everyone who asks or will listen that:
A. Radiant floor heat doesn't work, is extremely expensive to operate and he would never do it again in a million years.
B. Viessmann equipment is overpriced junk that no-one knows anything about and is flat out over-rated.
We know these are not true statements.
The distributor "designed" this job and supposedly did a heat loss on the structure. They also recommended the plumber who installed the mess. He happens to be a good sized customer of theirs. When problems began showing up they came to the job site and basically blew off the HO telling him that their guy was a "good plumber". Sadly and obviously this is not true.
Now the question. When are manufacturers going to start demanding that the people who install their products be sufficiently trained to handle the task. Do manufacturers load up their distributors so deep that they have to resort to a "whatever it takes, sell the job" philosphy?
As I see it, at least here in Michigan, the distributor is the problem. They gave/sent the job to an unqualified person on the basis that he was a "good customer" Not because he was qualified. Only the $$.$$ were talking.
Now radiant floor heating and Viessmann both have a black eye and who knows how many sales were lost because of this?
I'm ranting........, time to watch the Sox beat the mortal crap out of the Yanks!!!!
0
Comments
-
It gets worse
Here in the Commonwealth of MA, there is NOTHING to qualify a heating installer. Your grandmother could open a heating company today if she wished, and would probally get state contracts because she is a woman/owner. The only thing she would have to do is bring in a licensed person to do the fuel (oil or gas) and do the venting.
I disagree with one thing, you said that "sadly and obviously" this guy was not a good plumber. He may be a great plumber, that doesn't qualify him as a heating contractor. Many plumbers have the thought that they can install heat, because they know how to solder a joint, often, that is not true. They don't read the manuals, and dont install correctly. Most often when involved with radiant and high tech boilers. They want to install them like they installed 100's or perhaps 1000's of cast iron boilers. The homeowner suffers.
I am not saying that all plumbers do less than quality work, but a fair number do. It is my personal belief that they are "jumping trades" without being educated.
The other thing that bothers me, is that in residential construction here in MA. You dont have to submit a heat loss, to prove that the home will be heated properly, not under heated or over heated. The number of times I have seen good equipment, over sized and homes under heated, is unreal. The house is cold, the bills are high, and the homeowner is uncomfortable. Who gets the blame, usually not the contractor. The equipment is usually labeled at fault.
Then, you have supply houses that will sell to homeowners, the logic, "If we dont sell to them, they will just go to the big box stores". And dont forget the internet, where you can buy anything. Many homeowners, have the mindset, that they can install the tubing, with out any regard for length, and they can save money buy using a smaller maifold.
I see the situation you described, Steve, just way to often.
I dont mean this post as a broad swipe at plumbers or homeowners, many do a great job, just the ones who constatly do it wrong, dont read instructions, wont stand behind what they do, and give the industry a black eye.
Chuck0 -
There is no easy answer
Although we avidly support our entire product line; it is not our job to determine who is capable and who is not. That question is up to the local and state officials. We pride ourselves in offering on going training to all who wish to participate.0 -
consumer has some responsibility here as well
For something as important as a heating system in a cold climate, don't you think the homeowner has some responsibility here, too?
Like checking with other customers of the sub or contractor? I'm just finishing up a house with a DIY radiant floor that works fine (got educated here as well as other sites like this and also hired a consultant who did the heat loss calc and assisted in the design).
My point is the few subs I hired I found through direct referrals from friends and relatives who could atest to the quality ands timliness of thier work.0 -
Or - a well known and respected contractor - who has done hundreds of installs - makes a small mistake with major consequences. In this case a four way was piped incorrectly - overheating the main floor while the basement was on the cool side. Mr. contractor did not answer or respond to calls from the homeowner. It was plunked & piped into the home - no subsequent service. PO'd homeowner phones manufacturer and supplier (both had highly recommended the contractor) and complains - process takes two years - Is the customer happy yet? Not completely - but he's close to a small smile. Eventhough distance between the home and the contractor is an issue - a phone call to keep everyone in the loop would have been appropriate. The homeowner had done a lot of reading and homework re the orange and silver boilers - knew exactly what he wanted - had two heat loos calcs done - went the whole nine yards. So is the small mistake which soured the customer a similar situation? Too often radiant or hydronics and the boiler of your choice gets all the grief - with serious consequences for our industry. As the Viessmann tech out here - I am fortunate to see many boiler rooms - with a miriad of piping designs, control strategies, pumps, whistles and bells. Homeowners who are involved with their project, and contractors - tend to spec and install very good components - but fail to consider (with amazing regularity) how all these wonderful gadgets work together. For instance - brand A injection controls coupled with an Atola and Vitotronic control package - reduces the viessmann combo to an on/off control. Such a waste. This is a common oversight - by very well informed and educated homeowners - and fully supported by well intentioned contractors who also what to sell and install the "very best" components. (I'm in the last category) Education alone is not the key - our industry needs empowered and passionate advocates (like the folks that hang on the Wall)Our passion and even our raison d'etre form why we are in business - even the practises & craftsmanship we adhere to and hold in high regard need to be exalted everyday - not just when things screw up. (thanks for the opportunity to rant)0 -
the other shoe..
is a licensed plumber who has sucessfully installed baseboard for 20years without doing a heat loss or any engineering - does radiant, and screws it up for real, because radiant, is no where near as forgiving as baseboard or scorched air,
and the are DIYers, that are really good at reading dans and siggis books, and doing it right the first time why should the manufactures loose out on that customer that otherwise couldnt afford to upgrade the successful existence of sLOWES and HOME-DEsPOTs, proves my point
- there is enough work for all of us, and even better is, to fix what the DIY screws up, it usually involves emergency overtime yhee-haaa
- DIY-RESCUE would make a great reality show
and imagine how much you can get in cash, from the husband to hide his ineptness, and make him look good
- and if you single guys are real sweet to Do It Her selfers, who knows ..
0 -
maybe the reps / wholesalers
> I have serious issues about the current state of
> the distribution chain in our industry.
> Specifically, distributors who are content just
> to push product across the counter. I'm not only
> talking about the fact that most sell to
> homeowners or other retail type customers. I'm
> talking about selling boilers, radiant heating
> supplies, controls etc. to any Tom, **** or Harry
> that comes in with a mechanical or boiler
> license. I don't know if they automatically
> assume that a licensed tradesman knows what he's
> doing or if they don't care. Some of the
> distributors around here seem to think that
> anyone can install a boiler with their guidance
> and help.
>
> Well pahdna, that ain't the
> case!
>
> Some method of screening an installer
> has to be initiated and implemented, especially
> for more complicated systems such as radiant or
> hydro-air or primary-secondary or.......
> basically anything but a standard zone valve
> system really. Anything beyond that seems past
> the capabilities of 80% of the installers out
> there. Or at least out here.
>
> I'll give you a
> case and point.
>
> I just got off the phone with
> a poor bloke about 120 miles from me. He called
> the manufacturer who got him in touch with the
> rep who contacted me. This is the factory rep,
> not a distributor rep. We talked for about an
> hour and the longer we talked the madder I
> became. He is the not so proud owner of a
> gypcrete radiant floor system in a 3 year old log
> home. Driving this system is Viessmann's finest,
> a Vitola. The materials used were all top drawer
> items including Grundfos and Viega. His system
> runs the kitchen at 80+* and the family/living
> room at 58-60, max. His upstairs bedrooms,
> carpeted, run 76-80*. His hardwood floor is now
> trashed. He has an 80 gallon Vitocell indirect
> that doesn't produce enough hot water to fill his
> bathtub. The DHW circulator pump is literally
> just plugged into an outlet and runs 24/7. I
> wasn't able to determine how exactly it was piped
> but obviously........
>
> Manifolds are
> mislabled and tubing loops serving the same space
> are mixed on manifolds that go to a completely
> different area of the house. He told me his
> breeching pipe has 2" diameter holes rusted
> through it and the Vitola is vented into a
> standard, unlined chimney. The only thermostat
> that provides any indoor feedback to the Trimatik
> control is located adjacent to the refrigerator
> and freezer in the kitchen DUH! As near as I can
> tell over the phone, some of the 14mm tubing
> loops are over 500 feet long. He has a 6 loop
> manifold serving 2,800 sq ft. Do the math on
> that. The Viessmann chassis burner goes bang when
> it lights and has since new. He observed while
> the distributor guy and the plumber "adjusted"
> the burner. No gauges or instruments of any kind
> were used.
>
> Now here are the things that really
> TICK ME OFF!
>
> This guy, and I can't say as I
> blame him, has been telling everyone who asks or
> will listen that:
>
> A. Radiant floor heat
> doesn't work, is extremely expensive to operate
> and he would never do it again in a million
> years.
>
> B. Viessmann equipment is overpriced
> junk that no-one knows anything about and is flat
> out over-rated.
>
> We know these are not true
> statements.
>
> The distributor "designed" this
> job and supposedly did a heat loss on the
> structure. They also recommended the plumber who
> installed the mess. He happens to be a good sized
> customer of theirs. When problems began showing
> up they came to the job site and basically blew
> off the HO telling him that their guy was a "good
> plumber". Sadly and obviously this is not true.
> Now the question. When are manufacturers going to
> start demanding that the people who install their
> products be sufficiently trained to handle the
> task. Do manufacturers load up their distributors
> so deep that they have to resort to a "whatever
> it takes, sell the job" philosphy?
>
> As I see
> it, at least here in Michigan, the distributor is
> the problem. They gave/sent the job to an
> unqualified person on the basis that he was a
> "good customer" Not because he was qualified.
> Only the $$.$$ were talking.
>
> Now radiant
> floor heating and Viessmann both have a black eye
> and who knows how many sales were lost because of
> this?
>
> I'm ranting........, time to watch the
> Sox beat the mortal crap out of the Yanks!!!!
0 -
maybe the reps / wholesalers
should stick to doing there job, and let the mechanical contractor design the system. they never accept any liability. this stuff happens all the time. we go repair or replace systems like this probably 1/2 dozen times a year, and these are only what we hear about. if the mech. contractor cant figure out how to design it they should stick to something else. marc0 -
Perhaps you are asking for the impossible...
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for qualifying someone before they get to install sophisticated equipment. In fact, I wish the heating and cooling trades were required to do a holistic assessment of homes instead of working on only one aspect of heating and cooling them. Then, after a home has been retrofitted, someone should follow-up and ensure that the installation was done right.
The only way for a manufacturer to ensure that only qualified installers get their hands on the equipment is to bypass the traditional distribution channels altogether and only ship direct. But if you go this route, when would you like to sell your first unit? Which heating professional wants the trouble, time, expense, etc. of having to call up the mothership every time he/she needs a part?
What about service parts? Which distribution channels are you going to convince to keep emergency parts on hand after you have disintermediated them by selling directly to the contractor? Furthermore, while it has become a lot easier to go direct, most installers still value the ability to pick up spare parts at a counter instead of waiting for them in the mail. So let's assume the Dell model is off the table then.
If we're going to look at the traditional distribution channels, I see two large trunks, wholesalers and big box. Now, we know we can't sell anything to the Big Box stores because that's only going to aggravate the hack install problem. That leaves wholesalers, which must be properly incentivized to sell units only to the people that they ought to be selling units to. So, what kind of a carrot and stick can one offer in a fairly competitive market?
At the end of the day, it is very difficult for a manufacturer to ensure those that buy from their distribution channel are qualified to install equipment. In many states, it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of anything but a pipefitters/plumbers/HVAC license, if that. The only way I can think of is watching the warranty calls on equipment by serial number and cutting off the distributors that sell to anyone and thus cause a lot of warranty problems.
However, how often do the warranty issues actually arrive at the manufacturer? I'll bet you a drink that more often than not, the installer and the distributor are going to keep a problem as local as they possibly can. Furthermore, the best feedback, (i.e. feedback from the actual end user) often eludes the manufacturers in problem cases... because if the installer cannot be bothered to read the instructions, you can be sure that he/she will "lose" the warranty/contact information as well.
From an enforcement point of view, I do not understand why the feds do not mandate and inspect for minimum building standards. Putting the pink panther into the walls is nice but wholly ineffective if infiltration has not been addressed first, etc. The only way for builders to stop building sloppy buildings is to stop their projects until they properly address the issues. Building an airtight/well-insulated building does not necessarily cost more money, it just requires more care.
But when we get down to enforcement, a number of contractors here have raised issues in the past. From my position in the peanut gallery, it appears to me that the quality and professionalism inspectors is quite uneven. Thus, unless we increase the quality of inspectors along with building standards, we're going to have a lot of trouble with false positives...0 -
\"DIY Rescue\"
Would be a fun show--most particularly if it also included the DIYers who rescue things screwed up by "professional" hacks. With old gravity, steam and vapor systems the evidence presented here shows a pretty good balance between the "real" heroes.
Every coin has two sides.0 -
Sooo
Did you convice him the equipment is not the problem???? just tell him ," It would be like asking Mercedes to send you all the parts and asking Bubba at the corner garrage to biuld the car for you."
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Getting warm now Constantin
"The only way for a manufacturer to ensure that only qualified installers get their hands on the equipment is to bypass the traditional distribution channels altogether and only ship direct."
I come from a hardware store background and maybe that has colored my thinking or at least enabled me to think outside the traditional chain of supply box. When I was managing the store and I needed an order of Mueller fittings or Zoeller pumps or State water heaters I merely called or faxed an order directly to the manufacturer. It was as simple as that. They loaded it on a truck and paid the freight if my order quantity was where it needed to be. The billing was passed through our dealer owned hardware company and showed up on our monthly invoice from them with only 2% added for their handling and overhead.
This works beautifully. The manufacturer gets exposed to thousands of customers, is able to directly communicate with the people who are out where the rubber meets the road, and gets their product in places it isn't normally seen.
They were also able to dictate what was required for an opening order as far as quantity and variety of product were concerned. Some of the companies demanded that repair parts for their product were purchased and an inventory maintained in order to do business with them.
I can't see any reason why a similar situation couldn't exist in the heating trades. As you stated above, it would give manufacturers total control over who gets their product. It would also force a lot of us (contractors) to become better businessmen. We would have to become businesses that manage inventory of whole goods, repair parts and installation supplies. This is a far cry from one guy and a helper in a pickup, which is the type that did the above install. I can't see that as being a bad thing for our industry.
Now........ in a nutshell what would happen is that the dealer/contractor would have to shoulder some of the responsibilty and tasks of a distributor and so would the manufacturer. The contractor would inventory a sufficient stock of parts and whole goods, staff his/her business to handle the additional overhead, adjust his/her margins accordingly and get on with life. He/she would also have to learn to do heat loss calcs and system design, which is as it should be anyhow.
The manufacturer gets to select, on a basis of solvency and competence, who they do business with and thereby control their product and market a fair bit better than it is now. They would have to gear towards shipping 1 or 6 or a dozen boilers at a time instead of a truckload but what's the big deal with that? In this day and age of Visa, automatic funds transfer, Fed-Ex freight and overnight UPS I don't see that as much of an impediment. They would also have to add technical staff to field calls from their dealers who are now dead-ended at the distributor for the most part. As far as dispensing service and technical updates, has anyone here heard of e-mail? How tough can that be?
I have yet to receive my first technical bulletin from any distributor. It's always, "Oh, it seems like we had a service bulliten come in from XYZ furnace company on that. Let me see if I can find it".
To me the distribution chain as it stands today is archaic and obsolete. Does anyone here think that such a supply chain would work for Lowe's or HD? How do you think they get their overhead numbers so low?
When my great grand-dad started our hardware business there were 9 hardware stores within a 5 mile radius of our town. Each carried a little bit of this and that. One by one, he, then gramps, then my dad bought them all out. They changed our business with the times, The ones that folded were the ones that kept on buying their merchandise the way they always had. Something along that order has to happen in this industry too.
Call me a P&H heretic if you want but things in this industry have to change. From my point of view, a huge amount of resources and $$.$$ are wasted on needless duplication of tasks. Virtually nothing else, no other line of goods save commercial electrical items are distributed in this way anymore. Shouldn't that be some sort of a sign?
None of the supply houses around my area do anything more for me than stock pieces and parts. I don't rely on them for knowledge or expertise, (nor should anyone else with a functioning brain) The scenario detailed in my first post is a classic example of of what goes wrong when a contractor doesn't know his stuff, a distributor thinks they are the main link in the chain and a manufacturer doesn't screen the end user of their product.
I have get back to a system design now. My second rant is done.0 -
Another twist
How about this -- your distributor is a good person who knows the product and who knows the good installers. He leaves the biz and now a greenhorn comes in and totally mucks up the relationship between you and him -- and costs you potential business. Sound familiar? What do you do -- spread the wealth and not put all of your eggs in one distributor's basket?0 -
Dave
"Although we avidly support our entire product line; it is not our job to determine who is capable and who is not."
I hear what you're saying but I respectfully disagree. I think manufacturers of high quality products like Buderus would be eager to make certain their products are used and installed as designed. I think that many manufacturers have abdicated (dumped off) that responsibility on distributors. Most (not all, but most) distributors completely neglect to keep their customers informed. Maybe an open house beer bash or new product intro....... but training? Training should be mandatory in order to buy a given product when misapplication of that product can damage or destroy property and cause injury or death of the end user.
Many states or localities have no code officials or licensing requirements. Nor do they have organizations that assume the responsibility of determining competence or correctness of installation. Fact is, many that do have inspections, are a joke. In the scenario described in my first post, the mechanical inspector was the contractors brother-in-law! So much for inspections.
One of my points is that no-one, or at least the not the people who should, currently take responsibiltty for the training and education of the installers of their product.
0 -
Homeowner Due Diligence
This thread seems applicable to the situation I am in.
I have been looking for a contractor to install a demand water heater and replacment boiler for a one-pipe steam system. I found one plumber on the demand water heater mfr's web page who is one of their recommended installers. He offered also to do the steam boiler and the upgrade on gas that would be needed for the demand water heater. He is not listed as one of the Burham home heating team on their website, but I had read Dan's book on steam heat and he seemed to answer most of the questions in line with the book--which is better than a lot of plumbers I talked to. Also on the plus side, he generally arrived at appointments when he said he would and generally to retun call promply. On these last three items--that is something I have not found in the majorioty of plumbers I talked to. This decision will not be affected by price--his price was about in the middle of the quotes I have.
Unfortunately, he says most of his jobs are as a subcontractor so he can't give me homeowner references easily. I asked to talk to some of the general contractors he works with but he has yet to get those references for me. The county confirms he is a licensed master plumber and they have no record of complaints against him. I contacted Burnham and they said they have no recollections of experience with him good or bad. But I contacted Burnham's distributor in the area who says he should be on their home heating team list and that list on the web site is not up-to-date and finally that they would recommend him to install their father's steam boiler. This made me feel more comfortable and since I want to sign up the contract quickly, I had planned to drop the request for references.
Aside from the references, I'm don't know of anything else I can do to check out whether this guy is a capable installer. Does this sound like an acceptable level of diligence to hire this contractor, or is there something more I should/can do?0 -
Problems
Hello Mr. Ebels
I agree, while my background is different ( all process/
industrial ), I see the same thing in my work ( or lack
thereof )
I don't have an answer either, just the observation that
this same issue is present across all trades and
professions.
Heck, I'm just young dinosaur, started in the trades after
the service, apprenticeship/trade school, many years as
a journeyman, got license ( by exam ) went to night school
while working full time, got degree, another license and
never got away from "twisting wrenches" in 28 years.
Can you imagine dealing with what you describe in a power
plant, refinery, chemical plant, water/wastewater, food or pharmaceutical plant, I can.
Someone referred to this problem as"cognitive dissonance",
meaning simply folks don't know their a$$ from a hole in
the ground, grab the money and run.
If it may make you feel better your comments in the thread
http://forums.invision.net/Index.cfm?CFApp=2&Message_ID=92970
under "we do both" I consider to be a benchmark of "good
design and trade practice, liked it so much put it in a
word doc..
Stick to your guns
regards, don0 -
Problems
Hello Mr. Ebels
I agree, while my background is different ( all process/
industrial ), I see the same thing in my work ( or lack
thereof )
I don't have an answer either, just the observation that
this same issue is present across all trades and
professions.
Heck, I'm just young dinosaur, started in the trades after
the service, apprenticeship/trade school, many years as
a journeyman, got license ( by exam ) went to night school
while working full time, got degree, another license and
never got away from "twisting wrenches" in 28 years.
Can you imagine dealing with what you describe in a power
plant, refinery, chemical plant, water/wastewater, food or pharmaceutical plant, I can.
Someone referred to this problem as"cognitive dissonance",
meaning simply folks don't know their a$$ from a hole in
the ground, grab the money and run.
If it may make you feel better your comments in the thread
http://forums.invision.net/Index.cfm?CFApp=2&Message_ID=92970
under "we do both" I consider to be a benchmark of "good
design and trade practice, liked it so much put it in a
word doc..
Stick to your guns
regards, don0 -
Problems
Hello Mr. Ebels
I agree, while my background is different ( all process/
industrial ), I see the same thing in my work ( or lack
thereof )
I don't have an answer either, just the observation that
this same issue is present across all trades, professions
and society in general. ( in varied forms )
Heck, I'm just young dinosaur, started in the trades after
the service, apprenticeship/trade school, many years as
a journeyman, got license ( by exam ) went to night school
while working full time, got degree, another license and
never got away from "twisting wrenches" in 28 years and
still learning every day. ( so what do I know? )
Can you imagine dealing with what you describe in a power
plant, refinery, chemical plant, water/wastewater, food or pharmaceutical plant? I do. ( tain't purdy )
Someone referred to this problem as"cognitive dissonance",
meaning simply folks don't know their a$$ from a hole in
the ground, grab the money and run.
If it may make you feel better your comments in the thread
http://forums.invision.net/Index.cfm?CFApp=2&Message_ID=92970
under "we do both" I consider to be a benchmark of "good
design and trade practices, liked it so much put it in a
word doc., no I'm not trying to "butter you up", I just
recognize good work when I see it.
Stick to your guns
regards, don0 -
Problems
Hello Mr. Ebels
I agree, while my background is different ( all process/
industrial ), I see the same thing in my work ( or lack
thereof )
I don't have an answer either, just the observation that
this same issue is present across all trades, professions
and society in general. ( in varied forms )
Heck, I'm just young dinosaur, started in the trades after
the service, apprenticeship/trade school, many years as
a journeyman, got license ( by exam ) went to night school
while working full time, got degree, another license and
never got away from "twisting wrenches" in 28 years and
still learning every day. ( so what do I know? )
Can you imagine dealing with what you describe in a power
plant, refinery, chemical plant, water/wastewater, food or pharmaceutical plant? I do. ( tain't purdy )
Someone referred to this problem as "cognitive dissonance",
meaning simply folks don't know their a$$ from a hole in
the ground, grab the money and run.
If it may make you feel better your comments in the thread
http://forums.invision.net/Index.cfm?CFApp=2&Message_ID=92970
under "we do both" I consider to be a benchmark of "good
design and trade practices, liked it so much put it in a
word doc., no I'm not trying to "butter you up", I just
recognize good work when I see it.
Stick to your guns
regards, don0 -
Your 2nd Rant Pretty Well Explains Your 1st
Put yourself in the shoes of the distributor who isn't looking at the world through blinders and you'll understand why they're doing what they're doing...
Then put yourself in the shoes of the poor homeowner (perhaps a fine DIYer) who owns a fine old hydronic system in an area where forced air rules. Such is the very DEFINITION of frustration if they're trying to find a knowledgeable contractor for mere maintenance and review--let alone any changes.
Then put yourself in the shoes of the poor homeowner who wants to update their old system with state-of-the-art controls and equipment in the simplest possible manner. Now imagine that reps, company techs., distributors and engineers alike are telling this person that something is required--and that this poor homeowner most sincerely believes this "something" is not only unnecessary but INEFFICIENT in this particular system. Only when he gives the numbers to PROVE it do the general agreements seem to begin...
While the final part of that story might be uncommon, I assure you that the beginning is not!0 -
Wouldn't it be easier
If the plumber could show you a certificate of training from Burnham specific to your needs, (steam), would that make you feel more comfortable as to whether he was technically proficient?0 -
Yes that would be great if such a thing existed. I was hoping that the distributor's recommendation amounted to the same thing until I read this thread.0 -
Jay,
I train many people on our product line (Munchkin Boilers). Once they have attended the training, they are eligible to be called "certified" contractors. This by no means should be mistaken for product expert. In our case, it means, that they have taken an interest, give their time, and were willing to learn and recived the tools and information (written and oral) to do the job well, if they choose to put forth the effort. As a Technical Service Rep, and also a licensed plumber, and holder of many certifications, I will say that I learn each and every day. I keep an open mind to what is going on around me. I listen to contractors, homeowners, distributers, wholesalers, anyone and everyone that calls. I usually take something away from each conversation, that enriches my ability to do my job.
However, having said that, I am firmly convinced, that some of the people that show up for our training, and get "certified" really just showed up for the free dognuts and coffee. So, someone may be certified, but that does not mean they are competent to do the job right the first time. Nor does it speak of their ethics or character. I think, I would still trust the wholesaler, and local referances. With a leaning to the local referance.
Chuck Shaw0 -
Thansk for the input, Chuck.0 -
No question, Direct Sales has advantages...
... but it would require many installers to rethink their business model.
I agree with you that the more organized installers will prosper for two reasons. For one, the cut that currently goes to the supply house can be split to allow the manufacturer to increase their shipping costs while also leaving some money to the installer to cover inventory costs. Secondly, it offers the organized installer a great way to ensure that everything he/she needs for a particular job will arrive in a neat package.
Direct sales will happen at some point because it's simply a matter of time before the manufacturers take a good look at their distribution costs, callback costs, etc. and conclude that the gamble is worthwhile. But also consider the very real risks of alienating the wholesaler supply chain. You'll never have them stock your products again if they have any alternatives and you better have a vast horde of rabid fans who are willing to forgo the traditional supply chain and try something new. In other words, such a clean break is not for everyone, only the top brands may be able to sustain something like that.
I also agree that it never has been been easier to have contractors bypass reps, distributors, etc. and go directly to the mothership. This is great for several reasons. For one, it probably increases the quality of answers to questions immensely. It also allows a manufacturer to precisely track where people are having problems on installs and adjust their training accordingly.
As a manufacturer, you could distinguish your brand simply by helping folks with heat loss calcs, system diagrams, and the like. However, someone, somewhere, will have to pick up the tab for all that. Perhaps contractors would be happy to have someone else do diagrams for them... even if they weren't at the jobsite like the contractor is every day.
Furthermore, it's easier than ever to pass information, place an order, etc. even if you're in the field. However, how many old-school plumbers do you know that enjoy educating themselves re: plumbing/heating/etc. on the internet? Of those that remain, how many could you see with a laptop in the field, placing orders? Maybe one would want to target the early adopters, but your market share will likely pay a hefty price until the market catches up...
So, going direct with strings attached can be tricky indeed. How many contractors want to take time off to actually learn your product (and, if possible, the basics of the business) before they get to install your boilers? Never mind the reluctance of some to share sensitive financial data, the lack of working capital for those that are starting out, etc..
In other words, you severly limit your market growth opportunities if your installer qualification requirements are significantly tougher to meet than those of the next manufacturer. Considering the diminutive size of the US hydronics market to start with... Lastly, one could always use the Lennox approach and simply buy a "qualified" distribution channel... why stop at the wholesaler, why not control the whole end-user experience?0 -
True
and I bet he got the "best" price! Mad Dog
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
I agree with Steve
I believe this is rings true even more with the newer products that are on the market. We alknow how forgiving hydronics can be, but with the newer condensing equipment and readiant that forgivness is decreasing.
I am not sure if the resposibility lies with the wholesaler but at some point a compentance licencing has to take place. A wholesaler cannot just sell to anyone. I have had the conversation with one of my suppliers. These products cannot be sold to anyone with the " I can walk you thru it " mentalitiy.
Chucks right also a free coffee and dougnut seminar with some slids dos'nt make some one competant.
But it may come down to the manufacturer. It is their porduct that will be blamed, thier product that will told "do's not work" and more worrisome their product that will Kill Someone ! You think the lawyers wil stop with " Installer error " ? Hah !
Steve you bring up a very valid point. Whether something is done or not is the big question.
"it is not our job to determine who is capable and who is not." HHmmm sounds like the same thing the Bartenders use to say. Just wait Dave, the lawyers will be at your door also. Wholsalers MUST get on board with the idea that the newer equipment is NOT Your Fathers Boiler !
Scott
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Certifications
Mandatory certifications,inspections and enforcement are the only way to regulate and monitor our industry. While the equipment we use is getting more complex the enforcment is getting slashed and burned. Only true industry professionals can correct this problem through efforts that require more than lip service.
We need to self police the industry and yes get involved by establishing ways to scrutinize those who taint our industry. The current trend toward less regulation and bottom line mentality has chased many to take shortcuts and bypass training/rules and ethics.
Would love to see see something like a trade and inspection consortium that deals with minimum stndards that must be obtained before plumbing and heating concerns can legally operate.
We need leaders to step forward , structure and create interest in an industry watchdog group.
How does " Code, Ethics and Industry Standards Alliance" sound?????
While this may be wishful thinking I feel we have reached a point where something like this is necessary to maintain the integrity of our industry!
MP 19690 -
Liability
Heres my question-Liability? Why are the wholesaler and manufacturers rep not liable for their designs? When I design and install a system I accept all liability. When the local wholesaler designs a "just staple tube under the floor job" and it doesn't come close to working they just sell the fellow more stuff. The poor uninformed contractor or HO just eats it. IT MAKES ME SICK. Oh but they were cheaper and they wouldn't have told me it would work if it doesn't. We are fixing a large job where the rep even provided heat loss and design printouts. So impressed were the owners that they bought it while saving $10,000 of my design. Four years later I'm back and the rep won't even talk to the people living in 50-60 deg. temps.
0 -
Increased governmental rules and regulations almost always encourage "cheating". Some who are completely competent will hate this as only causing hassle and expense. The hacks will still continue--they'll probably just get even worse as designs become less forgiving.
A CONSUMER-DRIVEN model seem preferable. Think some sort of menu of systems all certified to be an appropriate use and application of the given materials/equipment. Hydronics is already rather expensive, but I honestly believe that many consumers would be willing to pay a bit more to be quite well assured that they are getting a good system the FIRST time. Should such become popular consumers begin to demand this certification, manufacturers should be willing to provide training to get their place in the menu.
With such a small (and in many areas shrinking) market share, getting the necessary $$$ to begin will be exceptionally difficult.
BUT, if something is done it becomes a choice to you--do you want the government to tell you what to do and how to do it or do you want guidelines for certification that come from your peers?0 -
Ask your plumber
for the adresses of some houses where he installed the heating system. If he is honest you'll get some. Then go knock on the doors and ask if they are satisfied. If he can't remember any addresses then forget him.
David0 -
Hey, that's a great idea...
...now how do we implement it? The reason I ask is because I look at the RPA and see an organization that ostensibly is dedicated towards the spread of radiant heating, yet does not have the will to draw the line at open systems, staple-up installs without plates in drafty homes, etc. Some members in the RPA are allowed to hurt the very organization they belong to. Bizzarre!
Having a certification is, potentially, a powerful sales tool. Certify installers, require them to submit to feedback from consumers0 -
Steve, I feel your pain
Here in the great Empire state of New York, the only qualifications needed to be a heating "professional" are a crescent wrench and a screwdriver. We never use a supplier to do ANY design work. That is part of my job as a contractor. There will always be hackers out there, but they will get fewer. They will be self-weeded out due to the demands that new complex technology will place upon their walnuts.
It is a great time to be in the heating trade. The fuel prices will drive people to invest in much more efficient systems. Systems that most people here on the WALL like to design and build. Systems that will cost much more up front but will cost much less to operate. Cost of operation is the true cost of any kind of equipment.
Some of the exchange of bogus information that I have witnessed between contractors and homeowners or between contractors themselves, it is no wonder so many people are confused. I was even sitting in on a seminar at ISH and a well known contractor/speaker is telling us on one hand it is important to install a humidifier for comfort then turns around and says that these new houses are so tight that a HRV is needed to control humidity. These are conflicting statements if you understand building sciences. I do not neccessarily feel gov't involvement is the answer to bring every contractor up to the speed they need to be at. I think that as always the marketplace will be the big motivator and judge for all.
It was nice to bump into you at ISH, wish we had more time to talk. While it does get frustrating at times, the future is bright. The quality of work you provide in your area will force others to adapt or go the way of the dinosaur.
Darin0 -
Whose problem is it?
Looking at it from a manufacturer's perspective, I can acknowlwedge the problem. I don't believe it's only a distibutor problem. The manufactures, reps, contractors and local authorities all share some resonsibility.
Our Industry has a very "loose" distribution channel.
Our distributors and contracors on the whole have very little general and product specific training. Home owners have not been sold on the benifits of a professionally installed Hydronic system. Local authorities often do not enforce regulations or inspect installations.
At the end of the day it always comes back to money. The consumer wants to save some. Wholesale distribution is measured on volume not on how many sales are made to "qualified" installers. And if manufacturers limited sales to factory traine distribution and contractors they would soomn go bankrupt.
At the end, seeing its an industry problem, the industry must change it.
To me, if we began by creating a consumer awarness campaign about the benifits of a professionally installed
hydronic system we could make a significant difference.
This could be funded by concerened manufacturers. The question then becomes will all you professionals out there support these manufacturers by buying their product.
Maybe we've got an other great topic for Wetstock.
0 -
Thanks Darin
I want to be clear that I am not advocating ANY gov't involvement. What have you ever seen state or federal Gov't run that hasn't turned into garbage? Talk about overhead!!!
I guess my initial post carries two thoughts which may not have been to clear since I was slightly agitated to say the least whilst writing.
Number one thought is that I think the distribution chain is outdated, serves little purpose and should be updated/abandoned/replaced. Or some combination of those words. Maybe some of you have good distributors that actually work to help a contractor learn, stay up to date and provide a service other than putting products on their shelves. I haven't found one yet anywhere in Mich.
Number two is that the installation knowledge has to be in the hands of the installer. Not in a file cabinet or someones head at a distributor or factory. There has to be a better way in this day and age of getting needed info out where it belongs. When I have a question I don't even bother to call anyone other than the manufacturer. The Rep group for Viessmann is helpful but the distributors........Let's just say ........NOT!!
Same with Buderus. Same with Burnham. Same with ..........
you fill in the blank.
I was told by a distributor that a Vitodens would do just fine on a 180-200* system. Right!!
I was told by a distributor that a Munchkin will work with any amount of flow going through it and all you needed was a 007 to run a whole system. This was on a 140!!
I have seen just as many systems "designed" by distributors that absolutely SUCK as I have systems that were messed up by hacks or homeowners.
We as contractors have to take the bull by the horns and learn what needs to be learned, do what needs to be done and take the responsibilty of designing/installing good systems upon ourselves. It's painfully obvious that no-one else is going to do it for us.
If we don't, what useful purpose do we serve other than turning wrenches??0 -
Bill, I agree;
100% with where your coming from, let me leave out
my industry and relate my own recent heating related
experience, having said that, realize that my choices
were influenced by industry background.
All mfg's and local code spec's were met or exceeded.
Ref. mech code, asme, ansi, aga, nfpa, fm, ul.,hartford nfpa/aga venting and some old iri stuff.
Hence I guess I'm an "easy sell", going back up the
food chain each respective participant is, IMO,
responsible for their own training and education.
( Dan has just proposed a good solution in another
thread )
So that brings us back full circle, it comes down
to economics yes, yet we all have to deal with folks
of different levels of background and exposure.
This is were it becomes difficult, an example would
be me specifing say 6 VLT ( Danfoss ) drives for a
project, the larger local mech's, distributor
0 -
BilI, I agree..
100% with your point of view, the most relevant
point being "awareness".
Folks have different levels of awareness and
different perceptions of "value". ( another problem )
This is true to a greater or lesser extent at all levels
of the "food chain", so to speak.
Here in my locale hydronic retrofits / installs are still
in the "boutique stage", mainly only high end and high
dollar.
This points a finger at no one is particular, it simply
"is what it is".
My particular take on the hydronics market today is that
there exists a good, better, best approach to providing
a budget, mid grade or high end solution to anyone.
There are enough choices for the consumer, contractor,
rep. to fill any level of need.
Once the awareness level has been raised things may start
to change.
Type in my zip ( 60660 ) in "find a pro" and see what
you get, for a city this size with the existing base
of steam and hot water it doesn't make any sense.
There are good people here, they just need to get the
word out.
Regards, don0 -
BilI, I agree..
100% with your point of view, the most relevant
point being "awareness".
Folks have different levels of awareness and
different perceptions of "value". ( another problem )
This is true to a greater or lesser extent at all levels
of the "food chain", so to speak.
Here in my locale hydronic retrofits / installs are still
in the "boutique stage", mainly only high end and high
dollar.
This points a finger at no one is particular, it simply
"is what it is".
My particular take on the hydronics market today is that
there exists a good, better, best approach to providing
a budget, mid grade or high end solution to anyone.
There are enough choices for the consumer, contractor,
rep. to fill any level of need.
Once the awareness level has been raised things may start
to change.
Type in my zip ( 60660 ) in "find a pro" and see what
you get, for a city this size with the existing base
of steam and hot water it doesn't make any sense.
There are good people here, at every level of the process, they just need to get the word out, this I believe would
drive the "quality level" up and the "knuckleheads" out.
Regards, don0 -
adding to your post
0 -
adding to your post It's a system
Steve,
I read your rant (not meant as a dig) with great deal of head nodding. I'll add my rant to this thread. I also realize I'm preaching to the choir, but have to say it anyway.
My experience of the problem is that the manufacturers on the whole sell boxes. The more boxes they ship, the more they make and the happier everyone is in the entire food chain. That is except for the end customer who often ends up with a substandard installation and a poorly heated house.
Darin said that the wholesalers should get out of the design busienss, but IMO that's the tip of the iceberg. How do we train the majority of people who provide heat and air conditioning in the US to build systems rather than install boxes? How do we get the wholesalers and distributors to drive the systems view out to the contractors rather than push boxes?
Until we can educate people to stop looking for plumbers who replace boilers or knockers who put in furnaces, the status quo will remain. It's a pain for those who do educate themselves to find capable people. It's worse for those who don't.
I have one thought that may make some of this change, but it's hard to tell if it's just wishful thinking. People always want the most for the least. I'm not sure if it really works, but there are those who argue that getting your house energy star rated through HERS can show defined value for the house. You can get mortgage lenders to increase the appraised value of the house with the HERS documentation. With this, you may be able to address the "we're moving in 2 years" rationale for doing it the cheapest.
If we could get the HERS system to emphasize and benefit from a solid systems approach, that would be a huge plus. The general rule of thumb being used is that $1 of reduced annual fuel cost is worth around $20 of home value to the appraisers. If you would get a couple hundred extra dollars in resale value, maybe that outdoor reset would make more sense. A $1000 difference for a condensing boiler would be offset if there was a $50-100/year offset in the annual energy costs. The key is the HERS certification. If HERS isn't the answer, maybe there could be something that would be.
The next challange would be to give property value for well maintained systems, but let's work on one windmill at a time.
jerry
0 -
Physics and Engineering
> Steve,
>
> I read your rant (not meant as a dig)
> with great deal of head nodding. I'll add my rant
> to this thread. I also realize I'm preaching to
> the choir, but have to say it anyway.
>
> My
> experience of the problem is that the
> manufacturers on the whole sell boxes. The more
> boxes they ship, the more they make and the
> happier everyone is in the entire food chain.
> That is except for the end customer who often
> ends up with a substandard installation and a
> poorly heated house.
>
> Darin said that the
> wholesalers should get out of the design
> busienss, but IMO that's the tip of the iceberg.
> How do we train the majority of people who
> provide heat and air conditioning in the US to
> build systems rather than install boxes? How do
> we get the wholesalers and distributors to drive
> the systems view out to the contractors rather
> than push boxes?
>
> Until we can educate people
> to stop looking for plumbers who replace boilers
> or knockers who put in furnaces, the status quo
> will remain. It's a pain for those who do educate
> themselves to find capable people. It's worse for
> those who don't.
>
> I have one thought that may
> make some of this change, but it's hard to tell
> if it's just wishful thinking. People always want
> the most for the least. I'm not sure if it really
> works, but there are those who argue that getting
> your house energy star rated through HERS can
> show defined value for the house. You can get
> mortgage lenders to increase the appraised value
> of the house with the HERS documentation. With
> this, you may be able to address the "we're
> moving in 2 years" rationale for doing it the
> cheapest.
>
> If we could get the HERS system to
> emphasize and benefit from a solid systems
> approach, that would be a huge plus. The general
> rule of thumb being used is that $1 of reduced
> annual fuel cost is worth around $20 of home
> value to the appraisers. If you would get a
> couple hundred extra dollars in resale value,
> maybe that outdoor reset would make more sense. A
> $1000 difference for a condensing boiler would be
> offset if there was a $50-100/year offset in the
> annual energy costs. The key is the HERS
> certification. If HERS isn't the answer, maybe
> there could be something that would be.
>
> The
> next challange would be to give property value
> for well maintained systems, but let's work on
> one windmill at a time.
>
> jerry
0
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