Sick of seeing threads about Munchkin Problems

Unknown

does no good for any of us in the heating profession. It surely gives the impression to folks who come here expecting professionalism a bad feeling about our trade.

We have had problems with equipment of all kinds for most of the 40+ years I have been in the business. I for one however have never found that saying they "suck" gets any kind of good results or develops the kind of professional discussion we need to have.

I find that rather than say something "sucks" it is my burden to find a solution for the problems and perhaps help that particular manufacturer to improve their product. I have great respect for you but I feel that comment is out of order. I also surely love you brother.

Unknown

This is bad for us. IMO

Even MORE Munchkin problems?

The M------- boiler sounds just so temporary. Even It's name sounds like a joke even though I've tried putting them in for some lower cost (budget) installations. I didn't take pictures & post here any of these jobs because; like I said, I'm not too proud of these temporary boilers.

This is the FIRST time I've treaded out here on the thin ice of Munchkinland. I've had one heck of a week explaining systems and differences.

I'll make my own decision when I go on the HTP factory bus tour @ Wetstock in RI. however, It's really hard to comprehend the fact that there are so many threads here on The Wall about "Munchkin Problems". Monitor MZ problems? Nope. Baxi problems? Nope. Takagi problems? Nope. Check it out for yourself on the search button here. Why is the Munchkin so problematic? The technology is not at all that new.

How many times have you read the words: Munchkin- problem here? HMMMM? Just way Too darned many!!! Way More than necessary. We certainly must as professionals, ask why? Who does your competition use? If it's Munchkin, then why do they not call the installing contractor when they have no DHW in the summer months? Why all the poorly designed (no design) buffer tanks? Is that really necissary to install a low mass boiler?

Search: " Vitodens-Problems" The results you find are MUCH different.. Then try another search: "Buderus-Problems" The same non results.

Guilty I am of this: I do LOVE the HTP SS tanks: the SSU's:-) Excelent product that I use on nearly every new system I do.

Munchkin? I don't want to put something called a Munchkin in my clients house!!! Sorry. It's just that it's a really silly name for an expensive investment my clients adopt into their family. You're boiler is called a WHAT? Munchkin!!! Is'nt that those doughnut holes from Dunkin Doughnuts they couldn't sell? I believe they just started throwing them out at some point.

BTW. Where is the seal ? Munchkin is a sealed combustion unit? There are seals off the coast of Martha's Vineyard. I've seen those seals but, no combustion/air intake seals on the Munchkin. WHY is that? I'm certainly NOT the first or last person here to ask why. If I remember correctly. Hot Rod was going to get a "for construction only Munchkin" because the sheetrock dust keeps getting into the units he uses. I also remember reading a thread last summer that compared the Munchkin's exterior construction to a Coleman™ cooler. They do look quite similar. I won't say what the wiring harness was described as. Look and see for yourself.

ZIppiddy dooo Dahhhh;;;

The Munchkin STINKS. There I said it!!!

I know I'm going to get some (a lot of) heat over this but, Hey, I'll be at ISH this comming week. All week. Talk with me there. I'll be the one in the corner drinking the orange Kool Aid with my apprentices.

Sorry Chuck. Cheryl & I still love you man!

Yes, I have edited this post. and I endorce it;-)
Gary

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Unknown

Timmie, I also love & respect you

But, I think this must be said. Folks who come here expecting professionalism deserve to hear a good debate unlike what I saw this evening between the Elephant & the ****.

For you & my fellow friends/brothers & Wallies, I've edited the language (one word) that some may have found offensive in this thread.

You are absolutely right. This probably may not look good and possibly give a bad feeling about our trade to some. I've just had way too much of my Munchkin selling low bidding competition this week & I'm growing weary of explaining the differences in quality, longevity and efficiency.

I most sincerely hope that this particular manufacturer WILL improve and continue to do so with their very promising product. I'd LOVE to sell an American made condensing boiler that is: just as good as what the Germans offer us at this time. The M boiler is not at this point.

Now I'm just telling them (prospective customers) to come here: The Wall: type into the Search button >M-------< problems. & see for them self.

I may be out of order here but;, I've NEVER spoken out against any person or product here for as long as I've been coming around. Check for yourself & correct me if I'm wrong. It won't be the first time.

Best,

Gary


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Mark Eatherton1

Ya got my dander up...

I'll talk to you about it in private in Bean Town...

ME

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jerry scharf_2

deeply confused

Gary,

I am very confused by this post, and a series of other ones like it. There seems to a near religious energy involved in some of the people who are posting, and I just don't get it.

HTP builds a boiler. It has a series of engineering compromises, just like any other boiler out there. They are a design that uses the fact that Europe has many high quality subsystems that can be incorporated with good materials cost. They have a set of products, price points, a sales strategy and support. If you don't like these, just don't buy the product. HTP will get the message, or not, but this only seems to harden the lines. I've never heard anyone at HTP say that a Munchkin is just the same as a Vitodens, have you? They may say that a Munchkin can serve in the same applications, so can a cast iron boiler. There's certainly no corner on the "we're super efficient" ground.

EBM shipped HTP a bad set of fans. People complained that the units were bad and HTP ackowledged this. HTP had some people complain that because of stocking issues, people were getting caught with bad blowers after the warrantee. It can clearly be looked at as "You're a grown up, you didn't check your stock for needing repair, tough." HTP chose not to take that approach, and changed the warrantee to cover these people. How is this different than other problems that other manufacturers have and have dealt with?

Like many other boilers, they can be set up wrong. When a Munchkin is done wrong, bad things happen. Like we saw with Dan Foley's post, even a Viessmann can be trashed with a botched install. HTP offers what I think to be careful and undestandable installation instructions.

There have been complaints about other condensers, but it doesn't seem to raise the same ire. One thing to remember is that what Viessmann and Buderus send over to the US have been in place for years in Europe and had all the rough edges filed off. So when we get it, it should be only issues of transport and install instructions.

They do advertise and sell hard, but when your company is at stake, you better. I have never heard anyone from HTP misrepresent the units. It is quite possible that contractors misrepresent the units, but that's no different than anything else that gets misrepresented in this world. Just take a gander into the Indoor Air Quality world for people who are far less honest at both the manufacturer and installer levels.

It can't be as simple as not liking the name. Maybe HTP should come up with the Altas series much like Fords and Mercurys.

If you want to sell a Viessmann up against a Munchkin, yes you will need to sell the customer on the benefit of a more expensive boiler. Some will buy it, others won't. That's not a reason to piss on the product here.

To paraphrase Pah's position: The munchkin is a boiler that he carries. Some people will select that one, some will choose more expensive units and others will choose less expensive units. In any case, the quality of the install is excellent and that's what the customer buys from his company.

What have I missed?

jerry

Unknown

You are mistaken, Gary

You had some pretty strong words HERE about the company I work for.

You have a tendency to air your OPINIONS here before you work with the manufacturer in private.

I don't even see any indication that you ARE willing to work anything out.

You like to use this forum in a negative, hurtful way.

If you like what you use, say something good about it.

Period.

Noel

ScottMP

Gary

I suggest you

Think First

Type Second

Cocktail Hour Last

I disagree with your post Very Strongly.

I also notice a tone to your post's of last night !

Scott

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Troy_3

Munchkin

So the real problem is you are getting your clock cleaned with a well designed affordable and efficient american boiler. A boiler that other contractors like because it works. And your prospective customers see the value in this product rather than spending twice as much for an imported boiler that they may not be able to get serviced. I think I get it? Too bad for you. That doesn't make Munchkin bad. Munchkin must outsell V 20 to 1 in the states . That is why you hear more about the problems. A lot of contractors are still learning to use condensing boilers. I assure you I am not seeing a lot of problems and I install a lot of Munchkins. And a few Viessmann.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Well

I was planning on watching this from the sidelines Jerry(G). But, now that you mention it that is my policy on bidding new installations unless a specific product is recommended to the consumer and we're given the lead. In that case, only that product is discussed and bid. I won't bite the hand that's feeding me!

Gary,

We too had our share of Munchkin problems. A few were factory issues (a pin hole in a fitting and a loose connection at the drain) but all of the other ones I can recall were created by our doing things the same way we'd become accustomed to doing them - primarily piping & pumping.

Once we finally gave in to their methods and abandoned our primary/secondary piping for an indirect water heater, the last of our issues faded into obscurity.

We've had one sensor fail and one F09 fault code, which required cleaning the flame sensor rod - a job that takes about 30 seconds because they placed it right smack in the front - something I wish other manufacturers, whose flame rods I've had to clean at 2:00 AM, would do.

To be fair, our favorite Sherpa Blue brand has had its share of issues too. But in both cases, the factories have been great to deal with; they've bent over backwards with great service; they're both here on The Wall, which is something I don't see from too many others; they're busting their humps to be the best they can be; their commitment to me as a contractor has built a wide highway of loyalty, which (as I see it) they understand quite clearly is a two-way street; and I've met many of the people who work on the factory floors building these products - they're on the front lines too, just in a different way & we're all in this together.

While it's true that setting up a Munchkin requires close attention to details, what product can you say doesn't require more precision today than it did ten years ago. Consider oil burners as an example.

Americans are energy hogs. Every time I see someone driving a privately owned Hummer, I wonder what they were thinking and what their personality must be like. If Napoleon were alive today, I believe he'd have had to own one - an automatic of course, so he could keep his hand stuffed into his vest. We waste more of those precious and finite resources than any other nation. But we're slowly learning and high efficiency appliances, in spite of their higher costs, are rapidly gaining ground. We're on the front lines of that war.

As for Viessman, they're a class act. They also believe in educating their installers and put their money where their mouth is. Same goes for Buderus and a host of others.

As far as bidding is concerned, why not offer your potential customers a menu. That's what I do and the beauty of computers is that (providing they don't crash) you only need to type the bulk of it the first time. Following that, you can simply change the name and a few other particulars to customize it for that customer.

Let them have their cake & eat it too. A few will chose the Mercedes & most will chose the Ford & some will chose the Yugo. But you get the work!


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Tony_8

Wise man

It took me years to realize some of what you just said, Dave. Life has been MUCH easier ever since I used to whine about losing jobs to lower priced equipment and labor because I was stubborn about which brand of "good stuff" I installed.
Now I always offer good, better, best. I figure if I give the customer enough choices, they don't have to go anywhere else to compare. Last week we did an old fashioned CI boiler w/IID & stack damper, this week an Ultra

Dave Yates (PAH)

Same here

I used to fuss & fume about losing bids to others who were installing equipment I saw as being inferior to the products I specified. The problem was the "I" in the process. My eyes missed the glaring I's.

Now I ask what products they like or that others are bidding before I leave the job site - not their pricing & I tell the customer point blank to expect our bid to be one of the higher ones they receive. In my bid, I take the time to write about pumping away, why that solves the air/noise issues we discussed (I intentionally ask about that to get them thinking about aggravating things & then offer a solution - in writing) and I explain that we're not just installing a boiler - we're looking at this as a system. Last week, I asked the owner if I could go upstairs and through the house to measure the radiators for ascertaining the steam boiler's connected load. She asked why & I gave her the layman's explination & she remarked that I was the only bidder that asked to do this or took the time to explain anything about her antique steam system. In sales, the wife almost always determines who gets the work(G). tHEiR's (intentional cap use) is no longer a simple compare pricing sale to determine who gets the work.

I'll check the other product's wholesale pricing and include that brand as an option too. One Cardinal rule - never bash the competition or another's products during a sales call. Sell yourself first and the product second.

Last, but not least, I set up an "Options:" bulleted list with lots of add-on goodies like outdoor reset, humidification, UV, HEPA, programmable stats (sometimes listed as a free upgrade - just like Dell!), etc... It's a rare job that doesn't get at least one add-on & the beauty of it is they chose it themselves.

I still lose my share of bids, but not as many as I used to once I eliminated the all-knowing-I.

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Ken_8

U missed a terribly important possibility as well.

That being, the volume of comments on the Munchkin and your incorrect notion of it being overwhelmingly negative, is more likely because of the incredible success and huge number of units being sold - than the negativity you suggest is the basis of the huge number of posted comments.

I would be willing to bet that there are more Minchkins being sold in the U.S. than MZ's, Ultra's and Vitodens COMBINED!

You know why? Because the price points make it accessible to many more "typical" contractors - that would never venture into condensing boiler territory in the first place!

When THAT dynamic enters the picture, we see many less qualified contractors installing these things and the results will increase "problems" exponentially!

These "problems" seem curiously atuned to the group of guys who are first or second-time condensing boiler installers.

We have put in (or taken over service) on about 20 condensing boilers from three manufacturers in the past two years. 2 MZ's, 8 Munchkins, and 10 Ultras. Have had not one problem of any sort on all 20.

How many have you installed and what "failures" have you personally experienced?

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Mike Kraft_2

Yatesey!

Your method reminds me of a Buffet tune:)..........Fins to the left,Fins to the right !

Your method of madness is solid, sound and way to simple.Makes everyones job easier.Thanks for the tip!

Gary Gary Gary.....stay with what you know how to do.Other than that be like the 3 monkeys.We are but installers of heating equipment.We all have axes to grind.Our minds tend to have tall fences.HTP is answering a call to market.We know it's not yours..............but apparently there are a vast number of people who love the HTP line.

cheese

Dave Yates (PAH)

As you work your craft Kraft

you are no mere installer of heating, you are an artisan, an artist - someone who laughs in the face of discomfort as you bring untold levels of comfort to your customers. Same goes for Gary and all others for whom the flames of wet head passions burn brightly. We sometimes let those feelings get in the way of our thinking.

Glad you liked the tip. That's what this place is all about.

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Steve Eayrs

come on guys, don't overdo it.

I agree with a lot of the comments, but munchkins not cleaning anyones clock. And even thought Gary may have been more emotional about it than needed, yes there have been a lot more problems with them than most. I would also chalenge the 20 x 1 sales. Maybe some East Coast areas, but they are by far the minority of sales in our area and many others I know of. Maybe your just confusing things. My personal experience is the rate of major problems, compared to the Vitodens, is over 20 x 1.


Steve

hr

Not as sick as you're gonna be

when the Munchkin mafia is done with you

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lchmb

someone had to say it

Hope my shin's can take it..LOL..J/K

hr

many moons ago

we had unusually high failure rates on the HTP SuperStor tanks. Dave Davis owner of HTP took the time to look me up at the Denver RPA Rex show, 1996 I believe.

Took me to dinner apoligized about the failures, gave ne a great explanation about welding stainless and the challanges of welds, shied gases, thermal expansion, water quality, etc.

I recieved a free un insulated tanks weeks later with some of the new redesigned fittings used in the tank. (that tank still buffers my condensing boiler to this day)

Can't remember any other company owner going to this length to make amends.

Perhaps vendor problems have haunted some of their product. It's the way they handle the problem that keeps their customer base loyal.

More companies should follow this model. Not to mention CEOs and commander in chiefs.

Honesty is the best policy, always

hot rod

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Mike Kraft_2

And thats a good thing

(sorry Martha)So many manufacturers have what would appear to be a catalog of responses to equipment failures in the field.The lack of honesty to contractors can be weak.None of us are perfect!Problems arise and ultimately are passed on to the end user.Puts the contractor in a rather precarious place.God knows I have put my faith in product,reccomended it highly to my clients and ultimately have eaten my share of non payment of labor.

I have my druthers when it comes to equipment.I have to be comfortable.There are many applications that failures are not due to the MAN's stuff.And most contractors need someone else to blame;)As HR says honesty is the best policy.The force is there!

cheese

Ken D.

Munchkin

Never met a Munchkin. But, if it is truly a bad boiler, the market will take over and bury them. I have seen some pretty good units over the years crash and burn not because they were bad units, but because the manufacturers did not address a problem and allowed it to snowball many times by blaming it on the contractors until it got a bad rap by word of mouth. Then it was too late. If the contractors are installing them wrong then it is up to the manufacturer to train the personnel who installs them.

Chuckles_2

homeowner with Munchkin

I'm a homeowner with a Munhkin. I've only been using it for a couple of weeks, but it seems to work well.

I do agree that

(a) the plastic case is unexpectedly tacky. I spent over $6K on the whole installation, how much difference would a metal case have made? &br;
(b) The PVC intake pipe is completely unnecessary because of the gaps on the sides of the cover.
(c)the unruly tangle of wires inside bothers me; it is bad design.
(d)instead of a firmly attached exterior control panel, there is this loose box hanging from a ribbon cable (I have it outside the case so I can use it, and it looks like an electronics project made from a kit).

But, I repeat, it seems to work fine, and I expect it to last a reasonable number of years.

Chuckles_2

> does no good for any of us in the heating

> profession. It surely gives the impression to

> folks who come here expecting professionalism a

> bad feeling about our trade.

>

> We have had

> problems with equipment of all kinds for most of

> the 40+ years I have been in the business. I for

> one however have never found that saying they

> "suck" gets any kind of good results or develops

> the kind of professional discussion we need to

> have.

>

> I find that rather than say something

> "sucks" it is my burden to find a solution for

> the problems and perhaps help that particular

> manufacturer to improve their product. I have

> great respect for you but I feel that comment is

> out of order. I also surely love you brother.

Chuckles_2

homeowner with Munchkin

I'm a homeowner with a Munchkin. I've only been using it for a couple of weeks, but it seems to work well.

I do agree that

(a) the plastic case is unexpectedly tacky. I spent over $6K on the whole installation, how much difference would a metal case have made?

(b) The PVC intake pipe is completely unnecessary because of the gaps on the sides of the cover

(c)the unruly tangle of wires inside bothers me; it is bad design

(d)instead of a firmly attached exterior control panel, there is this loose box hanging from a ribbon cable (I have it outside the case so I can use it, and it looks like an electronics project made from a kit).


But, I repeat, it seems to work fine, and I expect it to last a reasonable number of years.

munchkin-man

Thanks Noel

munchkin-man

Training is what we are doing. We have found that there are so

many hack's in this industry we have to train. Many schools do not teach all the issues of high efficiency fully modulating condensing heater's. We find people who read the manual and still screw things up so we are forced to make things idiot proof for the most part and as user freindly as possible. We are on the leading edge of water heating technology. Heat Transfer Products, Inc. will be in the market for a very long time. We take pride in our accomplishments and are very proud of our products. We have one of the best technical support systems in the industry and strive to meet or exceed our customers needs by producing the highest quality water heating appliances on the market. Yea we have had our share of small issues not created by use and have made good for them but we find that 95% of the issues / problems are field created. I have come to the companies defence countless times with comments like BAD MUNCHKIN, MUNCHKIN PROBLEMS AGAIN directed at the munchkin, only to address the issue in private with the individual to find the problem was an installer error. I did not make a fool of these people NO I was diplomatic in my approch to solve the issue and never went back on the wall to put it in there face for there mistakes in front of others. I and the company deserve the same respect. As stated in one of the comments we are all in this together. If you are not on board your not sorry. Gary I am appalled with the way you handled this being inmature and disrespectful. I however am not supprized after meeting you at the fuel oil dealrs show in Hartford CT. last year ya know first impression is an ever lasting one and yours was not good. I am sorry to hear you will be on the bus seems I will be wasting my time and other visitors may feel uncomfortable with your presents.

Ken D.

Munchkin

Maybe the answer is to be more selective about who you sell to and through. Although I'm sure that is easier said than done. Unfortunately, there are many unprofessionals out there. I do however, empathize with some that get frustrated with a unit or manufacturer as I have been there. And this is not directed at Munchkin or anyone else but, there is plenty of blame to go around. Many contractors have non existent training, many techs have non existent desire to get training, many suppliers have non existent customer service and with all that a manufacturer has a lot working against them. And there are some manufacturers that do not have customer service and technical support as a high priority. When a guy in the field does not understand a system, the first thing he says is this unit s--ks (vacuum)! Thats why the boss should be insisting on and providing continuing education or tell the under-achievers to work somewhere else. Or the good tech should tell the under-achieving boss that He's leaving to work for someone who does care.

Unknown

Reasons why I posted the objectionable thread;



“There is a consistent theme to these threads that says be afraid; be very afraid.”

I’ve received 4 service calls within the last two weeks. These calls propelled me to my recent (offensive) post on The Wall. Three of these were from people calling upon me to fix a non-functioning Munchkin that I did not install. I personally met with two of these clients in the recent past offering them my line of hydronic products; the MZ™ & the Vitodens™. These two homeowners chose to use other (competing) contractors and now can’t seem to get them to take care of their service problems. My wholesaler, (I use to by Munchkin’s from) asked me to look at the other unit. It was a bad blower motor & a quick & easy fix. The fourth came from one of MY clients who’s condensate drain was backed up. The rubber p-shaped drain out the back had come off and started to pool water under the boiler. Should I have to check that factory joint?

I will step up and say that the most common problem with the Munchkin I’ve found is that it’s being misapplied in the field. It’s just too darned easy to sell these boilers to any heating contractor. The wholesaler here (I do business with) pushes this product to EVERY heating contractor. Those contractors are SLAMMING THEM IN without any CBT instruction. Why,,, For good money. My wholesaler is making it just way too easy to use these in the HUGE replacement market that the Munchkin fills perfectly if properly implimented.

IMO this boiler has priced itself into a category of heating contractors that just don’t read the directions. That’s why all the problems exist now and will continue snowball in the future.

Impressionism,

Jeff,

RE; Meeting you for the first time in CT; My bad. Must have been that I asked you about the predominant blower motor failures as that was a HUGE thread being discussed on The Wall at the time & I had also personally seen one that had come apart.. Sorry if that made you feel as though I was not interested in your product. The middle part of the conversation was about how I look forward to seeing a fully functional American condenser. As I recall, the last thing Cheryl & I said was that I look forward to offering the Munchkin to my customers in the future.

I won’t be in attendance on the scheduled bus trip to HTP if that’s what you really want. You’re not the first to suggest that I not attend. The “Munchkin Mafia” has made itself quite clear. I don’t want to make ANYONE feel uncomfortable. Especially myself.

What I’d really like EVERYBODY to understand is that these are not cast Iron boilers & shouldn’t replace them unless you have at least undergone some sort of condensing boiler training. It’s been way too easy to substitute a Munchkin for a conventional boiler at the price & wholesaler’s suggestion. What I’m seeing right now is the aftermath of all the guys that are use to cast iron doing Munchkins because it was priced to compete with conventional (old) technology.

I won’t bump this thread out of respect for the dedicated people that work for HTP. It’s about the product NOT THE PEOPLE. The thread was raw but the truth from what my eyes have seen. Perhaps Dan with his wisdom & discretion will remove it forevermore & that would be just fine with me.

Gary

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Mark Hunt

With all due respect sir


will you tell us what the cut off for "reading and not reading" the instructions is?

Only those who pay 4k+ for a boiler read instructions?

So Ron Jr. does not read instructions because he installs boilers that are less money than the Munchkin?

Maddog doesn't read instructions or attend training because he doesn't sell a 4k boiler?

Mark Eatherton doesn't read instructions because HTP figured it all out for him?

I'm sick and tired of reading about Munchkin problems too Gary, especially when it has nothing to do with the boiler.

Slant/Fin, Burnham, Peerless, Weil-Mclain, Utica, Dunkirk, LAARS, Smith, Trianco, etc................none of these have had problems?

You know better.

It's a free country, you can say what you want. So can I.

I speak from a position of "experiential knowledge", you speak from a position of "vicarious opinion". Which position would you put money on?

I wish you well.





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Unknown

I know you do Mark!

No cut off.

It's not just Vicarious substitution or I wouldn't have posted. It's with my own eyes experience. I'd put my money on your experience any day.

It's misapplication and it's just the start.

Be well.



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Supply House Rick

Munchkin/Pinnacle Problems Revisted

We stock and sell Peerless Pinnacles, 90+% of all problems we have encountered are Installation Errors. Only contractors who actually read the manuals should be allowed to purchase these. Look at the time you wasted going back to the jobs with Peerless Reps only to be embarrassed. Read the manual!!!

Red ****, Who's your Daddy...

Rookie

Ultra vs Munchkin

Is there any preformance rating system in the boiler/water heater industry ? maybe something on the line of JD Power and associates. It would be nice to have a appliance rating system to present to your clients, rather than service invoices.

Keith_8

Hacks and idiot proof?

Talk like that is certainly going to get the installers to ask more questions and take the training classes.

Why not market directly to the homeowner? Maybe they are sharp enough to "get it".

Keith

ed wallace

munckin

so it all boils down to installers not reading the install manual how is that the manufacturers problem thats like blaming gm or ford when drivers do stupid things and crash because they did not read owners manual
note not related to gary wallace





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lchmb

Mad Dog_2

In defense of Munchkin

I think it is key to recall what a previous poster said...to paraphrase: "sure there have been problems, but that's what can happen when they are selling like hot cakes, ie, Munchkin is selling like mad in huge volumes and because of that there will be some issues and alot of poor installs." Like another company several years ago that had problems with rubber o-rings between the sections: they stood up like men, took the punches, made good on the faliures, went back to the R & D corrected the problems and moved on. Munchkin, Jeff Cook, and Chuck Shaw are ALWAYS here to face the music and deal with the consequences. They are MEN'S Men in my book. As I tell all of my prosepctive clients: "All is well when everything goes smoothly on a project....it is when the problems come, and how WE WILL DEAL WITH IT, that seperates us from THEM. WE WILL NEVER WALK AWAY FROM YOU, whether we lose money, time, whatever. We stand by our work and our products like no one lese will." The Munchkin folks are up at bat - I admire them for that. Gary, I think you really should take the tour. No one one form the Munchkin Mafia is gonna "whack" you. Be a man, go on the tour and maybe you'll have a change of heart. Regards, Mad Dog

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chuck shaw

Please try to remember

to look at the dates, this post started over 6 months ago. Supposed burned bridges have been rebuilt, or at least are in the process.

As a company, I can say our tech support calls are way down. That is a good thing, it means that as we make each little change, things start to add up. We are constantly trying to make our product better and more forgiving so, that even a medicore install will still operate. The things we see in the feild, are almost universal mistakes, wrong pump sizing, wanting to vent in a way and manner inconsistant with good venting pratice (any boiler would have problems). On one job, that was a "bad boiler" we found over 100 feet of 4 inch flex duct, as a fresh air intake. I have also seen a 199M boiler, set up with 7 zones, and a single 007 pump. Another constant problem, is condensate back up. We are actively working on fixing as many things as we can. However, every time we fix one thing, someone manages to find a way to make another minor installation error, that sends us back to the drawing board.

In regard to the automobile referance, anyone can drive a care, the people who are installing boilers are supposed to be professionals, if a NASCA driver was getting a new system installed in his car, I would be willing to bet the professional driver would read the book.


Chuck Shaw

Techinical Support Department

Heat Transfer Products

Rookie

reason for posting

I was searching through the data base to compile some information on Munchkins and Ultra boilers, when I decided to post a question regarding boiler performance and a possible rating system. Well in the process of establishing a new subject line I posted on this one, by the time I realized it, it was too late. So I apologize for bringing up old wounds that apparently have made deep scars. I promise to be more careful in the future.

Mad Dog_2

uh ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark Eatherton is as big and nice as Hoss Cartwright, but I wouldn't wanna pee him off. You gots you selfs a date wif destiny , Now, Gary! Mad Dog

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Unknown

Mr. Wallace has added Latent Energy

I am sorry I do not know you, but I have to give you credit for inspiring such a heated debate.

Whereas, I understand that the europeans (yes, small e) are a few million condensing boilers ahead of us (US), one has to applaud Mr. Davis (someone I do know) for his courage and entrepreneurship.

Your points on training and reading instructions are well taken. It is ultimately the resposibility of the manufacturer to insure that he is well represented in the field, but having some experience at every level of the condensing boiler market, this task is easier said than done.

All the best,

MA

DanHolohan

Now there's a voice

from my past.

Dave Yates (PAH)

well

mine too! Interesting add to a condensing boiler thread(G).

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