Nailing the lid on the Suspended Tube Coffin

Unknown

John Siegenthaler’s PM article has more than a few people up in arms over his & others experiences with these types of systems.

To quote a smart and nice guy: “Education and communication are the keys that will unlock the doors barring the way to systems that can exceed customer expectations.” (PAH)

Ironically, under Dan’s PM column this month we see in BIG BOLD letters below: “Look ma, no plates” ;-)

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Dale Pickard

Yes, he is.

Gary,

I agree, Mr Siegenthaler is indeed, "right on".

One of the problems with the hydronic heating industry in the U.S. is a mis-understanding and disrespect for, what it means to be technically progressive.

The more technically successful and advanced companies recognize that, to do better, "one must critcize good things". In the U.S. there is no criticism of "bad things", much less good. With respect to the so called "staple up" and "suspended tube" radiant floor installation methods, something has to account for the prescence of even a controversy. My hat is off to Mr. Siegenthaler for noting the state of the Emperor's undress. Without undue equivication, let us call a spade a spade, look reality in the eye and acknowlede that, "staple up" truly sucks!

In the U.S. Plumbing and Heating trade magazine world, there are no poor techniques or bad products. Any product or method that earns advertising dollars for the magazine is worthy of cheerleading and promoting, regardless of the expense to the installing contractors and end users. Ultimately, the weak and confused industry itself, suffers, and fails to move forward or adapt to the changing world in which it finds itself.

The converse is also true, products or techniques that are not advertised on the pages of the free magazines, like PM, recieve little or no attention. There is no real venue for rational evaluations of real products and methods, (except perhaps the Wall, for which I give Mr. Holohan credit for allowing any extended, critical discussion at all). Other markets, for other products and services, clearly benefit from rational criticism and improve as a result.

I think the Plumbing and Heating world is a good example of a market which deviates strongly from ideal theory. Imperfections in the product, or failure to really meet market needs, (much less environmental or social needs), does not necessarily lead to technical adaptation or progress. Instead, the P&M world in the U.S., prefers igonrance to knowledge and thinks that the market can be baffled. Is there any wonder why so little hydronic heating is done on this continent, or why even our mainstream hydronic, "manufacturers", import technology from overseas?

So, we as an industry have to understand that there is a whole world of technical advancement waiting for us as North Americans to explore and exploit. Sadly, judging from domestic hydronic product offerings, I personally think that it will take us a decade to grow the engineering talent, the tooling and manufacturing investment and technical wherewithal, here in N.A., that was a available in Europe a decade ago.

It has been said before that the free magazines are worth exactly what you pay for them. John Siegenthalers articles are the notable exception to this rule. I am very surprised that PM even published his thoughtful and experienced opinion.

Sorry for the rant, Gary, your comments pulled my chain.
BTW, great Vitodens install elsewhere on the wall!
Thanks for a great attitude. We need more like you, (I think).

Dale

S Ebels

I would modify the theory

The theory that staple up has no place whatsoever in our collective "toolbox" is a bit to final for me. Never say Never, the old saying goes.

I just looked at a home Saturday that would be an ideal candidate for a little suspended job. The particular room in the house is the living room. At some point in time the standing iron was removed and BB was installed and has proven to be inadequate. This happened before the present owner took up residence there. The current situation is as follows. The thermostat for the South half of the house resides in the living room which is underheated. It constantly calls for heat, in turn, overheating the rest of the rooms on that zone. There is no place for more BB, or other additional radiation. The basement ceiling underneath this room is accessable.

I'm going to recommend 2 runs of 1/2" in each joist bay, suspended and running it constant circ on OD reset. From what I can see and calculate the suspended tube should provide enough additional BTU's to bring up the comfort level in that room. The room is about 10 BTU's shy per sq ft at design temps.

A few hundred feet of suspended tube fits this niche very nicely. That niche being a source of auxilary heat. NOTE: I said auxilary heat! Not primary or sole heat source. That is a task for which suspended tube is not well suited. On that point I can agree.

Troy_3

Article?

How do I get to this article? I really want to read it. I hope everyone who comes here reads it twice. Hooray for Siggy. I can't stand this political correctness. If it's true then say it. We are correcting way too many badly designed and badly installed jobs. We are in the middle of ripping out 2000' of garden hose stapled under a 4 year old house that hasn't yet heated well. And guess what- she has a full heat loss from the manufacturer stating that the required water temp is only 110deg. Now they refuse to talk to her. And the installer worked nights and weekends putting it in. What a surprise!

hr

Coffin, nails! too strong

I agree with Steve there is a time and place for suspended and staple up. Knowing when, how, and the thermodynamics involved are paramount.

I have staple up and suspended zones in my own house. HW baseboard as a second stage. Warm floors always! And bb to kick in as temperatures drop below the reasonable floor output. I can live with 8-10 BTU/ square foot from a staple up much of the winter. I'm sure others can too.

No need to run high temperatures to the radiant or overheat the floor coverings, in my home, it does what it does with 140° F. and the baseboards take over. No crimes against hydronics commited here. Are there?

If I'm not mistaken every one of Siggys columns regarding staple up and suspended tube acknowledge a limited use, and place, for these. Along with a output expectation based on his FEA models. Correct me if I'm wrong, Gary

And of course you have read John Barba's "The Staple Up Scandal" article on the front page of the June 04 RPA newsletter, haven't you?

Suspended tube and staple up manufactures need to put a number, tested and accepted by the engineering community, perhaps ASHRAE, or KSU :)to the output and stand behind it.

The desire to heat within condensing temperatures will sort out the weaker transfer methods of radiant installation, as their popularity and acceptance grows. Looks like you are walking this road as we speak

Contractors need to know how and if the "suspenders" and the "S-ups" fit their customers application. End of story.

Curious Gary where you put SubRay and other on top retro fit products in the transfer mode? Conduction "The King" in my book, convection, or radiation. Or a combo of the three. And do you believe the output for these systems based on manufactures output charts?

hot rod

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Dale Pickard

From an economics vs performance standpoint, the so called staple up techniques compete more directly with other higher temperature distribution systems, like radiators and baseboard. that operate at temperatues >120 f.

These systems can be sized to readily provide very high output at water temperatures that the staple up techniques must have to struggle to put up a meager output. Economically, you can get more heat out of baseboard or radiators faster and cheaper at the same water temps, than out of
a badly performing radiant floor. The installers just take on a lot of liability they don't need.

Here is the big difference between copper fin tube baseboard, cast iron baseboard and the steel panel radiators. The "faux" radiant floor uses a lot of plastic pipe, which makes the plastic pipe manufacturers happy.

The pipe manufacturers and the "radiant panel industry" urge you to "do the math", and try to apply radiant floor heating no matter how inappropriate the application or how inordinate the economics are to the end user. Well, you can calculate until you are blue in the face and it won't change the reality that the staple up is bad application of radiant panel heating, the hallmark of which is low temperature operation at high output. All you did is generate a bunch of meaningless numbers that seek to justify a bad application. This is just another way of baffling the designers, installers and end users.

Professional hydronic specialists should not be one trick ponies. There is way too much emphasis on radiant panels. Good contractors and heating designers will have a whole bag of tricks available to them, only one of which is radiant panel heating.

Our entire definition of performance can't be hung up in simple minded concepts like the absence of complete failure to heat under design conditions, i.e. it "works" or it doesn't. We seem to spend a lot of time defending bad ideas rather than improving good ideas.

There are lots of good reasons, (another subject) beyond condensing boilers, not to consitpate the distribution system and to operate the entire house/heating system at the lowest temperature possible. There is something wrong when your engine races at high rpm to achieve very low road speeds.

Dale

Dale Pickard

increasing output

I understand your point.

I would look at the amount of heat being supplied to the room and evaluate it to see if it should be sufficient for the construction. If the heat already being supplied seems like it should be sufficient, one might look to the construction to understand why. Conservation investments are always better and allow our heating systems to work better.

We use a lot of the double tier baseboard (Argo). You could try replacing the current baseboard with the double tier. While you don't get twice the heat, there is a real increase in output for the length. If you use a return bend, you can plumb it from one end. If there is wall space above the baseboard, perhaps it, (the BB) might be replaced with a larger radiator that would provide higher output.

Just a thought.

Dale

Weezbo

Lets not just jump at the opportunity to throw yhe baby out...

with the bath water...just beacause i like lowest possible water temps in my slabs dosent infer that i have Sh canned the idea of base board or rad pannels .......yeah i like my BIG GRIPS however that 48"aluminum comes in mighty handy from time to time..please dont take this wrong,,just because some engineer doesnt want to carry one about i am not going to throw the thing away to suit some snivelers who dont know left from right.

ScottMP

A couple of questions ...

Steve, if the customer has the money to invest in a staple up floor and control system, why not us plates ? wold'nt the direct contact of plates give better responce and output ?

HR, you said no need to run higher temps to the floor it does it at 140 ! Would'nt a floor with plates acutally use lower water temps ? I see now reason to increase water temp because of plates. Lower temps usualy equate to lower fuel ussage, what am I missing ?

Scott

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Boilerpro_3

I agree HR

I have two homes now under construction that are using a combination of suspended tube and plates. They both are very well constructed and insulated so heat loads are light and have very large areas of hardwood or tile floors. However, they also include bedrooms with heavier carpet. Within this scenario, most of the space heating loads are in the 12 to 15 btu/sq ft range with hardwood floors which requres about 140F water with staple up, and the areas with carpeting need 140F water with heavy plates. In addition, no condensing equipment was being considered, though at these design temps it should work quite well.
If the economies of suspended tube were not employed, both homes would have had combo forced air heating/cooling systems...never a good idea due to the large amount of waste and compromised design of combo ductwork systems and the poor quality that seems to dominate in my area.

I approach the challenge this way. I encourage the homeowner to build the best envelope possible and then design with a maximum design temp of 140F water, or there abouts. With a high quaility envelope, roughly 3/4 or more of the home can be heated with suspended tube. In marginal rooms, plates can be added near high heat loss areas, such as under windows, to boost output to make up for any shortfall in btu's using straight staple up will provide. Some rooms with large loads.... lots of windows and on a northwest(windward corner) corner.... may need all plates to meet the load, while most of the rest of the home uses suspended tube. You could also use radiant ceiling in these rooms to really economize.
My next new home going up will be using standing radiation in the bedrooms with TRVs since the flors have heavy carpet, while nearly all the rest of the home will have suspended tube under hardwood or tile.

To say suspended tube does not work is just not telling the whole truth. I have one home out in rural farm county that is nearly all suspended tube with large glass areas and has gone through two winters with no problems. In fact the first winter there was no insulation behind the tubing and the family stayed warm and comfy. In fact I even had to turn the tekmar house control reset curve down on the system to even out the zone cycling.

As we begin to build properly built structures with low losses per sq ft, suspended tube will make more and more sense. Homes in the 10 to 12 btu/sq ft range are well within the grasp of good builders with good designs. For older homes,like my own 100 year old two story with a heat load at about 18 btu/sq ft, pex with plates or Watts staple up is needed.

Use appropriate installation techniques for the loads and to provide good balance to the system (same peak desing water temps throughout).

Boilerpro

hr

Yeah, Scott

the plates do make a huge difference in not only temperature but also the eveness of the temperature spresd.

I am a big fan of transfer plates. Furthermore a big fan of the best extruded tight tube transfer plates, don't get me wrong.

Currently I have a cast iron boiler in my home. My Slant Fin baseboard was designed around fairly low supply temperatures. Wall to wall board!

So the addition of some suspended and staple tube played into my simple, low cost, one temperature, distribution, well. (I do have a kitchen floor with plates)

But unlike the fast and efficiency of panel or baseboard as Dale mentions I still get warm floors. Even though I don't have the ultimate transfer for the radiant floor.

I don't deny the power of heat transfer and spent a lot of time and money proving the difference with my IR experiment. So I have felt it, lived with it and have even seen the difference in a living color movie Spent 6 hours watching the four different methods perform through the lens of the infared camera. I'm a beliver.

I'll be moving the MZ from my shop to the house. I may have my "never say no" partner, Scott, help with some plate installation in the crawl space of my home. Although he doesn't know it yet.

It's the bazzilion nails sticking down that swayed me towards suspended and staple up in the first go around. Not lack of thermodynamic heat transfer knowledge! Spending days in a 18" deep crawl with a grinder inches from my face is nothing to look forward to

hot rod

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Weezbo

There we go Sane ..with a brain!

in the bible it says something to the effect of the lord is well pleased with his servant who Has an answer:)

ScottMP

A good reason

why the radiant at my housse is not completed

I have hardwood floor with cut nails sticking down, but its my house and I'll do the work to put in the plates.

Thanks for the answer.

Scott

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leo g_13

couldn't

have said it better BP! in my area we design for 15* or higher and most of the time, (like the past 4 winters) never even come close to this design number.

Again a blanket statement that does not "cover" everything/where. I find that when I do staple up it happens mostly in reno's. ANd don't forget aux. heat options, like gas fireplaces, which most homes around here have 2 or more.

I always try to provide my clients with what will work for them and their budgets.

Leo G

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Aidan (UK)

Anyone got a link?

Has anyone got a link to these articles, I'd like to read them.

The UK trade magazines generally consist of 100 pages of advertisements and advertising features. They don't seem to pay anyone to write knowledgeable articles that don't have an interest in selling some products.

Unknown

Too strong? Perhaps.

No crimes committed against hydronics here? Certainly not on Know it All Lane but, It seems Troy is currently straightening out a hydronic FELONY. One of many out there.

I won’t go as far as Dale has by making statements that "staple up truly sucks!” It can and far too often does! I will agree that there is a time & place for these systems. It just seems that MOST of the substandard emitter systems we see out there used one of these two methods.

I put on top - retro fit products in the “combo of the three” mode of heat transfer. I always base on manufactures specs. then, I add some based on gut feeling. So, yes I believe the output charts for these systems to be somewhat accurate. Does the Hydronic Design Studio™ Simulator or your infrared testing tell us differently? True. Every one of Siggys columns regarding staple up and suspended tube has acknowledge their limited use along with output expectations based on his FEA models. That’s why I said that he’s “Right On.”

May be I should get out the grinder and get to work removing coffin nails;-)


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Dale Pickard

Your thoughtful post

Thanks for your thoughts BP.

I would like to note something that jumped out at me in your post.
We do not recommend our ThermoFin plates underneath heavy carpet. The plates can't compensate for high thermal resistance on the top of the floor. Nothing can.

The Thermofins will help achieve thermostat setpoints under design conditions, but only at the expense of dangerously high water temperatures.

We have learned the hard way. Our ThermoFin plates work really, really well. If you put 150 deg water through the tube, the entire plate comes up to 150. What makes this water temperature dangerous is that it can readily delaminate the plywood subfloor, which will also come close to 150. The plywood is caught between a significant insulation and a very hot plate. I'm using 150 because we have seen it happen at that temperature.

Suspended tubes and staple up tubes and the lousy sheet metal omega plates simply don't have the heat transfer to have this effect. Under a carpeted floor, these systems will not provide the output to satisfy the thermostat setpoint at design.

Heavily carpeted rooms is another poor application of radiant floor heating that experienced installers and designers should avoid. It's a bad application of radiant panel heating, a waste of a radiant floor.

The radiant panel industry is making a mistake when they push these lousy applications. I think that those of us (designers / installers) who may be less well informed are taken advantage of by the people (tubing manufacturers, magazine publishers, uninformed columnists, RPA etc.) who push these techniques,
but aren't there when it comes time to take responsibility for them.
They are pushing substandard methods on people who don't know any better but will have to take responsibility for them.

Even one callback on a system that is failing can eat the profits for that job. Contractors that intentionally skirt the ragged edge of failure shouldn't be surprised when they find themselves in court.....alone. In a situation like that, there is no expert witness that can put a good spin on "staple up." It's a substandard, risky method, and we all know it.

John Siegenthaler wrote his opinon after visiting failed systems. Last winter, Hot Rod had me designing heat transfer extrusions for failed rubber hose systems. A system that can't even make design load in Missouri, is an inefficient heating system all of the time.

I suggest installing a nice solid radiator system that works efficiently and effectively, over a cheesy radiant floor system that barely functions and may fail under design.

On the wall I see countless examples of contractors showing some of the best work any of us have ever seen. That same pride should extend to the efficiency and effectiveness of the entire heating system, especially the distribution system.

One question for everyone, if your customer knew what you know, what would they do? What will they do if they find out what you know.....but under less than ideal circumstances?

Dale

Dale Pickard

Here you go

John's article is at the link found below. It was in the May issue of P&M magazine.

It's too bad that we don't have an objective source of information. It would be well worth the subscription price for such a publication. Compare a quality publication like Journal of Light Construction, or Fine Homebuilding with our typical mechanical contractor trade mags and tabloids.

Dale

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,124062,00.html

Unknown

Here's the link

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,124062,00.html

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Dale Pickard

Couple of other thoughts

As long as you are putting the very expensive labor in to thread tubing between the floor joists, why not use a great heat transfer plate like the Thermofin that can increase your performance over 300%? Maybe you can pull out the baseboard altogether?

Also, there is no point in putting a staple up system on outdoor reset. There is little latitude in the range of performance of these systems. They require high water temps to get any heat at all!

They are based on natural convection driven by the temperature difference between surfaces. Air has mass and generates momentum when it moves. The energy to move the air comes from the temperature difference. Like hot water baseboard, the performance curve for these systems will have a significant "knee" in it, like the performance curves for hot water baseboard and other appliances based on natural convection.

Dale

Dale

Aidan (UK)

Thanks

Thank you Dale & Gary. Read it, printed it, filed it.

DanHolohan

How about posting

in On the Job? It's there for you guys, but hardly used.

Got something to review or say, Dale? Send it to me.

Dale Pickard

OK

Ok Dan,

I am trying to tiptoe around this issue some, and I am not saying that I haven't learned from many of the columnists in the trade mags, like yourself, Ballanco, and others that write write for them.

You were the one who explained some of the rules behind these publications, which make sense as the derive all of their revenue from advertising, some of which is beyond the reach of little guys like me. (so I am necessarily bitter) ; -)

Still though, we don't see the (more or less) objective reviews that we might see in other pubs like the ones I mentioned. The trade mags always seem to turn a review into a promotion.

I don't know about "on the job" but I will check into it. Were that I could afford the time to do such evaluation and writing, especially since we all know how objective I am. (big grin)

Actually, I am writing a piece on low temperature operation in which I am trying to get past my own obvious attitudes and explain in detail the virtue of low temp operation. I will pass it by you. Thanks for the forum.

Dale

DanHolohan

Happy to have you here, Dale.

Thanks.

kevin_5

Like I said before...

All of the points are well taken about the limitations of staple up and the need to do a thorough heat loss/design.

Having done all that I think the 4 wheel drive analogy fits well. Just because some people get stuck without it, doesn't mean everyone has to have it. Would it be good for every one to have it? Sure. But if they know where they are going and stay out of where they shouldn't be, they could conceivably drive their whole lives without ever needing it. Yes, they will be limited, but if they know that up front and are happy with it, so what? Kevin

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S Ebels

And here's the other side of the coin.............

We hooked up a DIY system last fall that the homeowner had purchased via Al Gore's own internet. Vangaurd tube "Got it way cheaper than anything around here", said Mr HO.

He called us in to connect the manifolds and do the NBP. We found a nearly completed home with tube in the cement basement floor and tube suspended above the completely finished, drywalled basement ceiling. No insulation under the suspended tube. Long story short, when it hit about 5* this past winter the upstairs, 80% of which has nice plush carpet on it started to get cold. This system was/is being driven with a combo wood/lp gas outdoor unit that wouldactually provide 180* H2O to work with.

The suspended tube combined with poor installation and absence of insulation to drive the heat upward couldn't handle the load. I doubt if it would have handled it with decent insulation under it. I had warned Mr.HO that this would happen and he promptly told me at the time that the WWW company said they had thousands of systems out just like his with no problems at all. YEH RIGHT!!!!

It's all in the application guys. Suspended fits some designs but not nearly all. It's being recommended by a lot of people who don't know or don't care and just want to sell tube.

BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!!!!

Dale Pickard

Bad analogy

Nobody needs 4x4 to travel the highway.

Dale

S Ebels

You do

If you live around here (Northern Lower Mich) a 4X4 is standard equipment when the "highways" are 8" deep in slush.

Interesting that the same situation fits here. A 4X4 is right somtimes but not all the time. Same for suspended tube.

Unknown

Dale

You are incorrect. The hallmark of radiant is not low water temperature operation. The hallmark is warm, comfortable floors, as far as many end users are concerned.

I wholeheartedly agree that suspended tube sucks, however it does have a place in the radiant professional's "toolbox" of applications. I can count on the fingers of one finger how many times I seriously consider suspended tube for a project in a year, and we implement it even less than that. But it does work, it is cheap, and it does the job it is supposed to do: heat the floors. If proper design is done, of course.

Could it be better? Of course. But then again, if you drive 100 miles a year in your car, it doesn't make sense to pay twice as much for something with twice the gas mileage too. There are economic "balance points" that cannot be ignored.
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Boilerpro_3

Thanks Dale

It's great to see you posting on this subject,since you have so much testing and knowledge at your fingertips.
I will certainly keep the problems of delamination with high temp plate applications under heavily insulated floors at the forefront of my designs.

Boilerpro

S Ebels

Chowda

You are absolutely correct in saying that plates give better response and output. A couple things tilted my decision toward suspended tube.

1. The job doesn't need the output of plates. It just needs a little boost to help this particular room hit setpoint. The btu transfer of plates would push this room's output past that of the rest of the rooms on the same zone. I only need about 9-10 BTU's at design /sq ft.

2. Suspended tube needs higher water temps than a plate system. If I used plates I would have to install a mixing device for just that room driving the cost per sq ft past a reasonable amount. Letting the suspended tube run at the same temp as the rest of the radiation in the house eliminates the expense of installing the injection system or mixing valve. The new boiler going in the home will be capable of full reset so the tube can run all the way up or down along with the rest of the system.

leo g_13

Why does

everyone say that suspended is cheap? do you mean a cheap system, as in not really the best way to go? or do you mean cheap as in installation? i find that my labour for a suspended is WAY higher then putting the tubing on the floor.the amount of holes drilled, the ladder work, the "fussiness" of getting the tube into the bays, etc., etc., etc.

Leo G

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Unknown

cheap

Compared to other under-the-floor systems. Also the part cost difference between suspended tube and prefab panels is significant. Labor varies heavily depending on the job site for all methods, really.
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Robert Brown, Co-Owner

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Unknown

definitely true

And that goes for more than just suspended tube applications as well, I've seen some really sketchy slab specifications as well.
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Robert Brown, Co-Owner

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Dale Pickard

Fundamentally disagree

Hallmark may be a poor choice of words, uniquely useful characteristic may be more like it, but doesn't describe what I mean.

Radiant floor heating systems, good ones, are the only hydronic distribution systems that can operate at very low dts, (flue gas temp - room air) that can approach the temperatures at which forced air systems work. Remember, a FA system gulps return air at the room air temp.
This is where the rubber meets the road. All hydronic systems are handicapped in the sense that we must exchange heat twice. As one goes to improve the performance of the heating system as a whole, one must decrease that differential. This is just the physics and engineering of it. Not a lot of room for opinion.

I call horse puckey on the "extreme comfort" argument. Radiant floors, when well done, are a truly "comfortable" means of delivering heat, but if the truth be known, when contrasted with forced air, so are most hydronic systems. This is for reasons that all hydronic systems share....but I won't go into.

As far as "comfort" goes, here's a fact. Comfort is the absence of discomfort. Comfort isn't something that you notice, it's something that you don't notice.

As the efficiency of the house/heating system increases, so does comfort. Everything done to increase efficiency of the house / heating system, from a tight well insulated envelope to a low temperature heat delivery system increases comfort.

I get tired of the Radiant Panel Industry promoting radiant floor by what I call the "California Hot Tub" approach. They use the word "extreme" in front of comfort like they are selling Viagra. If you listen to the radiant panel marketers, having a radiant floor is like having a long continuous orgasm. The experience they refer to is literally unreal.

After all the unreal marketing hype about radiant floors fades away
we are left with the physics and the engineering of it which is real and is demonstrated in the performance and behavior of the system every minute it runs. You may think that you can constipate the distribution system and get away with it....but you can't. Mother nature never sleeps.

In our business, we try to do the very best, (or at least most appropriate) job of whatever approach we take. With modern hydronic heating and cooling technology we can produce economical systems that don't sacrifice efficiency or reliability , especially if we are not hung up on radiant floors uber alles.

I won't sacrifice somebodies misguided ideas of comfort for performance and effectiveness. Whether they know it or not, an efficient and effective heating system is a comfortable heating system. When we heat a building, we are maintaining its state of equilibrium; it's homeostais. We want to focus not on placing heat in the building but on maintaining the balance between the building's interior thermal environment and it's exterior thermal environment.

The most comfortable heating system is the one that you don't realize you have. Everybody works this way.

Dale

Unknown

and

regardless of the "facts" of the physics, there are in "fact" hundreds or thousands of suspended tube jobs out there working merrily and heating floors so they are warm, toasty, and comfortable.

You can argue until you are blue in the face, it won't change that fact. The only fact that matters to a lot of people. Not to me, and not to the clients who use my services typically unless they are on eof the 1-2% of jobs I run across in which suspended tube is really appropriate value, but to many out there, the facts speak for themselves.

And baseboard can be comfortable, absolutely. Nothing beats a warm floor though. That's not hype, that's real goods.
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Dale Pickard

4x4

Well,

I gues 4x4 can mean a lot of things these days. Believe it or not, also snows here in south central Montana. Here in Bozeman, Subaru Outbacks are all the rage. Quite different from a Dodge power wagon.

So ThermoFin systems don't have to be "Power Wagons"....they can be Subarus and still have plenty of ground clearance and traction.

Dale

Dale Pickard

I don't think so

They may be all these very subjective things, (warm, toasty, comfortable) at least to some people some of the time.

However they are also inefficient and ineffective and don't represent the best job one can do of radiant floor heating.
Also, they don't "work merrily", quite often they don't work at all, which is why we are having this discussion. We don't have this discussion about radiant floors that are designed and installed well. Isn't staple up the installation technique preferred by all the schlock radiant companies that the wetheads love to (correctly) disparage. It fits right in with the open loop water heaters and all the other substandard, questionable methods they use.

I urge my peers here not to design to the ragged edge of failure....otherwise known as the so called "do the math but always try to sell lots of plastic pipe into every job" approach. If nothing else, it's a stupid way to run a business, I think.

Dale

Unknown

You don't think so?

You think all or even a majority of suspended tube jobs are not heating the homes they are installed in adequately?

Could they be better? Sure. Or they could be baseboard, or FHA. Provided they were properly designed, the suspended tube job is still going to be more comfortable than baseboard, typically, or FHA, most definitely, and more efficient as well.

Fact is, not every job has the budget to do the kind of job we'd all like to do on every job. Sticking to the best is GREAT if you can do it. Not everyone can. Not every job needs to use 120 deg water or lower, not every job needs full indoor feedback and outdoor reset, not every job will even benefit that greatly from using radiant floor. The entire equation needs to be taken into account. Thermofin is top of the heap, no doubt, but there is a whole heap under it that would like to have good heat too!!!

_______________________________

Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner

NRTradiant.com

bill clinton_3

It's the same old song:

> And that goes for more than just suspended tube

> applications as well, I've seen some really

> sketchy slab specifications as well.

> _br_________________________________br_ Northeast

> Radiant Technology, LLC_br_ Robert Brown,

> Co-Owner _br_ _a

> href="http://www.NRTradiant.com"_NRTradiant.com_/a

> _

bill clinton_3

It's the same old song:

My way's better than your way; yeh, yeh, yeh.
The bottom line is in fact: "Buyer beware!" If you buy your heating system on the basis of lowest bid, you're much more likely to get burned than if you buy from someone whose knowledge, experience, and references and credentials you've checked. This is true if you buy a plate system (snap, crackle and pop), or a suspended tube system.

I have twelve years experience installing suspended systems and dozens of installations completed, and NO complaints about insufficient heat; LOTS of praise for comfort level. Even with carpets. The reason it works so well for me is that the climate here in the San Francisco area is quite mild (almost never below 30*) and insulation standards are high. That doesn't mean suspended tube systems are limited to mild climates: It means that if the heat load is low, 10 to 15 BTU/sq. ft., suspended tube can and does work quite nicely.

I repeat: 12 years, dozens of installations NO complaints about insufficient heat; LOTS of praise for the comfort level. The facts is the facts is the facts.