spyrovent

Mellow_2

If you put any vent in an old forced water system that has the old comprestion tank,what will happen? It would be a tank with no diaphram in a closed system. (1950's ish) I think it would keep filling the tank up because the air in the system would not return to the tank to keep the right level in the tank. This would take time but would happen. Right? This being said...... This Old House did this work for a lady who was having air problems, every year she had to have someone out bleed the pipes. This makes me wonder if she has to drain the pipes now. They put in a spyrovent and this will remove the air but the old style tanks need that air. Did they solve one problem and make another? thanks

Kal Row

wait a sec

waterlogging due to absobtion is a long long term process and the spirovent should help not hinder - on the other hand, if it's waterlogging rapidly then you need to look for an air leak in the expansion system - am i missing something? }~",",False"

ed wallace

spirovent

yes i think they created more problems is this the house where they installed a draw off in the tapping on the spirovent? if so i saw that episode they never showed the proper way to install a spirovent

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Glenn Harrison_2

If you use a...

B&G AirTrol Fitting on the compression tank, the air will stay in the tank.

Another option is instead of using a Spirovent brand air eliminator, use a B&G EAS Enhanced Air Separator and pipe the top of the separator into the compression tank.

Ken_8

Glenn, help us out here.

If what you say is true, how come we have to bleed systems with "flooded" expansion/compression tanks almost annually?

Everyone used Airtrol fittings "back when" - and everybody had the same problems of air moving to the "wrong places" within most hydronic heating systems.

Whether one "pumps away" or not - especially "back when," when the only pump anyone used was a T-110 or S-100 (with very "soft" head and really flat curves - making "pumping away" somewhat a moot necessity), the very problem you suggest being under control, by virtue of the Airtrol and/or EAS fittings mentioned above - still had major expansion/compression tank "flooding" problems. Meaning, the problem was recognized - but hardly "solved" by the fitting. The fitting merely delayed the inevitable absorbtion of air back into system high spots - it never eliminated it altogether!

In my 30+ years in the wet heat biz I have never, ever seen any make airtrol type fitting, coupled with a non-bladdered expansion/compression tank, NOT "flood."

The real problem is the re-absorbtion of the compression tank's air, migrating into the cooler system water on off cycles. There is no physical reason I can think of, to prevent the air from being re-absorbed into the water, disbursed in the systems high spots and result in system water from being "contaminated."

Is that not the very basis of why bladdered expansion tanks were invented and used almost without exception nowadays?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Glenn Harrison_2

O.K. let me remove part of my foot from my mouth

I said that mainly because I have seen Mr. Holohan answer the same way to this or similar questions, and quite honestly, the few systems I have that have airtrol fittings on them, don't have flooding problems. Now that's not to say that they maintain the air cushion perfectly, but they, in my experience, make a significan't improvement, over not having one. If you have seen otherwise, please enlighten me further, as I know you have done far more hydronics than I. If you want to acuse B&G and Dan H. of false advertising, please procede.

I do find it interesting that I'm not "everyone" in having problems with airtrol fittings. It makes me seriously wonder why. Again I'm not saying they are fullproof tho.

I also just suggested the EAS due to it being ADVERTISED that it worked similar to a spirovent, BUT with the 3/4" FPT tap on the top, the option to pipe it into an existing compression tank exists. If I remeber correctly, Taco has a similar air separator that can, as advertised, do the same.

Weezbo

hmmm...

i was under the impression that an older system no likey spiro vent or resorbers as it reduces the air cushion provided by the atmospheric and adds additional water with more D/O eventually eliminating the cushion and leaving the tank water logged.or if its got a make up with anti freeze water mix the air is replaced over time with an anti freeze water mixture.

Mellow_2

thanks

This is great info exchange. I agree that the airtrol fitting wood have helped but have a feeling the vent in this system will fight the design. If you bleed the air out of this system it fills the tank. then you have to drain the tank. The best solution is replace the tank(with a diaphram tank), if you keep the tank you should not use any vents. This will give you the longest time between drainings. luck to us all....

Mi39ke_2

Spiro Hoppers

We've used Spirovents with old steel compression tanks with good success. One of my technicians suggested simply piping from the bottom of the Spirovent to the floor, creating something of a trap, then up to the ATF tank fitting.

You've now eliminated the tank from the air removal part of the system and it is only doing the expansion job. Our oldest job is about 7-years old with no problems. Our next job will be done on Tuesday.

BTW, we've always had the best luck with Spirovents. The Tacos and B&G separators we've only tried once or twice, and have had problems with leaking vents.

Michael Ward

Glenn Harrison_2

That's good to hear...

I had wondered if you could do the trap to a compression tank from the bottom of a spirovent and have it work. Glad to hear it can be done.

Mellow_2

ssoo

from the bottom of the spyrovent to the floor and back to the ceiling. Wouldn't The labor and materials would be more than just threading a diapham style tank in the vent? Changing the tank would also add value to the job. the cust. paying the bill would see a new tank and think it will work better. This make people happy yes.....no.....maybe? Most people do not understand this stuff and don"t want to But they love new stuff. fun is....

Ken_8

Two things.

Kal's post above is absolutely correct. The nature of the air scoop is minimally impactful on the air in solution issue.

Dan is almost always right. Hell, he wrote the books we all now live by. However, Dan also got much of his initial hydronic training at W/E on Lawn Guy Land. They sold Airtrol fittings. They also solved a problem with the device, that being; rapid elimination of system air and "diverting it from eternal gurgling within pipes to near absolute assignment to the expansion/compression tank. It was a 90% solution to a 100% problem.

Dan has never proclaimed to be god and freely admitted he "borrowed" all his comments, books and theories from The Dead Men he studied. I must assume he bought the corporate line when doing ITT's bidding on the Ilse of Long and was in fact correct in believeing the Airtrol fitting was a god-send to HW heating systems. As good as the airtrol concept was in attempting to get system air into the expansion tank, it never addressed the air in "solution." Hell, we didin't even understand it ourselves until someone named and labelled it as NOT NORMAL nor !

Most of us, including me for years, assumed all systems had to be bled once every couple of years as S.O.P! I was wrong! And now we have bladder filled expansion tanks, pumping away - and never having to bleed a radiator or WHBB ever again!

Like the rest of us, Dan believed in a product that his employer marketed and that solved a whole bunch of problems with no other solution possible.

Things have changed. I doubt Dan would deny the problem was never 100% rectified with the AirTrol fitting and empty steel ceiling tank. It was merely a giant step in the right direction.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken D.

Expansion Tank

If the system with a standard expansion tank is piped properly, you will never have air problems. I never have and repair all systems I run into that do. As long as the customer agrees.