I am getting a new boiler, what brand should I get?

Ken_8

Hey Jim,

Could you cite an english language website/link for that EN 656 standard? I'd love to read it for myself.

Also, I note our pro-euro commentators refering to "very strict German standard" that they suggest is somehow universal and throughout all of europe. In reality, it is rather obscure, rarely adopted by the general population (outside the larger uban centers), and having personally seen and witnessed many boiler installed all over Germany, Austria, Ireland, all of the UK (except Wales), found most installs similar or inferior to ours with more than a sprinkling of leaks, bad oil smells, (just like our worst nightmatres over here).

They talk a lot of crap about superiority and strict polution standards and safety issues and universal quality standards that are ever so stringent. But, then you actually see the equipment and poor condition of it and understand the reality. This is 100% marketing hype - with very little substance.

Question: Would incredibly naieve Yanks think the stuff we ooh-and-ahhed over at the Messe/ISH/Frankfurt trade show really infer the equipment on display might actually represent the "typical" installed heating systems all over europe?

Answer: With the size of the marketing budget they throw around, we already have.

Those strict government "standards" the euro-lovers always suggest they must adhere to, are in fact of little consequence to any place except a few regions within one small nation out of maybe 30?



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DaveC

Ken, we got the standard...

through Gastec, I believe. Perhaps try www.gastec.com ?

Robert O'Connor_6

Well I think that

just like here NY Harbor price is a base from which other prices are set in the heating oil market. So I'm sure itt s the same from Rotterdam.

"Average " oil price here in maine is $1.55 a gallon so thats 75% of the quoted German price,

Clearly heating oil prices are not disproportianately inflated like gasoline costs (because of taxes) in Europe as compared to thre US market.

Also I took the Brookhaven tour and participated in the informal confrence on the Hermann burner.( Ken and Noel were there too!) You will be surprised to know Constantin, as I was that the lab was littered with european burners. That they have been testing them for a while . Also modulation was not unique to the Hermann .

Regards,

Robert

ME

Radiant Wizard

My Dearest KEN

We can all sit here and think that we know it all. But guess what we don't. There are many of you here (like yourself) that try to make rocket science out of something that is nothing more than common sense. The reason I posted concerning the AFUE was because someone asked. No more, no less. We all have the right to our opinions. I could do without your bashing.

Now, I'm no rocket scientist but simple physics tells me that if I have more surface area to absorb flue gases (ie. btu's), I can hold them longer and release them to the system faster (not up the chimmney or through the jacket) than I am more efficient. You can't argue that PERIOD. USABLE BTU's is what it's all about.

Now I'm tired of the same o'l same o'l argument. Why doesn't someone take me up on this. I'll provide a 3-pass boiler and all the bells and whistles to go with it and one of you big shots provide your Slant-Fin, Peerless, Burnham, so on and so forth and I'll find two houses to put them in that are identical in heat loss. We'll make sure everything is identical and let's have a little test of our own and put this argument to bed. Heat season is almost upon us amd I'm sure we would all like to see the results. Any takers, e-mail me and let's get the ball a rollin.

Ken_8

I fooled around www.gastec.com and

stumbled upon the quitessential document on why the euro's do what they do - and why.

Their boiler designs have nothing to do with superior engineering per se. But it has everything to do with abject fear. Fear of domination by others who have adequate supplies of natural resources and no fuel shortages and the bad economics rightfully associated with being dependent on other countrie's resources to support an energy based lifestyle.

For a real eye opener, read the following pdf file that just about says it all as to why they do what they do: http://europa.eu.int/comm/energy_transport/livrevert/brochure/dep_en.pdf

It has nothing to do with making better boilers for the sake of quality. It has everything to do with maintaining a way of life and dealing with energy shortfalls and a rather bleak outlook on the future of europe - using scare and fear tactics.

Are those fears real?

I suspect they are.

Their desperate contemplation of even more "nukes" than they already have, which is formidable by any measure, would last about 20 minutes here in the U.S. The tree huggers would sue the nukes out of existence - which they've already done rather successfully.

I urge each one reading this thread to read the euro manifesto I have cited the link for above. It will provide the basis of why the euros do what they do - and help us better understand their reasoning.


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Unknown

You'll provide WHICH 3 pass boiler

One of the ones that actually DO make the grade on efficiency and actually CAN take condensing temperatures, or do you mean the average boiler that you were talking about here before, with the high stack temperature compared to energy star rated pin type boilers?

Noel

Radiant Wizard

Noel

I'll provide a standard Biasi B-10 Series Boiler with a Beckett NX or Riello. Whichever you would like.

Unknown

Where are these buildings that you are providing?

Noel

Radiant Wizard

Noel

> Noel

Radiant Wizard

Noel

I'm in NY. If your serious about this e-mail me your number at radiantwizard@hotmail.com and we can talk about details. Thanks.......

Unknown

No

Keep it right here.

What type of system are you going to connect this to?

Let's take your choice of system.

Let's take buildings on a slab, or in a basement with water pipes that need to be kept above freezing. We don't make a boiler for unheated spaces. We don't try to get approved for that use.

Let's use the same water temperatures. No variable water temperature controls. Let's use the settings that give the same CO2 readings, and use the same fuel.

If your challenge is on the up and up, and you don't back out, spell out who is doing the testing, how you keep the doors opening and closing the same in both buildings, which companies will participate, how you are going to pay for this testing (which has already been done in a different manner) that you desire, how you intend to publish the results that is credible, I certainly won't back out.

It's your game. Set it up.

Noel

Ken_8

It's common sense okay

Something I suggest you may want to review some time.

It has nothing to do with how many passes you have! It obviously DOES have to do with rocket science!

Here's the retort you obviously need so you can figure this stuff out: It has to do with surface area - period! If you are so intent on telling us how wonderful a three-pass boiler is - why not a 4? Using your logic, a ten section would be even better right!

If a three pass boiler you are so unwittingly enamoured of has say, 160 square inches of surface area - and I could make a boiler one third the physical size - and add surface area totalling 200 square inches in a single pass - which do you think would be better?

Now if I also add turbulence and scrub the surfaces with very intimate pin type projections that have excellent thermal conductivity (as opposed to mildly ribbed or simply three more relatively flat surfaces - but need three passs to even get close to the 200 square inches I can achieve by better casting forms - then which would you buy?

I urge you to consider posting about a topic you have a bit more understanding of.

I don't think one is it.



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Tony_8

words in my mouth ?

> To state a three-pass design is the ultimate for

> efficiency somehow gets rather obviously derailed

> by the simple fact that truly efficient boilers

> e.g., 92%+, like the MZ, Munchkin, Ultra, etc.

> avoid the problematic three-pass configuration in

> favor of superior materials and simpler

> designs.

>

> Poorly engineered products that must

> resort to three pass designs do so because they

> lack the expertise to design 85% efficiency any

> other way!

>

> I suspect you are a casualty of

> that old adage, "If you can't compete with

> superior engineering, take up the slack with

> marketing hype."

>

> I still embrace my old saw,

> "Superior marketing will overcome inferior

> engineering - every time."

>

> The euro's wrote

> the book on that concept.

>

> And no one will deny

> its absolutely phenominal success.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 68&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Tony_8

words in my mouth ?

who said "ultimate" ? Ultras, Munchkins, etc. aren't even similar to Axemans right down to the fuel. And you must admit, the fuel used does make a difference in the design of a boiler. Funny how the 3 boilers you name are more Euro by design than American. Poorly engineered designs that must resort to 3-pass ? 3-pass IS the design. It's not new, it is simple, simpler than the Ultra, et al. It also hasn't been changed in the last 50 years to meet efficiency standards.
Let's try and pick fruit from the same tree to compare.
You seem so zealous to defend what you believe that you contradict yourself and make personal attacks on the others' intelligence regarding their own opinions and experiences. If your way was truly the only right way, we wouldn't have anything to discuss, would we ?
BTW, you suspect wrong. I make my own determinations regardless of hype. Your suspicions are assumptions without basis in fact.
Maybe I stepped into the middle of a personal thing here, looks like it by the posts below.
I'm going to go now, for a bit, and finish ordering my current project utilizing an Ultra.

\"Maine\" doug

So Joe, did you get a

satisfactory answer to your question? From all of this, are you able to make a decision on a boiler?

Perhaps the boiler answer is ME's favorite-- "It depends".

Mark Hunt

Stack temps?


Do 3-pass boilers have lower stack temps than single pass?

That would be the tell all wouldn't it?

Flame temp - stack temp + boiler temp = ?

Thermal efficiency, as in, how well do I transfer btu's THROUGH the transfer medium.

(Stolen from Jim Davis) AFUE = Assumed Ficticious Useless Efficiency.

Combustion efficiency tests are flawed unless you can determine the ACTUAL flame temp. Relying on even the BEST combustion analyser is still a false reading. They all assume complete combustion and a MAX flame temp.

I think you will not enjoy the outcome of that bet Wizard.

Noel knows what he is talking about, and he has the laws of physics on his side. Your position has only marketing on it's side.

Now when we start making boilers out of Kryptonite and we can scrub EVERY LAST BTU out of the burn so that only pure H2O is the by-product, then we will have the perfect boiler.

A side note here.
Understanding what happens when we set something on fire is no less impotant than figuring out a heat loss. I believe it's MORE important. Agreed?

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! SCIENCE!!!!!

P.S. Noel, go easy on him.

Mark H

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Ken_8

Tony,

I'm not zealous to defend my belief.

I'm anxious for you to stop suggesting there's something wonderful or superior about a boiler that requires three passes when other only need one - for the same efficiency.

That's it. No zeal. Just simple rocket science(:-o)

If you were refering to perhaps a 100HP C/B getting close to 90% operating efficiency, S.S. on instruments... that's another kettle of fish.

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Constantin

Cool! (or is it hot?)

While Ken may think that a modulating oil burner is a solution chasing a problem, I am glad that someone in the US has taken up testing them empirically to see what the benefits could be.

If indeed they are beneficial (and Firedragons simple low-high-low system is allegedly saving him 15%), the next question is which manufacturer will be crazy enough to attempt cracking the US oil burner market with the technology. I doubt it will happen before modulation becomes widespread in bigger hydronics markets like the EU or Japan - lots of beta testing opportunities there under less sue-happy conditions.

Having said that, it appears that commercial customers have benefitted from modulation on the oil side for quite some time (Heatwise comes to mind). Thus, the expertise in this country seems to exist, perhaps just not the market.

Anyway, all I was getting from the price quotes I got in Germany vs. Boston is that the oil prices in Germany are higher even though the base price (FOB harbor) is lower in the EU than over here. That in turn gives EU folks a bigger incentive to save energy as the payback period will be reduced. Small differences in the trend of energy prices can have a big impact... particularly if you decide to live in a particular domicile for a long time like EU folks commonly do.

For example, IIRC when we worked on the energy efficiency standards for residential AC/HP, the projection was that energy prices would fall in real terms over the 10-year period from 2001. We have another 7 years to go, but presently the trend for electricity seems to show a increase in terms of inflation-adjusted (i.e. real) prices rather than a decrease since 2001.

OTOH, I suppose the industry would have had a coronary if standards had been increased beyond the 13 SEER level that is coming in 2006.

Constantin

Thanks for the note.

EN656 seems to apply to mid-size gas boilers only. Given the extraordinary cost for the electronic copy (over at ANSI) I think I'm going to pass. As a homeowner, my interest in the topic was more theoretical so I cannot justify the expense. Thank you very much for clarifying the 100+% efficiency numbers though, playing with the heating value of gas would do that...

After doing some additional digging, I found the thread-spawning info from RadiantWizard to have been largely cut-and-pasted from the QHT web site. That should have been disclosed. Plus, the stuff on the QHT web site was arranged nicer... However, as a homeowner, it would be great to be able to look at heating or cooling systems in an integrated manner when making purchasing decisions. That is, to have all the energy draws present and accounted for.

Robert O'Connor_6

\"Who's your Daddy\"

CO2 numbers are suspect also. Most manufacturers ackknowledge that it's the fuel quality that drives the CO2 numbers . I take care of a few pin boilers boilers that run at 13% . They burn kerosene and have combustion air kits . No worries about air supply falling off due to contamination of the air band. I also service alot that run at 12% - 12.2% on #2 never a problem. Naturally if its a hostile air environment I set them lower .
Regards

Robert

ME

Robert O'Connor_6

I didn't

see an immediate use for the Hermann myself.

Chimney's and Boilers aren't ready to accomodate reduced input's withouth condensation.

I see more opppertunity to gain oil efficiency thru proper sizing and upgrading equipment. I commonly see 1200 sq ft houses burning 1.75 gal per hr with 1725 oil burners.

Regards

Robert

ME

Constantin

Speaking of which...

...should I make accomodations in the new chimney for condensate draining? I.e. have a 2" pipe at the base with a drain pan that allows any "gunk" that comes back down to get drained away?

The reason I ask is that I plan on dedicating a flue in the chimney for the boiler, yet standard hookup practice seems to be a "T" rather than just a 90° turn. Thus, most water coming down the liner would end up at the base of the chimney in a puddle...

So how does one deal with condensate draining down a chimney, particularly when using a non-condensing boiler? I suspect the simplest solution is to decrease efficiency and increase stack temps...

bob young

the de lux system

maybe you could design a dilution tank with a sump indirect discharge system. with a primer