I am getting a new boiler, what brand should I get?

Joe.G

Hi, i am getting a new hot water boiler, to heat my house and hot water. I was wondering what brand I should order, everyone tells me somthing else. Thanks a lot

Ken_8

And everyone will continue

to do so.

I would urge you to buy an American product that has been in business for over 50 years.

I would urge you to stay away from "exotic' boilers and marketing hype.

I would urge you to ask the installing contractor what his first and second choices are - and then ask him why?

I would urge you to consider the highest efficiency boiler you can afford that posesses all the attributes above.

Despite my not having offered a brand name, I'm sure someone will debate even the most fundamental basics posted above. But I wouldn't read them(:-o)

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Jeff Lawrence_24

I gotta agree

With Ken somewhat.

My response is shorter. Pick a contractor and let him (or her) use the brand they know best.

If you use an imported brand, there possibly may be problems down the road getting parts.

Let the flames begin!

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LEAD PIPE

I'm just a home owner but I got this boiler last year and my heating bills were cut in half. It's worth looking into. If you do go with it make sure you get the right installer or you be back here asking a lot of questions. Good luck
http://www.weil-mclain.com/ultra/modelultra.htm

bob young

burnham

BURNHAM You cannot go wrong.

Frank_22

what to choose?????

I happen to like a boiler with steel push nipples and factory support. I've installed over 2500 metal monsters and I personally would purchase a Peerless boiler.

DaveGateway

More info

Gas or oil? Direct vent or chimney? Using radiators or fintube baseboard? Will you use an indirect HW tank or are you looking for a combo unit? Many questions before any answers.

Joe.G

Gas or oil? oil, Direct vent or chimney? chimney, Using radiators or fintube baseboard? old cast iron radiators, Will you use an indirect HW tank or are you looking for a combo unit? I am thinking about going indirect I don't want to run out of hot water so it needs to last for hours at a time sometimes.

Radiant Wizard

Biasi

Take a look at a Biasi. www.qhtinc.com . This is a 3-pass boiler at the price point of a typical american pin-style boiler. Why the 3-pass? More surface area for flue gas passage. What this means is that you will have less btu's going up the chimmeny. Four inches of insulation. Less heat loss through the jacket. GG20 Flex Cast Iron with stainless steel push nipple. Lifetime Warranty. If the iron ever cracks they will replace 100 percent plus they will give you $500.00. Low mass typical B-10/4 110,000 MBH weighs only 307lbs and holds only 4.7 gal of water. Boiler has very quick repsonse time (heats up the water quicker). There are a few more advantages so check out www.qhtinc.com .

PS. For those that are all caught up on AFUE (Efficiency ratings) they don't mean squat. System efficicency is what it's all about not burner efficiency.

DaveC

An Indirect Water Heater is a great choice...

make sure your installer follows the piping specs (min. diameter, max. length, zone valve pressure drop, etc.) and consider priority zoning if using a small BTUH input boiler, to get the best recovery out of it. Hope this helps!

DaveGateway

Agree wih the Wizard

The Biasi is an excellent alternative to a Buderus. Less water content at a great price. Team it up with a Carlin or Riello burner, Tekmar controls, and a PhaseIII indirect and you'll be set.

Constantin

Second Some of the Suggestions Above

However, the answer to your question depends in part on how you intend to heat your house. I'm a mere homeowner myself, but our recent home renovation (i.e. gut job) has allowed me complete freedom WRT heating choices.

The first question you have to ask yourself is what the fuel source ought to be. Most of the USA heats by Gas, followed by oil, electricity, and other fuel sources (wood, solar, etc.). Take a look at the local fuel prices vs. typical heat plant efficiency to see which fuel is least expensive in your area. For example, in Boston the price of fuel oil per BTU is about 40% lower than that of city gas.

Next, consider what kind of heat emitters you are going to use inside the house. A condensing boiler makes the most sense with radiant heat, though baseboard and conventional radiators work well also. Steam radiators do not AFAIK offer themselves to be heated via condensing boilers.

Note, there is a strong preference away from condensing oil boilers due to the corrosive nature of US fuel oil (condensing gas boilers are OK). Next, ask yourself how much you have to heat each year and then compare the possible fuel savings each year vs. the initially higher cost for a high-efficiency boiler.

Here are some of the equipment choices out there.

• Viessmann Vitodens or Vitola: Probably the Rolls-Royce of the heating industry. Great units, by all accounts and ideally suited for use with radiant floor heat. Made in Germany.
• HTP Munchkin: Small, powerful, efficient gas condensing boiler. Made in MA.
• Burnham V-8 or Opus: Excellent boilers from a company with a solid reputation. Burnham also offers units for steam heat. Made in RI, IIRC.
• Weil-McLain Ultra Another condensing gas unit.
• Buderus G115 or G124X: Solid oil or gas products from Germany.

I would google all of the above companies and have a deeper look at their products. See which make the most sense for your application, then put together a list of boilers that make sense. Next, find out what boilers your installer is familiar with, which brands are well-stocked at the local supply-house, and which brands the maintenance folks at the local fuel company are familiar with. Then go with a brand that covers hopefully all your preferences, namely cost, efficiency, and maintainability.

R. Kalia

yeah!

> to do so.

>

> I would urge you to buy an American

> product that has been in business for over 50

> years.

>

> I would urge you to stay away from

> "exotic' boilers and marketing hype.


Yeah, exotic = foreign.

Remember, if you don't buy an American boiler, you are helping Bin Laden.

Jim Erhardt

AFUE

"For those that are all caught up on AFUE (Efficiency ratings) they don't mean squat. System efficicency is what it's all about not burner efficiency."

FYI - While the AFUE rating system is not perfect (for example, it does not factor gains from outdoor reset), it is a reasonable measure of appliance efficiency, especially for comparing one unit to another. AFUE ratings factor in boiler/furnace standby losses as well, not just combustion efficiency.

"System efficiency" is a very valid point, especially in scorched air systems. Connecting a 92% AFUE condensing furnace to an old ductwork system with lots of air leaks in unconditioned areas of the structure will certainly not yield a 92% efficent system. In hot-water systems, excessive pick-up losses (like those encountered in old gravity systems) and over sizing the boiler can hurt system efficiency as well.

While the AFUE rating of the boiler is indeed only part of the "system efficiency" equation, the AFUE rating system provides a reasonable benchmark for boiler efficiency comparison, all other factors being equal.

Unknown

Correction

Thanks for the kind words regarding our company and products. I do, however, have to add a correction to your statement. Our products are not made in RI or IIRC. They are made in the "Garden City" of Lancaster, PA and our boiler castings are made in our own foundry in Zanesville, Ohio. I'm not sure where you got the RI connection from other than I happen to work out of my home office here in RI. Thanks.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

Constantin

Hi Glenn!

IIRC is shorthand for "If I recall correctly", which, evidently, I did not. I guess that somehow you being in RI made me think that the rest of Burnham would be there also.

I'd correct it, except my new CPU has the invision board confused. Sorry!

Unknown

No Problem

That is an easy assumption. that particular abbreviation that I hadn't seen used and wasn't quite sure of what you may have been implying. Thanks for the clarification.

Glenn

Jed_2

simple question

I have heard it said that if European "efficiency standards" were applied to US manufactured boilers, most would not meet that standard. Could some one clarify, comment, elaborate? It continually comes around that the European heating system requirements for continued service hold a MUCH higher priority than ever considered in the United States of America. What was that price you paid for gas today?

Jed

Steamhead

Joe, a good boiler is a good boiler

what counts the most is how well the boiler is installed. The best boiler in the world isn't worth much if not properly installed. Try the Find a Professional page of this site to locate a good heating contractor near you. If you're in the Baltimore area, e-mail me!

That said- I like Burnham, Columbia, Peerless and Weil-McLain, in alphabetical order. These are the ones I have the most experience with, and you can't go wrong with any of them when properly installed. I've heard many good things about Crown and Dunkirk boilers too. And of course we have many German boiler afictionados here- Buderus and Viessman. Also, Columbia markets a version of the Biasi which I believe is just as efficient, and adds the support of an American company.

Indirect heaters are great. I have a 40-gallon Triangle Phase 3 running not far from my house that the owners and their teenagers have not been able to deplete. Want to bet you know what I'm going to install when my present tank dies?



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Steamhead

Jed, can you tell us

more about how European efficiency standards are formulated and applied? How do they compare to AFUE?

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JB_2

boilers

whats wrong with u.s. oil?

JB_2

joe- sounds like steam (sorry mike) hit it square. jb.

JB_2

boilers

joe- steamhead hit it (sorry frank) right on the noggin.jb.

Jed_2

No, Frank

That's why I posted the question. I don't know what they use to evaluate a boiler's efficiency rating. but I am curious.

Jed

Radiant Wizard

US AFUE vs European Standard

1) AFUE Ratings: The US method for establishing efficiency is the Annual Fuel Utilization Efficiency rating, or AFUE. This method has serious flaws as looks at only steady state combustion to determine the overall system efficiency. No consideration is given to system mass, boiler design and materials, off cycle cooling, jacket heat losses, the common method of installation, or the manner in which the boiler is operated. The major rating flaws are as follows:

The boiler combustion is typically tested at 12.5-13.0% CO2 which is the range where the equipment should operate for maximum heat release from the fuel. However, to reduce field problems due to poor boiler design and serviceability limitations, the US manufacturers instruct the installers to run the boilers at 10.5-11.0% CO2. As CO2 is actually a measurement of flame (chamber) temperature, dropping the CO2 reduces the temperatures by 250-300º, and, conversely, increases the stack temperature by 150-200º.

Most US boilers carry multiple boiler ratings for a single unit. The AFUE testing is typically done at the lowest firing rate, which drops the stack temperature, and enhances the testing. However, in actual installations, the higher firing rates are typically installed, increasing the flue temperatures to 450-550º, which reduces the actual field operating efficiencies.

Boiler testing is accomplished at "steady state", with the boiler operating between the aquastat set points. As all of the US cast iron boilers are made from brittle cast iron, the US manufacturers require that the boiler operate in a zone from 140º to 200º, which insures that the cast iron will not be damaged by low return water temperatures. Testing by this format alone totally ignores other, more efficient operating schemes, such as use of an outside reset control which sets boiler operating temperatures based on demand, or even the "cold start" method which allows the boiler temperature to run all the way down, until there is a call for heat.

During the AFUE testing, very little consideration is given to off cycle cooling. The standard "pin type" US boiler requires a chamber that is open to the chimney, and is subject to the negative draft created by the chimney. This creates a situation where the chimney basically vacuums the heat from the chamber, both during operation, creating high stack temperatures, and during the off cycle, creating continuous cooling of the appliance.

Also not considered during the qualification testing is boiler design or mass. The typical "pin type" boiler is a single pass design, with a mass weight of cast iron and water in excess of 650#, and a chamber flue pass age length of approximately 2.5’-3’. The bottom line is that boiler design is in reality simple physics, and this tells us that the larger the mass, the more Btu’s you need, and therefore, the more fuel consumed. Also, the shorter the flue passes, the less cross sectional area and time you have for heat absorption.

Finally, there are other issues not seriously considered in the AFUE rating system, such as jacket heat loss, which can exceed 5%of the available Btu’s, or the radiational cooling effect of the barometric damper, which is required for safe operation on single pass boilers.

In the final analysis, considering all the factors presented, although a conventional boiler can demonstrate an AFUE rating of 82-84%, the actual thermal efficiency of these units can be as low as 56%.


A Better Efficiency Model: The Europeans, who every day face energy costs 2-3 times higher than the US, have developed significantly more efficient equipment, and a much more accurate system for determining the actual efficiency. Their rating system looks at all aspects of thermal efficiency, and current efficiency requirements for boilers exceed 89% for the entire system. The major rating requirements are as follows:

All boilers must operate during testing and in the field at 13.0+ % Co2, which allows for maximum heat release from the fuel. This performance level is verified during the annual field efficiency test, which is mandated by the manufacture, and verified by law. The standard boiler design is very tight, creating a forced draft situation which compresses the flame in the chamber, and releases the maximum Btu’s.

European standards require a single firing rate for each boiler, which typically is the maximally efficient rate for that boiler. These rates are verified during testing, and, again, during the annual field efficiency testing.

It is mandatory that European cast iron boilers be manufactured from GG20 cast, which is flexible and allows for low return water temperatures without damaging the boiler. Control schemes such as cold start, and outside temperature reset are common, and their efficiencies are verified during testing. The testing procedures even include the total electrical draw of the burners, circulators, etc., so low amperage draw units are common.

The standard European boiler design is a multi-pass, forced draft unit, which is very tight, and is insulated from the chimney draw. The burner is required to force the flue gasses thru the system, and therefore, when the burner is off there is very little off cycle temperature loss, as the chimney cannot draw on the chamber. In addition, during the operating cycle, the flue temperatures range from 325-350º and consist of Btu’s not absorbed due to other system considerations such as chimney condensation, fuel constituents, etc.

These boilers are low mass, multi-pass units which weigh 50% less than conventional pin type boilers, and typically have water contents 50-60% lower. This yields a total mass considerably lower than pin boilers, and requires considerably less fuel to operate, which again, is simple physics. It is not uncommon to see a 100,000 Btu system with a total mass of 347#. In addition, as these units are at least three pass by design, the actual flue passage lengths are 6’-7’, which provides for a much longer flue gas contact time, and substantial heat absorption.

Serious consideration is given to issues such as jacket loss, and other installation requirements like barometric dampers, which rob heat from the system. The typical European boiler has a 3" insulation blanket, wrapped over the boiler block, which virtually eliminates jacket loss, and keeps the heat in the boiler where it belongs. The barometric damper is used only where other installation considerations, such as a low or high draft chimney, are present, or, in the case of natural gas, where a double acting barometric is required by code.

Taking all these facts into consideration, most European boilers end up with an AFUE rating exceeding 87%, and a real thermal efficiency in the range of 83-85%. The difference between the efficiency of pin type boilers, and low mass, multi-pass boilers can easily exceed an annual fuel savings of 30-40%. In addition, as there are low Nox units, which meet or exceed all North American standards, now available, we can clean up the environment, while saving a ton of money.

Ken_8

WELL WRITTEN!

I can't recall a better piece of "mis-information" written since Tom Lenman informed us he invented PEX and saved europe single-handedly from all the "mistakes" we stupid Americans had engaged in.

Not only has the author succumbed to a very Big Daddy, he has thrown rational thought under a bus and not even stopped to look back at the mangled body formerly known as "truth."

If Big Daddy-ism ever needs a poster boy, I nominate radiantwizard as the most logical candidate. The post above certifies his eligibility and credential more than just "worthy."

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Tony_8

Well written indeed !

While Ken may think the Wizard is brainwashed, my humble experience shows that 3-pass and low-mass boilers save fuel. PERIOD. There are USA made boilers that rival the ones Ken seems to despise, or at least mistrust. Dynatherm and Axeman-Anderson are two. I service an Axeman that's pushing 50 and sips fuel. You can't argue with Physics. Well, you can, but it's all rhetoric

Okay Ken, you can attack me now

Really, installer/servicer knowledge and comfort of and with the product IS most important to the homeowner. After all, that's who's got to live with the decisions that are made.

Robert O'Connor_6

Radiant Wizard - German fuel costs

Regarding the point made about European heating oil cost.

When I was in Frankfurt a few years back with NAOHSM it was determined that #2 fuel was pretty close in price to the states.Also when I travelled in the Basque region of Spain last year I found the same to be true.

There was a great difference in price for gasoline. This was attributed to taxes.

Regards

Robert

ME

Ken_8

Absolutely amazing!

To state a three-pass design is the ultimate for efficiency somehow gets rather obviously derailed by the simple fact that truly efficient boilers e.g., 92%+, like the MZ, Munchkin, Ultra, etc. avoid the problematic three-pass configuration in favor of superior materials and simpler designs.

Poorly engineered products that must resort to three pass designs, do so because they lack the expertise to design 85% efficiency any other way!

I suspect you are a casualty of that old adage, "If you can't compete with superior engineering, take up the slack with marketing hype."

I still embrace my old saw, "Superior marketing will overcome inferior engineering - every time."

The euro's wrote the book on that concept.

And no one will deny the euro boiler's absolutely phenominal success. Except perhaps Vallaint - the biggest failed "success" of them all.

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Ken_8

True!

At least that's what Dan posted some time ago when I suggested the euro's had no choice in boiler designs. The cost of fuel drove the process, not some alleged desire to built the best and become the "world leaders in quality and efficiency."

Fuel has always been very expensive in europe, but the government underwrites the cost containment of heating oil - under the notion that vehicles must pay much more for a gallon of diesel/#2 to underwrite the typical governmen taxation offsets to make the "necessity" of home comfort more "reasonable."

You must have heat in a cold european winter. However, they answer the traffic problems by subsidizing home heating oil expense by outrageous taxation of motor fuels. Giving them credit, the mass transportation system is THE answer. And they've delivered in that venue better than anywhere in the world - with the possible exception of Japan.

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Robert O'Connor_6

I hadn't

heard a subsidy was taking place. It would be interesting to check the market prices against NY Harbor per gallon to see.

There is no doubt that EU countries promote enrgy efficiencies all across the spectrum. They do so to a much greater extent than we do.

Regards

Robert

ME

Robert O'Connor_6

Actually

It looks like heating oil at Rotterdam is a bit cheaper than NY Harbor.

I understand that "gasoil" is what their oil burners burn and that it it is a little more refined that our #2. Closer to Kero

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/weekly_petroleum_status_report/current/pdf/table14.pdf

Can anyone shed any light on how this data should be interperted?

Regards

Robert

ME

Unknown

Regarding 85% efficiencies

Baisi ISN'T 85%. Too little surface area. Stack temp is too high.

Regarding running it at condensing temperatures. It'll condense. Nothing in it's design prevents it. The Iron Type has nothing to do with it.

We've been running hot boilers with tankless coils on high mass radiator systems longer than you've been in the trade. No problems, mate.

Efficiency in the boiler is measured by CO2, water temp, and exhaust temp. The Baisi is average in this respect.

I guess that leaves the warranty. How much warranty will there be left in 27 years, just out of curiosity? Got anything in writing that spells this out on a system with a 110° supply temp?

Noel Murdough

Slant/Fin Corp.

DaveC

This is the second time...

that I have seen this person post this misinformation on AFUE. I think he quotes it from directly from the Euro company's literature. It doesn't say much for his/their knowledge/honesty, whichever they are lacking. I had taken the time to provide the facts last time. It's kind of unbelievable to see the same B.S. posted again.

Ken_8

Good call!

> that I have seen this person post this

> misinformation on AFUE. I think he quotes it from

> directly from the Euro company's literature. It

> doesn't say much for his/their knowledge/honesty,

> whichever they are lacking. I had taken the time

> to provide the facts last time. It's kind of

> unbelievable to see the same B.S. posted again.





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Ken_8

Jim, it's the same old story...

If you can't compete using the AFUE standards - suggest they are "unfare." It is the major weakness of the "pro-euro" posturing.

You want to sell in the U.S.? Use our standards.

What don't they understand?

Unlike the euros, which are heavily lobbied and promulgate "standards" which are the direct result of exclusionary motives by the very manufacturers that should be regulated - we, have ASHRAE, ANSI, etc, (true third, independent parties) making our standards.

Now, you don't suppose THAT makes any difference now do you?

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Jim Erhardt

Jim S., I believe some of the info....

...is coming from an "editorial" on AFUE on the Energy Kenetics website.

BTW, if you take *any* sealed combustion boiler and install it within the "heated envelope" of the structure, it's seasonal efficiency will essentially equal combustion efficency - see what I mean?

Constantin

Just keep in mind...

... the numbers that table is quoting are for ship-size deliveries, not the kind of stuff to hang a hat on as far as end-user prices go. The distribution systems, taxation, and market competiveness issues will cloud any analysis rather quickly. All things being equal, oil and gasoline would be cheaper in the EU than it is in the US (at least judging by the chart).

It is my understanding that none of the states in the EU actually subsidize heating oil, except in need cases (much like the US states). I just called my father and his latest delivery of heating oil cost euro 0.45 per liter or about $2 per gallon (at a exchange rate of 1.2 US$/euro). That's significantly higher than the average in Boston, where year-long contracts could be had for as low as $1.15/gallon. Since my father does not live in the boondocks, the above price may be fairly representative for Germany.

The way I would interpret this data it's that the actual feedstock cost has very little to do with ultimate pump prices either for heating and/or automobile fuel prices. So, even though heating oil prices are about 1.5x higher in Germany than in the US, that cost difference blanches in comparison to the transportation fuel price differences, which are closer to 4x.

However, that does not take away from the fact that EU homeowners and car owners have a much better economic incentive to save fuel where possible. Hence, the claim that fuel efficiency drives EU designs more so than US designs may in fact be true. After all, only now is the (Austrian?) Hermann modulating oil burner being tested in the US at Brookhaven (IIRC). Also note the much higher number of condensing oil boiler choices in the EU, something only made possible by a mandate for cleaner-burning fuels. Furthermore, boilers are required to be inspected and adjusted every year. If the boiler does not pass efficiency tests, it has to be replaced (at least in Germany).

This is not to say that US boiler manufacturers do not look at efficiency as part of their design criteria. However, from my homeowners view of the industry offerings, it does rank as highly as first-time-cost, maintainability, etc. As long as folks plan to move a lot around (every 7 years is standard in the US), there is no reason to install a more expensive system whose payoff is long-term.

Constantin

Thank you for your long and informative post

While some members of the community here feel that it's a bit propagandistic, I liked the concepts you mentioned, such as measuring whole system energy usage, typical installation conditions, etc. This reminds me somewhat of the SEER standard I worked with while helping the DoE set the coming residential AC/HP energy efficiency standards in the US.

While the SEER standard is not perfect by any means, it does allow the US government to set efficieny standards that benefit everyone on average. Naturally, folks that use cooling systems less than average will have a harder time justifying the higher initial cost than those who'll use them more. However, these standards do force intial-price-sensitive consumers to buy (and benefit from) better equipment.

Do you have a source for the EU standards? In particular, I'd like to better understand the above 100% efficiency ratings for condensing boiler systems. IIRC, it had something to do with condensing systems being more efficient than the conventional systems for which the standard was written.

DaveC

The European Standard that specifies the efficiency...

tests for mid-sized gas fired boilers is EN 656.

The efficiency calculation is thermally based, and only run at steady-state, I believe. Energy in (based on gas flow rate and heating value), divided by energy out (based on water flow rate and temperature difference). They use what's described as a "lower heating value" (about 10 % lower) for the gas input within the equation, hence the ridiculous efficiencies over 100 % can be calculated. We use the (actual) "higher heating value" of the gas, measured in the lab by a calorimeter at the same time the AFUE test is underway. Our AFUE tests DO account for startup and off time losses, it not just a measure of steady-state conditions. Hope this clarifies some things.


If any of this is not accurate, it is because of my own misinformation, but not an attempt to fool anyone.

Troy_3

Munchkin or Viessmann

We use Munchkin and Viessmann. Both match well to all emitters and indirect water heaters. Make sure the contractor you choose is trained in whatever boiler you choose. The best boiler is scrap if it isn't installed and serviced correctly.