Plumbing Inspector.....

John Starcher_4

....with this?

Had a plumbing inspection today by the State Inspector. Most of our work is residential, and we deal with the County folks. Any commercial work has to go through State of Ohio, but we rarely do any.

Here's the deal: customer is renovating a building and making a coffee shop. His engineer drew up the plumbing isometric, we install the rough DWV, and call for inspection. This building has no basement, only crawlspace, and the main building drain runs through it.

Inspector shows up, checks it all out, then starts giving my guy a mouth full of you-know-what about the crawlspace piping. Not because there's anything wrong with it, but because it's in the crawlspace and he can't see it!!! He tells my man that WE have to cut holes in the subfloor so that he can visually inspect the crawlspace piping 'cuz afterall he's sixty-some years old and HE DOESN'T CRAWL UNDER BUILDINGS!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, the County plumbing inspector crawls under homes with us all the time, and never says a word about it. My man explains this to the State inspector, who basically responds that my guy is lying to him! Unbelievable!!!!!!

I'm thinking about calling the State plumbing office to a:verify is the inspector can make me cut holes in my customer's floor, and b:complain about what a jerk the inspector is.

Have any of you ever had an experience like this????

Constantin

Your experience seems odd at the very least

I would think that if the inspector is so interested in the sub-floor drainage that he'd go down on his belly and have a look at it himself. Otherwise, you could suggest sending someone down there with a digital camera to take pictures to show him.

Cutting holes in the sub-floor makes no sense from any perspective. Hopefully, the state plumbing board will make the inspector enforce the law the next time instead of making up his own. Yikes!

Jim Walls

Plumbing inspectors

Jim Walls

Plumbing inspectors

John,
When I first started,1978,Columbus Ohio, if there were no steps into a basement some of the inspectors would not do an U.G. inspection. I'm not sure if this was a city requiremnet or an individual thing,but they would not even use a ladder if it was left at the site, safety issue, with no one else on site. I was taught to turn all U.G. lettering up so they could stand on the foundation wall and read if the pipe was schedule 40, and to count spaces between lettering to determine trap to vent distance, distance of floor drain connection from base of stack etc,,,,,,,
I once even heard one wanted the gauge installed on a pipe extended to the top of the masonary near an outside wall to check the pressure and make sure the gauge was functional.
I have had a State Inspector warn a G.C. about laying up masonary walls around ANY piping which had not been at least visually inspected,(sinks) and let them know if it happened again the walls would come down (fortunately I had taken pictures to show the installation)
The inspector you are refering to is well within the code & his right to see the piping,,,,,,,,,,however, I have found the State to be very helpful & understanding if approached on similar issues. If possible, take some pictures, and plead your case.
Lettering,,,,,,,,,,,one of the guys at work approached me just last Saturday & said,"you would be very proud of me,,,,,,,,I made a potato launcher with PVC pipe the other day and all of the letters are facing up!

John Starcher_4

Thanks, Jim.

That was one option I was going to propose - taking digital pictures for him.

I've just never had an inspector act this way before. I've had state inspections (different inspectors) many times where a little (and it really is a little in this case - there's a trap door in the floor,and he would merely have to enter through it and all would be available for his viewing pleasure without having to actually crawl anywhere!!) crawling involved. No one has ever demanded I cut holes in the floor before!

Oh well.....maybe he had an argument with his wife this morning and I'm paying for it?

Starch

Brian_19

inspectors

I would tell him to go pound sand.

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John Starcher_4

Brian....

....BELIEVE ME, that's what my man wanted to do!!!!

Fortunately, rational thought resumed control of him ;-0

Starch

Nick Z._2

John.....

I had a homeowner call the state once because the insp. wasn't showing up soon enough.Well, every insp. after that flunked us for something.Up to that point everything passed.
I would only go over his head as a last resort.
good luck!

John Starcher_4

I hear ya', Nick!

That was in the back of my mind all along - definitely don't want to cause future headaches for myself.

Starch

Dave Yates (PAH)

My list is long

regarding abuses of power by plumbing inspectors and for about three decades, I swallowed my tongue too. That was, until the week we were burying my father-in-law and a rogue PI cost us a bunch of money. The gloves came off & the fur flew. He lost - big time. Since that time, we became a no-nonsense firm that does not tolerate abuse from PI's. But, once we started down that road, I knew our work had to be "by the book" or we'd suffer the consequences.

If you've provided him a safe entry to that crawl space, he's on his own to obtain a look-see. It'd be a cold day in hell before I'd cut up the floors. If he can't do his job, he should resign.

He's got a job to do & so do you - both should be done as professionals. He's failed miserably. Time is money & there's no legit reason for you to suffer at his hand. The code books cover this scenario by absolving the township from providing him a free legal defense if he abuses his powers.

You are the professional who had to learn the craft over many years and be tested to confirm your competence. He was likely appointed without the need for any practical prior experience.

Most PI's do a pretty good job and a few excell at being great, but there's a few who relish the power trip a bit too much.

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John Starcher_4

It gets better, Dave.

I talked to my guy at the end of the day. He was literally beside himself, as he's never had a failed inspection.....EVER! This inspector really ticked him off.

The state guy was ranting and raving about the whole crawlspace issue, and actually told my guy to grab his sawzall and start cutting up the floor, or he was gonna red tag him. My man, utilizing every iota of self control that he could muster, asked the inspector where he wanted the holes cut. The inspector tells him, "I want the whole floor out of here so I can see every thing you did."

The entire floor.

Not just a few inspection holes.

The entire floor.



I'm talking about 800 or so square feet of floor.



The entire floor.


My man told him to do what he had to do, but he was NOT going to start cutting out the ENTIRE floor. The inspector then tells him that he'll give him a partial approval so that he doesn't have to stop work.


Huh?



Oh, and get this.....the inspector was also peeved because he felt one of the vent pipes was too big. Can you ever recall being admonished by an AHJ for having too large of a vent? Me either. We simply followed the approved isometric for our installation. The inspector said we wasted money because a smaller vent could be used!

I'm thinking lack of proper medication here?

We'll be on the phone with Columbus in the morning, hopefully to get a resolution to this nightmare.

God, I need a beer!

Starch

Mike Kraft_2

good god !!!

Starch............I am bewildered........losing your mind eh?I'm wordless...........I hope this works smooth for you brother.Keep us informed.

The best at you,

cheese

John Starcher_4

Cheese....

....I'm right there with you, bro'

Bewildered, that is.

I've been doing this for over twenty years now, and I can honestly say that this is a first.

I'll definitely keep the Wall posted as to the outcome of this debacle.

My mantra returns......"Never, ever say that you've seen it all.........."

Starch

Mike Kraft_2

I have had similar

tale of woe.Nose to nose.........plumber vs. the self annointed badge wearing official...............I lost it,he rebutted,I lost it again,he rebutted again........I caved like a child:( hehehehhe.bad enough we gotta go in the crawl....you know whatta I mean:)

cheese

Dave Yates (PAH)

best

check that inspector's vehicle for an open can of PVC primer!

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Mike Kraft_2

or............

an open can of sardines under the seat.

cheese

bob young

crunch time

Sounds like it time to ask the chief inspector what the final ruling is going to be.had this happen a few times in n.y.c.and it can get ugly. cutting an entire floor for inspection is insane. Dave, great article in july contractor magazine.

Weezbo

He musta been inspecting ABS DWV in a confined area...

too long before stopping by your job:) Well he sure sounds zealous...maybe that his answer to not be given an acceptable bribe:)) I jokes dont take it to heart..the P.I.sounds like he's the one who needs the plumbing checked...maybe the wiring while they are about it.:)) sorry i find it difficult to stop when i start .Perhaps they could check whats under the roof at that time:)) maybe you should ask him for the truss designe sheet...who can tell whats bothering the man. Did he have an exceptionaly High Voice? )

Grumpy_2

Call the State

John, call Gary Krebs in Columbus. His phone number is 614-644-3153. He will give you a definitive ruling on this mess, and will also rein in the over zealous fool of an inspector. All the state inspectors report to him!

jackchips_2

As an

inspector and a contrarian it's always best to get both sides of a story before making wild accusations either way.

It seems the most logical avenue at the present is to meet with your employee and the inspector on site and try to work out an agreeable solution. If the PI was having a bad day he may actually regret some of the things he said.

It's also possible, if the disagreement became heated, he was aggravated to the point of showing his authority and said some things that were over the top.

If that meeting worked out poorly you would have every right to call his superior but I would use that as a last resort. My suggestion is that you actually ask him if he preferred you call his office for another opinion or for someone to go in the crawl space for him.

Sugar, not vinegar?

Kal Row

i second that

dont go over his head - on the other hand, "through" his head....;)

Ken_8

Here's your solution!

It's called the written word. It's called a letter - the lost art of the small American Businessmen. It has the power of ten.

Send it to him. Send it certified, return receipt requested. Suggest he cite the code basis for denying inspection and press that point until he reponds. Explain the situtaion with as much detail as needed - keeping the direction of the letter as the basis of an appeal to a higher authority. Perhaps mention your intention to appeal his decision not to inspect with a two pronged commentary. The first being his legal basis of denial; second, his unprofessional manner in the workplace.

This is the "tool" you should use. Works most of the time. Trust me. I know of what I speak.

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Mad Dog

I agree with Dave

We pay the price as well...for not playing footsie with the rogue ones, but I just can't bring myself to letting them own me. Mad Dog

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Dave Yates (PAH)

thanks

Don't know why that Newcomen Society book is in our archives, but it was a treat read about the origins of NIBCO's foundry.

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Hey Dog

We paid a price for a while as each one of the PI's tried playing hard ball. Unfortunately for them, we'd been doing our work to code all along(G). The interesting thing that developed, was their respect for our work - all of which was due to their scrutinizing it in great detail in hopes of flunking the work. Part of their hesitation in arbitrary rulings came about from one such abuse that I took to the limit by refusing to comply with the PI's directions to alter work that was already in compliance. He attempted to place a stop work order on the job, but the building inspector refused to go along with his ruling. He was demoted as a result of the abusive behavior.

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jim walls_3

inspector

The oversized vent is a new one, "what's up with that", this is one item that has really bothered me since the new code came into affect,,,,,,,,,,,follow the drawings,if it shows a vent on the iso no venting exception changes unless the engineer issues a new drwg because the owner has paid for that pipe. Well, now if your plumber had elected to downsize that vent then according to the rules you would have had to have the engineer or designer issue a new drawing to the state & possibly issue the owner a credit, which in the end costs you time & money just to handle the extra work!
I should have asked this yesterday, was the flooring original? In other words was the flooring up & pipe exposed at any time during the construction? Is the piping all new or did you tie into existing? This could affect how they react.

John Starcher_4

All the piping.....

....in the crawlspace is new. The floor was not removed to do the installation. We did the installation by using the existing trap door to gain access.

Starch

John Starcher_4

UPDATE!!!!!!!

First of all, let me express my sincere appreciation to all who have responded and empathized with my situation. The Wall is the best support group I know of!!!!!

Grumpy - thanks for the phone number. Ken, your idea is great, but I'm working under some serious time constraints, so I have opted to call Columbus directly.

I spoke with a plans examiner this morning ('cuz that's who answered the phone!), and explained the situation. There was a pause on his end, then he stated that State typically does not require floor removal for an inspection. I clarified to him that the plumbing was installed under the floor, not while the floor was removed. Actually, when we got to the job, there was a floor there, so I don't know if it's a new floor or not! We are actually the second plumbing contractor on this job - the owner threw the first guy out, so I "inherited" this mess.

I told the examiner that the last thing I want to do is make and enemy of the plumbing inspector, and that I'm not trying to cause any problems. I said that if I have done something wrong, I fully expect to be called on the carpet. I also said that I expect to be treated fairly!

Mr. Krebs is attempting to contact the inspector, and is supposed to call me after he has spoken to him. I'm getting a faint glimmer of hope, here. Hope I'm not being overly optimistic, though.

Will keep you all posted as new developments occur!!!!

Thanks again to everyone. The Wall ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Starch

Kal Row

all the inspectors i know

couldn’t make it in the business - and have a chip the size of mount Everest on their shoulder - on the other hand, there are those that have seen the horrors of shoddy work - as in CO deaths or sewage in the house - those have a legitimate chip – just like the state troupers who throw the book at speeder’s, cause they just hate scraping children off “their” highway – kind-of ruins their whole day

jackchips_2

ALL

the Inspectors you know???????

Hopefully we'll meet some day and you can change that to all but one. :-))

jim walls_3

John/ existing floor

Now that makes a huge difference,,,,,,,,,,,,,I can see his request if the floor was removed & the piping exposed, but not inspected prior to new flooring, but if all work was done under the floor through a crawl access he is being unreasonable. Gary Krebs is a straight shooter & will approach this from a logical standpoint, he has mentioned at several conferences I have attended, that he does not want his department to be (I cannot remember exactly how he said this, so it is not a quote but I think you can get the gist of it)the big bad bully on the hill,,,,,,,,,,They are there to help contractors, not to throw their weight around. I think you will get satisfaction, John, and you have approached this in a very professional manner, which should keep you from having to worry about any retribution. If you visit the Department of Commerce Website you will see they post their e-mail addresses & phone numbers, they want to help, & I have always recieved quick response & helpful information when I needed it. Good Luck

Steamhead

I guess we've been lucky

we usually deal with one or two inspectors, and they do their job well. Never had a problem.

But if one of them retires, all bets are off.

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Ken_8

Kal's observation is

tragically true more times than not.

Most of these guys failed trying to do what we do, knew someone somewhere to get an "appointment," after they torpedoed their own contracting busineses, now make more money and bennies off government largess than they ever could being the generally lousy contractors they once were - and now love the perceived "respect and power" their legally bestowed office grants them.

There are two reasons this is the case.

In NJ it is not talent or ability that determines who will be appointed as an inspector; nor will it be your pathetic resume of bad credit and bad business practices on the company's you trashed over time. It is "who you know" in each municipality whence the appointments come. That's the first reason.

The second is because as a group, contractors are so terrified of standing up to inept and incompetent inspection practices, that we promote the very behavior we despise by our own silence and acquiessence. Underpinning that dynamic, as a group, the vast majority of us do not know the codes adequately to intelligently discuss problems with those enforcing rules that we are completely naieve about anyhow.

Many exceptions to my broad brush of condemnation of us both, inspectors and contractors, exist. Most notably, Bob O'Connor in NJ and Matt Sweeney (Mad Dog) respectively. Both would be my "poster boy" of the exception to my generalizations.

Like Mad Dog, I get respect by knowing the code backwards and forwards - as well as doing good work. NJ inspector Bob O'Connor has actually jumped into the fray arguing with other jursidictions to help contractors being improperly handled by his own peers.

I urge each of you to stop patronizing zealous and improper code enforcement by becoming astute in the codes you must adhere to - and to tell inept inspectors who enforce their opinions, rather than written codes and laws, to show you the specific code they suggest are being violated - and most importantly, FOR THEM TO DO SO IN WRITING!

Enough of the ranting. I need to go make some money.

Later



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Jack_21

Digital video camera

Perhaps if you own a digital camera You could run a line to a small monitor and plug the cameera into it. Get the inspector there and "real time" the inspection with him watching the monitor. You solve the "bone-heads" problem and yours. PITA, I know, but maybe a solution.

Dave Yates (PAH)

just once

I wish you'd speak your mind and say how you really feel(G).

Tiss true what you've said, but up in my neck of the woods you need no experience to be an inspector. An appointment is all it takes and we've seen some real doozies over the decades as wet-behind-the-ears inspectors attempt learning the code as they inspect.

What we (as a generality) fail to remember, is that we are ligit businesses first and contractors second when it comes to dealing with inspectors. As such we command respect and decent treatment from any official - be it the President or a local yocal. That means (to me) that the inspection department must have reasonable hours and the ability to manage their time so we're not standing around for hours waiting for someone to look at our installations. Can you imagine any other business tolerating such nonsense as having to drive to the township office and appear in person to obtain a plumbing permit? In addition, I expect them to provide someone who at least knows what a closet connection is and doesn't wonder off into the master bedroom's walk-in closet looking for one (true story) only to turn back and say he can't find what's between my feet. D'OH!

Here's what we have:

PI #1: Worked in the trade - great guy who knows the code

PI #2: Worked in the trade - code enforcement varies according to his mood & who he likes - or who his friends are in the community, which gets codes compliance avoided & makes us look like idiots when we say dumb things like "your 3-compartment sink will need a grease trap".

PI #3: See #2 above

PI #4: See #1 above

PI #5: No experience (couldn't find the closet flange). He has now appointed an assistand (PI #6) who also has no prior experience.

PI #7: No experience - gave himself a Master Plumber's license & has a penchant for throwing his weight around.

PI #8: No experience. You want an inspection? Call between 6:00 & 7:00 AM or forget about it till the next morning. Also bullies his way around. 48 hours min advance notice. Hasn't got a clue.

PI #8: No experience, but claims he can flunk your work and has no need to tell you why. You're supposed to know, so he's not telling. He tried that with me - just once.

PI #9: No experience. Out of town unlicensed hacks get a free ride, while local contractors get the meat grinder treatment.

PI #10: No experience. Tried stopping a Habitat for Humanity build-a-thon (two homes from a foundation-only start to move-in condition in 48 hours). He'd never seen a loop vent and was insisting we run an exposed vent up through each of these two beautiful timber-framed homes. He suggested we should drill a hole directly through the exposed timbers so that out PVC vent would "look" ok! The timber framer's guild (it was their international convention & there were several hundred of them present) damn near fainted dead away(G). A county commissioner finally arrived to give him an attitude adjustment after I showed him my BOCA code book and the passage governing loop venting (which I had attempted to share with the PI) - back off or be fired. I'd been on the job site working for more that 24 hours straight through & wasn't in the mood for stupidity. The out of town HVAC guys dropped out on the second day, so I got to finish that by default.

There's more, but it'll look and sound like a broken record if I go on. Our new PA State-wide code is proving to be a joke & it's been business as usual so far. The current inspectors have a two-year grace period before having to pass a written test. We'll see. I wish I had an opportunity to help write the questions!(G)

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gerry gill

hey john

if you cant get some quick help from Krebs, I could see what i can get info wise from Herman Bohinc, he's the chairman of the state plumbing advisory board and he may be able to get a fire under someones butt..you may know him, he owns Norhio plumbing and i'll see him monday at the cleveland master plumbers league meeting..let me know

ScottMP

Its a little different here in MA

Most plumbing inspectors around here actually know the code. Most are understanding and once they know your good intentions are will ing to work with you. Yes I know there are exceptions.

The majority are older plumbers who have decided that, crawling around on thier knees in the crawl space's, that are to small for a kid, is no longer thier idea of a good time. SInce alot of the smaller towns do not pay much for the job it is a nice job for a retired plumber who has spent his time in the trade.

Its a shame we have strict codes around the country and then allow small timers to interpet their own way.

And there are some who want MA to change to the rest of the country ? No thanks I'll stick with ours.

Scott

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Robert O'Connor_7

WOW!!!!

I feel like I've just been kicked in b@ªZ's. Pretty strong posts guys. If I had feelings they would be pretty hurt at this point. John, if this is your first non-residential job and your first experience with a state inspector YOU should have been on site to avoid any miscommunications that may have arose. I may be an exception to this blanket hate for inspectors in that I own a medium size ALL UNION shop that, well lets just say does a fair amount of commercial & industrial work as well as some rather large heating plants. I will agree that some inspectors are in fact WAY over the top, but I can honestly say I HAVE NEVER FAILED AN INSPECTION in my 30 years in this biz..Why? because I trust no one. Any time I have a "First meet" with a new inspector or one I don't know, I go there. I've had a bunch want to fail me but could never embrace the code like I have. I have no life. Pipe is my life. Its unfortunate you had this situation and I ultimatly feel you'll be victorious in your pursuit for the "GOOD STICKER" but when you do the type of work I do, you could pass an inspection standing on your head. The code or regulations are "MINIMUM" standards IMHO. Pretty easy stuff. I probably could of helped you with one call to the right guy...Good day! Robert O'Connor/NJ/Construction Official/Building & Plumbing HHS Sub Code Official/Master Plumber

mp1969

Best for last!

> I feel like I've just been kicked in b@ªZ's.

> Pretty strong posts guys. If I had feelings they

> would be pretty hurt at this point. John, if this

> is your first non-residential job and your first

> experience with a state inspector YOU should have

> been on site to avoid any miscommunications that

> may have arose. I may be an exception to this

> blanket hate for inspectors in that I own a

> medium size ALL UNION shop that, well lets just

> say does a fair amount of commercial & industrial

> work as well as some rather large heating plants.

> I will agree that some inspectors are in fact WAY

> over the top, but I can honestly say I HAVE NEVER

> FAILED AN INSPECTION in my 30 years in this

> biz..Why? because I trust no one. Any time I have

> a "First meet" with a new inspector or one I

> don't know, I go there. I've had a bunch want to

> fail me but could never embrace the code like I

> have. I have no life. Pipe is my life. Its

> unfortunate you had this situation and I

> ultimatly feel you'll be victorious in your

> pursuit for the "GOOD STICKER" but when you do

> the type of work I do, you could pass an

> inspection standing on your head. The code or

> regulations are "MINIMUM" standards IMHO. Pretty

> easy stuff. I probably could of helped you with

> one call to the right guy...Good day! Robert

> O'Connor/NJ/Construction Official/Building &

> Plumbing HHS Sub Code Official/Master Plumber

mp1969

Best for last!

> I feel like I've just been kicked in b@ªZ's.

> Pretty strong posts guys. If I had feelings they

> would be pretty hurt at this point. John, if this

> is your first non-residential job and your first

> experience with a state inspector YOU should have

> been on site to avoid any miscommunications that

> may have arose. I may be an exception to this

> blanket hate for inspectors in that I own a

> medium size ALL UNION shop that, well lets just

> say does a fair amount of commercial & industrial

> work as well as some rather large heating plants.

> I will agree that some inspectors are in fact WAY

> over the top, but I can honestly say I HAVE NEVER

> FAILED AN INSPECTION in my 30 years in this

> biz..Why? because I trust no one. Any time I have

> a "First meet" with a new inspector or one I

> don't know, I go there. I've had a bunch want to

> fail me but could never embrace the code like I

> have. I have no life. Pipe is my life. Its

> unfortunate you had this situation and I

> ultimatly feel you'll be victorious in your

> pursuit for the "GOOD STICKER" but when you do

> the type of work I do, you could pass an

> inspection standing on your head. The code or

> regulations are "MINIMUM" standards IMHO. Pretty

> easy stuff. I probably could of helped you with

> one call to the right guy...Good day! Robert

> O'Connor/NJ/Construction Official/Building &

> Plumbing HHS Sub Code Official/Master Plumber

mp1969

Last but not least!

> I feel like I've just been kicked in b@ªZ's.

> Pretty strong posts guys. If I had feelings they

> would be pretty hurt at this point. John, if this

> is your first non-residential job and your first

> experience with a state inspector YOU should have

> been on site to avoid any miscommunications that

> may have arose. I may be an exception to this

> blanket hate for inspectors in that I own a

> medium size ALL UNION shop that, well lets just

> say does a fair amount of commercial & industrial

> work as well as some rather large heating plants.

> I will agree that some inspectors are in fact WAY

> over the top, but I can honestly say I HAVE NEVER

> FAILED AN INSPECTION in my 30 years in this

> biz..Why? because I trust no one. Any time I have

> a "First meet" with a new inspector or one I

> don't know, I go there. I've had a bunch want to

> fail me but could never embrace the code like I

> have. I have no life. Pipe is my life. Its

> unfortunate you had this situation and I

> ultimatly feel you'll be victorious in your

> pursuit for the "GOOD STICKER" but when you do

> the type of work I do, you could pass an

> inspection standing on your head. The code or

> regulations are "MINIMUM" standards IMHO. Pretty

> easy stuff. I probably could of helped you with

> one call to the right guy...Good day! Robert

> O'Connor/NJ/Construction Official/Building &

> Plumbing HHS Sub Code Official/Master Plumber