WH or boiler

Joe_51

I posted a thread about an open radiant system and got alot of negitive feedback about those kinds of systems....It was brought up by some that I'd be better served by using a boiler instead of a WH for a heat source.My impression is that most boilers produce 180 or so degree water.I only need about 130 degree water for my system (as per heat loss calculations/design) Why would I want to heat water up to 180 degrees and then temper it back down to 130 or so ?? Seems to me why not just heat it to 130 degrees with a water heater(using a HX to separate the two systems.I'd be using an oil fired Bock water heater so were not talking a Home Depot special.....On a house that has a relively low/med heat loss (32,000 btu) It seems to make better sense to me....but what do I know.I'd like to hear someone in layman terms explain to me why this idea isn't the best. Please don't tell me about these super high end systems boilers..there priced way out of reach for the average DIY'er/ Joey

lchmb

opinion

I don't know about an open system but I have in the past used a Rinnia instantaneous water heater for a job. This was a sealed system (no water feed) due to location and was for a garage floor radiant only. It has been installed for almost two year's now and the homeowner love's it. If all you are doing is a single radiant zone then I personally don't see a problem. But that's an opinion.

ed wallace

wh vs boiler

waterheaters have 5yr warrenty vs up to 30 yrs for the boiler have you any experience setting up an oil burner ? does your state require a permit on the installation of a heating appliance ?

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Maine Ken

There really doesn't have to be a tremendous difference in price when you consider all factors; initial costs, maintainance, life expectancy, finding someone willing to work on them in the future.

"Maine" Ken

Maine Ken

All of the boilers I install come w/ lifetime on the castings!!!!!!

Maine Ken

Is there any potential for expansion in the future? If so are you willing to pay again later????

"Maine" Ken

Joe_51

No experience here Ken

No need to ever expand or add on to system(can anyone say that about ANY system???)I don't think WH break down after 5 years....my ols nat gas one ran 17 years and I know I didn't service or flush it once.... As for burners....there the same ones that boilers use.....No one has presented any reasons why a WH isn't a good idea.

Robert O'Connor_6

Your

Oil and Solid Fuel Board in Maine is the AHJ .You should run this past them


Is the Bock Oil Fired water heater listed for use as a heating appliance?

If it isn't and it malfunctions your insurance company may not pay for the damages.


Regards

Robert

Joe_51

there is a cost difference...

Ken, I have access to wholesale pricing and can/do get my material at your cost.There is a big difference in price between a boiler system and a WH system.I think a Bock that is flushed every six months or so,rods are changed as needed will last past 5 years.As for someone who will service it.Why wouldn't someone service it ??? But being a Mainer yourself you already know we fix things ourselves anyway.

Joe_51

No inspections here

Where I'm located inspections are not the order of the day.My inspector released my inspection for utilities even before we were done digging the trench for example.WE pretty much can do what we want around here.

DaveGateway

Domestic water heaters

As a general rule boilers are better constructed than DWH's that's one reason they last longer. The main reason they last longer is reoxygenation doesn't occur due to constant make up water. Health issues aside, closed systems last longer due to that fact. A cast boiler with underground leaking and constant make up is going to deteriorate with a quickness.

That being said, I believe any DWH will last longer in a closed system than installed as a domestic water heater. For small radiant applications a DWH will do the job. Will it last as long as a CI boiler? Probably not. Is it as efficient as a modern CI boiler? Definitely not.

I've used DHW's for dedicated radiant applications but pulling 32K from the heating plant that provides your shower water WITH A HEAT EXCHANGER OF COURSE could leave you "cold in the tub", or "cold on the couch" if priority zoning is used, on a design day. I'd use separate heat sources or a boiler sized for BOTH loads in that low output range you need. Don't forget standby losses that make water heaters even MORE inefficient than boilers.

Joey, it will get the job done. A Btu is a Btu. If you're gonna pipe this thing yourself you could pipe a boiler as well. Just make sure you don't mix the domestic with the heating.

BTW, why are you switching from gas to oil?

Maine Ken

I hope you have that same optimism when/ if your homeowners cancells you for not having a "heating" system or you cannot sell or refinance your home for the same reason.

There are boilers out there that are not far away in pricing from a Bock. As I said before add up 'all' of the costs over the lifetine and then evaluate how much more one costs over the other.

Good luck.

Floyd_5

Joey,

If you can get wholesale like you say.. ten I know for fact that you can get a CI oil boiler for just a few hundred bucks more than that Bock.....You will have to run it at at least 140....you still need a stack, power venter, or chimney....
With a mod. gas fired 90+ like a Munchie or Ultra you can save a bunch on that stuff and really not be that much higher in the overall cost of things.....

BTW... I have recently rplaced a 5 1/2 yr old Bock DHW heater and have to replace a Bock indirect that only 3yr old this week yet.... I'm not real thrilled with Bock right now.....seems as through their QA program as taken a major dump......

Floyd

DaveGateway

Combo oil unit

Take a look at Triangle Tube's Delta Elite oil fired combo unit. Not cheap but a safe way to make hot water and feed a radiant system.

jeff a.

broken and cracked radiators

I am in the middle of rehabbing a home and it has the old cast iron radiaors hot water boiler system. I found most of the radiators are cracked or have holes in them . the home had frozen pipes this past winter. Where can I purchase radiators ? Please help . jeff

kevin coppinger_4

try the Bradford...

White oil fired combo...it has a HX built in. I just recently serviced one (added a Mixing valve to it) and it did well in the exact application tha you are talking about. kpc

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S Ebels

Jeff

Good question that someone here may know the answer to. It's best if you would post it again as a new topic and not tag it on to an unrelated thread. You'll get more responses.

Unknown

Bocks

Are great. Go for it. Have a professional install it, however. If 130 is your max temp, you have little need for a boiler.

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Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

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Unknown

if labor/space isn't a concern

Using a B/W non-combo unit with an external HX can save a few bucks.

_______________________________

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Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Unknown

I wouldn't guess

how long a Bock heater would last used in a closed system for heating ( never seen one used in that application yet ) , but the typical time they last as domestic water heaters around here is about 12-15 years .

I would hazard a guess and say that even the most inexpensive new boiler will give you more of a fuel savings over a water heater for heating a home . And with the price of a Bock , there are quite a few boilers out there that are as expensive or cheaper . I know the 30 gal. Bock oil fired takes a good 20 minutes to heat street temperature water to 125 , where any bottom barrel oil fired boiler takes less than 10 minutes to reach 180 .

Joe_51

Thanks for input

Rob B, It's incouraging to hear you say it can be done,,I know you know your stuff and the heating season we have to deal with.Tom your thoughts are well taken. Maine Ken.... .....not getting a homeowners policy...or being able to sell my house in the future. That is the dumbest thing I have heard about this subject to date. What's your beef anyway ? Not happy to see DIY'ers in your local area doing their own work ?? taking away from yours or something ??? I will use a HX, not for the domestic side though, for the closed radiant loop. I'll wire it in a way that when I'm using domestic water(shower or other heavy water use) it'll shut down the radiant side for a while.If I have any problems with exended degree days..we'll just chuck some more wood in the stove.

DaveGateway

Joey and Kevin

Will those combo units handle 32K on the radiant side?

Murph'_5

Lissen Joey

Maine Ken was putting up some possible things that may not go the way you want. You asked the question. Now you do not like the answer, why slam him? Does not sound like he is worried about losing work to you, he signed the post with good luck.



My advice to you would be: If you have to ask such Amateur questions, perhaps you might not want to be doing this job !!



(sos)

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Alex Giacomuzzi

WH / Boiler Opinion

Joey:
In your initial post you asked about a WH versus a Boiler and a boilers ability or need to heat to 180 degrees. If your system does not need 180 F., there is certainly no requirement to run it there, for either a boiler or WH. It is NOT abnormal to run several different mfg. standard boilers down to 130 to 140 F min. temp. Some mfgs go to 120 F. min. for a std. non condensing boiler (not a fancy high tech unit which can go much lower). The bottom line is --- there is flexibility and it depends on the total design requirements.

For example--- lets take the WH for a moment supplying the --"130 F. or so"-- water for radiant heating passing thru a the HX. Is it safe to assume a 20 degree delta T across the HX? If so, this will mean you need to run the WH hotter than 130. Let say ---- 150 to 160F. Now ---- are you planning to mix down the domestic water temp for usage needs?? It works both ways.......whether you are using a WH or a boiler.

Both a WH and a boiler can heat water --- we all know that. Each were designed for a specific purpose initally. Is there overlap ---- yes indeed there is and this maybe a good example. You may be at a point where you could do either successfully. You asked about "why this idea isn't the best". It may well be, but without knowing all the design needs and requirements it is impossible to say for sure.

There are several thoughts expressed above that are valid and valuable. This is not a comparison between a high cost boiler and a low cost Bock WH......... They are much too close to be an issue. There will be different annual maintenance requirements between a choice of fuels, let alone the type of system installed. What is the cost of repair between propane and oil? What is longevity of the heater worth -- 10-15 vs 25-30 years? What is the cost of operation worth --- efficiency of one system vs the other. They are never equal. The questions go on and on.....

What is the BTUH input of the Bock heater you are considering? I understand your WH and HX concept. Are you planning to always circulate 130 F. water when ever the t-stat calls or will you be mixing down further from there for warmer days?

Good Luck........ Alex

Joe_51

Alex, each zone is controlled with a different thermostat/telestat.At this point I did not consider mixing down the water to a lower temp on warmer days.I figured the "zone" that was calling would satisfy quicker.I guess I could manually turn the aquastat bach to a lower temp during the warmer heating months.Do they make a control that will do this automatic ? If you suggest an outdoor reset control how would this tie into a WH aquastat? SMurf- I guess you agree with Kenny and his statement about cancelling my homeowners policy...I hope you don't use these scare tactics on your customers.

Robert O'Connor_6

hey Joe

I'm in Maine also.

I work with a lot of do it yourselfers. Many of whom are very talented and just need a little direction.

You came here looking for free advice . People took time out to give you the benefit of their knowledge and experience.

You hear some stuff that you don't like and you start with personal attacks thats way out of line.

I've seen insurance companies deny claims once because it was a dyi and not to code. I've also seen banks deny financing because of lack of what they considder to be a "central heating appliance and system." "Maine" Ken is giving you good info .,

This is the Wall we try to be civil and disagree with style . Its a good place, try to respect it.

Regards

Robert

ME

Robert O'Connor_6

I priced one last

year here, It was within a $100 of a cast iron boiler with a coil and a lifetime warranty.

Standby losses on water heaters are as great as boilers with coils

All the best

Robert

ME

Alex Giacomuzzi

WH

I am not aware nor would I advocate using an outdoor reset control on the WH. It would certainly void any equip. mfg. warranty and a home made version could compromise much more. I would be interested to know what BTUH rating the Bock WH would be?

Have you purchased your PEX tubing already? Does it have an oxygen barrier? If you have non barriered PEX, you have truly limited your options on this issue and a CI boiler is not even an option.. So this depends on where you are presently at in your project. Is the door still open or is it closed?

You have to help me understand some things. You are putting in a brand new heating system (for both DHW and radiant heat), where you can control the design and its functionality to be what ever you need. I would view this as starting with a clean sheet of paper. Is this true?

Why would you design in a need to throw in additional logs into a wood burner for the extended temp. lows, or add to your own maintenance needs by having to flush the water heater tank every 6 months, change anode rods after 2-5 years, or even require servicing an oil burner annually, or replace the whole heater in 10--15 years etc. I just do not understand some of this?? Help me with this.

Regards Alex

Weezbo

hello:)......

well...it seems you have options now,many , many options...
a few decades ago when copper replaced the steel as the newest and best idea to come along quite a few individuals lashed in a Bock and took hot water off where ever it was convienient...there are a few differences although i wont go into it at this juncture.
...people thought hey Thats Pretty Smart! saves hassel time and $'s. well,a couple decades went by and we as a informed and generally educated people made certain discoveries...(Hey! Could Happen!) then things started getting interesting..we took off by leaps and bounds...not that as a people we were previously stupid ..however we started the well... if this ,then that, then what?
...of course as individuals we all possessed various skills talents and natural abilities. many people thinking that they would like to do something worth remembering in their life time ,began specializing in solving these, Then What ? ? 's You may suggest that we are all a bunch of clowns who dont know their A from a hole in the wall however part of what we are transmitting here is the benifit of our experience efforts studies and research certainly you have God given talents that you employ every day to your fullest no one is with out some saving grace...
if you are a carpenter or post man truck driver or hamburger flipper you are no better or worse than the next guy..and should one of us decide to burn our hamburgers you might feel inclined to benifit us with your experience..Kewl burnt aint my favorite flavor. were you to say Yah You can heat them with a weed burner like you are doing buh listen,i been doin this a while and that went out years ago,now we have radiant turbo wind evaporators... that sing and dance and humm a happy tune! and Cook the hamburger to Perfection. maybe you are telling me the truth Why would you lie? theres no benifit in it for you. so you tell me the cost of the thing WoW! That sounds Off the Charts! nah you just trying to sell me some POS that i can live with out...10 cents in propane Bang another finely burnt hamburger:) now say Dave hears what you said hey Joey look i didnt want to say this earlier however if He's cooking the Hamburgers Then they always come out that Burnt, what if we tried some of that turbo air stuff how would that work out? I dont wanna buy into the whole enchillada i would just like to come over here and have him Not burn the things fora change:)) I like the gallons of beer he always has to wash it down buh man There Has got to be a happy medium.....
.. See how that sorta works into this whole line of thought? you good at what you do you, been at it, A While...., seen radiant seen turbo wind seen the evaporator process remember when that used to sing...remembered when it could dance for you there is just no better way to cook hamburgers Now:) and in fact there isnt. so Dave has you take the time to tell him how the turbo idea works next go around he suggests i give the turbo idea a try wow! Dave is clearly Amazed at the Hamburger ! a twinge of burnt here n there Hey he's happy. Now i think Hmmm this turbo idea Was pretty good..
Thats what i am going to do from Now on.see, Iam happy it was fairly cheap deal to lash into the weed burner and hey the hamburger is hardly burnt at all: )
...perhaps these guys have seen a few things and have a bit of experience you havent devoted your life to, maybe you no mind the slight twinge here n there...however what they are conveying is realvant to You...were you to go back to heating the hamburgers like i did with the weed burners You Might Run out of customers:)) Ladd The Bock idea rolled outta here 30 years ago.

Unknown

really?

Does that boiler cost include the IDFWH? Or the lack of need for one with a DHW coil? Exactly what kind of boiler can you get for the price of a Bock, does it have an AFUE in the 80's?

Not trying to be contentious, but I haven't seen boilers as cheap as Bocks.

AFAICT, you can save some good money using non barrier tubing with a bock, even with an HX and non-ferrous pumps. How much varies on every project, of course, on many there isn't much savings, but on many there are.

_______________________________

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Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Unknown

You don't usually vary the water heater settings except, perhaps, turning it up or down for the change from winter to summer if you like.

Outdoor reset is implemented by using a mixing device of some kind, either on-off injection, variable speed injection, or some kind of mixing valve. The water heater temp is constant, what varies is the temp to the radiant system by drawing off of the water heater in different ways to blend the max temp water in with the existing radiant temp water to raise the temperature there.

This is still a good tactic to use with water heaters as it can dynamically reduce your radiant temperatures, which can be good for flooring concerns, expansion, and efficiency.

_______________________________

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Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Unknown

A few I know

the Thermo Dynamics S series and the Burnham RSA line are near the cost of a Bock , maybe cheaper . Both are in the low 80s AFUE

Robert O'Connor_6

Try to keep up.

> Does that boiler cost include the IDFWH? Or the

> lack of need for one with a DHW coil? Exactly

> what kind of boiler can you get for the price of

> a Bock, does it have an AFUE in the 80's?

>

> Not

> trying to be contentious, but I haven't seen

> boilers as cheap as Bocks.

>

> AFAICT, you can

> save some good money using non barrier tubing

> with a bock, even with an HX and non-ferrous

> pumps. How much varies on every project, of

> course, on many there isn't much savings, but on

> many there

> are.

>

> _______________________________

>

> Northea

> st Radiant Technology, LLC

>

> Robert Brown,

> Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant

> Designer

>

> 207.899.2328 NRT@maine.rr.com

Robert O'Connor_6

Sub Thread .

My post was a reply to Kevin Coppinger who was talking about the Bradford White Combination waterheater with a . Never made any remarks about the price of the Bock

The New Yorker Ap Series with coil is about the same money as these rigs . I have seen them last 40 years. The ones today are so much better Not saying any of this stuff would be my choice but these are the paramaters of this conversation. I have never sold an AP Series Boiler but I service a lot of them and for what they are they are well built. The CLW series is within another $100. Thats cast iron. a hybrid of the old burnham v1.

Regards

Robert

Joe_51

Sorry for being rude

I'm sorry for acting like an a** on this site. I didn't hear what I wanted to hear and got defensive. I'm in a high pressure situation to get this part of the house done.I thought about what Ken and others said about the selling of the house, home owners policy and it makes more sense now.I'm sorry for calling Ken's words stupid. I was being the stupid one. Ok...that being said, I already have my pex tubing installed and it is barrier tubing. One manifold has 5 zones on it and the other manifold has 4 zones on it. I've cancelled the idea of using a water heater as a heat source. I think (with the help of educated opinoins here) that a boiler with a indirect WH is a better choice. Would a tankless coil work for hot water requirements for two people ? If we needed more hot water for additional family members in the future I assume that we could upgrade to a indirect water heater then. With a heat load of 35k btu's and domestic needs with room for expansion what size boiler would be in order?? Joey

Joe_51

Sorry for being rude

I'm sorry for acting like an a** on this site. I didn't hear what I wanted to hear and got defensive. I'm in a high pressure situation to get this part of the house done.I thought about what Ken and others said about the selling of the house, home owners policy and it makes more sense now.I'm sorry for calling Ken's words stupid. I was being the stupid one. Ok...that being said, I already have my pex tubing installed and it is barrier tubing. One manifold has 5 zones on it and the other manifold has 4 zones on it. I've cancelled the idea of using a water heater as a heat source. I think (with the help of educated opinoins here) that a boiler with a indirect WH is a better choice. Would a tankless coil work for hot water requirements for two people ? If we needed more hot water for additional family members in the future I assume that we could upgrade to a indirect water heater then. With a heat load of 35k btu's and domestic needs with room for expansion what size boiler would be in order?? Joey

Robert O'Connor_6

Ok

a Boiler with a coil you should get about a 100k btu oil fired boiler. Something fired at .85 with 140 psi on the pump.

I have a Burnham v83 we have two people in our house . She uses the bath tub . We have plenty of hot water. I service hundreds of accounts like this . Maybe 1 in 30 have and indirect.

If you go with an indirect you will need to check the manufacturer for its required input and that will tell you the size boiler you need to couple it with to get your hot water.

What boilers do you have access to.

"Maine" Ken is right about the Biasi. Its the cheapest bopiler with out a coil available in Maine and is very efficient. My only concern with any import is the importer. How long are they gonna be around?

Regards

Robert

Ted_9

Just wondering but 35,000 btus seems small for Maine. Is the house very small?

Unknown

That's not an overly small load for a modest, well insulated home in the south-central maine region, which is Joe's situation if I remember correctly. We run into homes in that range all the time.
_______________________________

Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Joe_51

I have access to these boilers..

I can get the Burnham boilers you mentioned Bob. The Burnham PV83ST-HBUR WHICK HAS A TANKLESS COIL (makes 2.75 gpm)input 91,000 byu's output 68,000 but's with a .75 firing rate afue 85.1 for $1650.00 I could go one size larger which would give me room to grow and 3.0 gpm coil.Have you heard of the ULTIMATE line of boilers ?? they make a ultimate plus system that requires no power venter ( which I would need to use regardless of any unit I use, have no chimney. The 32K heat loss load calc. was done for me ,the house in question is a 1900sf saltbox facing south tightly built with very little windows on north side, ect... Rob B, I know you did a heat loss calc for my house also, was 32K in the ballpark ??? Joey

Joe_51

I replied to your email Rob.