6 June 1944.....................................................

J.C.A._3

The next time you are being "dissed" by a Frenchman, make sure you tell them(with a wink and a smile) that "they should be glad they're being rude to you in French. If it wasn't for our D-Day troops, they would be rude to us in... German". Nuff said? Chris

Mad Dog

was the beginning of the end for The Third Reich

and the return to Freedom for millions of Europeans. God Bless all who fought that day and till the complete surrender of The Nazis. We won't forget what you'll did that day. And, we can't forget IKE who masterminded the largest amphibious assault ever. Thank You Gentlemen! Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

hee hee hee

good one, chris. Can you say achtung baby? mad dog

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Firedragon_4

My dad went in to Utah in the afternoon and to

top it all off he was French-Canadian by birth, American GI by choice and had three of us serve in a war he hated. Mom's a war-bride from Luxembourg, what stories I was raised with. Thanks MD!

DaveGateway

Holy Cow

After watching the history channel all week, I was so wrapped up with home improvements today I forgot today is the sixth. Both of my parents are members of "the greatest generation". He arrived in Europe shortly after D-Day and thankfully didn't see much action. My mom worked for the army air corp as a civilian. Many uncles and friends fought in that war and I am priveledged to have known them.

I'm glad the WWII memorial was dedicated in time for the few remaining of that generation to witness. The whole world is FOREVER indebted to the millions of people who fought for freedom in whatever capacity they could.

Thank you again to all who answered the call in those desperate times.

Tom Goebig

S Ebels

The more I study D-Day

The more I realize there was, for lack of a better term, "divine intervention" involved on the side of the Allies. Too many things "coincidences" to be just luck and/or good planning.

Examples: Hitlers aides refused to wake him at 2:30 AM to tell him of the invasion.

Rommel, the great military genius, decided to return to Germany from the Normandy coast to be with his wife on her birthday. He was sure the invasion would come at high tide and no moon, exactly the opposite of Ike's plan.

The Pegasus bridge was held by a handfull of Brits with no worthy anti-armor weapons. They blew up one German tank during the counter attack and the rest of the German forces retreated to get further orders, which never came.

The 155MM artillery that the Army rangers scaled the cliffs to take out had been moved out of position to an apple orchard 5 miles from the coast, without orders to do so.

The list goes on and on.

This is not to take anything at all away from those who fought and died there. Without their efforts the French and indeed all of Western Europe would be having beer and schnitzel for dinner. Just my personal opinion that we (the allies) did not fight alone on that day.

Read up on Midway. Many of the same types of errors and misjudgements were made by the Japanese Navy there.

It makes one think...............

DaveGateway

Luck or Providence

Yeah Steve, all true. But whose to say the objectives still would not have been reached, certainly at a higher cost. What about the poor guys at Utah beach. 30 some amphibious tanks were supposed to arrive, to take out machine gun emplacements, before the first infantry landing craft. All were swamped in rough seas along with their courageous crew except a couple which made it ashore. As a result many infantry were gunned down before they even left the boat.

Other landing sites were secured much easier. It is still a military marvel and a true testament to our soldiers grit and tenacity how unsupported infantry took out those emplacements and secured that beach. Had those tanks made it ashore the casualty list at Omaha would have been much less.

I sincerely believe that it would have taken a massive repellant along all fronts for the allies to retreat from such a long planned invasion. History likes to remind us of events that seemingly went our way but we can't forget about the lesser known incidents that bordered on fiasco status with many allied lives lost. Entire troop ship convoys carrying GI's to England were lost at sea due to north Atlantic storms. Those young soldiers died as bravely in the hold of that ship as if they had landed on the beach at Normandy. My own father recalls a storm which sunk troop ships in his convoy. He huddled in the hold praying they would reach port so he could fight.

Let's not forget! Tell your children of the sacrifice this generation was willing to offer for the sake of freedom. If you run into an eighty-something person, ask them about the war years. It will surely open your eyes to the reality they lived whether here or abroad.

Hey guys, if D-Day failed....WE might be speaking German!!!

P.S. My ex wife's uncles were from Germany and fought for the reich. Before they passed we had many animated conversations about the war. I feel lucky to have had the opportunity to do this. It was an ugly chapter in world history and lessons learned need to be applied today. Nuff said.

BillW@honeywell

The size and complexity of \"Overlord\"...

is almost beyond description. Given what could have happened, and what did happen, it was the American, British, Canadian & Aussie and other Allied GI's who made the difference. Ike was a great General, but it was the Lieutenants, Captains, Sergeants & Petty Officers who made it happen. "Citizen" Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Airmen & Coast Guardsmen, who could improvise and make their own decisions without waiting for some answer from Berlin! God bless them all!

Constantin

Lest we forget...

... if memory serves me correctly, the French assisted us in our war of independence. Were it not for that support, we might still be using pounds for currency and be part of the Commonwealth.

Furthermore, we should not forget either the brave men and women who fought on the "other side". They had families, dreams, etc. just like you and me, before greater forces required most of them to join an evil cause. The German side of my family is not unusual... it had members in both camps. Some were murdered, jailed, or KZ'ed by the Gestapo/NSDAP, others worked for the Nazis. Naturally, I am more proud of the folks that tried to assassinate Hitler than the ones that worked for him...

And lest we forget, dissent/disobedience was not an option in Nazi Germany... For example, the two student siblings Hans and Sophie Scholl as well as Christoph Probst were executed for openly questioning the war in 1942... and while their names grace many a school building in Germany to remember their bravery, under non-Nazi circumstances they probably would have led a "normal" life.

Here is one website dedicated to them, the original in German and a google-translation about their "transgression" and the last moments of their lives. Hans Scholls last exclamation was "Long Live Liberty!"... Their crime? They had handed out leaflets questioning the validity of the regime and the war.

When we speak of providence, we also have to remember that the Europe that the Allies invaded in 1944 was very different from the Europe that the Germans had conquered by 1941. To the benefit of the Allies on the western front, the Germans had already bled themselves ¾ to death in the frozen steppes of Russia. Had it not been for the incredible sacrifices of the Russians (allegedly, over 20M dead) the western front would probably have had far more graveyards than it does today. I wonder if an invasion would even have been possible if Stalin had not been fighting the Germans on the other side.

Since the war, the Germans have been long-term partners in NATO, along with the French and other EU countries. The Americans did, until recently, enjoy still a great deal of respect not only for their kind treatment of Germans after WWII (a lesson finally learned after WWI) but the rebuilding of Europe via the Marschall plan. However, even the staunchest US allies in the EU have a hard time reconciling the actions of the current administration with the historic ideals they associate with the US.

Mark Hunt

Yup, You are correct sir

but, (ain't there always one?!) the French held off any outward assistance until they were SURE of an AMERICAN victory.

Lest we forget, there was also this thing called "the French/Indian" war, where THOUSANDS of settlers were slaughtered by marauding bands of "Native Americans" and French regulars and NO MAN WOMAN OR CHILD WAS SPARED. (I grew up in Schenectady,NY, go read about that little massacre.)

Let us also not forget that once france was conquered, and conquered they were, a huge number of them sided with the Nazi's, not Germans, NAZIS.

Let us also remember, there were many French citizens that wanted our war dead "dug up and removed" from those cemetaries. Those fallen heroes were considered "refuse" by some over there.

You are correct Constantin, France did lend a hand to our revolution. Not because they loved America, or freedom sir, rather because they HATED England more than they hated us then. Times have changed.

So doing the math, France lends a hand once in 200+ years, America comes to their rescue how many times and at what cost? Remember when France refused to allow our military aircraft to fly through "their" airspace when we attacked Libya? I do.

Not trying to start a fight here, just keeping things in balance.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Yes Sir

And this is a picture none should ever forget.

9,387 Americans.

Mark H

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Jimmy Gillies

Well said Mad Dog

These brave people sailed from the UK. Many did not return home.
I'm going to ensure my kids generation know that they died for us, and we remain free because of them, we must always fight against any power that is wrong.
The UK will always be greatfull to all our allies.
Kind regards.
Jimmy Gillies.

Constantin

Hold on, Mark, just a minute

Keep in mind that the cemetary at Omaha beach is US soil. That's right, it's a part of America, the French ceeded it to the US in perpetuity as a sign of gratitude for the supreme sacrifice that so many Americans had made liberating them. To this day, the people I have met in France make a distinction between the Americans that visit them and the administration that governs them. After all, the current administration was not elected by a majority vote...

As for collaboration, you get that in any country... particularly when the penalty of refusing to cooperate is not only death for yourself but ongoing punishment for you entire family (something used to great effect by the Gestapo throughout Germany in the 6 years leading up to the Polish invasion). I'm not sure I'd be willing to risk taking my entire family down with me (including grandparent, uncles, aunts, their kids, etc.). That's a bridge I have luckily not had to cross... Would you risk it?

Considering these very real risks, the R

jackchips_2

It seems

like you'll be disappointed when he "extricates" his administration from Irag.

You are consistent, Constantin.

Constantin

I have a friend who just got back from Iraq

Just reading her report on what she went through just to get from the Green Zone to the airport made my hair stand up straight. The thought that the well-armored, well-defended convoy that left 1/2 hour before hers would lose 2 vehicles while en-route to the airport is sobering indeed. The armored SUV's the US uses are only good at stopping bullets, not IEDs...

As for the Iraq mess the US finds itself in, I'm told by military history buffs that the revolt remains at a low boil... at least when compared to historic insurgency campaigns. However, try telling that to the loved ones left behind when yet another person trying to rebuild that country (whether as a soldier, engineer, or whatever) is gunned down or blown up.

Also remember, that the casualty rates of the Americans are mounting but do not approach the number of non-enemy-combatant Iraqis killed so far. For example, how can you establish a viable police force when recruits get just 2 weeks of training, no body armor, undersized equipment, etc. and when the policemen and their commanders keep getting killed?

I hope for the day that the US troops come home, safe and sound, or the transformation of Iraq into a stable country where GI's are no longer killed on a daily basis (like Germany after WWII).

The question is whether that day will be along the lines of the British success at crushing the communist insurgency in Malaysia or more alike to the abandonment of Somalia to its civil war under our last President. Hopefully, the US will leave a stable, democratic Iraq as a friend. Let's see if the current administration succeeds at that goal... for the sake of "our people" and the Iraqis, I hope they do.

Murph'_5

Agendas

How about them heating systems? This spews of hatred of our country and is not really the correct forum. I do not participate on those sites so I have no reference to direct you and your comments!



Murph'

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Mad Dog

Thank them for me, Tom

Mad Dog

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Constantin

Murph, I just reply...

...when I feel that an alternative perspective is required... nor do I hate our country... it's simply a matter of disagreeing with what the current government was/is doing. So while I found some of the above posts quite simplistic and/or offensive (and hence my responses) others apparently did not.

That is not to say that the opinions I express are right or wrong, but simply that I disagree with what I read. Most posts on this board (by me or others) ought to and do relate to heating systems. Cheers!

Murph'_5

you know that we know...........

Where you stand. How you tend to pull a tribute to lives lost over sixty years ago to current administrations policies. I believe that has gone on for quite awhile. AGENDAS. Whats funny is the fact that you are so well-read, and loathe the United States so much, why you cannot find Utopia elsewhere.



Murph'



(censored)

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hr

Regardless of where you stand

Max works at Blockbuster video part time. So we get free video rentals. We quickly went through the biggies, and have moved onto smaller titles.

A week or so ago , out of the blue, Max brought home "Fog of War" an interview with Robert MacNamara, and his 11 lessons of war. It starts with WW1, the war to end all wars, touches on the Cuban crisis and how close we came.

Quite interesting. Check it out.

hot rod

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Constantin

Murph, in the spirit of fairness,

...perhaps you also ought to chide those that post "funny" comeback lines to snide French instead of just focusing on me, ya know?

If you don't like my views that's fine, but if Mad Dog, JCA, etc. are allowed to publish their well-known views, who are you to decide that my dissenting viewpoints are off-topic, etc. ?

Last time I checked, eulogies for past presidents, etc. was never the main topic on the Wall. Yet, historic events get mentioned, a thread here and there goes political, and all of a sudden the folks with a "non-patriotic" agenda get roasted as full of hatred for their country and all sorts of other nonsense. I don't take cheap shots at you Murph, and frankly I expect better from you. Argue the points if you disagree with them, don't attack the person stating them personally.

If I didn't love the US, I wouldn't live here. Yet allow me to point out what I preceive to be foreign policy mis-steps squandering much of the goodwill that the US amassed as a result of being the driving force behind liberating the world (WWII, the independence of colonies, the UN, the fall of the USSR, etc.). You and I might disagree on what the US ought to be or ought to do but please don't stoop down to accusing me of being a USA-hater as a result.

Leo

Being a product of the Baby Boom

Being a product of the Baby Boom I remember the Draft, a Uniform in most kids fathers closet, the Army (Marine, Navy etc) picture on the shelf, Fathers working in the factory, Black and white TV, Zippo Lighters, and beer. There are so many other things but I know we can never go back there. I do know we were raised by this generation to have a work ethic, use manners, and show respect for others. We have to pass on to our children and grandchildren the importance of this generation so that they may never have to see it first hand.

Leo

Darin Cook_3

The UK is a special friend to the US

Jimmy, Last september my Air National Guard unit went to Waterbeach Barracks, England for 3 weeks. We went there to train with the British Army Engineers. We got the priviledge of spending 3 days with the Territorial Army. What a great bunch of people! They took us out sight seeing, even took us to Edinburgh, Scotland for the day. They even invited us to a Sargents Mess for some of their folks who were retiring. A GREAT time. I was very impressed with the sincerty,friendliness, and professionalism displayed by all of the troops. The United States has a great Allie in the United Kingdom.

Constantin

Chances are probably better than even...

...that you would have gotten the same response from the armed forces of any member of NATO. Granted, the UK is a special case and probably is warmer than others but discount everyone else just yet.

Plenty of US GI's came and continue to come home with brides and husbands from all over Europe. Something must be clicking right in the host country for that to happen...

Firedragon_4

Hear, hear and a great way to end this thread,

let's get back to HAPPY HEATING!

Murph'_5

You expect better from me?

You are a living example of the "PC" group works(perhaps) you want to spew this dribble till someone calls you to the carpet, now it's my fault? I guess I "took the bait" so to speak. Most people are passive and do not want to cause a rift, so they will tend to ignore your anti-US sentiments. I guess some of us are exceptions, can only hold my tounge/keyboard so long! Your post tend to go from debate to putting your agenda out there with the changing of paragraphs.



There have been many administrations over the years that have not been able to satisfy everyone, but I challenge you to find any "democracy" that can pacify all. Hmmmm tough one Eh? I probaly do not know enough about these topics to debate you, but all I see when I read your post is a burning flag !!



Murph'

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jackchips_2

Your

holding your own, Murph.

Constantin

Murph, see my post above.

I don't call your viewpoints dribble, and I wouldn't do so especially if as you put it "I probaly do not know enough about these topics to debate you". Well, you seem to know enough to flippantly discredit what I wrote previously. Can we respect each others viewpoints even if they diverge from our own, as long as they are presented in a polite manner?

Furthermore, I don't label you as a right-wing thong-wearing redneck
...so perhaps you could lay off the "PC" and "flag-burner" labeling until you have at least met me. If at that time I am not burning flags nor waving the communist manifesto in your face, you may even rightfully conclude that I am neither "PC" nor a "flag-burner".

So please don't take my ramblings as a challenge. There is no moral obligation to reply to posts you simply don't like, nor a reason that polite posters with opposing viewpoints should be muzzled. Yet you seem to take the whole thing a bit personally. I apologize if I offended you as that simply was not my intention.

Perhaps we can even agree that democracies aren't perfect but they tend to be the least defective way of running a country.

Lastly, let me restate for the record, that the "Greatest Generation" laid the foundation for liberating the world, spreading market economies and democracies first in Europe and Asia, then emanating out from there. The rate of economic growth, scientific discovery, etc. has been accelerating the well-being of most inhabitants of this earth ever since. The men and women that made it possible should be commended for their efforts and I always wondered why their memorial was so late in coming to the nations capital.

Now how about them heating systems...

jackchips_2

Oh,

you have a way of generating heat alright, Constantin.

But then again, you are from Cambridge. Is Jim Brody your idol? :-)

Constantin

Now if only there was a way...

... to harness that heat and use it to heat the house. Then, we'd be onto something revolutionary. ;-)

Who is Jim Brody, BTW?

jackchips_2

He

is a former Councilman from Cambridge who does a talk show at Noon on 96.9 with Marjorie Egan. I may be spelling his last name wrong. Surprised you don't listen or do you wait for Jay Severin at 3:00? You and him could have quite a go round.

Enjoyed your heat comment.

Did a plumbing design for the Y in downtown Cambridge a few years ago so I'm familiar with your low pressure water problem. We had to install tank type toilets on the top two floors as there was not adaquate pressure to operate flush valves. How are you doing with the water department?

Constantin

going further down a tangent...

I actually don't even know that radio station. I typically only listen to my own music or the BBC on NPR and read the Wall Street Journal to have something to laugh about when I'm drinking my morning coffee.

As for Cambridge, the situation is interesting. At first, they wanted the first 10 feet of sanitation off the building in cast iron. When pressed for a "why" they stated we needed that so cars could drive on it. Never mind, I guess, that the driveway ends 50+ feet away and that they approved the use of PVC below only 4' of clay under the actual driveway at the street. They may now change their minds regarding CI at the house... I hope.

As for potable water, we're probably still looking at a booster pump for the domestic service. The sprinkler service will most likely require a separate water line... even if we offer to store all the required water on site (see the Raimondo system). I guess I wouldn't be so opposed if it didn't require a $7,000 fire line (and no, I'm not making that up).

We still have to meet with some folks to get everything cleared up, so there is some remote hope that storing 10 minutes of water on site should not then require a second water line.

Murph'_5

where you are wrong........

Is in saying not to take it personally, Hmmmmm. You are the one stickin it out there!! When you get called on it you turn to (supposed) insults toward me. You seem to be a taker, not quite a team player. If the game don't suit you, you take your ball and go home. You seem to be calling me names when all I was doing was being critical of your postings against the United States and the current policies. I guess it's ok as long as your points are brought forward, but when clarified as to what you are posting it's "censorship"!! There I did it again, just descibed "the PC group" to the tee.



Now then have you ever met a "redneck" ? I have and I don't qualify. But I could set it up for you to meet a few!! The "thong thing" was a fictitious joke amongst freinds, you don't qualify!



You seem to have funny ways of twisting things here, no one not even me labled you as a flag burner, my thoughts were of flag burning after reading your post. I gather you are not from the US originally, but enjoy the benefits of living here. Did you take an oath? Do you remember it?



Murph'


(free post, no obligation)





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Jeff Lawrence_24

The current admistration

You lost any respect I had for you when you made the statement "After all, the current administration was not elected by a majority vote..."

Our leaders are OUR leaders. That goes for the entire country. Did it make a difference when the former president defiled the office with an intern? While it disgusted me (and a lot more people), I didn't threaten to leave the country. Besides, what would have happened if our current president did something like that?


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Constantin

Murph, you're missing the point.

My replies to your posts eschewed labeling and insulting language for a very specific reason. Please re-read them, perhaps your emotions are making you read meaning into words that simply aren't there? Did you even notice my apology?

For example, I have met rednecks but I haven't met you, and that's why I specifically stated that I am not labeling you as such. Along the same veins, please excuse the levity I was trying to inject via the thong comment... I thought it was an open joke considering how many folks here have been referencing it.

Cheers!

Constantin

Electoral vs. Majority vote

Jeff, more votes were cast by voters for Gore than for Bush. However, and quite properly, our political system then enshrined President Bush in office because he won more votes where it mattered, i.e. at the electoral college level. Here, look it up at the Federal Election Commission site, Gore got 48.4% of the vote, Bush 47.9%.

BTW, I didn't threaten to leave the country either when President Clinton had his Monica moment. Nor will I leave if President Bush is re-elected... it's part of living in a democracy to have leaders that you may or may not have voted for at a local, state, or even federal level.

jackchips_2

Constantin

everyone knows your position---Let it go.

Murph'_5

You are funny guy !!

I really do not think I missed much, but the best part is how you need to twist words to suit your needs, Hmmmmm. You seems to want to make reference to these over and over, lets see "I apologize I did not mean to call you a flag burning /US hating sponge leeching on working people for self-consummate of knowledge" OOOOOH that one might just be the one, But it should be ok becaused I apologized during the reference!! so what else could you possibly want me to re-read or decipher?



You seem to want to reference these post of the last few days, when really you have been putting this "AGENDA" out there for quite awhile. let me finish with this: How many people have You been in contact with that have said "Boy that guy (murph') has alot of cahunas sticking up for his homeland". Think about it, maybe you will "get it" someday!!



Murph'

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Constantin

Murph,

I'm not sure how to interpret the above stream of thought. However, you seem to reject my apology and I see you're not offering one either. Oh well.

Have a good night, I have work to do.

Jeff Lawrence_24

Good point

If you remember, back when Bush 41 ran against Clinton and Ross Perot, no one got over 50%. If I remember correctly, that was the first time in election history no one had won an election with less than 50% of the vote.

And I never said you were going to leave the country. Or you had even offered to.

J

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Mark Hunt

Yes Jeff


The majority of Americans voted against Bill Clinton.



Mark H

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