Wow...I think I need your guidance.

Deb_2

First, I apologize for my ignorance and ask you to be patient with me. I'm just an average American citizen who is building a new house. My husband and I are doing as much as we can ourselves in order to afford this project.

We sure would like radiant heat, but can't afford to pay $35,000 for a system. So....(here's where I need your patience) we have been talking to Radiantec. I participate in a home building forum and one of the posters suggested this site to learn more about radiant heat.

It's obvious to me that many of you are not fond of this company and its open system. However, I was wondering if anyone would take the time to tell me, in words a typical homeowner would understand why this is so.

If we can't afford a $35,000 radiant system and Radiantec is not a good option, should we settle for the standard forced air system or does anyone have suggetions?

Thanks for your time and if this forum is only for professionals, I apologize and please just ignore this post.

Deb

John Starcher_4

Deb -

Welcome to the Wall! Many heating professionals hang out here, but you are just as welcome! The informed homeowner is our best customer.

The price of comfort is rarely cheap. Neither is the price of a well designd, reliable, efficient heating system. It bothers me when I see a low budget heating system installed in a house that has $30K worth of granite countertops in the kitchen!!!! That being said, are there any areas of your construction budget that could be modified to free up money to go towards your radiant system?

I have, at times, "partnered" with my customers to help them save some money. If I feel they are capable, I will let them install their own tubing, with our guidance. As long as they understand the proper way to do it, it can be done fairly easily. This can amount to a decent dollar savings. Also, have you talked to your heating contractor about different boiler options? It may be possible to reduce the cost by using a different boiler. The New York Thermal "Trinity" boiler is very affordable, and works well with radiant systems.

Some things I don't (make that DON'T) recommend: Do not use an "open" or "combined" system like the one that Radiantec promotes. WAY too many risks, in my opinion, mainly from legionella. I would never feel comfortable installing a system like this.

Do not try to save money by using "economy" tubing. The tubing is the heart of the system, and most likely will not be easily repairable if a leak develops. Use a well known brand that carries a warranty. We prefer Wirsbo products - I have not had a single tube-related problem.

Don't use non-barrier tubing unless ALL of the system components are non-ferrous. Depending on your system configuration, this may be an option for saving some money, as there is a significant price differenct in the barrier tube compared to the non-barrier tube. Talk to your contractor about this.

Do not award the job to anyone just because of price. Get references and ask to see examples of other jobs they have done.

If you haven't done so already, click the "Find a Professional" link at the top of the page, and enter your zip code. You will be given a list of the closest contractors in your area who frequent the Wall. Or go to www.wirsbo.com for a similar feature.

Let us know how you make out. I sincerely hope you can find a way to make a radiant system fit your budget!!

Starch

hr

Good advice from Starch

owners sweat equity is one way to take some cost out. Has worked well for me.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing! Consider partial radiant. Tiled bathrooms floors and shower walls are a must, in my opinion. In the master bath if no where else.

If you could have radiant in only one room this would be your best bang for the buck. Possibly a small electric hydronic source or even an electric cable or mat system.

Kitchens are my next favorite room to warm floors in. Any space where folks gather and stand around.

Mudrooms are nice radiantly heated, consider wall radiant for hanging clothes, or a footware warming shelf.

Plenty of creative ways to get some radiant at whatever your budget allows.

Don't give up, and be wary of www. systems without local support and design assistance. Who ya gonna call, when nothing works at all?

hot rod

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Wayco Wayne_2

Well said guys

I have partnered with folks and had good success. Most people can run the tubing with a little instruction and coaching. It also makes for good conversation when you're inviting guests in for a gathering. "Oh yes we installed the tubing, It was nothing really. Doesnt it feel warm and cozy in here?" The Munchkin is my choise for afforable condensing boilers. You can use a cast iron beatie too but you have to protect it from cool water return. Ask away Deb. WW

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Dave Yates (PAH)

My objection

has little to do with the company itself (they're hardly the only player selling open systems) & everything to do with my belief that open systems present a health hazard for consumers. I haven't taken the time to examine their tubing, but those who have have expressed opinions that it is not up to the same standards as the tubing we frequently use (Wirsbo, Watts, Burnham, etc...).

Essentially, all you need to do is physically separate the hydronic and potable (drinking quality) water via a heat exchanger. We use Flat Plate stainless steel heat exchangers for this purpose, which are made here in York, PA. I have yet to experience a problem with their products.

Once you've isolated the two fluids, the hydronic side is treated like any other water-based heating system with its own circulator, fill valve, expansion tank and relief valve. The Btu load will determine which heat exchanger model is required.

The extra $$$ for this additional equipment represent an investment in your continued good health.

Live long and prosper as Spock would have said! Legionella bacteria (sero group 1, which are the leading bugs for 90% of CAP - community acquired pneumonia) are commonly found in potable water and need just a few things for rampant amplification: water temperatures between 55 and 133 degrees F with 90 to 122 being very favorable and 98.6 being ideal (almost all dual use systems fall into the ideal range); pH of 5.0 to 8.5 (almost all potable water systems); stagnation - every time the circulator is idle (summer months too); biofilms, which are found in all potable systems and in heavier concentrations in horiziontal piping. Recent studies have stated that plastic piping offers a more favorable environment for Legionella.

There are flow/pressure related issues too. Long runs of plastic piping (or any other material) represent flow resistance & that can be quite significant where hundreds of feet of tubing are present. This, in turn, can lead to pressure imbalances that contribute to scalding or very poor delivery flows.

Caveat Emptor

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John Abbott

Deb..........

Where are you located?


John

Darin Cook_2

Sound Advice!!

What everyone has said here is excellent advice. We too have a policy of letting a client do as much as they can. If a lesson is required, we give it. Everything we do is still reflected in our price, but the homeowner is well aware of that beforehand. The BIG money savers in a radiant job are the tubing and the insulation. We can show a homeowner how to do it and devote our precious time to the boiler plants. We have supplied the equipment to the HO at a nominal cost. The absolute one thing they cannot do is the heart of the system. That being the boiler and pump panel. This is where the engineering comes into play. More importantly this is where the combustion and mediation of comes into play. I will never let my customers put themselves into a position to hurt themselves or their families to save a dollar. I can teach a monkey in 10 minutes how to staple up tubing. But a monkey will never understand combustion and the consequences of.

don_33

Deb

If I may offer some advice.Force air,now dont be confuse by thinking force air will be cheaper then the price tag thats you have for infloor.

To get the comfort and saving that one get from infloor vs
force air,I would have to go with some very hightech equipment,Variable speed airhandler,two and three stage equipment,a properly seal and balance distribution system.
And still only come close to the comfort and other bennie
that wetheat brings.

And yes I made sound parcel to wetheat,but believe me I do more force air system then the wet stuff.wHy it the nature of the beast where I live.

Do you have to have all infloor? I would think not.I have
found home with lots of window and thick carpet,its best
to go with a panel rad with a trv.Less expensive all the way around and you all most get the same result other then warm feet.

Just because you cant afford all infloor,doesnt mean you have to go away from wetheat completely.
And out of respect for the host,all I can say for the other system you are looking at is,No way will your budget support
you having to do it twice.

Darin Cook_2

Don brings out a good point

Steel panel radiators with thermostatic radiator valves on a constant circulating system based on outdoor reset is very hard to beat. Comfort and fuel efficiency go hand and hand. This is a standard I have seen through out northern Europe. In fact there are more panel radiators in operation than radiant. But if you are going to talk straight out comfort radiant is it. My company will typically break up the house into different comfort zones. In your bedrooms which most people like cooler, that could be a panel rad, or fin tube baseboard. Bathrooms are the area most appreciated with nice warm floors. Keep in mind a panel radiator system most likely will be cheaper to run and run a close second in comfort. It will also make every room its own zone. Try to price ANY other system with every room being its own zone, the price will be much,much higher. Lots of options out there - Choose wisely.

heatboy

What are you getting for $35K?

How large of a radiant system are we looking at? $35K for an open system seems.............well, questionable. What is the heat source, tube type and layout?

I agree with everyone else here. From someone who works with DIYers on a frequent basis, I could build you a very nice system for $35K with you installing the tube.

When is the last time anyone ever installed there own ductwork?

hb

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Ken_8

Deb,

Ya know, radiant is not the be-all end-all system many purport.

It has a few draw backs, like slow response time, problematic with rugs and underlayment, poor candidate for energy saving night setback, and some compatibility problems with normal boilers - that don't condense.

It works extremely well in combination with HWBB (hot water baseboard) and is perfect for kitchen tiled floors, bathrooms and basements - as well as snow melt.

Mixing radiant in the ideal locations (like tile and bare floors) with HWBB is the best choice possible IMHO.

If the budget is tight and the beauty of having your cake and eating it can occur - it will take the form I mentioned and the indirect water heater option is a no brainer. I would urge you to stay away from Radiantec. They have a bad rep for knowing just enough to get in trouble, have a bad follow up record, and suggest them and the DIYer is a match made in heaven. The successes of Radiantec are from superior marketing, not system design knowledge or expertise.

If you go forward with their plans, make sure there are money back (labor AND materials) warranties if you use their designs and materials. They use a water heater as a boiler, which is illegal in most states and unsafe in all.

You might want to check the top left box of this site and use the "Find a Contractor" referal service. Plug in your zip code and somebody with a brain can help you out for sure.

Let us know how you make out. Shared homeowner experiences are very helpful to us all!

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Mad Dog

forget RADIANTEC

FOR A lot of reasons. I admire what you are doing - The Wife and I are doing just that as we speak. If I were you, I would try to find a consultant in your area who would be willing to direct your labor efforts. He might show you how to lay the tubing and give you a design. The tie in to the boiler.... you will definitely have to sub out. I would stick with Wirsbo tubing =- great company. You might have some trouble finding someone to do this, but I think you could. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Easy on The Monkey Comments, Pal..........................

or I'll sic PETA on you. Mad Dog

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Robert O'Connor_7

Heating?

You could heat a pretty good size house for $35,000, I would strongly suggest forced hot water and NOT forced air. The advice given to you here is from some of the sharpest minds in the industry, I'd follow it. So far from what I've read, all of the other posters haven't bashed the company you have been talking to, however, It's a fact, open systems that combine vast ammounts of plastic tubing are by nature a danger to public health. As repeated, a little sweat equity never hurt anyone, if your up for the task, and really want the best comfort money can buy. Now I really don't think a monkey is capable of laying down tubing. I think that poster was confused with my mother-in-law. She did assist me in installing some in her room and is frequently mis-identified as the HUMANZEE. If your budget allows, I'm sure you could recognize some balance of baseboard, radiant panels, and in floor for your project. I just finished a project for a forced air heating contractor in HIS OWN HOUSE. Thats gotta tell you something. Good luck & keep us posted, and welcome to the wall...Robert O'Connor/NJ

Darin Cook_2

People Eating Tasty Animals

Relax, your a Dog not a monkey. Hey, notice how alot of these so called groups have been branded domestic terrorists by the FBI.

Boilerpro_3

Boy, Bob, that speaks volumes

ARE you going to use hime as your primary reference? That's really good!

Boilerpro

Robert O'Connor_7

Boilerpro..

Just because he is a scorched air provider doesn't mean he's all bad (if that's who you mean). Ironically enough he acually has a number of radiant installs under his belt already but given the slight complexity of his system (I talked him into it) he felt like he was out of his element. As far as Radiantec goes, if his breakthrough technology backfires, I'm afraid were gonna have alot of sick people on our hands sooner or later. Deb, click on the find a pro link, you'll be happy you came here for advice....Robert O'Connor/NJ

Mad Dog

They brought it on themselves

> Relax, your a Dog not a monkey. Hey, notice how

> alot of these so called groups have been branded

> domestic terrorists by the FBI.





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Jed_2

It's funny nobody

has asked her where the $35,000 number came from, or what the scope of her new house is planning to be. Is this a number Radiantec came up with; a local Contractor bid; or just an imaginary number plucked from the air? No, an estimate cannot be given here, but some idea could come from the right question, instead of kicking around strategies based on an imaginary $#, which leads to imaginary strategies, which leads to imaginary bickering, which leads to..... Poor Deb, trying wade through all this bickering. HB is the ONLY one who touched on it.

It,s been two days, I don't see Deb posting again. Nice Honey, guys.

$.02

Jed

John Starcher_4

Nobody's bickering, Jed.....

...at least that I can see. Except maybe you??

Deb asked some very general questions, and we have provided some very general suggestions. I personally assumed that the 35K figure was a quote from someone, and that she is looking at the Radiantec system as a lower priced alternative. Did I read something the wrong way?

If you re-read my post, I suggested that Deb ask her contractor about some of the suggestions that have been made. Just trying to help her with some ideas that could POSSIBLY lower her installed cost. Beyond that, I'm assuming nothing.

Got anything constructive to add?

Starch

Capt.Dan

DIY and Radiantec

I am a DIY and felt that I had a pretty good handle on the concept of radiant heat. I went to Radiantec when I started to get tubing for my slab. The slab has been poured, my plumber installed a noncondensing boiler (Dunkirk) and with a little help from Radiantec I had the system heating the basement just fine this past winter and we are talking -15 for a solid week. We are making an apartment in the basement as we finish the upstairs.
Now for the rest of the story. This past winter I took a course at the local voc-tech on radiant controls and I also found the Wall. If only I could start over. First mistake, no heat loss calculation. Second mistake, no oxygen barrier in the tubing provided by radiantec ( their 7/8 hose). Third mistake which I have to take full responsibility for. I used a patch kit provided by radiantec to repair a bad kink and I thought that I would be on the safe side and put shrink tubing covering the entire repair to keep the concrete away from the stainless steel hose clamps. I have come to find out that glue is suppose to be bad for pex tubing so now I sit and worry.
The results. I am hiring a consultant to give me a heat lose calculation and a complete plumbing diagram. This I will give to a different local plumber and have my furnace replumbed. I will have the Dunkirk flushed and hope that one season didn't cause any rust damage.
I beleive that radiant heat can be done and done sucessfully at a reasonable cost although more than a standard heating system. The extra cost and aggravation will be well worth it and there can be some pride to go along with sweat equity. Good luck, Dan

Jed_2

It's just that

Deb never said anything about "her contractor". Maybe is is a reasonable assumption that she has one who gave her that price. But I never assume anything from so little information. The conversation just seemed to take on a life of it's own, exclusive of Deb. Poinst made good, and valid, but this is Deb's thread.

Jed

Deb_2

Thank you everyone...

Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out, everyone. Sorry it took so long to acknowledge your responses, but it's been a busy weekend. We're having our precast concrete basement walls set in two days and we had a bit of water in the basement we needed to take care of.

Several of you are wondering about the $35K I mentioned for radiant heat. This is a guestimate on our part based on a friend who just built a house, a bit smaller than ours, and they spent $31K for their system. A radiant system for our house would require 2872 sq. feet for the main floor, 2872 for the basement floor, and 1900 sq. feet for the garage.

Deb_2

Thank you everyone...

Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out, everyone. Sorry it took so long to acknowledge your responses, but it's been a busy weekend. We're having our precast concrete basement walls set in two days and we had a bit of water in the basement we needed to take care of.

Several of you are wondering about the $35K I mentioned for radiant heat. This is a guestimate on our part based on a friend who just built a house, a bit smaller than ours, and they spent $31K for their system. A radiant system for our house would require 2872 sq. feet for the main floor, 2872 for the basement floor, and 1900 sq. feet for the garage.

John, I have to tell you I chuckled when I read your comment about someone installing $30K in granite and whining about the cost of their heating system. You probably will think I'm making this up.....but I actually have told people I'm giving up granite countertops so I can have radiant heat. My husband is a great believer in putting our money in the "bones" of the house, not the cosmetics.

Deb_2

Thank you everyone...

Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out, everyone. You all seem like a great bunch of guys. Sorry it took so long to acknowledge your responses, but it's been a busy weekend. We're having our precast concrete basement walls set in two days and we had water in the basement hole that we needed to take care of.

I would like to try to address some of the issues you all have wondered about.

Several of you are wondering about the $35K I mentioned for radiant heat. This is a guestimate on our part based on a friend who just built a house, a bit smaller than ours, and they spent $31K for their system. A radiant system for our house would require 2872 sq. feet for the main floor, 2872 for the basement floor, and 1900 sq. feet for the garage.

We do not have a contractor - we, or I should say, my husband, is generaling the project. We did the same thing with our first house, which we built 21 years ago. My husband was a carpenter years ago and eventually started an overhead door business. I tell you all this so you know we are not going into this blindly.

John, I have to tell you I chuckled when I read your comment about someone installing $30K in granite and whining about the cost of their heating system. You probably will think I'm making this up.....but I actually have told people I'm giving up granite countertops so I can have radiant heat. My husband is a great believer in putting our money in the "bones" of the house, not the cosmetics.

Deb_2

Thank you everyone...

Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out, everyone. You all seem like a great bunch of guys. Sorry it took so long to acknowledge your responses, but it's been a busy weekend. We're having our precast concrete basement walls set in two days and we had water in the basement hole that we needed to take care of.

I would like to try to address some of the issues you all have wondered about.

Several of you are wondering about the $35K I mentioned for radiant heat. This is a guestimate on our part based on a friend who just built a house, a bit smaller than ours, and they spent $31K for their system. A radiant system for our house would require 2872 sq. feet for the main floor, 2872 for the basement floor, and 1900 sq. feet for the garage.

We do not have a contractor - we, or I should say, my husband, is generaling the project. We did the same thing with our first house, which we built 21 years ago. My husband was a carpenter years ago and eventually started an overhead door business. I tell you all this so you know we are not going into this blindly.

John, I have to tell you I chuckled when I read your comment about someone installing $30K in granite and whining about the cost of their heating system. You probably will think I'm making this up.....but I actually have told people I'm giving up granite countertops so I can have radiant heat. My husband is a great believer in putting our money in the "bones" of the house, not the cosmetics.

What I need to do now is print your responses and have my husband read them. He doesn't even know I have posted here - he's just been so busy, I thought I would try to find some information for him.

I did click on the "Find A Professional" and there were only two listings in a 100 mile radius. I wish some of you guys were closer to us!

I'll check back in in a few days and let you know our progress. Thanks again - you guys are great.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

The main problem I see with "packaged" internet radiant heating systems is that their approach to design is bass-ackwards. You have to design the structure to work with the heating system instead of designing the heating system to work with the structure.

Even then, you have to be EXTREMELY careful when it comes to floor coverings and you better not be in a climate colder than the area where the "designer" resides.

Gary Jansen_2

35K where?

Just where are you located? Maybe someone else who follows the wall can help you The radiantmon

Ken D.

Radiant

I do not like open systems. $35,000 sounds like a lot,but over the life of the system you save many more times that. It is an investment. That is the main difference between the Europeans and Americans. We are more for immediate gratification whereas they are more for the long term. This is from someone who believes the USA can smoke the entire world in ingenuity and production. The same is for AC or any other heat source. Always get the highest SEER you can. Pay more now and save much, much more in the long run. Even though the radiant systems of the 40's and 50's were primitive, it is still amazing what Levitt And Sons did for 8 and 9 thousand dollars for a brand new house, appliances and all!

Kal Row

\"hard to beat\" - didto

because panel radiators put out more infrared light per degree of water then any radiant floor i know of - the after all, have an virtual resistance of zero - as compaired to other radiant

Weezbo

35k is a very nice #

i have commitments this year,if not i'd take a working vacation:)

BillW@honeywell

Whatever you choose, remember this...

Energy costs are the third largest cost for a homeowner after mortgage and taxes, and the only one you can directly control. You also have to live with the results of your decision for at least 20 years in comfort and costs. Your HVAC system is only part of the house, all parts of the house MUST work together as a system, or your comfort and energy costs will not be what they should be. In general, purchase the highest efficiency heating and cooling equipment your budget will allow. The same applies to your water heater, refrigerator/freezer,washer/dryer and your lighting system. Look for "EnergyStar" rated products, and pay particular attention to insulation and windows. Make sure your combustion equipment gets enough air to work properly. Zoning your home, which can be done with either forced air or wet heat is a good way to save energy and still be comfortable. Position your home and design it so that you can take advantage of passive solar heat in winter and minimize solar gain in summer, and design your landscaping to help break the winter winds or block the summer sun. Money spent on these basics can help finance that granite countertop or Italian tile foyer in the future. Good luck with your venture.

Mike Wallace

diy radiant

Deb, what you have found here is a forum for "Do it yourself haters anonymous." The professionals can come here, pound their chests, and tell everyone how great they are and how inconceivable it is for anyone to even think of doing anything themselves. I sometimes wonder what they think of someone mowing their own lawn!

I, for quite some time, have viewed topics on this forum. While many of the responders here mean well, you have to remember that they are heating contractors. If they advocated DIY work then they in effect would be losing money. Ultimately, however, the message that I see over and over again is that homeowners are stupid, we are smart, go with us. Please pay us $60/hr to run tubing which is a job that you could easily do yourself with some guidance. Please pay us $35,000 for the materials when you can buy them yourself for $10,000. If the so-called internet companies were so bad, how could they possibly still be in business??

Does this mean that you should install your own heating source and do all of your own plumbing? Absolutely not; some of the work obviously requires professional installation. But, you can do much of this work yourself with a little guidance (installing the tubing for instance). If you spend much time surfing this forum you will see what I mean; the underlying message is that if you try something yourself, it will never work. I have seen numerous postings with degrading (to homeowners or DIY's) remarks or titles. There is even one posted now titled "Tightwad Homeowner" that has numerous responses. This is a real professional bunch.

I have installed radiant heat for over twenty years; I have used some of the internet companies in question with great success, and I sometimes build my own. I have lost many jobs to the internet companies as well. Does this bother me? Of course. Can I blame people though? Not at all. I of course, do alot of work around my house because I am a handy guy.

I have repaired many systems (too many to count) over the years that were incorrectly installed by some of my colleagues. Just because someone is a master plumber or heating contractor, it does not automatically make them an expert in radiant heat.

This will generate a tremendous amount of ill will towards me, Deb, but I just wanted you to see a different point of view. Bottom line is: DIY is alive and well (just look at the success of Home Depot). For many people (not all), DIY radiant is the way to go. You are the only one that can make that decision.

Ken_8

I am amazed at the incorrect assumption...

which always gives incorrect conclusions.

You suggest "we" (whoever that is) are afraid of DIY in that we believe the DIY may actually be able to mow their own lawn?

Using your analogy in reverse, you think I could mow the putting greens at Agusta National?

I suspect those of us who are actually in this biz have made a ton of money correcting not only DIY nightmares, but so-called professionals with licenses as well, who forgot to read the instructions, put the circulator in backwards, cranked up the pressuretrol to get heat to a cold rad, installed the system so every fall the little "skate" key has to be found to bleed all the rads, or just generally left a job in a really unsafe condition and we get the, "Damn CO alarm keeps screaming in the middle of the night - so I pulled the battery" messages

Your notion of us assuming all HO's are borderline fruitcakes is interesting. Your responsibility to inform seems to be thwarted by your fawning over a homeowner who probably knows more than you do - and that is EXACTLY why she stopped by here. Not for your 2 cents, but for ours.

I suspect she neither wants your false patronage and simply wanted what she got. Answers to questions - period.

It is a sad moment when the facts lead us to conclude that many DIYers are better than some of the so-called pro's.

Based on your mis-guided input, I rest my case!

I suspect if your broad brush of contractor bashing is over, perhaps you might suggest to Deb you really have no clue about us - or our ability to help anyone who seeks our opinions and expertise - because you are obviously not one of "us."

What do you do for a living Andy? Install radiant do you?

On what planet?

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John Abbott

Andy........

did you bother to read all the posts in this thread? I got the impression that several people encourage home owner paticipation in radiant installs.Installing tubing is not rocket science.I have worked with many homeowners who with my guidance have installed thir own tubing and insulation as recently as last week.This type of work is within the capabilities of almost anyone who has the desire and the will to follow simple instuctions and has simple mechanical skills.Can everyone do it? No, but most can if they have the desire and a willing instructor.Yes I get $60.00 an hour but my skills are not nescesary to install tubing.
If we make radiant heating affordable to more people we all win.
I think you do our industry a disservice when you slam us as a group without reading what everone is saying.I and many others encourage DIY participation in the nontechnical aspects of radiant heating.I am sure there are DIY haters out there but not all of us.

John

Mark Hunt

Hold on Andy

You show me one post that ever said that homeowners are stupid. Just one.

Why have you not mentioned the homeowners that come here to the "chest pounding", "DIY hater", professionals AFTER their internet company refuses to answer their phone calls when the system doesn't work?? Hmmmmm???

I have no problem with a homeowner doing some of the installation work, and MANY of the previous posters said the same thing. Go back and look. Warning someone off of the I-net companies is not as self serving as you proclaim. Could it possibly be that we have seen the parade of homeowners that got shafted by the I-net companies and we are trying to help them avoid that mess?

Could it be Andy, that we concern ourselves with the health and safety of these folks? Ever hear of Legionella Andy? Take a good look at those open systems recommended by the I-net companies.

People come here for advice on heating system BECAUSE professionals gather here. If our collective opinions are of no value, why bother asking?

If a homeowner wants to install a system on their own, fine. Have fun. I hope it all works out well for them.

If there is a problem however, I for one will not give out free "fix it" advice. There is a FEE for my knowledge.



Mark H

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Mad Dog

hey Handy Andy..................................

Don't flatter yourself...you are not worthy of the energy it takes to muster up any ill will. This is the finest collection of plumbing and heating tradesfolk on the face of MOther Earth. To come here try to disaparage us and besmirch our character is weak. You are not a tradesman - you are a fake, phony, fraud (thank you, mr Grant!) Go away. Mad Dog

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John Abbott

I wouldn't.....

have put it quite that way but having said that I can't disagree with you.

John

Mad Dog

Well! that's why they call me Mad Dog...........................

I am not a lap dog and do NOT suffer fools gladly - this guy is a fake....I can sense it as only a dog can....did I ever tell ya I'm part bloodhound? Mad Dog

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John Abbott

On .........

a recent Carribean cruise there was a tee shirt advertising "Mad Dog" Beer it said " Bad Dog Good Beer.I would have brought one back but I didn't know your size.

John

Dave Yates (PAH)

Pardon his French!

Perhaps Handy Andy should get together with Tommy English? I evidently missed the "dumb homeowner" thread. Was it written in gramatically correct French?

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