RESIDENTIAL TWO-PIPE STEAM

Lou_2

My system dates back to 1931; I bought the house in 1989, finding the system in a shambles. The boiler was cracked and was replaced in 1994 with a Burnham Independence gas unit...since then (and before), we've muddled through each heating season - and, I am still not happy with the results.

The original steam traps, air eliminators, and radiator angle valves were all Milwaukee Valve; the traps have all been replaced with Barnes and Jones units, the eliminators with Gorton #1's (located on the wet returns' high point). The system has two runs: 4 radiators - 2 on the 1st floor, 2 on the second; 6 radiators - 4 on the 1st (2 were replaced with 4' cast iron baseboards), 2 on the second. Although the traps were replaced, all radiators have sized air vent valves. The second floor is always colder than the first, and the two end radiators are only warm during the beginning of the AM and PM heating cycles. The thermostat settings are 70 and 60; the return was replaced with a copper run from the wet return low points to the boiler.

The house has all new windows, some insulation in the walls, and the attic floor is fully insulated.

My questions stem from why was a two-pipe system chosen for a residence (we're the only one in the neighborhood), what further improvements can I make to warm the house more efficiently, eliminating the cold radiators and heating the second floor, what pressure should the boiler be operated with, to should the boiler be equipped with a pump to pull back the water? Since the winter's over, this is my summer project (or vacation?) to be completed by September.

Thanks again for your help.

Lou

Mad Dog

A two-pipe vapor system was primo

in embryonic years of heating, and can still work very nicely when fine-tuned. Haved you tried Find a Professional here? I am in the process of fine-tuning several 2 pipe systems...it is time comsuming and a labor of love...but it can be done. mad dog

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Dale

2 pipe

You have a 2 pipe system since whomever built the house wanted a better steam system. I don't know if your's is a vapor system or not. If I were you I would order the steam books on the left in the "books and more area" and read them all, then the hidden problem (s)may become more obvious. A hundred bucks spent on research will really pay back. Once you know what you have you can select a contractor who's not a "knucklehead" ( Dan's funny description from the "We got steam heat" book). This is the book I suggest you read first.

Steamhead

Lou, that's definitely a \"Milvaco\" Vapor system

The air in this system was vented thru the traps, into the dry return and out the vents located on the dry return. There should be no vents at all on the radiators.

Steam mains and dry returns on your system need to be vented well. Gorton makes an even bigger vent, the #2, which works very well on Vapor.

Vapor systems typically operated on 8 ounces of pressure or thereabouts. The right pressure control for your system is a Vaporstat that cannot be set higher than 1 pound.

Vapor systems were, as Mad Dog says, the best available in their day. They were the Cadillac of heating in the early 20th century, and are still some of the best systems out there. I know yours can be fixed easily.

Where are you located? If you're in or near Baltimore, e-mail me!

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Bryan_5

Lou,
Listen to what Mad Dog and Steamhead are telling you. These guys know there steam as well as anyone. Mad Dog just installed his own steam system in his own house from scratch.
Steamhead helped me resolve the problems that I had with my 2 pipe vapor system and it is running perfect. I was ready to rip my hair out because of that system. Buy the books and learn as much as you can. If you can post some pictures.
Bryan

Matt Undy

raidator air vents?

If this is a vapor system and a 2 pipe system for that matter, why are there radiator vents? Shouldn't the air bleed into the returns through whatever steam seal device the milwaukee uses? Were the replacemnt traps compatable with the system? Did the milwaukee use a j bend type trap or a thermostatic device? It sounds like somone who didn't understand vapor systems either tried to repair the system or installed the system in the first place. Are the orfices for the supplies still in place? It sounds like the first step is to get a hold of the system design and installation insturctions for the miwaukee and make sure it is all to spec. (btw, i'm just a HO and EE and I don't have the specs for the milwuakee system, so it could have been installed correctly and the replacemnt parts weren't identical in function, or it could be runing pressure controls that aren't capable of sensing the incredibly low pressures a vapor system needs to funtion properly, but I still don't see the need for air vents on each radiator)

Matt

Jamie Hall

I second the motion

Lou -- Brian is absolutely right -- between the books and Steamhead and Mad Dog and especially Noel, my contractor (who'd never seen a vapour steam system before) and I got my old vapour system running just fine, and it wasn't all that expensive (even including a new boiler). You'll never be able to install a better system... take a little time to learn, and you'll love it. Must admit, it does sound as though yours is going to need a little more TLC than mine did, though.

Unknown

Lou

In response to your post here and to a phone call from our Technical Service Agent, Dave King, I would like to affirm that the posts below are pretty much dead on as to the possible cause of your problems. Unfortunately, the longest telephone conversation and e-mail communication in the world may not touch on a single small problem related to your installation that can only be spotted by a professional's eyes.

Mad Dog (Matt Sweeney - Triple Crown P&H) is very close to you in the Queens area and has a passion for steam that I haven't seen in my 32 years in this business. I agree that something related to changing the radiator valves, traps and boiler return trap and main vent is the biggest contributor to your difficulties. In most cases, venting or lack of it is the primary evil in a misbalanced steam system. My advice is to contact one of these guys and have them put their trained eyes on your system. It will be very worth your while to do so. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics