Would you like? - Dan H.

DanHolohan

a section in the Library where you could show your work
? I'm thiking, for instance, about the photos of drop headers that have appeared on the Wall. Also, the modules that some of you build in your shop. Gorgeous stuff.

If you'd like, I can start a section in the Library titled, Art Gallery. Within it we can have catagories (Drop Headers, etc.) It will be a place just for photos. I'll convert your photo to a pdf file and caption it with your name, the date, and the general location of the job (City, State/Province).

I think this would be a solid learning tool for everyone, and a nice showcase for the many homeowners who visit here. It seems like a good way to show what pros can do.

Your thoughts?

steve gates

maybe some

before and afters. Things not to do pics...

DanHolohan

That's a thought.

Maybe the not-to-do photos should be in another section?

I'd like to focus on it as a teaching tool, however, rather than a place where we make fun of the work of others.

That possible?

ALH_3

Sort of like

the "wall of pride" and "wall of shame" on another heating site....minus the forced air.

DanHolohan

Yes, but

I rather not have the emphasis on "shame." I like to think of it as an opportunity to teach rather than ridicule.

Matt Undy

ooh, there's a forced air site? WHere!? Where!?

Larry Weingarten

Chamber of Horrors

Waterheaterrescue has a "Chamber of Horrors" showing all sorts of dangerous/silly water heater stuff. Basically it doesn't point a finger, just shows the result of not paying attention.

Unknown

over there...

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/

Mike Reavis_2

did it have a photo of a heater installed on a dryer vent?

I visited a house where during a basement renovation the builder moved the water heater away from the furnace, and common venting, to a point on the outside wall. He then vented it down to the vent used for the clothes dryer. I was sorry that I did not have my camera that day!

Steamhead

Dan, I get your point

but I have always believed that part of the teaching process is showing what not to do. I think some bad pics would be a good idea. We wouldn't necessarily call it "shame" or indicate who did the lousy job, just use them as a teaching tool.

If handled right, I think it would work well.

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Constantin

Second the motion

I think before and after pictures + narratives are very instructive regarding what can be done. Unlike HVAC-Talk, I hope that folks on the wall can keep the derogatory comments to a minimum and focus instead on what needs to be done to fix a given situation.

There is only so much contractor bellyaching I can take before the pot boils over. Not every HO is an idiot, not every engineer aims to make installer life miserable, nor does DIY necessarily imply hack (correlation != causation). Yet, I feel that's the predominant attitude in the contractor locker room mentioned above.

On the other hand, the more folks get exposed to what a proper (which does not mean expensive) installation should look like, the better. The format I would enjoy most is if the installer looks on this as an opportunity to create a reference for future business. This would be of particular interest to those folks who do not run their own web-site but aspire to have a presence on the net.

jim sokolovic

Who is going to confirm...

that the "right way" is in fact, the right way? Maybe I'm "thinking of draft hoods, again". You're in for some fun with this idea, Dan ;^)

Mad Dog

uhuh ...that would be nice.

mad dog

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JB_2

art gallery

Think the idea is great. would like to see pictures of other tradesmans work.we can all learn from each other.The heating help site is great tool!

Nick W

In my opinion.

I respectfully disagree. I think it's an accident waiting to happen.
I think the temptation will be for some very inexperienced persons to look at the pictures and get the idea that they can do certain things themselves because WE make it look easy.
Or even worse, since we all have our own way of doing things, some homeowners may see something that is or isn't in a picture that may differ from the installation in their home. We may find we're defending ourselves against misled customers.

I don't think I'm expressing my concerns here as well as I should be but you get the idea, I'm sure.

The place to showcase our work is on our own websites or in the limited quantity allowed in our "find a professional" ads.

Dan, obviously you're making some wonderful new changes and additions to HeatingHelp but I think your energies are misdirected on this one.

I don't think HeatingHelp.com owes us a thing more.


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DanHolohan

DanHolohan

All points well taken.

Thanks for the input, lads.

John, I hear you. Hadn't considered that aspect. Thanks for bringing it up.

Perhaps we should just have a section in the Library for improper installations, with comments that are instructional, along the lines of what Larry said.

How would that be?

Thanks for all the help!

Constantin

John, allow me to respectfully disagree...

There are plenty of sites on the net that show good installations. I don't think that adding one more would encourage underqualified folks to suddenly excalim "I can do this!" and proceed to hack their way through an installation. Furthermore, the hacks, hardcore DIY'ers, etc. will proceed with mischief no matter how much or how little information HeatingHelp.com puts out there.

Then there are the multitude of web-sites (which will go unnamed) that preach how easy it is to install radiant flooring heating, air conditioning systems, etc. They have pretty pictures too, offer installation advice, installation kits, even online heat gain calculations! I would argue that those sites do a lot more to encourage the unqualified to do their mischief.

Furthermore, one could follow your argument to its logical solution and forbid the sale of books, equipment, appliances, even supplies to folks who do not belong to the trade. I'm not accusing you of that, but I believe that the more HO's understand the difference between a good, thoughtful installation, and a bad one, the better. It's what keeps honest, hard-working contractors in business because they can charge according to the value they bring to a job.

It starts with simple tips like: When a 80+ year-old coal converted to oil boiler is proposed to be swapped out, did you contractor do a Manual-J heat-loss/gain calculation? If the answer is no, it's usually time to look for a different contractor. What homeowners have to understand is what a potential risk they invite by going with a hack installer. Well-written accounts of system installations will do just that.

Furthermore, I doubt that folks will show all aspects of a system installation. For example, I doubt that we'll see extensive system diagrams, pump specifications, pipe schedules, etc. For one, it's too much work to include - but it also is pretty much pointless because every house is different, will require different piping, pumps, etc. In other words, plenty of the art will remain within the community.

No, the only downside I see is for folks to find the time and the resources to put all this content together. As a site admin, I'm only too aware of how long it takes to assemble a good story, optimize pictures and the like. Heck, I've still not got around to posting our Christmas pictures! However, posting before and after stories may be a useful activity in period of downtime to prime the pump and hopefully attract more business.

Lastly, I doubt that most consumers will be informed enough to understand the subtelties of various approaches. I hope I'm right when I presume that you do not get 2AM calls complaining about your use of a specific brand of pipe clamps, for example. But I'm just a HO, not someone who actually installs the stuff for a living, so I really don't know. Cheers!

Kal Row

better yet

i saw a drier vented into a flue - oh boy what a mess
the gas co shut him down - thats how i the job

Kal Row

and if we professionals, dont swallow our pride

and stick out necks out on wall for positive critique – how are we going to improve ourselves – the day you stop being a student is the day you can be put in a box – we can always use another pair of eyes – especially trained ones!!!

Dale

Great Idea!

As an instructor I use the wall photos to illustrate lots of things, a "modern" = young instructor could use this for an on line teaching library for a module on steam heating where tech students would look up a reading list of topics like drop headers or f&t traps or whatever to see what some field examples actually look like.

Dale

Good bad examples

I too collect pictures of what I call good bad examples. I use these alot when I make presentations to building inspectors or gas workers that mainly do relights, so they can spot problem areas.

jackchips_2

Put me

in the good photos only column, Dan.

Of coarse, that'll just be another reason to visit "The Wall". I wonder if my boss will let me out a half hour earlier each day? :-))

Unknown

I think it's

a great idea . One thing - would it be better to keep the photos as .jpg files ? I'm just saying because it takes time to open a .pdf file , on my computer anyway .

Count me in for a few bricks in The Wall . I've been having a little trouble with the credit card I use online , but all is well now . Thanks Dan for the website .

DanHolohan

Thanks, Ron.

The Library takes only pdf files, though.

heatboy

I'm with Jack on this one.

I come here to see professional work done by my peers. Why would I want to see crap installations here when I see them every day in the field. That being said, if you make a place that just houses hosed work, I don't have to look and I wouldn't. When I see the works of DF, PGP, ME, Cheese, Clammy, The Milne Boys, The Mad Dog, Mark Hunt, etc. I get inspired to make my own projects better. That's what this place is all about. You want to look at s*** go to hvactalk or some other place. The Wall sets the bar for all others to try and live up to. I could post picture after picture of the stuff I have to fix.

Before and after pics are cool and could be added, but to just post work that will be made fun of.............?

hb

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ScottMP

Well said

my Friend.

Thanks for the complement of including us in that group.

Scott

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Nick W

Nick W

If you're going to do it....

I want my copper radiator in there.


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\"Maine\" doug

The difference between

ignorance and stupidity is that ignorance can be cured. I still remember guy that stored gasoline in plastic garbage barrels in his closet during the contrived gas shortage way back when. Now that was stupid although it is true there are no warnings on the side of those containers that one should not use them for gasoline. So it that guy's case his stupidity is most likely permanent.

In your business, you also see stupid at work as well as ignorance. Again, stupid will continue to do stupid no matter what you publish or do not publish. On the other hand, here is an another opportunity to teach to the trades, one's peers and also to customers. Curing ignorance (and don't take use of this word as a bad meaning) is what you do with education using many methods since people learn in different fashions.

So seeing all sorts of bad installations makes me an expert, in what, bad installations? So when I call in the profesional, I can say I don't want one like that but I am not sure what I want but perhaps you know?

No, I think that if you want to sell "good" stuff, you need to show me what "good" looks like. Once you can define "good", it is much easier to compare something to it and measure it. After seeing a hundred bad installations, I would like to see the other end of the scale, the "10s" or "Aces" or whatever you would like to call them.

steve gates

teaching is

one of the things you do best! Perhaps a pic then a drawing og the right way.

I do think we can be above the fray.

Unknown

Dan, I think putting

the well done professional jobs on display only is the best way to go. I have looked at other sites that show incorrect and sometimes downright ridiculous installations. I think it only tends to confuse. I have learned over the years to always show the correct way and then discuss possible incorrect ways while looking at the picture of the correct way.

I use many of the photos displayed here in my classes and I have really never used any of the bad ones.

I remeber when I was with the gas company we had a certain control that was being wired wrong. We showed in class how people were wiring it wrong. Then we showed the right way.
About a month later we had a practical test that required 10 of my trainees to wire some training boards. Six of them wired it wrong because that was what they remembered. If you do not show it they will not know it. Show the good stuff and let us all sit there and say boy I wish I could do that, let me learn how.

Richard D._2

GREAT IDEA

someone may think we like to brag about our work! And we would have to say why yes we do!!! I love seeing all the pro job as well as the well shy the #$%^ jobs.. Richard

Tony_8

my 2 cents

The idea has merit and validity. However, I tend to lean towards JohnNY and his stance. What about the guys who've paid for their ads here ? They have pictures with their ads, can I post a picture in the "Library" for free with my name and phone number attached ? That hardly seems fair. Why advertise and pay when it can be had for free ? I have little trouble securing enough work in my area without an ad here, but if you're going to give it away I'll take it ! I do send potential customers here to read and ask questions to back up what I'm telling them. I'm strongly considering an ad here. I wouldn't pay for it if someone else gets it for free. That being said, if the picture postings had NO mention of who or where, attached or as a part of the picture, it could be a great learning tool for everyone.
JMO,
Tony

Constantin

Examples of prior work

Tony, as I don't admin this board, I had no idea that folks pay for their ad space. However, I think there may be a simple solution to the problem that allows everyone to benefit.

Allow folks who are actively advertising to post unlimited stories to the "Quality Work" page - as long as they pass Dan's quality requirements (i.e. no fluff). That way, your ad dollar goes a longer way than it did before as you can show more instances here of good work than you could previously. It would not take too much work to modify your online profile each time to keep track of your features on the "Quality Work" page and provide direct links to them (and back).

Folks who do not advertise on the wall will be allowed one post in the Quality Work section. No contact information will be given other than the screen name of the poster, whereas quality work stories submitted by ad-buying folks will feature contact information and a link back to the ad section of that contractor. Now proud HO's or folks who are considering becoming ad-buyers can also show their pride on the net without undercutting the ad-buying folks.

Folks who decide to retire from the ad-sponsorship program will have all but one of their jobs stripped or anonymized, at Dan's discretion.

Lastly, good content is what makes the Wall ever more interesting and valuable to the denizens of the Internet. The more content Dan can deliver, the more folks will come. The more we contribute, the more Dan and the rest of us will benefit. Cheers!

DanHolohan

Thanks for all the input, lads.

I appreciate you all for taking the time to see this from a number of perspectives. You've all made very valid points.

It's mainly the work I'd like to showcase, and I've come to believe that there's merit in showing both the great stuff and the goofs. We need to recognize both, as Larry said.

I don't want this to be complicated, however, and I certainly don't want to get anyone upset by it. I want to keep it positive because that's what this site is known for.

How would it be if I just start harvesting photos off the Wall as they catch my eye, and then post them with no attribution in the Library. I'll use the intro to each photo group to make general comments. Scott's photos of the lead joints, for instance, are something that I think should last for more than three days. How often do we get to see that?

Or we could just not do anything and leave things as they are.

Your thoughts on this, lads?

Thanks.

Tony_8

that

sounds like a winning solution !

heatboy

\"Before and After\".............

could be a good educational tool if we, as the contractors, can explain what the issues were and how we remedied, or at least improved, the situation.

hb

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hr

Nix the

wall of shame idea, in my opinion. Suppose that installer showed up here looking for guidence and saw his work being dragged over the coals?

I think it's better to lead by good example. Wall visitors can easily print pics of installations that catch their eye, and compare to what they have or see in the field, if they chose.

Show casing "compromised" systems feels like dumbing down the industry. Let's give 'em something to shoot for, not shoot at

hot rod

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Larry Weingarten

in their shoes

To oversimplify, it seems that when a technician sees technical trouble, he says, "Who did this?" When the building owner sees the same thing, he says "How do I fix this?" Equipment falls apart all by itself given enough time and the blaming becomes irrelevant. Fixing is what's needed. For non-technicians to know what they are looking at and understand that it's in need, photos of neglected or dangerous equipment can help. Even when another technician messed up, the building owner still will be more concerned about getting it fixed so he can worry about other stuff,.. like his daughter's new boyfriend! We need to keep in mind the other points of view.

heatboy

I feel uneasy about..........

posting pictures of ineffective projects for the reasons you state, hr. I have work from early in my career that makes me wince when I think about it. I know we all do. Having someone raking me over the coals at that stage may have driven me out of the trade.

I think the before and after sequence would work if it is done professionally. We, and I include myself, have been less than professional at times, though. Tough call. On the other hand, homeowners don't need to see the bad stuff to know what good, professionally done mechanicals are supposed to be. They can just walk into their own mechanical rooms to judge ;-}

hb

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