Modulating Oil

Constantin · April 2004

Please excuse the silly question, but as far as I know, no-one has developed a modulating oil burner in the residential market. I'm sure there is a good reason, but I cannot think of one. Allow me to think out loud...

With PWM controllers, you could control the combustion process blower and oil pump to ramp up and down concurrently. In fact, an O2/CO2 sensor could be integrated into PID logic to optimize combustion, despite changes in fuel, dusty air intakes, etc.

On the other hand, a thick water jacket, a CI heat exchanger, and the resultant huge thermal mass allows you to achieve good efficiency/responsiveness even with a simple on/off burner, Or perhaps the variable-speed drive electronics are simply not reliable enough yet? Please enlighten me!

Mark Eatherton1 · March 2004

Stop thinking out side the box...

Wahddya want ta save energy or something?

Remember, these are OIL dealers you're talking about. Why would THEY want to save energy?

Great idea though, and probably doable. Look into the Blue Angel burner I think it is...

Go, ahead, keep thinking outside of the box and see where it gets you....:-)

ME

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Brad_9 · March 2004

Isn't the Monitor FCX modulating? It's condensing I believe.

Unknown · March 2004

Over at Oiltechtalk.com

Check under the post - " Let the Reasearch Begin " . Alan Mercurio and Andrew Georges are putting the " Herman Modulating Oil Burner " through some field testing at Andy's home . Hope it works well .

John@Reliable_9 · March 2004

Not all oil dealers think alike Mark hehe

Constantin · March 2004

I looked through the manual

...and only one output is mentioned. If the FCX were capable of modulating, I think that Monitor would advertise it heavily. It's too bad they only offer one size... I need about 2x of the rated output to drive our water heater. I suppose I could drive them with a two-stage Tekmar control that does the alternating switching for the house loads.

What I also like about the FCX is that it has two heat outputs. That makes them very easy to plumb into Radiant + DWH system, AFAICT. The low return temps found in radiant systems should be just the ticket to ensure consistent condensation of flue gases. They even have built-in circulator pumps, looks right for a primary loop with dedicated pumps for the other zones.

However, on the other hand, a nice vitola costs about the same, is pretty much bulletproof, etc. The only downside for me is that I don't think I can sidevent it (a requirement in my location).

Constantin · March 2004

So I'm not crazy...

That's good to know! On the other hand, isn't it sad that when it comes to high tech appliances, the Europeans are usually ahead by a few years? The R&D environment has to be a lot more friendly than it's here in the USA.

On a related note, the high effiencies that the unit was hitting are quite interesting. A modulating oil burner with a condensing section would certainly take a lot of wind out the gas folks' sails, at least in the NE of the USA. Suddenly, you'd have the freedom to site an oil boiler in the same locations as gas units, all while being able to heat at 40% less per BTU than a comparable Gas unit.

Come on HTP, why can't you guys bring out a modulating oil Munchkin? ;-)
... or for that matter, why can't Viessmann harden it's vitoPlus line to tolerate US sulphur levels? :-(

Oh well.

scrook_2 · April 2004

in the NE

Oil's *already* nearly 40% cheaper than NG in recent years!

J.C.A._3 · April 2004

Last year,

At the Brookhaven National Labs, we got to see a Japanese modulating oil burner. The original was voice activated, but the lab sent out for a touch screen after finding their Japanese wasn't so good.

It modulated from .25 to a little over 1.00 GPH. Interesting concept. This year we will get a chance to see the new offering from Herrman. Alan and his buddy Andrew are doing the guineapig thing with it as of last weekend. I'm sure they'll keep posting on OTT about the numbers and reliability factors. Anything is "doable", but reliability, ease of install and maintenance are going to be the deciding factors. Chris

Robert O'Connor_3 · April 2004

Monitor FCX

I thought they use the Heatwise Pioneer burner which has a high and low firing range.

Kal Row · April 2004

at the end of the day....

load staging multiple boilers is more efficient - not to mention, more reliable - without all the eggs in one basket

like how do you modulate the swirl chamber at the top of an oil nozzle - oh let me guess, with one of those embedded new nano-motor chips, that will reshape the whole swirl chamber on the fly - ::-)

think outside the box - but try to stay on the planet - ok

you want efficient - put up a staged wall of small rannai tankless heaters - they even make external ones with freeze protection - so you can do it on an outside wall - and if you cant get gas, they will run just fine on propane! Not to mention, give you an endless supply of DHW, www.rannai.us

Constantin · April 2004

But only in the NE of the USA...

..and parts of Canada too, I hear. Considering the extremely high distribution charges we face in Boston, ($0.93/therm) I'm surpised that oil isn't more competitive elsewhere as well.

scrook_2 · April 2004

I think

elsewhere your closer to the sources so distribution costs fall, also in more recently developed regions there wasn't the coil to oil shift so oil never became as solidly established.

scrook_2 · April 2004

why not...

even high/low fire, (say 1.5:1 or 2:1 turndown) as is done on commercial sized burners, w/ a two staged t-stat or controller? Simplier and cheaper to make, set up and control, yet keeps the system more closely matched to the load. If the load is matched to the fire than it might even be a non condensing system, but you could try to make a condensing (either at low fire or both) system too and wring the last bit of heat out of the oil, though low or ultra low sulfur fuel would be prefered -- hopefully the shifts to ULS road fuels will drag heating fuel S down with it.

This might have much better R.O.I. and relability than full modulation.

eleft_4 · April 2004

\"Europeans are usually ahead\"

If our oil was billed per quart at our per gallon price the USA would make some quick changes.

Well.......Maybe not, look at the gas hog vehicles clogging our highways every morning and evening!

al

Jamie Hall · April 2004

It isn't the R&D

it's the lawyers. Nobody in the good ol' USA is going to market anything which isn't absolutely bulletproof lest they get sued by some hotshot who needs a new BMW.

eleft_4 · April 2004

re: R&D

You maybe correct, but the lawyers are hired by people more concerned with the color of the wine they are going to serve than what effects their cost of comfort.

al

Kal Row · April 2004

hook up an combution analyzer to a modulating boiler

and you will instantly know why not

without serious electronics and mechanical controls that change everything down to combustion chamber size - not just fuel/air mix - it will never be as good a something designed to run fixed in a narrow temp range

the weil-mclain ultra - is a great modulating boiler and it has lousy tolerances on the o2 and c02 I still dont have hard evidence that a primary/secondary/injection mixed down cast iron setup run between 140-180 costs more to run than a fully condensing with weaker combustion tolerances, sure, your extracting all the heat from the flue gases but the modulating combustion inefficiencies may offset the savings, and be equal to a mixed down non-condensing

what I am sure is cheaper, is fixed, efficient combustion, where the load is adjusted by mixing and staging if I was using oil, I would get a couple of smaller oil burners from energy-kinetics (http://www.energykinetics.com/) and stage and mix then id be sure because its fixed combustion even a little condensing, and with staging and mixing I could match the load perfectly every time,
I am sure tekmar would back me up on this, if I was wrong the WM CG-GOLD or the Burnham Revolution would cease to exist

Lurker_2 · April 2004

fuel injection

All the hardware is there. PWM a fuel injector, variable speed vent fan, hmmmm, mebee a oxygen sensor for feedback.......

heatboy · April 2004

What a nightmare...............

a modulating oil burner would be. Too complicated for any real value. Even Viessmann won't go beyond a two stage residential oil burner and that is going to be a steep enough learning curve when it hits these shores. The Vitoplus 300 is Viessmann's wall mounted two stage oil fired condensing boiler. I would say it's about as far as you can logically go with oil.

Viessmann also offers the new Vitolaplus 300 oil fired condensing boiler. Blue Flame burner and a the Inox-Radial secondary heat exchanger (like the Vitodens) It resembles the Vitola we have, which is still my favorite all around boiler. Here is a cut-away view.

http://www.viessmann.de/web/germany/com_publish.nsf/Content/Vitolaplus300-Produktschnitt

If we ever get decent fuel to work with, THIS is the boiler I would love to see here.

hb

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Alan R. Mercurio_3 · April 2004

Heatboy, I hung a dream catcher over Andy's boiler to prevent any nightmares

Seriously though so far (day 4) it's running nice and smooth. We will keep everyone informed as the research continues.

Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

Oil Tech Talk

heatboy · April 2004

Alan, I meant no disrespect...........

to you. You have forgotten more about oil heating than I could ever hope to know. I guess I'm in the camp of, "Just because you can, why would you?"

How are you adressing the venting issues (low temperature gases) that will happen during low fire? Venting a modulating oil burner is going to be an (major) issue, don't you think?

hb

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Alan R. Mercurio_3 · April 2004

I didn't sense any disrespect from you and I don't believe you ever would be disrespectful to any one you're just to nice a guy

And don't sell yourself short Jeff you're among one of the most intelligent guys I know in our industry. I mean that from the heart.

You are absolutely right the temps are going to have to be watched and controlled very carefully and system design and installation from hydronic piping to flue venting will be crucial no room for error here. But that's part of what raising the bar is about trying to remove the error of our ways eh?

In this case on start up Monday on low fire we experienced a low stack temp of 290 degree's interestingly enough though we have not seen any signs of condensing which I was expecting. I think because it ramps up to 370 degree's on occasion it's keeping the chimney and flues passes dry.

Time will tell and like I said we will keep every one informed.

Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

Oil Tech Talk

S Ebels · April 2004

I believe

Weishaupt has a modulating oil burner available. Residential sizes are the question mark. One of those hung on a Vitola would be awesome to say the least.

Yes, you can sidewall vent an oil fired Vitola. They are a Stainless stell version of Tjernlunds gas power venter. Part numbers 7133 423 through 426 depending on the BTU you are firing.

Weezbo · April 2004

as this is an experiment...

could you please cool the oil lines to the boiler using a freeze machine to check how this preforms with incoming oil temps in say 25-below 30 below 35 below zero F range. be fair and check stack(beyond the barometric if there is one) breach , and fire box chamber.

Kal Row · April 2004

for low oil temps they would need a centrifugal output filter

Mark Hunt · April 2004

Alan

What kind of draft are we talking? Does it remain constant with lower flue temps?

Mark H

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Constantin · April 2004

Excellent News

I will investigate the use of the FCX and the Viessmann then. Many thanks for the info, it will be very useful!

Firedragon_4 · April 2004

Although it's not a true

modulating burner I've had a low-hi-low in my home since 1985. It replaced the comparable model as a single-stage. The savings has been about 15% annually.

It fires on demand (hi) based on a flow switch for DHW and on outdoor reset and runs on low for the tankless (free-standing) and the 5 zone valves. Again, it's not full modulating, but it's a lot better than single-stage, FACT!

jweglarz@hotmail.com · April 2004

centrifical filter

kal, what is this filter you are talking about? thanks, joe

Kal Row · April 2004

they have it on lot of desiel or

commercial oil installs, it's a wider can in the flue with multiple spinning pinwheels that make the particulates fall out of the mix and collect at the outside bottom of the wide can

Modulating Oil

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