1/2\" Pex used for Baseboards - Bad Installation

hr

I understand

it just seems some of your drawings and calcs don't add up. As Steve mentioned, unless there is a PAB in that baseboard loop it can't possibly work. A few minor changes like that, if it is correctly drawn, may in fact salvage what you have without invasive measures.

What we need to do is assemble is a team like Queer eye for the straight guy. Well not Exactly like that but a bunch of hydronic contractors that swoop in and redo inefficient or incorrect systems.

All we need is some funding from ?? HVAC TV, wealthy magazines, Donald Trump??

Plenty of positive energy going towards your system, I'm sure it will get resolved.

hot rod

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....jc

Look's correct. Out from boiler; pump; 'T' to Grundfos; 'T' to pump for BB; 'T' back from BB; 'T' to WH pump; 'T' back from WH; back to boiler.
Yes, the pic that is visible *is* the 3 BB zones connections to the 'BB' loop. In that pic, the flow is right to left.
It's tough to take a 3 dimensional 'thing' and draw it in 2. I just checked, and 2 of the Tacos have the 'barrel' vertically(upside down).

Thanks,
....jc

S Ebels

OK

Based on Mark's calculations of flow and head, and the demented piping, here's what you could do. On your pic that shows the zone valves and the supply loops, you could have your piping wizard install a pressure bypass valve or differential pressure bypass valve and set it at about 7.5 ft of head. This would force the water to circulate out to the zones, dump water back to the boiler when only 1 or 2 zones are calling and probably help that electricity sucking 0011 to live longer. The PBV would be installed right where the support for the tubing is on your pic. This would effectively split the supply and return side of the BB loops.

Chime in here Mark and Hot Rod. Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing?

....jc

Ok, it's been a while since I took 'Fluid Mechanics' in school, but this is sad. Of course, water(like anything else), is going to take the path of least resistance, and that path is right by the BB loops. So this is the main problem?

Thanks,
....jc

S Ebels

Look's pretty basic to me

Difficult to see every detail from here in Michigan but that looks like your problem. You really should get someone out there to confirm but I'd lay a good sum of money on it.

You are correct, water is lazy and will always follow the path of less resistance. In your case this would be right past the zones and back to the boiler, especially with all the head you have out there from the smallish tube in your zones.

Weezbo

sooo ....

wow. .. the dribbles of information shucks.... well remember when i asked if the supply and return were possibly hooked to the same header on two of the zones?... well,...its better than that:) basically all three of them are lashed up that way:)))here try this for a day ...cut a ball valve in on the loop of the base board after the first three supply pipes. turn the boiler back on.open up the zones and call someone like Mark to bring a few tools and a couple pieces "With" make a Large pot of coffee...it may benifit to feed him for a day:))Too:) I can say he probably could use some food:) most of these guys keep working and working and working food is nice some times:) If i was anywhere in your neighbour hood i could probably find these guys with out a telephone...just tune in on the Vibe:)))we just lashed up a buderas saturday,sunday went back and drug the other one outta the crawl space...On my Light Day:)))

Mark Eatherton1

Pipe eye for the hydronics guy...

I like that HR, now all we have to do is get a big time sponsor or two. We can get Hollywood Yates to be a co-star and have his son be the director. I've got some filming experience myself!

But we digress... I agree with Steve and everyone else. You're currently only getting gravity circulation right now.

I've generated two drawings. One showing how the system SHOULD be piped, and one showing what you could do to your current system to get some decent heat delivered to the BBR's.

I'm also a little suspect about the MixMiser. I googled it and came up empty. Who manufactures it?

I've drawn in a simple 3 way valve to limit the temperature to the tubes in the cement. Make sure that both pumps are of the same size on this circuit, and that they both have check valves on their pump outlets.

In my quick fix drawing, I also agree with Weezbo. Cut in a ball valve in the vertical line that I erased, and close it and watch the space light up with heat. Or, do as I've drawn and eliminate the loop connection completely.

As for me coming up there, it'd have to be in a couple of weeks. I'm on call for a trial for the next two weeks.

It might be easier to get Duncan up there to get you straightened out. I'll drop him a line and see if he's interested. Course, he travels a lot in his other job and may not be available either. One good thing, its SPRING TIME in the Rockies:-)

Heres the long term fix. THe short term fix is clickable,

ME

GJACK

the miximiser....

is an injection pump by Grundfos - isn't it? It is a VS circulator with a feed, return & ourtdoor sensors.

GJACK

ScottMP

Mark ?

Is the Grundfos pump for the floor heat also in the wrong location ?

Should'nt it be between the mixing valve and the floor ?

This would effect the output of the floor correct ?

Scott

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Mark Eatherton1

Thanks Gregg

I tried going to the Grundfos website to no avail. I've placed a call on the wall to Rich Corcoran. We should get this part resolved soon.

ME

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Mark Eatherton1

Not sure Scott...

we'll find out from Rich Corcoran.

ME

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Mark Hunt

Miximiser


If it is piped EXACTLY as shown, it is wrong.

No different from any other VS injection system, except that it has all of the components built-in.

Mark H

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ScottMP

Thats what

I thought Mark.

HR made me write 100 times, I will never pipe towards a mixing valve. It sunk in.

Scott

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hr

The MixiMiser

is a Grundfos circulator with a tekmar board built into it. A very simple to use VS injection pump. It even has an intergral flow check.

It's my favorite VS injection set up. Plug it into an outlet, strap on the sensors and set the curve.

But it won't work the way your drawing shows it!

hot rod

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....jc

New Schematic...

Folk's,
I updated the schematic because I found a few things that were missed or not shown properly. #1 - A Spirovent was missed that is connected to the boiler output; #2 - The expansion tank is on a 'T' and not inline. Everything else was checked again, and is Ok.

Thanks,
....jc

Mark Eatherton1

Miximiser added to SunDogs systems (correctly)

I spoke with Rich Corcoran this PM and he straightened me out. Here's the corrected drawing showing it in place.

JC, I've not shown a lot of critical valves that will make filling and purging a breeze. What I'm trying to say is, "Don't try this at home. These stunts are performed by paid professional fools..."

ME

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....jc

Mark,
I don't see a difference in the way my radiant(in floor) zones are piped vs this new diagram. What am I missing? As far as 'paid professional fools', that *is* the reason for my posts here! I'd like to get a plan put together, not only to make it work, but to make it work efficiently! I'm talking about new pex runs, maybe additional baseboards, and of course the boiler piping. Now, the boiler installer, may want to fix the problems there. The baseboard installers I don't want back. If you can assist, in any fashion, that would be great. Please let me know.
Thanks,
....jc

Mark Eatherton1

Beauty...

and professionalism is in the eye of the beholder. The comment about prof fools was strictly with tounge in cheek.

There are a LOT of hydronic wannabes out here that would probably install the drawing EXACTLY as drawn, then would charge you for 8 hours to purge the system because its not conducive to purge as drawn. Trade secrets... (Grass Hopper, you must THINK like water in order to be the master of water...) Properly set up, your system would take less than an hour to fill and purge.

When I look at your drawings, I see bull headed tees, which are common in domestic plumbing systems because they have 70 PSI of driving force. It makes no difference to domestic plumbing.

In our case we have 7 PSI of driving force, and it makes ALL the difference in the world. That's but one difference between the hydronic wannabe you hired, and the professionals that frequent this site. Hard for the untrained eye to discern the difference, but it makes ALL the difference in the world where the rubber meets the road.

Just because a person knows how to solder does not give him any rights to "dabble" in hydronics.

It IS an art, tempered by science and proven experience.

Obviously, we are willing to help you to a point, but if you're not comfortable with the help you have, you either need a professional design, or a professional contractor, or both.

There's only so much we can do by the i-net.

Before you start ripping sheet rock off the ceilings and out of the walls, I'd correct what's in your mechanical room first. You'll be suprised at what these systems CAN do versus what they're SUPPOSED to do.

Theoreticals are one thing. Actualities are another.

Your plan should be to straighten out the mechancal room first and let the home go through another winter. Make notes of what rooms seem coolers than others, and THEN form a plan for augmentation if necessary.

I read a report once where a bunch of mechanical engineers forced 200 GPM through a 1/2 copper pipe. The pipe disolved after a while, but there really wasn't the noise factor that they expected. Sometimes, certain limitations are so ingrained in our heads that we have a tendency to focus on those given parameters and refuse to look outside of the box.

Let's straighten out the driving forces before we focus on the distribution system.

ME

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....jc

GET A CLUE!(MAYBE IN DENVER YOU CAN BUY ONE?)

> Obviously, we are willing to help you to a point, but if
> you're not comfortable with the help you have, you either > need a professional design, or a professional contractor,
> or both.
WHERE? YELLOW PAGES? WORD-OF-MOUTH? WHY THE ^&%$* DO YOU THINK THAT I'M HERE. I'VE HIRED 2 LOSERS(0 FOR 2), WHERE AM I GONA GO?

> There's only so much we can do by the i-net.
I ALREADY INDICATED THAT THIS WAS *NOT* A DIY PROJECT. I AM TRYING TO GET INFO TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION ON WHAT PATH TO TAKE. I ALSO INDICATED THAT YOU *MIGHT* BE THE PERSON TO DO THE WORK.

> Before you start ripping sheet rock off the ceilings and
> out of the walls, I'd correct what's in your mechanical
> room first. You'll be suprised at what these systems CAN
> do versus what they're SUPPOSED to do.
AND YOU'D BE SURPRISED HOW MANY DUMB %^#$*! THERE ARE OUT THERE.

NUF SAID....

Mark Eatherton1

Jeeze Mr Cogan...

you sound pretty frustrated. I'm going to turn the other cheek:-)

I'm still available to help, it's just that I've got about a days worth of work in here, for free...

And if need be, I'll continue to work for free. I've done it millions of times.

No offense intended. You need to step back and take a deep breath.

As I said a long time ago, we WILL get your situation resolved, one way or another...

We are men of resolve. Resoultion. Fini. Comfort....

Sorry about your predicament. We're only trying to help:-)

PS You DONT have to YELL!, I can hear you perfectly fine;-)

As always,

ME

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Mark Eatherton1

P.S.

This is a learning/teaching environment. Believe it or not, thousands of DIY homeowners have hopefully read this thread and realize the value in a true hydronic professional.

And that's important.

But it's not going to stop weekend warriors like MYSELF from taking on weekend projects, be they tile replacement to heating system replacement.

May the DIY'er live for ever. (Jim, I know you're not a big DIY'er) Just make sure yo do it right so no one dies...

Thank you for teaching millions. Honestly.

ME

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Floyd_5

Mark,

I have often marveled at your patience and perserverance.....
the frustration here is obvious.

Thanks for showing your integrity and not responding in like manner to him.....
the thread has been informative and hopefully helpfull to many!!

THANKS!!!!! for all the time you are willing to invest here, it is helpfull not only to the DIY'ers that check things out before the attempt of decide not to attempt their "projects", but also to those of us that are trying to be the best that we can be, at the profession that we make our living at.

Keep up the GREAT!!!! work.....

Floyd

Weezbo

oki lets discuss chillers.

All i need is a GD spark plug fo this POS! what conceivable differenc does it make if its a 91 0r a 85 it a Dang Blasted Truck!...chill...it really fornicates the mind sometimes when we are making every attempt to be clear and concise.... we been hanging With you a while now JC the small snfu you are running into here is we can do....youd like to know well wada%@*& ..here you have some individuals and really man , Individuals.we can make things Work...hot rod gave you a great idea scrook was right there for you,and Mark man mark has thunk every kinda way could be thunk.it must make you feel really depressed that the other guys didnt finish the job in the first place...maybe just maybe they might not have underestimated the system you needed...the truth sometimes needs no defending it just IS. call the base board guys back...say look come on back over i would like you to change a pump out and put in a valve... here is what they will think.."SO, The boiler guy Fornicated it all up and now he wants US to come back and fix it!" let them think that, we all do...maybe when they have stuck in the ball valve (or erased the line entirely as Mark ,suggests..) changed the 0011 for a 007 bingo! everything is headed around in circles again. heat is happening .you comfortable. they feel half way decent about thier field work again...just see if it aint sorta like that...

Mark Eatherton1

Floyd...

Thanks for the kudos, it humbles me.

Thank You for being as professional as you can. It means a lot.

That's what makes this site different from all the others.

Professionalism.

Thanks to Dan the TLM for making it possible...

ME

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Mark Eatherton1

Well said Weezy...

Couldn't have said it better unless I'd have said it from Alaska!

ME

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Weezbo

some other thought comes to mind ask..

the base board guys Say what would you recommend with this variable speed here...I'm thinking maybe ...

Mark Eatherton1

I'm thinkng..

a Taco 00 whatever with a Delta T controller on it...

ME

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Mark Hunt

Look closely

at how the Grundfos pump is installed in ME's drawing compared to what your drawing shows. Not even close.

That injection pump will be displacing "zone" water with "boiler" water. In your drawing there is no way for this to happen.

Mark H

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Mark Eatherton1

I wanted everyone to know...

Mr Cogan did appologize to me off line for his exhuberent reply. He, like may homeowners, is extremely frustrated by supposed experts out there trying to make a living.

Appology accepted.

ME

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Mark Eatherton1

The Saga continues....

Duncan Wilson, fine gent that he is, has taken on the task of correcting this FUBAR system. He's made a couple of visits, and performed some initial OHhhh- AHhh testing, and has come up with the following, baffling information. Just when you think its safe to go back in the water... Here's his latest report;

Well... Imagine my surprise when I turned on a base board zone at John Cogan's place, and the baseboard zone heated fine!

That secondary header that has three zone valves on the left (returns) and three supply risers to the right? Picture attached.

Started the zone, supply risers to the right got hot quickly. The entire 1¼ header to the left of the returns (zone valves) stayed cool to the touch, while the risers to the right were too hot to touch.

It took TWO MINUTES for the heat to come around, and the returns to the left got hot.

In other words, there IS flow through the baseboards.

Take a good look at the photo, and tell me. What do you think is happening?

I know what I came up with, and I think you'll figure it out just like I did. I figured if anyone would know how this is happening, you would.

TWO MINUTES !!! With a Taco 0011 !!! Gotta get this guy more flow. Back to the drawing board...


Duncan Wilson

End of Duncans text. My response back to him was that it sounded as if there were a full or partial slug in the coupling. I recommended that he try closing all side branches, and then slam the isolation valve for the pump with the pump running to see if he could hear a hydraulic HISS. If he does, its an orifice. If he doesn't, its a full plug slug soldered into the coupling. Based on his report that the one side was COMPLETELY cool, I doubt that its an orfice.

Heres a picture of the culprit.

Fear not, Mr Wilson WILL get it resolved.

Thanks Duncan.

ME


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