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1/2\" Pex used for Baseboards - Bad Installation
....jc
Member Posts: 35
Folk's please see: http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=48266&pagenumber=1
I had a plumber install H/W baseboards and he used 1/2" pex. Apparently, the zones are too large, and the system can't handle cold days.
Looking for a pro in the Colorado area to make recommendations for fixing this mess.
Thanks,
....jc
I had a plumber install H/W baseboards and he used 1/2" pex. Apparently, the zones are too large, and the system can't handle cold days.
Looking for a pro in the Colorado area to make recommendations for fixing this mess.
Thanks,
....jc
0
Comments
-
Where...
in Colorado?
Questions for you.
1. How big is the pump thats currently pushing the water for this loop.
2. How many feet of 1/2 pipe, and fin tube?
3. What temperature is your Munchkin running at when its real cold outside?
4. What brand of tubing was used for the install?
Got pictures or drawings?
ME0 -
Need to know
the total load of the building, and the zones. 1/2" can work if the loops are short and or a higher delta t is used.
First you need a load calc, then the baseboard can be sized correctly.
Are you sure it is not 5/8" pex. That is a common baseboard size. Looks smaller than 3/4"
Sounds like you may need someone to actually look over and run some calcs for you. Plenty of good hydronicians in Colorado. Mark Eatherton, above post, would be an excellent start. I'm sure he could refer you to a good set of eyes if you are out of his range. He's trained many of 'em
Don't abandon ship yet!
hot rod
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How much radiation are you try to support?
With 1/2" PEX, you can carry 30' of 490 BTUH per foot baseboard at a 20° Delta T with no problem. You haven't provided enough information to tell, but it sounds like there may be other issues.
What does the installing contractor have to say?
hb
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"There was an error rendering this rich post.
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> in Colorado?
Woodland Park, to be exact...
> 1. How big is the pump thats currently pushing the water > for this loop.
The boiler dude(not the clown that put in the baseboards) started with a Taco 7, and now we are at a Taco 11. That's the pump for the 3 baseboard zones.
> 2. How many feet of 1/2 pipe, and fin tube?
There are 3 baseboard zones. I don't have exact measurements, but they are all in the 100'-150' range. That would include the pex as well as the baseboards.
> 3. What temperature is your Munchkin running at when its > real cold outside?
That I really don't know. I can find out, if you'll tell me what to do.
>4. What brand of tubing was used for the install?
Wirsbo 1/2" HePex.
>Got pictures or drawings?
I can get you anything that you need.
Thanks,
....jc
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> the total load of the building, and the zones.
I had 3 heat calcs done(2 myself). And the load varies from 120,000 to 170,000. I don't however, have the calcs broken into the zones...
> Are you sure it is not 5/8" pex. That is a common
> baseboard size. Looks smaller than 3/4"
Per the previous post, I just went into the utility room to triple check. Wirsbo 1/2".
> Sounds like you may need someone to actually look over
> and run some calcs for you. Plenty of good hydronicians
> in Colorado. Mark Eatherton, above post, would be an
> excellent start. I'm sure he could refer you to a good
> set of eyes if you are out of his range. He's trained
> many of 'em
That's *exactly* what I'm looking for! I've got to make this work, or I may be living elsewhere %^). I need to figure out how to make this installation efficient, as it was supposed to be saving us $$$, but now it's costing us $$$.
Thanks,
....jc
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Duncan Wilson
is in your back yard (Florissant).
Does the Munchkin have a remote readout on it? That, or a thermometer on the boiler outlet will tell you how hot the water is getting.
Are you POSITIVE you have the Vision 1 kit installed?
If you do, it may not be programmed right and all the flow in the world won't make you warm...
We'll get you fixed one way or tuther..
ME0 -
> With 1/2" PEX, you can carry 30' of 490 BTUH per foot
> baseboard at a 20° Delta T with no problem. You haven't
> provided enough information to tell, but it sounds like
> there may be other issues.
If you need further info, just ask! But, I'm not a heating pro, so you'll need to ask. What I gather from the other board, is that the zones are just too large.
> What does the installing contractor have to say?
The contractor that installed the baseboards, has not been back. He bid on the boiler installation, but I went with another contractor. The contractor that installed the boiler blames the 1/2" pex as the problem. He wants to, for a nice cost, install a pump on each of the 3 baseboard zones. But, since I'm not sure that will work, I'm looking for a pro to analyze the situation and figure out what will work.
Thanks,
....jc
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Lets do this...
You must know what base boards are in what zones. And based on your comments, you must know what direction the water runs.
Give us a verbal description of each zone from the time the water laves the mechancal room until it gets back. I.E. 27 feet of run to the first board, first board is 6 feet long, room load is 3000 btus, 15 feet from first board to second board. Second board is 4 foot long, room load is 1500 btuH. And so on and so forth. I can then model your system using some superduper software and tell you exactly what will happen.
JPEG drawings using MS Paint would be helpful too.
ME0 -
> Does the Munchkin have a remote readout on it? That, or a
> thermometer on the boiler outlet will tell you how hot
> the water is getting.
Yes, a gauge on the output. I just tested a lower level radiant(floor) loop and it's getting to 175 degrees and 13 psi just after a Taco 7 on the boiler outlet. It's too hot upstairs to try the baseboards %^), but I'll look in the morning when it's running for them...
> Are you POSITIVE you have the Vision 1 kit installed?
No. The contractor said that it would cost several hundred $$$ to install it(extra electronics), and I agreed. There is an outdoor temp sensor and another sensor attached to the piping for the radiant floor zones. They hook to a 'MixMiser'...
>If you do, it may not be programmed right and all the flow
>in the world won't make you warm...
I can under stand that...
> We'll get you fixed one way or tuther..
Sounds great!
Thanks,
....jc
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>You must know what base boards are in what zones. And
>based on your comments, you must know what direction the
>water runs.
Well, I *used* to know which way the water ran! But now since the lower level is finished, that's not an easy thing. But I can prolly just feel the baseboards to find out.
> Give us a verbal description of each zone from the time
> the water laves the mechancal room until it gets back.
> I.E. 27 feet of run to the first board, first board is 6
> feet long, room load is 3000 btus, 15 feet from first
> board to second board. Second board is 4 foot long, room
> load is 1500 btuH. And so on and so forth. I can then
> model your system using some superduper software and tell
> you exactly what will happen.
Ok, that'll take a little time, the measurements(except baseboards) will be estimates. The baseboards are Slant Fin's, but I don't know the model.
> JPEG drawings using MS Paint would be helpful too.
I'll see what I can do.
Thanks Mark,
....jc
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Pushing limits
With Siggys software I have a 69 foot of 1/2 bb with 150 feet of 1/2" pex. Supply 180 return 156°
Velocity did creep over 4 fps to 4.8. But I got to 30,000 BTU in this zone!
You can model the complete job and zones with this program. If someone were to show up with this Design Software on a laptop they could do a "realtime" load calc, and model your entire system to get an exact answer
You might try the demo at www.hydronicpros to get some examples.
hot rod
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If this works, here's a layout of the upper level...
It's been a while, so the pex runs in Zone 2 may be incorrect, but close. I remember arguing with the plumber on including the 2 baseboards(entry & bath) in the largest zone(Zone 2). As you can see a lot of pex was wasted there! It may be correctable?(Is that a word?). I thought that Zone 3 was more appropriate. The baseboards, I believe, are 3/4". They used reducers to connect the pex.
The 32' x 24' area is above a garage, and I haven't yet replaced the drywall that was removed for the installation. So, that area will be the easiest to fix/change.
Thanks,
....jc0 -
Still need...
room by room loss calcs and actual feet of board. Your dwg has no scale, so we can't figure it out.
If worse comes to worser, you could install a reversing valve that would chase the cold away.
ME0 -
air.
i think you have air in the zones if they arent comming back. i've run 54 feet of 3/4 Baseboard and a hundred feet of 1/2" in Alaska in extreme 57- F and there are no complaints.the books say 47' max welll i dont belive everything i read.check for an air lock back flush the system and put a 006 or007 back on the system. ihonestly Know you can get heat out of any system just how much and where:))) now thats another deal. however with air locking a zone the heat isnt comming Back or the heat isnt being distributed properly. in other words you are trying to heat the space with the boiler and not with the distribution system,0 -
pressure?
give us a Clue.....what is the boiler pressure and temps at when the boiler kicks on and what are they when they kick off?......have you isolated the zones one at a time and made sure you have FLOW? is there any possibility that you have the supply hooked to the return ........supply on another zone?
connected to the return?..... that is like a short circuit in electrical wiring .0 -
If my math is
correct, you have 144 feet of bb? 600 BTU/ ft at 180° gives you 86,400 BTU/hr.
Quite a bit short of the 120-150,000 calcs you have.
You REALLY need to do the room by room loss calc, and narrow down you actual load.
Flow reversal would be another excellent idea. The April issue of Siggys column in PM magazine will go into this and show a valve that a manufacture has prototyped for this application.
hot rod
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Hot rod 's idea has lots of merit
flow reversal is a great idea too. like he said though because you have many lineal feet of out side walls you really need to treating each room or space according to its heat loss rather than bunching it all up on one loop and calling it good.He like many other here have shined up those crystal ball and x-ray glasses JUST fo You!...Flow reversal is a Great idea. do it on a heavy freeze and you are up and away alot sooner.0 -
4-way valve
http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/prod/016.html
motor for it is avail
there are plenty out there0 -
The valve I build
goes from one extreme to the other in a few seconds. I'm not sure tekmar has an operator and control that drives from full open to full close, at timed intervals? And at what cost?
Also I was trying to get something in the $200 range. Since it is usually a desperation fix
I cobbled this together with off the shelf parts. Sounds like the sample sent to Siggy comes in around this $ range. Theres looks a bit nicer too!
Could there be applications where you put long loops in on purpose??? Hmm wait a couple weeks for some answers.
hot rod
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I hope...
when this new fangled 4 way reversing valve comes out that it has a name on it of "The Dave VanWickler" valve.
He's the one that introduced it to us. I think he said he'd learned of it in Germany, where it is commonly used.
I've had to use it a couple of times, and it works fantastic!
I use a programmable time delay relay from WW Graingers for flip flopping, and a standard 4 way valve Paxton like the one HR uses with the smaller ESBE motor.
Instead of piping as two side by side circles, you pipe it like a cross, with the heat source on the vertical tappings and the load side on the horizontals. If you choose to use it with a zone valve controlled system, you MUST us non flow directional critical valves, like Taco ESP, or Honeywell cartridge or White Rodgers 'How The Hell Are You supposed to wire these things' valves.
HR, who is bringing this valve to market?
ME0 -
>correct, you have 144 feet of bb? 600 BTU/ ft at 180°
>gives you 86,400 BTU/hr.
>Quite a bit short of the 120-150,000 calcs you have.
The calcs are for the whole house. The pic is the layout of the upper level(2,500 sqf). The lower level has the same footprint with the exception that the area under the 24' x 32' space is the unheated garage. So, that leaves a little over 1,700 sqf in the lower level that is heated via radiant floor(and with the new boiler it works great). We may be able to add a few more baseboards on the upper level w/o having to tear down the whole house!
Ok, here's the breakdown of the baseboards:
Zone 1: 27 LF
Zone 2: 56 LF
Zone 3: 35 LF
Total: 119 LF
>You REALLY need to do the room by room loss calc, and
>narrow down you actual load.
That *is* my next project for today. If I can find my notes, it won't take that long.
Thanks,
....jc
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-
Ok,(finally) here's the Heat Loss calcs for the house:
Zone 1:(24' x 24'): 16,524(Btu/hr Loss)
Zone 2:(Hexagon: 1,140 sqf): 37,197(Btu/hr Loss)
Zone 3:(24' x 32'): 17,492(Btu/hr Loss)
Lower Level:(1,680 sqf): 29,186(Btu/hr Loss)
Total: 100,339
Altitude Deration(@ 80%): 125,499
Efficiency Deration(@ 92%): 136,412
Thanks,
....jc0 -
Hey HR
The HDS software is a great asset. You can also hit the print screen button on your KEYBOARD (As opposed to the "print-screen" within the program), go into a WORD document (or VISIO) right click on your mouse, and hit paste, the picture of the HDS module your working on can be saved and incorporated with your heat-loss, design for injection, jobs pics etc. I try to package that with most of my jobs in each jobs JOB FILE. Great way to document along the way. I especially like the INJECTION MIXING SIMULATOR module and attaching that PIC with my jobs.
Regards,
PR0 -
Heating problem
You talked about the boiler contractor wanting to install additional circulators. Is your entire system, all zones, working off only one circulator now? If so, are there any zone valves or individual zone controls?
Regards
Ed carey0 -
Ed,
There are 6 zones in the system. 2 lower level radiant floor zones are each powered by a Taco 7. The indirect W/H is powered by a Taco 8. A Taco 7 is located right at the boiler output, and a Taco 11 powers the 3 baseboard loops. I just noticed that the baseboard returns are located in the same loop. Is this a possible problem? There is a zone valve for each of the 3 baseboard zones.
Thanks,
....jc0 -
I hope...
you're sitting down... The results are in and they don't look good at all. Not only is your piping undersized, but your heat emmiters are alos severely undersized.
Based on the information you gave us, zone 1 is as follows;
Calculated load = 16,524 btuH
Actual POTENTIAL delivery based on in place BBR = 17,050
Actual DELIVERED btuH (based on flow, temp drop etc) 12,461
Based on the information you gave us, zone 2 is as follows;
Calculated load = 37,197 btuH
Actual POTENTIAL delivery based on in place BBR = 29,700
Actual DELIVERED btuH (based on flow, temp drop etc) 20,322
Based on the information you gave us, Basement zone is as follows;
Calculated load = 29,186 btuH
Actual POTENTIAL delivery based on in place BBR = 22,000
Actual DELIVERED btuH (based on flow, temp drop etc) 14,738
Not good news, but I made some assumptions that need to be verified before we condemn the system.
I assumed a delivery capacity of 550 btu/linear foot per hour. Yours may be more, but I doubt it. See if you can find that information out. If not, take pictures and send them here and we will identify it.
A four way reversing valve would probably help. but I'm not sure it is a cure all.
I hate to say it, because I work for a bunch of lawyers, but you may want to consider retaining one. I will not work as an expert witness against a fellow tradesman, but I can work as a mediator, telling him what needs to be done.
Sorry for the bad news... Here's a screen shot of the results, and they look pretty bad.
ME0 -
i finally see the picture of the boiler room.
this is an observation...besides the boiler sits a very reliable chunk of Back up heat...the boch....it has a oil fired burner ,so....i think that you could pull some of the btus from there to help shoulder the load....pul a plate exchanger off of it and take some of the weight off the slab or the baseboard. the base board itself sounds like abit of a bumma..i just looking at it would hazard 500btu a lineal foot of exterior wall up stairs ... oh and i hope you dont have potable water in the ceiling of the garage...of course it gets a lot colder and sometimes for a lot longer periods of time. so 260 lineal feet isnt like absolutely correct how some ever it is going to tbe closer than 144 lineal that you have now. Mark (ME) are the walls between the house and garage insulated in this mans neighbourhood?0 -
You completely lost me here! I'm not sure what a 'boch' is, but it's not there! On the right edge of the pic is the forced air gas furnace which was supposed to be a back-up, but due to this fiasco, actually fires up when it's really cold out. And, yes, the walls between the garage & house are insulated(it's code up here).
Thanks,
....jc
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Before we throw the baby out with the water...
I just noticed your picture of the mechanical room. Need more close ups of the pictures. If possible, could you provide a schematic of the piping at the near boiler?
Although it appears to me primary secondary, any time you have more than one pump in parallel, you MUST have check valves on all distribution pumps. If you don't have, you won't get proper circulation out to the outlying zones.
Here are some symbols you can use with MS Pain to assemble a drawing.
As an aside, it is entriely possible that you home can be maintained with less than require baseboard due to things that are not taken into consideration in the heat loss calculations. Things like internal gains (bodies, lights, appliances, solar) and the flywheel mass effect of all the internal components.
Lets have a looksee. BTW, Wheezbo thinks your DHW tank is oil fired. He doesn't realize that its powered by the Muncher.
ME
ME0 -
Thanks Mark! This confirms what has been happening with this system(runs all night, only keeps house(upper level) warm when outside temp is above 10 degrees. As stated before, the lower level radiant works fine. How much of a difference would 3/4" pex have made? Is that hard to 'plug in'(to your calcs)?
Ok, now that we know of the problem, what is the best way to fix it? From a damage standpoint, the area above the garage(24' x 32') will be the easiest because the drywall removed has yet to be replaced. Zones 1 & 2 will be a pain. Since lawsuits don't always turn out the way they should, I've got to proceed as if it won't happen. Ok, gentlemen, what's the plan?
Thanks,
....jc0 -
Pics, no problemo, a schematic, hmmm, I'm not sure what does what! Check valves, unless they are contained within the pumps, they aren't there. Do you need the exact model number of the pumps?
Internal gains, YES!!!! On a sunny day(like today up here), the large area(Zone 2) will probably reach 90 degrees(100+ on the ceiling). So, it doesn't really matter how cold it is outside, if the sun is shining, Zone 2 won't be on.
Thanks,
....jc
0 -
Yes...
Need EXACT model numbers. If it has a check valve in it, it will be reflected in the model number.
ME0 -
Mark - Here is the info on the pumps: 2 for radiant floor are: Taco 007-ZF5-5; 1 for indirect W/H: Taco 008-F6; @ boiler output: 1 Taco 007-F5; For baseboard zones: 1 Taco 0011-F4; And hooked to the MixMiser: 1 Gundfos UP 15-42 FC/MR. Boiler pics to follow.
Thanks,
....jc0 -
Still need a schematic...
the pictures don't do it justice
ME0 -
I think you really
need to have someone look at it. Sometimes a fix presents itself better when you see the system first hand not via the www.
Pay Mark of another knowledgable contractor to show up, confirm the loss calcs, look over repipe options, if needed, and make a plan.
I'm not sure any of us can fix it "cyber-ly" Not trying to be a butt head, but... before you start ripping, tearing, and swearing
hot rod
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Ok, here's the schematic. If something doesn't look right, let me know as I could've made a mistake!
Thanks,
....jc0 -
The loop with the 011
Is not right aaaaatall. Is it piped exactly as it is drawn? If it is you're likely not getting much flow out to the BB in the first place. The reason would be that it's just a loop on a loop so to speak. In the configuration as drawn the water is not going out to the BB, just making tracks like crazy out and back into the primary loop. If this is really the way it is your fix might just be very simple. Your BB loop should not be a loop, it should just be a couple stubs off the primary. One for the supply side and one for the return. The ends of each should not be connected. You need to erase the red line on the right that connects the supply/return BB piping. Hydronically speaking that is.
Am I correct in assuming that the picture on your post(2:06PM) is the three zones of BB? If it is that's your problem and you can give your installers name to Jeff Foxworthy for use in one of his "here's your sign" jokes. Double check it and get back to us.
BTW: Those Taco's are gonna die with the barrel pointed straight up like that. They should always be horizontal.
Whoops, just noticed the 15-42 is mounted in the same position. That should be changed also.0 -
Hot Rod,
This is *not* a DIY project. I do plan on helping where I can, however a pro(maybe Mark!) will be doing most of the work. I'm just trying to find a solution(s), so that I have some options.
Thanks,
....jc0
This discussion has been closed.
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