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baseboards run at low temps
Kal Row
Member Posts: 1,520
please read first threads:
High efficiency boilers
and
condensing boiler
we are looking for experiences and hard science about the usefulness and efficiency of fin baseboards run at supply temps less than 140
this could change the condensing/non-condensing purchase decision for many people
I just love to start a revolution (pardon me burnham)
High efficiency boilers
and
condensing boiler
we are looking for experiences and hard science about the usefulness and efficiency of fin baseboards run at supply temps less than 140
this could change the condensing/non-condensing purchase decision for many people
I just love to start a revolution (pardon me burnham)
0
Comments
-
Kal, you sure didn't start it.
> please read first to threads: High efficiency
> boilers and condensing boiler
>
> we are
> looking for experiences and hard science about
> the usefulness and efficiency of fin baseboards
> run at supply temps less than 140
>
> this could
> change the condensing/non-condensing purchase
> decision for many people
>
> I just love to start
> a revolution (pardon me burnham)
0 -
Kal, you sure didn't start it.
I put in a condensing boiler in my own home on baseboard.
Design for 130° F water, and use a reset control, and watch the water run out of the condensate drain.
PS, this was in 1991, and the design temp is -20° F.
Noel0 -
Sorry
You waste the efficiency that can be gained by condensing boiler trchnology to high temperature applications. IE BB emitters.
There is a time and place for everything.
Gary
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no rule, just space restriction
There is no reason you can't use baseboard with cooler water, but you need enough baseboard. The length of baseboard you can install is limited by the room perimeter, so in some cases the only way to put out enough heat is to use hotter water. That's all. If you can design for cooler water, i.e. if there is room for enough baseboard, there is no problem. This is not revolution(ary).
Also, baseboard output is not linear. You might expect that it will put out half as much heat with 125F water as it will with 180F water (180-70=110, 125-70=55, 55 is half of 110) but in fact it will emit somewhat less than half. This needs to be allowed for in your design.1 -
the time is now and the place is here
The idea from the other two threads I mentioned, was that if the baseboards can be run at low temps to maintain temps in a space, then a condensing boiler is a better bet than a mixed down non condensing boiler
I works like this: we will use an ULTRA for an example
We start up and run the supply temp up, to even, say 180, on a 20 day, (non condensing mode of course but good combustion and heat transfer nevertheless with an ULTRA)
Then when the space is up to temp, we run the baseboards down to 110 supply and 90 return just to maintain the temp in the space (that is, of course, if it really works)
And even with a mixdown setup: if a baseboard is run by say a tekmar 361, at 140 or less, most of the winter, then the return water, at 20 degrees less, can really benefit from condensings efficiency
Again Looking for well recorded experiences and hard science we dare not just guess as this can help or hurt a lot of people
0 -
I think I said my share to this topic...
...in the oither two threads you mentioned. Basebaord does work with lower temps.
RPG --> Characterized Heating Curves0 -
Kal,
I hear you. I agree completely.
Use Slant/Fin Multi-Pak 80 series 81a baseboard, the high output stuff. Use 330 BTUH per foot. That's not unreasonable; that extruded aluminum baseboard only puts out 200 per foot at high temps.
What's the debate? Anybody that can't see this is trying to sell something else. Sometimes something else is preferred to miles of baseboard. That's completely fair, and right to do.
It works, though.
Noel
0 -
not so simple - it 's not linear
not so simple - it's not linear
if you look at http://www.slantfin.com/spec-baseline2000.html
the btu change for the temp changes are not linear thats why I was asking for science Im stuck
like after what minimum delta-T between the fins and the air does it become effectively useless the transfer efficiency is definitely not linear
and then there are those wonderful myson radiators floyd showed me, what about those at low temps0 -
Do it quite a bit.
While the output a baseboard is minimal at low water temperatures, so is the heat demand when these temperatures are used. The output curve of baseboard is consistent enough that it can be done successfully.
Sizing baseboard to run at a maximum of 140° to 150° is the tough part. You need a lot of wall space. I use Argo Panel Trim with the double tiered element, so it does help use a little less wall space.
Condensing boilers may be used successfully with baseboard or hydro air, for that matter, if it's thought out. Is it the best application? Depends.
hb
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"There was an error rendering this rich post.
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i take it then that
if baseboard's return temps are in the condensing range most of the winter, your vote would be, to buy a condensing setup, rather than a mixdown setup, careful there a real people with real jobs on Burnhams revolution assembly line not to mention the ones on your own mixers, I think Im sorry I started this already - man, hydronics used to be such a technology stable business - now it's getting scary0 -
it would help...
> not so simple - it's not linear
It would help if you would read the post you are replying to.0 -
I have reset
commercial baseboard & fin tube jobs w/ few problems for over 30 years. Most of them have no minimum boiler temperature settings. All are constant circulation. Some are piped primary/secondary, or mix w/ a valve. Some heat H/W. Most don't.
Baseboard, like radiators, gives off btus whenever the circulated water temp exceeds the room temp. 100* water doesn't give off many btus. Then again, you don't need many when the O/D temp is 60*. We service a 3R Kewanee steel boiler, burning 6.5 gph of #2, connected to a baseboard system. Took the H/W coil out 20 years ago & welded over the hole. Operates constant circulation. Haven't replaced a tube or welded anything since removing the coil. No water treatment. Reset temp w/ an HWM 100 Heat-Trol w/ nite set back. No minimum water temp. Aquastat set @ 170* max. Nope. No fireside scale. Tried to sell a new boiler several years ago. Owner showed me the oil consumption. End of sales pitch. Oh yeah. Our fair city mandates 70* @ 0* O/S.
Reset that baseboard. And. Why not a condensing boiler for a residential baseboard system?0 -
My nickel.....
A couple of comments.
First. When calculating the heat load for a space a couple assumptions are made that rarely occur in real life.
1) There are no internal gains. In other words, no one is ever in the space generating body heat, using lights, computurs, taking showers, etc.
2) There are no gains from external sources, Mainly sunlight.
So now we have calculated the heat load for a space which nobody uses and the sun never shines. Now if the space is reasonable well insulated and tight, you start adding people and sunlight.
Here I am sitting at my computer. The computer generates enough heat to raise the temp in this space 5 to 7 degrees above the adjacent spaces. In the morning when the sun comes in, it can bump it another 5 degrees. Now this is happening in each room of a structure throughout the day. What happens is that despite the calulations saying you need to turn on the heat as soon as its below 70F outside, in reality all that internal heat keeps you warm until it is only 60F outside. What in effect has happened is that you just increased the design outdoor temp by 10 F.
Now that baseboard that you designed to run at 180F supply, 160F return (170 average)when its 0F outside , only needs to run at about 155F average temp. Now your return temp is knocking on the edge of condensing, say about 146F. And this is on the design day for a 180F baseboard system.
Yes, convection heating does work at low temps. I have numerous churches with convectors (large baseboard) that regularly run water temps at 80 to 90F. These are buildings that are from 8,000 sq ft to 45,000 sq ft. In some of these those convectors were even originaly designed to work with steam which runs about 215F.
I have several homes that are running full outdoor reset with boiler protection. The systems are very quiet and comfort is much improved over when they ran on/off at 180F.
Boilerpro0 -
Great topic
One that I probably would not give a 2nd thought to , where we work . But then I remember - the homes around here are usually wrapped with baseboard - much more than needed at design temps , to be sure . This came in very handy for the extreme cold we had this past winter , but for a usual winter is overkill . Having a condensing boiler on a system like this sounds like an intruiging idea .
Now , I don't know much about condensing equipment , so bear with me . Are there any oil fired condensing boilers on the market ? And would anyone have some data on side by side comparisons between a condensing and non-condensing boiler connected to a baseboard heat system ? To try to sell this type of system to a homeowner , I know they would want this same data - the most important being how much oil they would save compared to a conventional boiler . I realize this is very subjective , thanks for any info .0 -
try
running your circ constantly and letting the stat run the burner. Just for week. Watch your temps. I'll bet you'll be surprised how low they run.0 -
The question I have
regarding the use of using cooler water temperatures in baseboard or other types of heating devices is that in order to make things condense, how much more are you going to have to spend to make that happen. You will need two to three times more of it to satisfy the heat loss on those few design temperature days regardless of how you operate the system on the intermediate days. Add this expense to the increased cost of the boiler and you have a rather big bill in order to target that 88% to 90%. Why go through with this when you can still acheive 87% to 88% efficiency with a product like the Revolution without the concerns and possible long term maintainance concerns of a condensing boiler?
Glenn0 -
> A couple of comments.
>
> First. When
> calculating the heat load for a space a couple
> assumptions are made that rarely occur in real
> life.
>
> 1) There are no internal gains. In
> other words, no one is ever in the space
> generating body heat, using lights, computurs,
> taking showers, etc. 2) There are no gains
> from external sources, Mainly sunlight.
>
> So
> now we have calculated the heat load for a space
> which nobody uses and the sun never shines.
> Now if the space is reasonable well insulated and
> tight, you start adding people and sunlight.
> Here I am sitting at my computer. The computer
> generates enough heat to raise the temp in this
> space 5 to 7 degrees above the adjacent spaces.
> In the morning when the sun comes in, it can bump
> it another 5 degrees. Now this is happening in
> each room of a structure throughout the day.
> What happens is that despite the calulations
> saying you need to turn on the heat as soon as
> its below 70F outside, in reality all that
> internal heat keeps you warm until it is only 60F
> outside. What in effect has happened is that you
> just increased the design outdoor temp by 10
> F. Now that baseboard that you designed to run
> at 180F supply, 160F return (170 average)when
> its 0F outside , only needs to run at about 155F
> average temp. Now your return temp is knocking
> on the edge of condensing, say about 146F. And
> this is on the design day for a 180F baseboard
> system.
>
> Yes, convection heating does work at
> low temps. I have numerous churches with
> convectors (large baseboard) that regularly run
> water temps at 80 to 90F. These are buildings
> that are from 8,000 sq ft to 45,000 sq ft. In
> some of these those convectors were even
> originaly designed to work with steam which runs
> about 215F.
>
> I have several homes that are
> running full outdoor reset with boiler
> protection. The systems are very quiet and
> comfort is much improved over when they ran
> on/off at 180F.
>
> Boilerpro
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Your Nickel
You siad, "1) There are no internal gains. In other words, no one is ever in the space generating body heat, using lights, computurs, taking showers, etc. 2) There are no gains from external sources, Mainly sunlight."
1) It's my understanding (and I could be wrong) that ACCA manual J in essence figured for a 5º internal heat gain in heat loss applications.
2) I don't think I want to design a system counting on solar gain for our area. We're in one of the top 10 areas for cloudy days.0 -
Here's my Ultra....
@ 118* supply temp.
Actually I think my tester is a bit low......
that's the highest reading I ever got with it....ain't never
seen a furnasty get to that.....even the two stage deals.....
gotta get it on a radiant job with those 90 supply temps.0 -
low temp baseboard
We built our 2,250 sq. ft. home 38 years ago. Insulation was standard for that era (4" fiberglass in walls, no double insulated windows). We installed cast iron gas-fired boiler and baseboard fin-tube with 0 degree design temp. After gas prices escilated, I retrofitted one of our fireplaces with a hot water boiler that I fabricated (approximately 25 years ago). No science here, strickly experience. I just checked the thermometers and O.A.T. is 36 degrees, house temperature is 73 degrees with supply water temp of 125 degrees, return temp of 118 degrees. Also have a tube in shell HTXC connected to our water heater set up now as a preheater. Constant circulation and the only controls on the temperature is the type of wood I burn and the combustion air damper. When O.A.T. is in the single digits, room temp may drop below 65 degrees in the mornings. Other than that, the system works fine and we go back to the gas boiler only in spring and fall. I feel like the secret to success is constant fire and constant circulation. If I ever have to replace my C.I. boiler, I will definitely install a Munchkin with indirect like I just put in my daughter's house. Just my two cents worth.0 -
Don't understand what all the fuss.....
is about.......
So often everyone when talking radiant is looking for the lowest possible temps., except when it comes to baseboard.
We have had it beat into us for so long that certain things have to be certain ways, that we fail to think outside the proveribal box......
is baseboard really that expensive when considering the overall cost of a project???? NO. If we install more, will it cut the supply temps needed??? YES. Can we just go wall to wall and hope for the best??? NO. Do rooms still need a heat loss done and be balanced??? YES. If a project can be done in such a way as to balance the loads and get the heat we need and also get the temps. way down..... why not do it???
With fully modulating equipment and reset the ability to heat alot of the time at very high eff. is available. At today's prices and considering the prices of the future, these sales should not be all that difficult......
However, you CANNOT SELL what you don't believe in!!!!!
If you can get on your soap box and with a clear presentation show your customers that this is what is in their best interest, and why they need to buy your product and your design over the next guy down the road that wants to install that '50's model 80% boiler and 60' of baseboard instead of your 90+% boiler that modulates and 100' of baseboard for double the money... they will buy it.
Why???? because YOU convinced them that this will be intheir best interest and the PRODUCTS that YOU are selling are worth more to THEM then the MONEY in there bank account!!!
Give them something worth MORE than their money..... and they will SPEND it!!!!!!!
Attitude is EVERYTHING!!!!!
Find a good one!!!!!
Floyd0 -
this is good, some meainingfull numbers
your point is a choice i made for someone recently looking at this, cause, if you have a radiant slab at 110 supply and 90 return, most of the time, then ok condensing gets you into the high 90s, but with baseboard, it would be in the borderline condensing return temps most of the time, at least in mid northeast, so you only buy a couple of AFUE points and I could not justify the boiler he was looking at, happened to be a viessmann, nice boiler but a major pocketbook ouch,
in fact i put in pri/sec/injection with a tekmar 361 and it allowed me to use a slant-fin sx-150, really inexpensive - which allowed him to save his money for the future when the "revolution" (sorry the pun keeps coming up) is over and the dust settles down and all the science is squared away If i didnt have to redo the boiler room piping anyway, then your revolution or the WM GV gold would have been the eminently "correct" choice at least with the science I have up to this point -
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ah floyd, i just love it when you \"git yer irish up\"
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Amen Floyd !
It's not that hard to understand. I sell 'em that way all the time. Just gotta have faith and confidence.
"Follow the light"
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Kal,
We got's a problem here.....
These here daarn new fangled contraptions are so new that the numbers just aren't available yet.
I can tell you that from the observations that I have made so far that there will be sme surprising numbers ot there soon.
I think that even with basebaord radiantion we will find that very long run cycles, or as some have suggested, constant circ., and no setback, that we will be able to heat very passively and efficiently with very low temps.
This will take a bit of different thinking....
what I mean by that is that it will actually PAY to oversize boilrs by a bit. Let me explain......
My house will heat fine wth a 100K 80% boiler, I know, it is still in the basement hkup but valved off of the system. At -20 it ran almost constant.....
Now with a 155K modulating boiler, I know that I am over sized, does it matter??? NO. The boiler will modulate to meet the needs of the house.
Now, with the boiler being a bit oversized the boiler never really needs to run at high fire......that's good... because the eff. of the boiler is better at a lower fire......so....bigger IS better in this situation... I have the extra horsepower to heat that DHW up rapidly if it needs it and the power to ctach the house up, if it needs it.
But, MOST of the time the boiler is purring along, running in it's most effectve and eff. range of say 30-60K.
Give me another month.... I wil try to compile numbers from my house... they will by no means be a totally pefect reading, as I have done a ton of playing with things this winter, but they should give at least some indication of the savings that a modulating boiler can give. My system is CI baseboard and CI rads. and I know too that I have had it much more comfortable than it has ever been. Also the reduction in water temps has balanced the temps. upstairs and down considerably. My system also is a monoflo, with no zones.
No hard numbers yet, but i'm gaining knowledge, and I know that many more changes and challenges are on the horizon....
Hang on and enjoy the ride!!!!
Floyd0 -
Kal?
Let me understand this now and see if I'm thinking correctly from what you said "he was looking at a Viessmann" He meaning the customer? but then you talked him out of it cause it was exspensive? dude what are you thinking????? That is an amazing boiler! I've got them running on systems with a combo of hydro air and radiant, water out the drain all the time , super quiet and the controlls are built in not added on like doing it with a Tekmar. I'm not saying your argument has no merit but think about what your saying. "No sir you don't need a Mercedes here's a Chevy" Condensing or not isn't the point if the customer wants it than go for it!! Does anybody really need a Bassboat? a Harley ? A big Mitsubishi T.V.? or how about granite counter tops, or 60k worth of Furniture grade cabinets,trips to Disney World? a Rolex?. It's not about the steak it's about the sizzle. In this case though it's not just a pitch it really is good steak!
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didn't talk him out of if, the sticker shock did that
i so wanted to put in a viessmann i could taste it - but my customer was smart, he knew that, with the pri/sec/361 mix/zoned manifold he was getting, 5 points or so difference in boiler efficiency could not justify the 30 year cycle price - he is from the old school that believes that a heating system should last 30years, well the initial and repair cost over 30years of the viessmann over the slant-fin is at least 5 to 1 just compare price a replacement control board for the viessmann to a Honeywell S8610 universal ignition module hello?
like I said to someone else If we werent re-doing the boiler room piping from scratch and adding zones, then a boiler with built-in mixing and reset would have made more sense but with a pri/sec/injection manifold on the wall the boiler is just a heat source and was addressed as such
not that this can all change very soon gas, in NYC this winter was up 73% - if that trend continues we will be looking for another just a heat source, real soon, cha-ching ;-)
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i think you are onto somthing with this
that why i started this thread - hoping that the baseboard and radiator makers like slant-fin and myson will take notice and dump some science on us tekmar would have to re-program the 361 to do a quick heat-up and then maintain curve actually the 361 couldnt handle it, but a whole house control like their 371 or the new one coming out in the fall could look at each RoomTempratureUnit and provide a modulate output per zone
of course it would be nice if we had a variable-speed pump per zone for that the new Grundfos magna pumps do just that but they refuse to sell them here something about too much trouble getting UL listed I get a different story every time I ask they are probably just not tooled up to make it in the usa like the 15-42 line
this may all be moot, if the manufactures see, that radiant is where most of the money is, then, they are not going to commit research to improving the baseboard world, though I cant see how there is no money in it, most of the baseboard systems installed in the sixties and seventies, are in need of new boilers and piping, and a radiant retrofit in an occupied hose is pretty much out of the question
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Customer's pocket
I couldn't agree with you more, Joel. I figured out quite a while ago it's not myu job to decide how the customer spends their money. My job is to give them choices and stand back.
Ever go to a restaurant? Order a great steak? Then have the waiter tell you it's way overpriced. Have the cube steak instead.0 -
you dont have to have a condensing boiler
to run baseboards at low temp - it just would be more efficient when the return temps are low, you could suck the heat out of the flue gases with the low temp return water,
with an oil burner today you can make a boiler loop, and zoned system loop, and a third injection loop, that takes water from the boilers pot and puts into the system pot as needed you would use a tekmar 361 control for that the boiler would stay nice and hot and not short cycle, and youd save a bundle, coupled that with the already lower price of oil per btu, you could save a fortune
oil burners have very corrosive flue gasses to extract heat from it, you need a stainless steel auxiliary flue heat exchanger, with a good chimney and treated drain to recover this heat its been done - probably not cost effective
to run baseboards at low temp - it just would be more efficient when the return temps are low, you could suck the heat out of the flue gases with the low temp return water,
with an oil burner today you can make a boiler loop, and zoned system loop, and a third injection loop, that takes water from the boilers pot and puts into the systems pot so to speak, as needed you coould use a tekmar 361 control for that the boiler would stay nice and hot and not short cycle, and youd save a bundle, coupled that with the already lower price of oil per btu, you could save a fortune
oil burners have very corrosive flue gasses to extract heat from it, you need a stainless steel auxiliary flue heat exchanger, with a good chimney and treated drain to recover this heat its been done - probably not cost effective
0 -
And some change
I was talking about heat load calcs in general. It always pays to no what is behind the standards. I often do a full blown calc determining U'values for every component and my own estimation of what the infiltratin rate is. Then I plug in my delta tee I want to work with.
I usually do not design depending on internal gains, unless looking at the size of a baseload boiler for a staged boiler setup. However, I was trying to demonstate how much of an impact they have on water temps. That baseboard system designed at 180F supply, 160 return is very likely going to operate at much lower temps than this because of internal gains. This makes a condensing boiler more practical.
Many folks here have gone back to look at systems on design days with boilers sized properly and have found them only running at about 60% capacity. Reality generally does not follow the numbers, particularly if they are based on standards and not tailored to each application.
Another thing I missed when looking at design conditions is wind loads. Is the wind always moving at 20 mph when the temp is 0F, and the sun is not out and no one has been at home? Pretty rare. We need to design for it, but when looking at equipment choices, we need to look at typical conditions too. These typical conditions are what causes the majority of fuel usage and need for comfort. This is the design point in which we need to design for maximum efficiency.
BP0 -
A real example of low water baseboard
I have copper baseboards piped on one monoflo zone with continuous circulation fired by a 1950ish Hoffman cast iron boiler with a modern Riello burner and outdoor reset. It maxes out at 145° on the coldest winter days when it is twenty below and the water temps would be lower if it were heating continuously rather than less than half the day. This is a mid 70's backsplit house that isn't tight and has soon to be replaced aluminium single pain crap for windows. A condensing modulating boiler would be perfect for this application. And no, the house is not covered in baseboard. The temperature of the house is set at 68° by day and 64° overnight, but the effective indoor temperature is slightly higher (69-70°) throughout the house based on spot readings done around the house.
Any well insulated home could easily take advantage of a condensing boiler with "lowly" baseboards. If I had my druthers and the budget, I'd rather have panel rads with TRVs, but the baseboard's looks don't bother me or stand out and they certainly look and feel better than floor grates blowing hot air.0 -
taco now makes the vari-speed pump perfect for this
now all we got to do is figure out, the right control for it, probably need tekmar to program a low-temp baseboard controller with the right curve specifically for this
like a RoomTempreatureUnit with a variable dc voltage output for the vv version
see http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=14669&mc=25#Message898230 -
Emailed them...
a month ago about this....
the official responese was.....
We are working on it.0 -
they had better hurry up
cause the grundfoss people just need to change theirs to 110v/60hz and they are ready to go -0 -
noel: i think you \"slant-fin\"ers sell more
finn tube convectors than anybody - i dont remember ever installing someone else's, so you have to have a lot more history and science on this than you'er letting on
we would like to see the btu tables that you put on the web go down to 70 degree water in 65 degree air - hey - a guy can dream!, no?0 -
I'll work on just that, Kal
> finn tube convectors than anybody - i dont
> remember ever installing someone else's, so you
> have to have a lot more history and science on
> this than you'er letting on
>
> we would like to
> see the btu tables that you put on the web go
> down to 70 degree water in 65 degree air - hey -
> a guy can dream!, no?
0 -
I'll work on just that, Kal
Sounds like a good idea.
Noel0 -
the cat's out of the bag now
i dont think manufactures without condensing solutions wanted this idea out yet - lucky for slant-fin, this new efficiency model, gives baseboard a lot more life, so they, at least, sell more of that, while their own condensing solution comes out
but i do agree, with Gaston from Burnham - that the end of today (that is until gas prices double again), the total numbers between fully condensing and mixed and reset cast iron, is still slightly in favor of cast iron
if weil-mclain didnt want so sell small cast iron anymore - i think this conversation would be over, cause they could drop the ULTRAs price anytime to their CV-gold level, and that, as they say, would be that
though there still are a few hard core hold outs that dont want to hear of aluminum -
ps - for the record - this "low temp baseboard" stuff was all Floyds idea anyway - i just ran with it cause i wanted some hard science - so dont blame me for the fallout (man, I wish I had b !)
0 -
Changes in Output in LOOP with Changing Output Curve
Very sincere question for those who have added constant circulation with low temps through fin baseboard...
You've designed your first space in the loop to work with say 190° water, right? The next space is designed to work with say 180° water and you have to add proportionally more b/b, right? And so on down the loop. (Maybe I'm being optimistic about how much effort goes into sizing b/b systems since I frequently just see them looping the outside walls.)
You generally start your loop in common space and try to end it in bedrooms under the logic that "most prefer a cooler sleeping space" right?
------------------------------------------------
Now you add constant circulation and full reset of some sort. The water temp at the beginning of the loop is MUCH lower. The output characteristics of fin b/b show that output is not linear with changing temp and output starts dropping more rapidly the lower the temp.
Does this make the units down the loop have even more of an output drop than your design? OR, does the now lower temperature drop (it's putting out less heat so delta-t should decrease) across a given b/b compensate for this adequately?
If the decreased delta-t is "taking care of things for you" as proposed above, then I believe you would have a BIG problem if you also varied the rate of flow through the loop. Reduce the flow rate and you'll increase the delta-t across a given b/b and that "lucky" balance will be gone.0
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