Policy question

Wayco Wayne_2

I work up a bid for a project. I design and draw what I imagine will be the piping. Count the fittings and parts and equipment and put them all on a spreadsheet. You make your best guess at how much time the project will take and add that into the stew. You can never think of everything so on top of the profit markup you put a little fittings and parts missed mark up. Its very time consuming and tedious but you finally come up with the final price. You propose it to the customer and they say they want a breakdown of prices of materials and labor. What costs how much and this and that. My feeling is I'm not sure any of that is your business. I gave you a price and a job description. Why do you need more? But am I wrong to feel that way? How do you guys feel about this? What do you do?

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=255&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Weezbo

nobody Wants to pay for administrative work.

i am a bit more fortunate people hunt me down and find out if i have time. when i was younger however it was a B !
maybe its a pay your dues kinda deal. i'm still at it most of the rest of em are Gone:)

David_5

Don't break it down.

If you show the individual costs then some people will argue about prices. Gee you have thermostat wire at .20/ foot, I can buy it at Home Depot for .10. Gee that circulator is 75$.00 I can get it at home depot for $45.00.
When I buy a car I don't ask for a breakdown in price. Even computers are not priced like that.

David

paul lessard_3

not wrong

but fair ,don't fall for it those people are often not worth it,the job descriptions should be complete and full of things that you know the other guy won't do.
you said it " I run into this now and again" most good customers don't do these kinds of things
It turns me off most of the time...maybe i'm wrong too?
on a small job I'll discount the parts and say I'm worth every penny!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Earthfire

No Breakdown

They want to use your breakdown to work the cut the price angle or to get your parts used breakdown. We give them a project cost. Any furthur documentation, as in labour costs, sub costs, outside vendor and material costs can be supplied at an additional cost equal to 2 days cost of top tech plus standard profit and overhead mark ups.Usally cut that problem of at the knee. A legitimate budget adjustment question is handled by stating we can remove this or that component which will affect cost and final comfort insuch a manner.

Andy Morgan_2

You are right

it isn't any of their business. We don't give parts breakdowns, design drawings or anything like that on a quote. From what I have found, if they are asking for material costs, it's because they want to shop the list at HD so that you can't make money on material. Also, there is no way of knowing every fitting, wire nut, etc that is going to be used on the job anyway. Sorry, no one is that good! All you can do is give a fair and honest quote on the job, sell your self as being fair and honest, and 99% of the time you will get the job no matter what the price is.




Andy Morgan

R. Morgan Mechanical, LLC

Don Walsh

Turn the tables!

There was a particularly nasty customer that asked for a quote on a job a while back. He informed me within two minutes of my arriving that I would be required to itemize every item of material with the wholesalers price for each item, wanted to know what level of discount I would receive from suppliers for prompt payment, and the total number of hours that I would be on the job. He also said that there would be no discussion or payment for extras if required, and told me that he would pay in 90 days period! Started me off on the right foot!
I decided right then that this clown was not one of my type of customers, and never would be either. I told him that all of his requested information would be provided, but he had to first provide me with his last three year income tax filing reports, and a list of current assets and liabilities. He said that information was none of my business, but I assured him that because of the level, quality, and cost of my work; I had to be sure that he could afford my services BEFORE I would even work up a quote for him. He was still yelling insults at me, as I drove out of sight laughing all the way.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

alternety

Unpopular view

This will be real unpopular with the other responders.

Reasons why it is the customers business:

It is their money and their home. They will live with your implementation for a long time.

If you have a knowledgable customer they want to know what components are being supplied and where the major costs are in the design and see if if they can be rebalanced. They also need to be able to compare bids. It is really annoying to get a bid that says here it is, assume I know what I am talking about, never be able to compare bids on design vs price with other contractors, just pick me with no basis and live with whatever I decide to give you. Or pick the low bid!

This is a skilled trade, but your customers are not all idiots nor are they necessarily incapable of understanding a system which, while it is complicated, is simply not rocket science. Many of your potential customers deal daily with issues and technologies orders of magnitude more complicated and convoluted then what you do. Some of you have valuable skills and training. This neither assures nor negates the intellegence and architectural (system, not building design)flexibility applied to designs. My experience has been that many HVAC "professionals" depend entirely on the manufacture's design capabilities. This also tends to yield solutions that are not necessairly optimal since the components are drawn from a single product line. That is not how I develop the complex architectures of massive information systems. I pick and choose from multiple vendors to optimize the customer benefit. Over the last 30+ years I have issued and responded to countless RFPs (Request for Proposal - e.g., bid). They have had ranges to many millions of dollars and make a residential heating system look like something Mr. Rodgers would have taught his audience. Some times the client may have used it for information gathering only to go and do it themselves. If my bid did not show clear design superiority, establish my credentials as a desired contractor, and show a reasonable cost/profit, they were fully justified in doing so. That is called - business. The attitudes expressed here about informing customers is appalling and insulting.

I also do not agree with the basis of this industries pricing. Taking a 100% markup (or whatever) on parts and materials is not, in my opinion, justified. You have been given a near monopoly in some equipment and are milking it for all it is worth.

You are entitled to make a living. Just like your customers. Charge a reasonable labor rate. Take a markup on materials/equipment that covers cost of goods, cost of money, processing, and a reasonable profit margin comparable to other resales. Include the internet suppliers and big box stores in determining what reasonable is. This will require business acumen and an understanding of your actual costs, return on investment, and necessary profit margins.

How is the customer to know if you are a one of those contractors that will build a system that makes the most graphic horror movies look like they were made by Disney. Are you the contractor that requires a new contractor to come in after the lawsuit to try and make it work. You are taking a very arrogant view of the people that provide support to you and your family.

Unknown

We do things two ways. Either they commit to buying parts from us based on our firm quoted cost (and lower design fees), or we give them a "design only" quote with estimated part cost, and provide full parts lists and pricing when the design is complete. Then if they go elsewhere for parts, we're still covered for our time, they still have a top quality design, and everyone is reasonably happy. We usually get at least a good portion of the part sales from those jobs too, so I'd say overall it seems to be kind of a wash.

_______________________________
Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Ted_9

breakdown

The most that I'll do is Equipment, parts, labor and tax brake down.

When I go and get gas I may shop around a bit but I wont ask the gas station manager his cost per gallon of gas etc.

I dont know the law on that issue, but the only one that can inquire on parts and equipment cost might be the IRS and at that point your being audited.

The above statements are the opinions of Ted.

Steve Whitbeck

dand699 -- That is why there are references to prove the quality of workmanship.
I always list in detail what my job will entail.
I list major parts.
BUT I WILL NOT give a breakdown of each part or give away how a come up with my final job cost.
My price is a fair cost for what they want done.
NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS.
With my job proposal the buyer can compare my price and job with any other quote.

paul lessard_3

AFUE



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Weezbo

dan ...

if no body is overly happy ...its probably a fair deal. if some one is laughing up thier sleeve then some one is getting . the workmen in this industry have literally thousands of products to choose from .what are we supposed to do in your humble opinion ? present every concievable product on the market for every proposal just in case some one thinks brand x is the only game in town? hey selling some one a pos isnt in our agenda.a? i suggest no matter what we are called to do in this life we still have to live with ourselves and if the older guys dont set a good example what hope is there for the ones comming up?

alternety

Tinkerer

References do not allow comparison. Likewise a reference from an unknowledgable source is not necessairly a good decision point. Multiple one are useful but do not substitute for a system design suitable for bid evaluation.

I believe your position regarding pricing is consistent with what I said. I do not suggest you share markup; merely make it a fair business proposition based on internal business analysis.

Weezbo - I have no idea what you said.

Robert O'Connor_7

alternaty response

I bid dozens of maintenence T&M jobs a year (BIG T&M JOBS) for schools, hospitals, prisons and municipal work. They DO want to know what the cost is going to be before a problem even exists. There are differing teirs depending on the per incident expenditure. For example: if an ordinary repair requires parts, and it is reasonable to assume that the individual part cost is under $100, we then are allowed to double the cost of it. But keep in mind if your called out in the middle of the night to say a housing project and the job can be done by one guy in about 40 minutes (Also a maintenence customer of mine) what do you do? One guy is not going alone, so you now either pay for two guys or NO guys, because their not going alone. (This is usually addendum to contract). Lets see 2 men @ time & 1/2 minimum 4 hours, material @ $100 bucks + mark up + profit (Q? Am I allowed to make a profit?)= $931.30. After I pay the benefits,(another $17 AN HOUR), after I pay my insurance (Last year was $41,000 NOT counting health ins.) Did I mention the performance bond which in this case was $8,000 CASH! Then we got Union assesment payment for the 2 men/women, gasoline, where and tear on the vehical, the phone service @ $150 a month, paying inventory tax on the stock were under contract to maintain, office staff (we gotta send them a RFP (request for payment), licencing fees, continuing education....... I'm sure I could think of a few more goodies to add, but ya know what? Their real! Real costs, real people, real $$$$$ before I've even made a penny (which if I'm lucky will be net 90 days) So the next time you care to wonder whats involved, think of paying for this service call (which bye the way we won the contract by 83cents, and their were 12 other guys bidding too. WE were the cheapest) All to make about $175 dollars profit. YOU CAN HAVE IT! Maybe we can switch jobs? ..Robert O'Connor/NJ

Climate Creator

Well Did you know....

Mr Dan-D Computer Wizard that, you pay more markup for a pizza than for heating parts?!? Hmmm does this sound right? If your looking to frown on markup, point your browser to the medical field websites, or insurance, or Hmm everyone else but the trades. Why can we build a million dollar house but not afford one? This is a free market, if you don't like the price, you can go for one more to your liking, Then the next guy to go out there (and there will be) can post the pics here of their wonderfull work. And in closing to your comments about this not being rocket science? You would'nt be saying that when you had no heat on X-mas morning, and also computers don't have the potential to kill, as does this equip. Don't you want us to be trained, and qualified? Our jobs carry with them an inherrent resposibilty, to make sure the world runs, we do our part and take great pride in it, and that should be enough for ANY customer who even thinks there is less to this trade than they actually know. My customers trust me and this is why. Do not assume too much, we are a caring, intelligent, and VERY proud community of tradesmen who do whatever it takes to get the job done, and this is evident from the original post, Why should he ask such a question? Because he is worried about the customers thoughts not wether or not he can "hide" his markup. My answer to that, give a fair and balanced presentation and stick to it. Offer to work with someone if they want to adjust the price, we know the options we can customize, but we NEED to stick to our policies, let them know you, and your work, sell you and not the "job" after all they wont take the lowest price if they dont like you!

A proffesional is someone who does his best work even when he doesn't want to.

CC

(Sorry for the rant, it wont change anything)

Mark Hunt

Now I have to raise my prices!


Thanks Robert!

That nailed it!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

alternety

Robert O'Connor response

And that is indeed the process of determininng what you have to charge.

I have not suggested anyone should not make a fair profit. Nor have I suggested that the process is simple. It does require the proprietor to understand their business costs and goals. I do, however,strongly believe a customer should not be asked to buy a pig-in-a-poke and not be shown a design and major components to chose a vendor and technical approach. And this was my primary point. The issue is with the expressed attitudes toward the paying customer.

jerry scharf

a price breakdown won't get you a better installer

(I really wish people would put their names down. I feel somewhat impolite every time I start one of these and don't know how to address it.)

You are saying two different things in your "unpopular" post. One is that you deserve to understand the internal business decisions of a contractor. The other is that you have had unsatisfactory work done for you and you know many other people who also have.

This is a strange juxtaposition to me. You don't find better people by understanding their business model. You do it by doing your homework! You have to check references, but you also need to be sure the person giving the reference cares and understands at the same level you do. You need to ask about callbacks. You need to look at their work and decide if it's up to snuff for you. Any learning you do about how things work can be used to better sort people. Once you've done that, then you can get a good set of bids. This was taught to me by an owner rep with 25+ years of large commercial construction experience. I still miss working with him.

The only reason you can want that information (not the equipment to be installed but the itemized cost) is to argue about it. It may be that this is somewhat incompatible with the steps in the previous paragraph. Maybe not for you.

It's not that homeowners are not respected. Some are great and some are jerks, just like contractors and anything else in life. I have seen people who want to learn welcome at Dan's place. I counldn't find the exact quote, but in one of Dan's books he talks about a person finding radiant slab leaks with a cat. The guy kept on depricating Dan every paragraph. In the end Dan says (paraphrasing) that sometimes you have to put up with being called dumb to get the knowledge. It's a good trade.

That's part of the essence of this site, and why so many people hang around it. We're Dan's guests, and we should be here with his ways. If I got pissed off every time I got called stupid, no one could tell because it would be continuous. I am neither talented nor wise, but I am like that cat finding the warm spot. When there's knowledge to be had, you can't chase me away.

peace,
jerry

Dave Yates (PAH)

$225,000.00 bid for radiant

That was our price. The GC & HO asked for a copy of the 100 or so pages of technical notes, material lists and design criteria I had with me at the meeting.

No problem, just sign my contract and I'll gladly share copies or pay me a fee for the time and work I've put into this project.

They signed the contract & the job peformed flawlessly when we were finished. Still does.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

[Deleted User]

Its interesting

how many want to know EXACTLY ho wmany 90° ells, feet of pipe etc, what componenets, controls etc... potential customers can get a bid for parts, materila, labour and taxes.

You want the breakdown so you can go to the BIGBOX and get your materials, I am fine with that AFTER I get the job...please sign the waiver that says I am not covering anything but what I supply.

YOU are responsible to ensure materials are up to code. I will install what you supply. Labour and taxes do not change. fee for minimal use of acetelyne etc.. if used will be added.

If what you provide fails inspection..extra cost to remove and replace.(had THAT a couple of times too. Wind up costing more than the original quote, new materials and 2xlab)

Also acknowledge that there may be additional materials required unforseen that you may need to run and get, they are not coming off my truck.

If your system fails in the dead of winter, and its not a component I supplied or recommended, there is NO warranty labour or otherwise..have check at the door when I arrive. If it is warranty, I will return it.

Lastly if you provide components like pumps, valves, sesnor etc that I did not specify and have DIFFERENT operating characteristics..I will NOT guarrantee that the system will work exactly as promised. But I will install them if you wish ..."cuz they're cheaper.."
Mike

Wayco Wayne_2

Thanks

for all of the feedback guys. I think I understand both sides of the issue now. These homeowners are really nice folks who have been through an ordeal, with a contractor who sold them a radiant floor sytem and then botched it but good. They are nervous about giving their money and trust to someone new and are grasping for a way to feel some control. I sent them an E-mail this morning drawing the line. I offered referals and more detailed job description, so they could get bids for matching work, but I feel protective of my pricing process. If I'm too high let the process put me in my place, by another contractor getting the job. I know the cost of pricing too low is a ticket out of business and I hope not to make that mistake too often. I just had a job where things I had not accounted for jumped out like a jack in the box once I got into the job. It took longer than I expected and that means I made less. If you can see those things ahead of time you have a gift I wish I had. If the customer wants to let me work at time and materials then how do I deal with warranty visits? Do I get to charge for call backs and nuisance trips? I hope they understand that what they are asking is a little over the line, at last for me.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

[Deleted User]

WW

Like I said above. Only cover what YOU provide. Write out what will be and what will not if they provide materials.

And dont forget the combustion check for CO!!

(A plug for Mark's most noble cause!)
Mike

heatboy

I'm not sure I understand.

Alternety,

My clients hire us because of what we can do for them. I'm not sure how breaking down prices, which I have yet to do, would make me appear more or less professional.

It would seem, that even asking for something like that doesn't bode well for a good relationship between you and your contractor. Maybe that isn't important to you, but I have built my business on the relationships I have formed with my clients, suppliers and industry friends.

hb

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

alternety

Waco Wayne and error in my original post

Waco Wayne I believe you got my point. That is exactly what I believe you should do.

In my original post there are two things that I did not state properly. When I said:

If you have a knowledgable customer they want to know what components are being supplied and where the major costs are in the design and see if if they can be rebalanced. They also need to be able to compare bids. It is really annoying to get a bid that says here it is, assume I know what I am talking about, never be able to compare bids on design vs price with other contractors, just pick me with no basis and live with whatever I decide to give you. Or pick the low bid!

I should have also added major before components. In this context it makes no sense for a bid to show minor components. It takes too much time for the bidder and does not provide useful information. I am just talking major parts. The biggest part of the information is the system design. How you think it is going to work, control strategy, etc.

The second issue is that I just should not have put in the comment about markup. I do not have a broad base of information to support those numbers. It distracted a lot of people from the issue and it was interpreted as meaning you should share markup or overall margins with customers or not make money. That IS none of the customers business and I did not mean to suggest markup or margins should be shared. I actually don't think I did but I obviously failed to communicate clearly.

The key, again, is that a potential customer be given sufficient information to properly eveluate your bid and compare with others. They have to know if the results are comparable to evaluate price. I have always, when not constrained by external business rules, tried to evaluate bids based on what the bidder is doing and quality of the solution rather than the lowest price. If, however, the preferred bidder is using equipment where I have other preferences or questions I will discuss alternatives before selection. Costing major components helps in that evaluation to compare proposals and if I know the costs of alternates which may more closely match my requirements. For heating this would be things like the boiler, indirect tank, pumps, controls, maybe manifolds.

In my particular case, my specs specified a Munchkin boiler, indirect DHW and a buffer tank function to moderate short cycling. That is not what got proposed on all of the bids and without information I was not able to directly compare bids. It was not proposed because "that is not the way we do it".

I am probably not a typical customer. The house is superinsulated and in the process of building I have found a fair number of things that were not being done to what research has said are best practices, or in some cases even reasonable. An let me say that I believe my builder is very good. I went through an extensive selection process to pick him. And I tend to accept subs he recommends from his experience (i.e. ,he is my primary reference). But there are things that just simply are not done by some builders and trades because they have learned to do it another way. Every so often we get a "well I never had a problem doing it that way". And in some cases if there was a problem it would not be known. An exammple is leaving gaps in slab insulation so concrete flows down to the dirt, or lots of insulation in the floor but then pouring to the wall without insulation. Burying hose clamps under a slab without using all-stainless hardware. This has nothing to do with the heating system. I am merely explaining that I am closely involved with the building process and expect to be a part of all of the designs and processes. It is my money.

Some customers need a higher level of information and involvement. Some could care less about the heating system and would not know what to do with information if they had it. Part of your marketing process needs to include determining what "this" customer's needs are and meeting them.

I want to be informed. That is why I am here. I have learned valuable things from sites like this. Participating or reading internet sites and doing research are not substitutes for years of training and experience. But I do have an advantage in that I am only doing this once for a very specific system. So I can focus on applicable details. But I will have to live with the solution for the rest of my life and it will consume a major part of my available resources.

Uni R

Quoting

There should be a happy middle ground to this.


I feel that a quote should include a fairly extensive breakdown of materials, but that a homeowner is buying the system and therefore should have no expectations of getting line item prices, just an installed "system" price, or several options and the price of each.


The installer needs to assemble this list to accurately price the project, so it is only fair that the customer sees what items went into the quote so that they can have some confidence that the contractor knows how to correctly quote a job in the best interests of both parties. If the vendor won't provide a bill of materials to quote a job, the customer has no idea what they are being offered and the vendor can't really differientate themselves from the hacks and the fly-by-nighters.


References should never be the sole consideration. In large urban areas, references mean much less than in small communities, because it is so much harder to find a balanced sample. In addition, two contractors may have excellent reputations but be quoting two very different levels of installs at the same price. A breakdown of items will help the customer choose between the two.


From the perspective of the customer, if they were buying a car, they would expect to know in detail all of the standard features that come at that price. In addition, the dealer can offer options and show the prices for them. If they want the price of parts, they should go to the parts department. You are selling systems, not parts.

Robert O'Connor_7

re-response to alternety

The example I've posted is an extreme situation and involved. The contracts expressed these figures that may, over the life of that contract (usually a year) be worth millions of dollars. In a residential aplication you need only to find expert help. I would not give a breakdown or itemized material pricing unless specifically asked to do so up front(and weather you know it or not, are gonna pay for this itemization) Even then, your not getting that info till after you sign, besides, what am I gonna do? Call the distributor to give me an itemized list of material and then NOT get the job because you think my labor rate is a little steep for your taste. That distributor will get real tired of that, and me after the first dozen jobs I don't get. Use your head, If you got a job were a significant amount, or one particular item Is the big ticket item, research it yourself, then decide on a contractor based on his/her experience and the ability to respond to you when things aren't going so well. I find you will get what you paid for. Many times the cheaper price is not done by the company who follows up on your underperforming dodad. Keep that in mind, you can save by hiring an installer only, and by that I mean sombody that doesn't provide the emergency on call type service you may need. It's a crap shoot. Two things I try to emphasize to all homeowners, first is to not nessesarly take the high or the low price, choose the company by their track record and who you belive is going to provide the best service for the $$, and second (the most important) hire wisely.... Robert O'Connor/nj

John Starcher_7

You are obviously....

...a well informed and intelligent person. That being said, it is unlikely that you and I would do business if you were to insist on my providing a breakdown with my quotation to you.

As Ellen Rohr said in her book, in our trade, our "widget" is our time. Whether the time is spent desigining a system, engineering a properly sized and piped replacement boiler or furnace, or fixing your shower faucet, we are selling our time. For me to spend the time "breaking down" my costs to you is, in my humble opinion, a waste of my time and your money.

When I buy a new vehicle, I compare brands, look at mileage estimates, consider comfort options, colors, radio options, practical considerations, etc. I make my final decision based on a combination of these factors. I don't ask the dealer for a breakdown of material and labor costs involved in building the vehicle, and he wouldn't be able to give it to me if I did.

If I provide a proposal to you for a heating system, I will specify very clearly what is (and is not) included in my price. I will specify the brand of equipment (but not the model number, as it took my investment of time to properly determine what size unit was needed). I will provide you with manufacturer's literature, and will sit down with you face-to-face and discuss the advantages of the particular piece of equipment that I am proposing, and how I feel that it best suits ALL of your needs. I will explain to you how I calculated the heat loss of your home, and how I intend to design the distribution system (hot water or air). I will give you options to reduce the installation cost, if you are on a tight budget. If you have never used my company before, I will gladly provide you with references, and you can feel free to contact them and ask if they were anything less than satified with the services I provided them.

For you to demand a parts and labor breakdown is to reduce me (again, in my humble opinion) to the level of a commodity, of which I am not! I fail to see how this breakdown will help you in any way, as my labor cost per unit of time may not be the same as my competitor's. Perhaps I invest annually a higher dollar amount in training for myself and my employees than my competitor. Maybe my trucks are better stocked for those after hours emergencies. Maybe my wharehouse has a more complete inventory of repair parts than his. Maybe I pay my employees a wage that they can actually live on, along with full benefits, while my competitor's employees are barely making ends meet, and with no hospitalization insurance. All of these are going to add up to the fact that I charge more for my labor than my competitor. Does that make me more qualified to install your boiler? Maybe and maybe not. My competitor may be ten times more knowlegeable than me, and is just a lousy guy to work for!! Chances are, though, that my employees are better equipped, better trained, and have a better attitude, which all translates to a well thought out and professional installation in your basement. Also, by charging the proper price to make a fair profit, I am assured to be around to stand behind the work I did for you. Oh, did I mention that you can call my company at 3:00 AM and someone is on-call to respond to your emergency?

You stated that "that a potential customer be given sufficient information to properly eveluate your bid and compare with others." I will give you that information as I state above. I don't feel, though, that a parts and labor breakdown is one of those keys!!

I obviously disagree with your opinion on the need or usefulness of a breakdown, but I respect your right to require this from any bidder. If you insist on holding fast to this requirement, then you and I can certainly enjoy a beverage together....we just won't have a business relationship!!!!

You are making the effort, by being here at the Wall, to educate yourself in what is best for your heating project, and I commend you for doing so. The people here are some of the best in the industry. I understand that you will be the one to live with the results of the installation provided to you, and you should by all means make sure that you are getting the best possible system that you can afford. Feel free to ask any questions you can think of regarding equipment performance, efficiency, piping practices, control strategies, and so on. We will help you any way we can to make an informed decision.

Good luck,

Starch

Weezbo

Have to say many good thoughts have rolled by....

when the home owner supplies materials...well ,sorry... if it is a POS i let them know........ when i give them a proposal first i go get a lay of the land... the 8section they want installed is up the stairs across the hardwood cherry floors down the stairs through the master bath .....Guess what? when they call and its ...well off the highway across the road up the hills to the power line right of way up that hill to the snow machine trail across the field to the moose trail..... I dont care how much parking space there is! to me that isnt someone meeting me half way. when the customer asks about this or that i say this is standard in the trade or this is the best quality available at this time. when i say well what i am going to place here is a 4 way mixed water injection system with such and such control a water maker, a seperately controlled temp and and and it is designed to let them know what to expect and that is the time i address thier concerns .... so they were thinking they were paying for a fixed mix off a three way and got a multi temp thoroughly controlled zoned system ..some one will let them know.... and that is a fact Jack! my first answer to the lad who started this post is the truth as i see it. once people know the quality is there... as long as you are available... they will respect what you say... however watch out .do what you say you are going to do that way your Word means something. all this other picky picky snivel well how many feet of this howmany t's how many feet of strapping tape inches of uni strut lag bolts ....frick it! you'll end up designing it and somebody else will install and they will be calling YOU back to fix the POS.....as if!>>>.... if you are doing service work you do not have the time to re write the universe at this momment...if you are doing new construction and Your Word isnt worth something to them...how can you work with them? that is nt arrogance thats a fact . and if you read the rest of the posts here you will see that clearly we wont stay in business by handing the owner or general aPOS and telling him or her every component in the thing. sure you should let them understand what they are getting and how simple it is to operate and maintain...and its ease of trouble shooting and what not to break out thier tools and Intervene at on a whim. and some sort of general maint schedule and someone close by to call for a repair of thier equipment and that coupled with a return visit to see how things are going with them in general seems to work for me......Should you get a Really Large job to You do your home work...new products same thing.... something you never heard of then get accurate info . as to the well i want this and that, take your time to at least clarify why or why not.The computer whizz had a few points too. he had a check list of certain products and what he wanted....while i wont say the products are the only game in town i would say it was at least doable. there is a reason to what he had in mind..prove to him the benifits of a better system or a deficentcy in the choise of equipment he'd probably listen. no one has to die over it in other words. ...the disscussion meanderd a bit from should you itemize ever single last piece to some very clear picture of the whys and where fores of lots of the minor technicalities involved in the process.many poingant replies based on experience came across. keep these words and views .sort out a set of standards for yourself that you feel or realize need to be part of your business. and dont be afraid to ask .

lchmb

2 cent's here...

I was asked by a family member to do a boiler install..I designed a system based on heat loss which I paid for to have done by a supply company...(if i had purchased the part's from them the heat loss was free) I then gave him a very cheap price for myself and another friend to do the install..Do to the fact he was family I was going to do it on the weekend at half the normal hourly rate....Upon completion of the estimate...I gave him a set price for the job and told him to let me know...He then asked for a labor and part's break down and wanted to see the heat loss out of curiosity..I showed it to him, he went to a plumber who used my part's listing and heat loss with diagram and then did the job for $500 less...Upon completion the boiler would not function..want to guess who he called....:) So again why would I show someone how I came up with a price and why?? it was my sweat and time...sorry here's the best price I can give and I will do a professional job...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Not from hydronic jobs but...

...when I bid a full job I do give the customer a breakdown of estimated material and labor.

HOWEVER, the estimated material will very often include some material preparation costs, shipping costs, stocking costs, acquisition costs, etc. [Aside to those comparing estimates--these are REAL costs--but you never really know how/where they have been included...]

When the customer supplies materials, some of the above STILL apply however and the labor charge will usually increase.

Mike Wallace

breakdown of cost

It is none of their business someone wrote?????? And you wonder why some people want to do anything themselves???? Whatever happened to the customer is always right? I always provide a breakdown of the materials; once the customer knows that I will provide service after the sale and provide high quality components, they Always buy.

Boiler Guy

No problem

Immediately upon receipt of payment (actual cash in our bank) for my time and effort to prepare your estimate I shall provide you with a copy of my breakdown. Should we be the successful contractor for your project the cost of the estimate shall be immediately become part of the deposit required to initiate the contract. Should we not be the chosen contractor please accept our heartfelt thanks for permitting us the privlege of supplying you with a comprehensive bill of materials for your shopping pleasure. Your prompt payment has been greatly appreciated.

Wayco Wayne_2

Final word

I informed the customer yesterday via E-mail,that we do not provide breakdowns of materials and labor costs but we could provide references and any clarifications needed for them to compare prices with other contractors. Their response was, "Oh, OK, can we have some references?" Apparently not a big deal or a deal breaker. I'm such a sensitive lout. Perhaps they were just testing the water to see how much information I was willing to share. It's been an interesting subject to clarify the boundrys of. Thank you all for your input and thoughts on the subject. WW

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"