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Problem With Local Plumbers & New Technology
Ufdah
Member Posts: 5
I'm building a new house this summer and I'm looking at either a Munchkin or a NTI Trinity for radiant heat and water. I live in a small town of about 5,000 in Alaska and all of the local plumbers have the "Old School" mentality. I've got quotes from three different guys and all of them want to put in a Weil-McLain CGS5 Boiler. I'm aware that the 'old iron' has proven itself but I'm on the same lines as many of you and think that with increasing energy costs and size limitations a condensing modulating boiler is the ticket. How do you sugguest I talk to them about installing this 'new technology'? Should I pick out a system and have them learn how to install it, or would it be better to just to go with the old faithful? I'm just worried about not getting a proper install because they aren't farmiliar with the new systems. Thanks.
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Comments
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choice
the real short and sweet question is what can you get serviced in january if it breaks down? even the best must be serviced if you can't get it installed how are you going to get service?0 -
Fear of the Unfamiliar
We all have it to some degree and at some times.
In this situation, YOU hold the real power. After all, YOU pay the bill and it will be YOUR loss if the technology proves to have an inherent vice.
While it is often appreciated when people YOU hire and YOU pay offer their sage advice, at some point risks must be taken and YOU have to deterimine if you think their advice is coming from a higher and better knowledge, fear, or just a plain reluctance to change.
Alaska is a huge state with a lot of climactic variability. I don't know the remoteness of your location nor the real danger should you be without heat for a few days. Sophisticated equipment tends to have much more sophisticated problems than simple equipment. The simple stuff can often be "rigged" to work in an emergency.
If you want to use the new technology you either have to find someone willing to install it or learn to do so yourself BUT with professional review for safety! I don't mean to offend anyone but in the former case I would try to find a way to determine if the installer is quite literate and able to follow written instructions. Exploded diagrams may be wonderful for a faucet but are not so useful when setting up a condensing and/or modulating boiler.
If you find someone willing I would sincerely write to boiler manufacturers and download any available service/installation materials. Ask the mfgrs for their sincere recommendations--not only on the suitability of a reluctant plumber to install--but for service and parts. Most particularly ask about availability of parts in your area. I would HIGHLY consider ordering replacement for those unusual parts most likely to fail or requiring regular maintenance. Also ask the manufacturer if special training and/or equipment is required/recommended for installation. If recommended it's going to be YOUR judgment call if such training has not been completed or such equipment is not available. If such is a requirement ENSURE that it will be met!
Don't try to tell the plumber his job but there is a fairly good chance that your understanding of the device itself will be at least as good as theirs; so in this case they MUST be willing to work with you.
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There are at least...
two guys from Alaska who regularly post here, Steve & Rocky. I know Alaska is huge, and they may not be in your neighborhood, but maybe they'll see this & get in touch. Did you try "Find a Contractor"?0 -
Well I did try the Find a Pro and there's nobody within 100 miles of my zip code. I'm not afraid to do the install myself but it's the time that is working against me. I'm 5 days a week with overtime and it's just extremly difficult to get the time to do something as big as plumbing a 2,200 sq. ft house.0 -
I have no problem servicing the boiler myself it's just that I don't have the time to do all the plumbing in my house. So to make a short answer longer, I'll do the service, just need an installer.0 -
new tech
Maybe it's sticker shock.....if it don't say Weil Mclain, they don't like it. We all have our favorites, and Weil makes some excellent gas fired equipment. Take to them about the equipment they sell as an option. They could well be "afraid" of the new stuff. Maybe there isn't enough tech support or training for them up there on the products you mentioned. I"m all for new technology, but we all have our "equipment comfort zones". See if you can meet them half way.
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
just a thought but do the design for the system and have a tech follow the dotted line's..If you are able to do the upkeep and could do it if you had time then you must be able to design and blue print it...write it out...tell em what you want...give them a phone number in case and go with what YOU the CUSTOMER want's..good luck...
BTW I am not a big fan of munchkin but if it's what you want I as a supplier would put it in right for you...you paid for it..0 -
TRINITY
I install Trinity's all the time but when I first started my big concern was parts availabilty.This would also apply to the Munchkin.It's one thing to say that you are going to service it yourself but does the supplier stock those parts.
Possibly the thing to do is get the Weil McLain and have a Tekmar 356 installed with it.That way you will know that if you have a problem the parts and the service will be there for you.
Good Luck
Brian0 -
How about this idea
Install the new high tech boiler as your primary heat source and provide back up with either old faithful cast iron or, if you need it, through your A/C air handler using electric resistance. You could also install just a plain forced air furnace as your air handler. That's how I am approaching high tech in my rural area of Illinois.
Boilerpro0 -
Look into all options
Viessmann Vitodens 200 is 94.2% AFUE with a built in control. www.viessmann-us.com
Ted0 -
Another option
Since all these guys are familiar with Weil why not ask them to install the Ultra. This way its still a Weil product and the rep should be willing to walk them through their first one so that they'll be comfortable in the future.0 -
While you're correct in assuming that the boiler must be considered as a part of the system as a whole, if anything it is easier to design a system that uses a condensing modulating boiler.
Fin baseboard run off a conventional digital thermostat would [seem] to have the least to benefit from such a boiler as the return temp would be significantly higher than most other emission devices.
If they plumbers in your area are familiar with designing/installing hydronic systems using conventional boilers they shouldn't have any problem designing one to work with a condensing and/or modulating model.
In general you want to design for as low a supply temperature as possible given your space, budget and aesthetic requirements.
Proportional flow devices are nice to add if budget allow but it's really simple as you just plan as normal and add the devices.
Otherwise, particularly with a condensing and modulating boiler you STILL design the system as normal (again as low a temperature as possible) and let the built-in boiler control take care of the rough stuff...0 -
I find it strange
that you can find contractors that are experienced in radiant heating but not higher tech boilers. Like Todd said, Weil might be be the only local rep. Go Ultra or call the manufacturer you want to use and see if they have local support for the installer. A direct vent space heater/fireplace might be a good thing to have also as a backup.0 -
can you upgrade to...
a GV? Kind of gets you closer than the condencing Ulta or trinity,munch thing but is still tried and true...kpc
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
If you are not able to install it, why do you think
you'll be able to service it? Just askin'? Mad Dog
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help
If you are near Bethal Ak give my buddy Rex at Tundra heating a call at 908-543-5308
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I've heard that the Ultra wasn't designed well for cold climates, something about outside temps of 32 degrees in the controls. If any of you know anything about this I'm interrested because it's below 32 deg. for 5 months straight here. Oh, and I live in Kenai, deffinately not close to Bethel.0 -
Because the plumbers that we have got quotes from will only work on the house if they do everything. I feel fine with installing the boiler but don't have time to do ALL of the plumbing. When the thing breaks down it's not a problem to work on it. We are going to have a gas fireplace also so that will provide some backup if things go belly up.0 -
Where 'bouts are you at?
I'm in Fairbanks. Are you out by Bethel? Willow/Wasilla? Southeast? I have to agree with several posts below. Make sure parts are available first and foremost. The Weil Ultra looks like a fine product and there should be a rep around to help out. Give Proctor Sales a call in Anchorage. Dave Lindquist or Troy should be able to line you out on it. Sounds like you are fairly versed in heating. Design it yourself and have someone else put it in. Or, like one post below, go with a GV and use a Tekmar outdoor reset control to achieve nearly everything you want with more standard equipment. Call me if you would like to discuss it further. 907-456-4120.
Regards,
Rocky0 -
finding contractor
You can't just call a contractor from the yellow pages and ask/persuade him/her to install a Munchkin; they are supposed to be certified and in any case they should be experienced.
The HTProducts web page is very incomplete. If you found something 100 miles away (is that a long distance in Alaska?) call them, they may be a distributor rather than a contractor and they will give you names of contractors closer to you. That's how it worked for me...and I'm in Chicago!
If such contactors don't exist, forget about the Munchkin. Similar boilers include Peerless Pinnacle (condensing/modulating), Trinity (condensing/modulating), MZ (condensing), Baxi (modulating). Buy only if they have qualified contractors nearby who will service the unit if needed. Again, you find them not from the yellow pages but by starting from the manufacturer's web page. It can be hard work.0 -
???
> I've heard that the Ultra wasn't designed well
> for cold climates, something about outside temps
> of 32 degrees in the controls. If any of you
> know anything about this I'm interrested
Their reset curves reach the maximum water temperature at 32F outside temperature. This doesn't prevent them being used in cold climates although it is stupid design and does prevent you from getting the full benefit of outdoor reset.
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Agreed!
I would second the opinion above. Get someone who knows the product and has parts on hand. Even if it is a CI standing pilot boiler!
I'm suprised you are not using oil. Seems as tho most of the folks I have talked to use #2 fired boilers. Are you on nat gas pipelines?
In any event, if I lived in the toolies of AK, I think that I'd install TWO smaller boilers for redundancy and safety. (Been reading too many Jack London stories about the fire going out and frost creeping up the door.)0 -
I'd love to do
your install ... but I'm too far away to service too. I'm in mid Canada and have always wanted a GOOD reason to visit Alaska.0 -
wm ultra
The high altitude control in a WM150 has a 0 degree temp set for outdoor reset. This was awhile back when they first came out.
Had to replace the factory control with one from Dahl (Hajoca) here in New Mexico.
I was glad that they came out with the product and am pleased with it. Impressive propane use numbers compared to similar use in the area.0 -
Just a thought, if you say you don't feel comfortable letting a heating professional install your boiler because they're not up to the times with condensing boilers and such, then why would you ever trust yourself to do it? Hire a professional for the install, and the preventive maintainance. It ain't as easy as it looks, plain and simple...0 -
So do it your self.
I lve in North Pole Alaska,I have a fontier idea for you city slickers no body ever told us we couldnt do it thats why it s done every day! I have much to many engineer and old schooler done things they all agree couldnt possibly work I am Just that stupid
)) I have whaler friends who chase whales hundreds of miles in a row boat ) nobody ever told them they cant do it !:)) Frick it and get out there and do it!.OH and Quit sniveling. 0 -
I couldn't Agree More
With the money you'll save installing the boiler yourself you can stock one of every spare part that is likly to fail in your garage. I've been reading all kinds of posts here and everyone talks like this is brain surgery. I'm not saying it is the easiest stuff in the world but if the system is designed properly what is the big deal. Must you have a company rep looking over your shoulder while you install the first one? With email, the internet, and the telephone how hard is it to get a question answered if you can't figure it out on your own with the manual?
DIY0 -
DIY'ERS
Quote:
"I've been reading all kinds of posts here and everyone talks like this is brain surgery. I'm not saying it is the easiest stuff in the world but if the system is designed properly what is the big deal."
What is it that you do for a living? Why don't I (or the rest of us heating contractors) pick up a book on your profession and carry it out? It's one thing do be able to read a set of piping plans, and it's a complete other to follow them out. This is a little more than soldering pipes and putting on teflon tape. You're dealing with things like COMBUSTIBLE GAS piping, FLUE PIPING (which if done wrong can cause CO poisioning and KILL YOU.
Hey man I've seen orange county choppers a few times.. I think I'm going to start building custom bikes and sell them on e-bay... It looks SOOO easy from my living room chair, it can't be BRAIN SURGERY!!
IF IT WERE EASY.. EVERYONE WOULD DO IT! Oh wait.. unless they don't have the 'time'
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re
You know, it is possible that all of your customers are nitwits, but I find it difficult to believe. Sure, lots of people I know don't know what happens beyond their thermostat, but lots of people can , in fact, do your job. They choose not to or are prevented by statute. Does it mean you don't earn your money? Of course not. I have every confidence that you could, in fact, build a chopper. You would probably rather earn one. Insulting a guy who is trying to make an intelligent heating decision is not productive. I can only imagine what his heating bills are in Alaska. Saving a few percentage points in efficiency are probably worth it.
In my personal experience, the MTBF of boilers [in my life]is better than 10 years. If munchkins are worse than that, tell him so.0 -
oh yeah
that said, I wouldn't try to gas fit myself on a bet....some things most people ARE too stupid to do0 -
It can be done properly by the DIYer
You read the manuals, you follow code, and you use common sense. There is no reason a compotent person couldn't do it themselves. I'm sure you could build a chopper if you have the time and energy and invested in the proper equipment.
This brings up another thing I've noticed. I do a lot of things for myself for two reasons. First, I don't have the money to call a contractor every time I need a job done. Second, I enjoy doing things for myself. There is a sense of pride that comes with it.
My house needed re-wiring bad (old K&T). I knew it would run $10,000 to $15,000 to have a pro do it and bring everything up to code. I don't have that kind of money so I got some books and studied. I asked questions at the building deparment. I went to on-line sites like this one and other home repair type sites. When I would ask a question it was not uncommon for me to have two or three electricians answering my questions. Every one was very helpful. I rewired my house from the gorund up and it passed code.
Now I need to do some plumbing and a new heating system. I've been reading books and asking questions at the building department. Now, though, when I come to this site and others and ask questions I get treated like an idiot by plumbers. The most common response, no matter what the question is, is: "Call a contractor in your are and do what they say." When I say that is not the answer I was looking for some have gotten indignant and even down right nasty. Why is that? What is the deal with plumbers? I mean, this sight is called "HeatingHelp.Com". It is not "HeatingHelpForContractorsOnlyToTalkToOtherContractors.Com" Why are you guys so touchy about your prefession? And before you ask, I do visit sights on a regular basis dealing with my profession and I always dole out free advice, and so do other. It is nice to help someone. I don't feel my profession is threatened. There will always be a lot of people who will call professionals.
DIYer0 -
no comparison
Here's some food for thought:
IMO, there is no subtlety in electrical. I've done wiring up the 3ph 277V@1000A. In general, you follow the rules, you don't deviate one iota and it's done. When was the last time you ever heard of an electrician consulting an engineer or asking the distributor or manufacturer for advice in a residential setting? IMO, same goes for potable water, though there's more skill in making pipes not leak than wiring. I have a good friend who is an electrical PE, and he's amazed of the things I am telling him about in the heating and A/C world available at a residential level.
Boiler heating is a whole different animal. There is such a wide set of options for equipment and installation, and almost any of thise can be done right or wrong and still meet every code out there. Just some will work and others won't. Like ME says, there's no right way to do it wrong. Just read all the problems that come up here on code legal systems that don't work or don't work well. Seems like the newer installs or repairs are worse than the originals.
Residential electricians think that remotely dimming lights is hot stuff. Read the discussions of suboptimal reset curves in certain condensing boilers and think how many residential electricians are expected know this kind of stuff. There was a thead about practicing medicine, and I believe the people on this forum are closer to that than you may realize.
I think what you see as a lack of respect for the DIYer is borne from a frustration. Learners are welcome, they welcomed me just fine! But expecting every one of them to treat every DIY question with utmost respect, even if the question didn't have respect in it is not reasonable.
One thread is about the health risk of a particular type of system. Someone said that the people involved were acting above her and that this stuff wasn't brain surgery. Funny, one of the people in this thread has spoken at length with the CDC as to the risks of legionella. So she's right, Dave would be much closer to an epidemiologist than a brain surgeon. Or are campaigning to make the risk of CO known and get it addressed by the industry and codes bodies? Which other forums that you frequent have that level of expertise?
Another thread had to do with an install in the middle of cold country (Alaska) where the locals are not familiar with the modern boiler the person wants to use. Many people warned him of the risks of such an approach, some in a questioning way. There were some comments more helpful than others, but I think the person got the message that the bulk of the people responding felt the risks were very high and that they would not recommend the proposed action. The person thought that going a few days in the frozen winter was not a huge problem, and that's a decision he has the right to make. When you're deciding for someone else, it's a much different thing. It's not about lawyers, it's about addressing the comfort, safety and health of the people served.
jerry
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homeowner here
> You read the manuals, you follow code, and you
> use common sense. There is no reason a compotent
> person couldn't do it themselves....
I'm a homeowner. I do all my own electrical work (electricity is easy) and all kinds of repairs. But a gas boiler...you've got to be kidding. With electricity, the things I learned on each project will help me with the next one. But I don't intend to get into the boiler business, so nothing I learn about installing boilers is useful subsequently. So the cost to me of doing a safe and reliable installation myself (pricing my time and effort at, say, one-twentieth of what a professional charges per hour) would be higher than getting a professional installation done.0 -
I'd love to have one of these DIY'ERS ride in my van for a day... I think it's so funny how everyone things the pipe trades are so easy... I am exposed to, and install plumbing, heating, air conditioning, fire protection, lawn sprinkler systems, drain cleaning.. the list goes on. This job is SO much more than plunging a toilet, or lighting a pilot on an old american standard 3 hundred billion BTU boiler.. but it's (sadly enough) how it's precieved.
'but lots of people can , in fact, do your job. They choose not to or are prevented by statute'
How do they know they could do my job? You probably don't know the first thing about how much training and studying us tradesmen have to do just to stay up on all the new heating equipment. We had a customer once who laughed at my boss straight to his face... Reason being, he called the neanderthal who knows how to screw pipes together(how we are precieved by homeowners) a 'technician' She said that when she thinks of a tech, she thinks of someone with a technical job, like nasa she said... My bosses reply? He said that our people probably attend more training per yer then NASA techs..
Her check cashed nicely in our bank account...0 -
I don't want to single out all homeowners.. There are some really great ones out there. We just need to take the good with the bad..
And by the way, I greatly encourage learning and growth of all people WILLLING to learn. Not people who come in with this stuck up 'I've never done this before, but am sure I can do it better than you' attitude.0 -
you're right
but this particular guy in fact wanted to hire a professional. He didn't say he could do it better, and in fact neither did I .
The knee jerk, 'call a professional' is pointless. Some are good some are bad.
We can't tell the difference by the way a guys truck looks.
what he should do is call the people that make the boiler and see what deal they will do for a guy willing to install it. They should be interested.0 -
Maybe Maybe Not
IMO, same goes for potable water, though there's more skill in making pipes not leak than wiring.
I think this kind of sums up the attitude. Electricians don't seem see them selves on some higher plato than other trades. If I had my choice of leaking pipes or bad wiring I'd take the leaky pipes. It is going to be pretty obvious pretty fast that you have a problem. Your house isn't going to burn down. It is a lot easier to track down the problem. Further more, I doubt the average residential plumber is on the phone with engineers all the time or asking the distributor or manufacture questions all the time. Again, I'm not saying everything about your job is easy. It is a lot of grunt work and it is hard. You do have to know what your doing, but you make it sound like no one else can figure it out. Like you guys have the special "plumbers gene" and all home owners should stand back in hushed reverence when you enter the room. Get off your high horse!
DIY0 -
Watch out ffor the learning curve.
In alaska it gets a bit cool nah downright nasty,our codes allow us to ,with a propane devise ,lash it up with a soft copper tubing with out side tanks. only minor technicality is that at certain temps,propane doesnt behave too well.and no,the idea isnt to take a weed burner and go out and jack the temp up in the vicinity to "get it to go"
.. not that i havent seen it done! Yikes! Why me,Lord? oil burners are reliable although why do you think they make day tanks?There are times things cant keep up with the cold. cars ,people an yes heat plants. condensing boilers have a heck of a time,yes we have nat gas ,...in some areas... we all like to save money and buy groceries sometimes the home owner thinks i could do THAT! however the reason i make it look so easy and calmly cooly bolt these things together is maybe from some idea from servicing them and discovering what may best be described as their DESIGN FEATURES .There is the reason i dont want your cousin Louie to do a partial lombotomy on my neighbours children just because hes Handy with a knife:) and seen it done on discovery channel. You gotta give teh devil his due.Luckily for us here in alaska Hes vacated..it is just too da%* cold i think a diy can lash things up and take reasonable care and get sound advise and council from where he is at. for me to speculate on what will this be like for george to do is a lttle bit over qualified at the momment...wait i will go out to my 350 4X4 one ton and get my tool for that...here it is! whats that? "It is my crystal Ball!. "well it doesnt Look like a crystal ball!" so i bounce the red white blue green rubber ball off the floor...and say "well...what was the ? see Even Plumbers can have a sence of humor. 0 -
In case you haven't figgered it out yet....
The "average plumber" don't hang out here.....
He's still out there installing standing pilot 80%er's
Don't want notin' to do wit dem dar POS intelligent boilers..0 -
A hushed awe falls over the crowd. Everyone backs away with heads bowed as the mighty plumber enters...0
This discussion has been closed.
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