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energy savings---snake oil?
Comments
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well said
We give our potential customers multiple choices. Tain't up to me to decide if they want a VW or a BMW. But, either way, I want the work.
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20 times increase?
AND Green Stamps.
Better recheck those inflation table again lad (:-o)
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I remember at one co. installing System 2000's. For every one we installed we had to get another account or two to make up for the oil we had saved the customer. Some burned 1500 gallons per year were now at 4-500. You do the math.
Some people tend to install new equipment and then raise their t-stat to 74* when it used to be 66* and claim they saved nothing.0 -
quite
the initiative for sales and customer service eh geno?
leo g0 -
On the two of you
thongs would inhibit quite a number of things.
jerry0 -
the meter measures the system
I always try to address people by name, but you seem to not have included one.
I've heard of this Newton guy, wasn't he a politician?
If the only heat loss in the system was surface conductive and the insulation ideal, then then the two would behave the same. Since you have other things that are either independent or nonlinear to ideal R value predicted conduction, it's nowhere nearly so simple. There is a lower limit to that acceptable rate of air change for IAQ reasons, and the volume of that air is much more important than the last few degrees you need to warm it. If envelope permeability is more of your problem, then setbacks don't do so much in terms of the impact to overall heat loss and meter reading. If the inside temp causes changes in the humidity within the insulation, sudenly the R value is no longer constant.Many other issues related to the non-ideal nature of various insultion materials has been documented.
I was trained as a physicist and have been a system designer for a few years now.:) I have had to run complex systems to tight tolerances before, and you end up finding more and more things to measure and more and more things that interrelate. My brother taught me about design of experiments and it saved my bacon a couple times. Hint: you can never characterize a system by changing one variable at a time.
My rusty memory is that Oak Ridge did a significant amount of total building test lab work in the late 70s (you remember, we had an energy crisis back then.) They wrote a number of papers about insulated walls and net system effects. There were several major universities also doing this. The big difference between these and prior studies was the use of computer collected data and tighter system controls of the operating conditions.
jerry
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snake oil redux
I know from reading this board that most 'wetheads' (I just learned the word) are helpful, sensible and interested in learning and teaching. (Quite a difference from usenet's alt.hvac.)
But one sign of a snake oil salesman is that he gets huffy and aggressive if you question his claims, and turns on you personally. I have seen that in a couple of contractors who gave quotes, and I am certainly seeing that in several posts on this thread.
(Incidentally, what's the big deal about my handle? It's just--ahem--the letters of my fraternity. )
A couple of people have emphatically repeated statements I've already heard and which I was questioning, as though mere repetition will make them true. Others have posted long, complicated stories from which I can't determine what caused the drop in gas use (if any).
Many thanks for those who responded sensibly. I am not sure what I am doing wrong that all the steps I'm taking don't make a difference to gas consumption. Now the only thing left to do is buy a new boiler, but if that doesn't work as well as expected, I'm out a lot of money. I'd like to be green---including green at the bank.0 -
start with your insulation
this is just MHO. Others may see it differently.
As I said in my previous post, if you didn't save with improved insulation, maybe it didn't get done right. A blower door test is great for infiltration testing, and you should certainly recover the cost of the caulk for doing this. It tells you nothing of the insulation. Voids in the insulation just kill you.
The best thing I know for looking at insualtion problems is a thermal imaging camera. It used to be that larger utilites would come to your house and do an energy audit including a heat image of the outside of your house. If they will do this, get them out. Then offer the person coffee and lunch or a snack if they want it, really butter them up. Then get them to walk through each room of your house and look for cold spots on each floor, wall and ceiling. There can be some real surprises! Find em and fix em. You often have to get really creative on how to do this. If they get interested, get their card and see if they'll swing by a second time to see how you did.
If you can't get that, another way is to get a very sensitive IR temp gun then grid and measure your house. I wouldn't get the grid get bigger than 1'x1', or you can miss a real doosy. That's why the cameras are so nice.
Does the blower door company offer heat imaging? I have no idea how much that would cost if they even do it.
I hear that you're frustrated, but the edge in your first message put a lot of people off. Keep after it and let us know waht you find.
hope this helps,
jerry0 -
Gas consumption
Is the boiler the ONLY gas appliance in the home?
If not, how did you calculate hot water use as a part of the gas consumption?
Gas stove or electric?
Did you monitor your electric meter and account for heat gains from electrical use?
Did occupancy and building use change during the monitoring period?
I've worked on accelerated energy use monitoring programs, and it's not easy getting accurate data.
***Bottom line: the shorter the monitoring period, the greater the deviation (and lack of accuracy) in meaningful data.***
There are many studies and real data is available for many of the areas you mention. Try a few hours at a search engine.
I don't totally disagree with you that some claims are misleading, but the hard science is out there. If I have time, I'll see what I can dig up.0 -
omega.com
I was just figuring and hoping that you are the original employee at Omega.com and could give us all generous discounts on IR laser thermometers and other test equipment!
Why don't you affiliate yourself with a technical school, get some government grants and get several boilers for your home and start doing some of the empical data collection? Better yet, have two identical new homes built for you and do true controlled testing.
On a serious note, if your house is fairly tight consider a sealed combustion system or any condensing boiler since it will help your envelope by not having to get all the makeup air through every crack and hole to the outside.
I'm not convinced of the necessity for outdoor reset on condensing boilers that can also have their modulation controlled based on their return temperatures. For me intuitively, the return water temperature would take the outdoor temperature and any occupancy or solar heat gains into consideration and saves hanging a probe on the side of the building. But you know, it would be really nice just to actually be able to look up properly controlled test results to see if that's the case.0 -
bottom line
> Is the boiler the ONLY gas appliance in the
> home?
No.
> If not, how did you calculate hot water
> use as a part of the gas consumption?
Turned thermostats off, household took showers, let water heater go on and then off, looked at change in gas meter. Same process with dishwasher, washer/dryer. No gas stove.
> ***Bottom line: the shorter the
> monitoring period, the greater the deviation (and
> lack of accuracy) in meaningful data.***
Certainly true.0 -
That's more sense in one post
than most people will make in a life time of talking.
Mark H
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Huffy?
You called me a snake oil salesman.
Did you mean that in a good way?
I asked for details regarding your blower door testing. Can you give me the details?
You may not need a new heating system. You may have shell issues that are far worse than the heating system.
You cast the first stone here, I just defended myself.
Give more details about your specific situation.
Mark H
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flawed
Your measurements are off.
Snake oil?
What the heck are you trying to say ? As if we have to prove our self worth. Who are you?
Gary
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well now
I don't consider myself a snake oil salesman at all. I can tell you i have no idea why you aren't saving money on your gas bill. I too would like to see the results of your blower door test. When it comes right down to it though it is your choice. I always offer something run of the mill and something high tech so if you don't believe me then fine just pick the cheap one i won't be offended. Now here's the but, alot of my clients don't give 2 hoots about what they save. All they know is that they are incredable comfortable, and that thier boiler room looks like art. they acctually bring people to the basement to show it off.
i've had more than 1 person get all glassy eye'd when i explain lots of technical things to them. Then I just flip open a vitronic 2oo controll or show them one of our boiler rooms. And put it to them something like this after thier jaw comes back up off the floor. "It costs more but doesn't it look amazing?, you sign down here at the bottom.... It's cool , it's beautifull,look at the fit and finish of that boiler jacket! and (gasp) it lights up. No hype, no snake oil just the facts. For alot of folks when you come right down to it that's what it's about. They don't drive a Yugo or even a chevy. They don't have Kenmore appliances or an RCA T.V.. They don't drink cheap beer, so why buy a cheap boiler? it just doesn't make sense. Put a Viessmann next to a xyz boiler and just look at the difference heck the paint is probably better than what's on your car. For many people that's enough reason right there. Question, if someone buys a product because it's beautiful even if it did not perform better (as you seem to be claiming)does that make them stupid? and the guy who sold it to them a "snakeoil salesman". Wow all my clients with beautiful cars, and rolex watches, and 1200$$ washer machines, and 5000$ stoves must be bummed....
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Jerry, I agree with you
the best way to economically heat a building is to stop the heat from leaving the building in the first place.
When I first got my house, I spent a couple of years adding storm windows, beefing up insulation, weatherstripping, etc. etc. etc. The boiler is a 21-year-old Burnham V-14, and though it's old enough to drink, it is still efficient enough that I haven't replaced it. In recent years I've optimized the circulation rates thru the system and added thermostatic radiator valves and a digital setback thermostat.
The result is that I now heat the house with a firing rate less than half what it was in 1980, when my grandmother lived here. The old boiler was fired at 1.65 gallons per hour of oil. The V-14 was originally fired at 1 GPH, ran for some years at 0.85, and is now running at 0.75. And the house is perfectly comfortable at near-zero outside temperatures.
The heating system is only one part of the energy-efficiency scenario. Keep the heat from leaking out of the house, and see that your system (not just the boiler) is in peak condition, and watch your fuel bills drop.
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Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
0 -
???
I Can't believe this post hasn't been deleted yet!
it's hard to immagine, but re-reading "Alpha's" post several times, he asked if the hype about the economic savings that are usually claimed on outdoor reset, higher effecient boilers, etc. were "real", or "snake oil". I don't think our industry ("is running on fantasies designed to sell expensive boilers and controls and repair services---much like selling those magnetic water softeners, or weight-loss pills."), however I can see how some might think so.
he wants to see the proof. If he didn't get the data, he claims to have, correct, then explain it to him, so he can prove it to himself.
aren't we all here to learn something.
I don't think this has been very "professional", or helpful. there are some posts about how to get the data, but I don't think anyone really knows how to "prove" the savings that are usually boasted about when selling a radiant system. each case is different. I think Mark Eatherton probably has the most up to date data, and can prove his savings, but would that same system work for "Alpha"?
there is a difference between boiler effeciency, and system effeciency. you can have the greatest boiler in the world, but if the house is poorly constructed, with lots of air infiltration, and no insulation, then your system effeciency will suffer, and your fuel bills will be higher.
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Alpha-omega
what is it that you sell sir?Besides BS.
Call me a cheat and liar, I have 20yrs of customer's behind
me that would disagree wiyh you.They are my facts.
You can't change the laws of physics even if you think your God.
steve0 -
I had no idea
you'd lost so much weight Mark!
Atkins?
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Great series of posts. Like many on the wall I am a heating contractor - a little bit of scorched air - lots of hydronic heat. We are asked to save our customers real cash almost daily - very seldom does this mean a new furnace or boiler. Rather we advise a whole house evaluation - insulation, doors, windows, foundation etc Most times home upgrades to reduce heat loss are money ahead. Plugging all the drafts doesn't do a darn thing if the heat loss through the foundation is rediculously high - you get the idea - the whole house has to be treated as a building envelope. Then and only then can you apply a heat loss calculation to determine what the next step may be. The new tachnologies are wonderful and wonderfully expensive - and we still sell lots of Vitodens and other Viessmann products, radiant upgrades etc. Our customers want comfort - once in a while it even involves saving them some money. On the coldest day of the year it still takes X amount of heat to warm a space - it is my experience that the shoulder heating season is where we can offer some savings. Two stage VS furnaces, condensing technologies, control technologies all cost a lot of money and yet most customers want warmth first.
So after reading all the posts - including the first by Mr AO - are we selling comfort or technology. Are we using technology to our benefit? Do we explain ourselves well enough that a Customer understands that turning the boiler down a few degrees but turns the thermostats up a few degrees defeats the original intent?
When I cruise the heating departments of the big box stores (take your pick) the consumer advertizing screams at us that we will save x amount of fuel costs just by changing the thermostat - not unless we change our heating habits it doesn't. If we program the little beast to do the same old thing as the old Honeywell - the heating system does the same old thing. That suggests at least some snake oil has been spilled - Honeywell wouldn't lie about their products - would they?? Or is it a lie or consumer expectations not being met?
I think the original question and suggestion that the heating business needs to address the efficiency idea and produce some real numbers to verify savings claims is legitimate.
As installers we too often parrot the latest advertising bumpf - and sincerely believe it to be true - but I think it is time that the major manufacturers belly up to the bar and produce real cost comparisons on real renovation projects.
Most evidence is anecdotal - but a few projects have been tracked - before and after - the savings can be real and are in most cases.
I think the basic question of "where's the bang for my buck?" is an honest question - eventhough it was asked in a less than friendly manner.0 -
In defense of Alpha...
His premise was basically correct.
We claim savings from various control and manufacturing strategies and support those claims almost exclusively in the language of the common man - our clients. That support almost always comes from anectodal "evidence" which by its very nature is hearsay. "Proving" something anecdotally is purely smoke and mirrors - and that WAS his main point.
What Alpha missed is the fact that most people cannot and will not relate to the physics and mathematical/scientific data that most, if not all our anectdotal "evidence" stems from.
Alpha is dead wrong however to suggest there is some ominous basis for us using anectodal comment to prove the underlying and purely scientific means we base it upon.
It is purely a tool to convey information to those who may not have a background in thermo-dynamics.
This in no way denies that huslers and marketing sharks exist. They are hugely outnumbered in this particular venue by the pure scientists that lurk around every corner of this website; keeping the rest of us in line!
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Got milk?
"So in sum, I am afraid your industry is running on fantasies designed to sell expensive boilers and controls and repair services---much like selling those magnetic water softeners, or weight-loss pills."
When the arguments start off with a statement that setting back a thermostat 5 degrees for 12 hours makes no difference and ends up with the above quoted "fact" and the poster won't use his or her actual name - I have no obligation to take their statements seriously. Every single one of the notes can be answered, but as the old saying goes - never argue with a fool,people might not know the difference.
Take the lead-off statement (a). The reduction in delta-T between the indoor and outdoor temps must by its very nature lead to fuel savings. If not, then all we've learned regarding the physics of heating and A/C go out the window (pun unintended).
(b) Well, that depends on the system doesn't it? They haven't been willing to give us the data and information to analyze their operating perameters and, for all I know, their system wasn't designed for 130 F water. I can't get better gas mileage from a 74 buick by installing leather seats, but I might ride in better comfort - if you get my drift.
(c) Payback? Again, the details are missing. But they're looking up the wrong end of the horse. ROI (return on investment) is the number that should be considered.
(d) I have a customer who had purchased a 1900's era tudor style mansion with a massive two-pipe steam system. We installed a new boiler and converted that system to hot water. Some radiant was added and the house was divided up into multiple zones. This isn't your run of the mill customer and his company manufactures a specific product used in hydronics. As a result, he has the capability to monitor his systems energy usage accurately and has done so. The new system (according to him) has shaved 70% off of the previous fuel bills. And, yes, it is a condensing boiler utilizing outdoor reset while monitoring supply and return water temperatures. The two-pipe standing cast iron radiators perform quite well at temps below 130 F, so a full range of reset ratio was possible. I designed the system and determined the reset ratios by utilizing heat loss/gain programs I've been schooled on using correctly.
(e) With a mind set like that, I wouldn't want the work. Once again, think delta-T and the loss of efficiency when using bang-bang controls.
(f) Depends upon the system's design. Going back to that converted Tudor-style mansion, the heat loss calculations allowed us to keep the water temperatures within the condensing range - even on a zero degree day.
(g) Same mansion. 70% in the first year. But we've had other customers see substantial savings with standard cast iron boilers when installed properly and with systems designed to perform optimally.
(h) My original post regarding cars applies, but I don't recommend doing anything quickly. Instead, I prefer my customers to carefully consider all options and then choose based upon what fits their budget and desires. Would I rather sell the BMW vs the VW? You betcha. But in the end, it doesn't make any difference who they want to pay - me or the utility company year after year after year.............
So, no I'm not going to argue or debate the issues with this individual. It's not worth the effort. The facts are available from work we've performed and the fuel bills our customers have shared bear witness to our stated claims (which never state a given percentage other than the rated appliance efficiency) regarding their potential ROI.
Case in point: Two customers living side-by-side in identical homes built by the same builder within months of each other. First one chooses the 80+ furnace replacement option in order to save on the installation costs. Two years later, the neighbor immediately sees the wisdom behind the ROI when his old hag of a furnace dies and chooses the 90+ furnace. Several months later, customer 1 calls to voice her displeasure that she has higher fuel bills than does her neighbor. She was reminded that the choice had been hers and that I had included lots of details regarding the fuel usage - with projected annual costs based upon 2,200 run hours (typical for our zone) at the then rate for gas - and that she had opted to save on the up-front costs. Now she regrets her decision because the fuel costs have escalated dramatically these past few years. She knows that every month, her neighbor is seeing a ROI that she can't have with her existing 80+ equipment. She's considering our offer to upgrade at a reduced rate. If she agrees, we'll donate the used furnace to Habitat for Humanity and take the donation write-off on our taxes.
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I..........
don't think it can be said much better than Dave just said it.I don't think Mr AO really wants to do any thing but vent.The laws of physics cannot be overcome by marketing, wishful thinking or stuborness.
John0 -
Once again.......
a homeowner has come here with a concern over things he has heard and once again he is attacked for using language that touches someone's nerve. A little too sensitive, aren't we?. I never heard him pick on any one of us specifically. His assertions about our trade, while painted with a pretty broad stroke, are not completely without merit. I hear all of these magical fuel savings numbers get tossed around like they are carved in stone somewhere. Show me the stone.
I don't offer fuel savings, even though there are substantial savings in my systems over the norm. I offer comfort. Fuel savings are a by product of a technically correct system. How much savings? Let's wait till the energy bills, both fuel and electric, start rolling in to see how much it costs to operate. Predicting fuel savings is a slippery slope. Impossible to predict and crazy to even try.
hb
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Well said, Ken and other voices of reason
My first and last response on this.
Tom Goebig0 -
I must wonder aloud - if Mr AO had signed off as Mr R Sole (play on words intended) and not offended Christian sensitivities - would the thread have taken the path it did? (My apologies to the Wall for my profanity - but parts of the posts have made me smile! Thank you)0 -
same
Thanks for tossing out the challenge. As in all endeavors on this planet, the results obtainable from making a change are entangled with everything else in the situation. Thus, if your question is whether you will in fact "save 1% of the bill per 1 degree setback for 8 hours", the answer is: "It depends." In your 5 degree setback, did the indoor temperature actually drop 5 degrees, and, if so, for what part of that 12 hours. Further, would you characterize your home as "high thermal mass" or "low thermal mass." It makes a big difference. If you have a high thermal mass, then lowering the thermostat setting will cause that mass to give up a good deal of stored heat and retard the rate at which temperatures decline. Then, when the heat comes on again, that heat that came out of storage is replaced by burning more fuel. Net result in a high mass house is very little fuel savings.
Thus, if you have a strictly wood framed house with moderate insulation and forced air heating, setback will definitely save fuel. The same house built on a radiant slab will save substantially less. The curious thing is, the lower the thermal mass and the more poorly the house is insulated and sealed, the greater the savings using setback.
As I said, "it depends..."
There certainly are many information sources in the industry that will tell you flat out that using the setback strategy with a high mass radiant system is a poor idea: That it saves little if any fuel while compromising comfort.
Yet, the urge to "do good" tends to overrule reason. Thus in California, our Energy Commission requires setback thermostats in ALL homes, claiming this will save fuel and disregarding the "it depends" caveat. The fact that an installer believes the Energy Commission and earnestly tries for high efficiency hardly makes him a "snake oil" salesman.
As to lower water temperatures being more efficient and to what degree more, the "it depends" rule holds. The amount of heat transmitted through the heat exchanger depends on the temperature differential between combustion gases and water temperature, so dropping water temperature MUST increase heat transfer. Back-of-napkin calculations (which I will not subject you to, suggest around a 5% efficiency gain by dropping water temperature 30 degrees. Still, there is more to it. Jacket losses are a factor: Higher water temperatures drive more heat out through the jacket--this is a loss of efficiency (Unless the boiler is located in the living space, as many are). Traditionally, boilers have had 1" fiberglass insulation: Today, the better ones have 3" of high density insulation, so lowering the water temperature would have less net effect. How about loss up the flue: wouldn't off-cycle convection through the heat exchanger increase as temperature rises? Wouldn't lowering water temperature reduce these losses? I think the answer must be "yes"; but "how much?" Well, "it depends". Does the boiler have a vent-damper? How high above the burner is the dilution point of the draft-hood? These things make a difference.
I could go on in like vein applying the rule of"it depends" to each of your statements. Each of the efficiency measures you debunk is perfectly valid for those conditions under which it applies. Take a drafty, low-mass house with barely sufficient baseboard convection heating and a boiler operating at 50% or below (such things exist) and apply any of those measures mentioned, and you will get the claimed results or better.
Your skepticism is healthy, and I think our industry needs a good dose of it. Your cynicism about the industry ("your industry is running on fantiasies designed to sell expensive boilers and controls and repair services") is, however way off base. Generalizing about those found on this site, at least: what we have are tradesmen/businessmen trying to sift through mountains of ambiguous information to come up with good recommendations for their customers and basing their economic hopes on the premise that good service will be rewarded.
Bill (alpha-beta) Clinton0 -
ASHRAE oil?
Recommend to send you concerns to ASHRAE or maybe ASME as they are the BIG brother over-seers of the saving energy industry. They bost having had done the testing and can either back up the claims or discount them. Another government funded think-tank is NREL, National Renewable Energy Labs here in Golden, CO. They have built houses and buildings etc. in controlled lab environments as well as in the Real World and have proven their methods. Having said all that, I have to agree, the payback on all issues is extremely long.
Vince0 -
Precisely!
>> ***Bottom line: the shorter the monitoring period, the greater the
>>deviation (and lack of accuracy) in meaningful data.***
>Certainly true.
Accuracies of a sample period of EVEN A MONTH will give you deviations so wild your data will be meaningless. Even with the methods you mention (which are a step in the right direction). The homes we monitored had the furnace as the only gas appliance, and the data was still hard to normalize.
Questions: Did you do a complete system tune-up, maintenance and operation checkout before you started your survey? Something like a faulty circulator or thermostat could whack everything.
How's the system response and comfort level?
Have you searched the 'net for any research in the areas you mentioned?
I'll try to find and scan a study I have on outdoor reset. It will show you the money.0 -
As Bill said...
"It depends"!
Well said Bill:-)
Time to go mix up some more snake erl ;-O
Mark (Cappa) Eatherton0 -
With all due respect
the atack was initaited by the poster HB, and was directed at the ENTIRE industry.
Wouldn't you agree that asking a question is one thing, and coming into a discussion with a pre-ordained judgement is another?
I asked for specifics and to date have recieved no response.
Not personal HB, it's professional. Our profession was slandered.
You sell the most expensive boiler in the world as your top line, so according to the posters argument, you are a snake oil salesman extordinaire.
I didn't attack HB, I defended the industry.
Sorry if I don't go into "guilty as charged" mode every time someone complains.
I agree that there are people out there that make wild claims. I am not one of them and I have NEVER seen those claims made here on the wall.
This "homeowner" didn't come here with questions, they came here with a judgement of our industry, YOU included.
I was asked for scientific data to support that which this particular poster seems to have disproven. We were then called snake oil salesman that trick people into buying expensive boilers. Do you see yourself this way? Is a Viessmann Vitodens worth the money, or are you tricking people into buying the most expensive boiler you can sell?
I know the answer here HB. You are not a liar or a crook.
Has it ocurred to anyone that maybe this poster is NOT being truthful? Is it possible that the "findings" of this poster are made up? If I posted here tomorrow with a fake name and no e-mail adress and said that I spent more on fuel with a Vitodens than I did with a Munchkin or Monitor MZ, would you all go into "sorry" mode?
Look at the post. It states that EVERYTHING we KNOW to be true is FALSE. Top that off with "fantasy".
This poster never talked about comfort, they only referred to savings, and we were all told that what "we" say is a lie.
I will never apologize for something I did not do.
I never lied to a customer regarding savings, and I did not attack this poster.
Respectfully,
Mark H
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Why donate an 80% furnace to Habitat and stick a poor homeowner who can barely afford a house of the their own with long term high monthly gas bills. Intentions are honorable and I admire your intent, but wouldn't donating a higher efficiency furnace make more sense. (just think of the higher tax deduction)0 -
gas in nyc was up 73% in nyc
this winter, ouch, wait until the gas company has taken your tax dollar and "capital increases" to fund stealing customers away from the oil companies, and when gas is 4-5 times what it is now, then you will sing a different tune about "snake oil" a quarter point in efficiency will matter then that day is coming sooner than you can say shazam!!!
i just put someone in a slant-fin sx-150edp afue 84%, ok for now, but, I also gave him primary/secondary/mixing outdoor rest, and full zone control, and I know that it will be more efficient, but more than that, we has a manifold setup, where he can add domestic hot water, a second boiler, thats right, we are looking to put in an oil burner, maybe where he keeps his garbage cans now, with the tank under his driveway, (got to check the code), with his new manifold, he can add another heat source anytime I can also add a WM ULTRA of half his load, just to get the water up to temp quickly and to carry him on warmer days
they are getting better and better if you do radiant, with a 110f supply and a 90 return, you can suck every drop of heat out of the flue gasses, WM claims 98% on their ULTRA in that situation, and then there are those that are utilizing radian heat in the combustion chamber with thin metal mesh domes that retain the flame, and radiate its energy to the heat exchanger dont tell me the homeowner wont see a difference on his gas bill
At the current rate of gas price increases, the difference in price between an 83% system and a 95% sys will pay for itself in one winter lets see last winter I paid 270 per month, this winter, 600 per month, next year 1200..then 2400, times 4 months = 9600 divide by 100, to get points = 96, times 12 points (the efficiency difference) = 1152, which is real close to the diff in price between a WM Cg and a WM ULTRA stick that in your flue pipe and burn it with snake oil !!!
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I......
wonder what the BTU content of snake oil is?0 -
& how many snakes to the gallon?0 -
It depends!!
Where's the snake from, what did it eat, were there any magnets involved, how long is it?
It depends:-)
ME0 -
Mark,
You point(s) are well taken.
And sadly correct.
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And the
polarity of the magnets?
N/S? or E/W?
?
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N-N, S-S...That's how I'm told they work best:-)
ME0
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