energy savings---snake oil?

R. Kalia

I read here and elsewhere that

(a) a setback thermostat will save 1% of the bill per 1 deg setback for 8 hours. But I have done an experiment and 5 deg setback for 12 hrs/day vs no setback makes no difference that I can see (I am reading gas consumption on the meter in therms and dividing by degree-days---I would easily detect a 5% change or even a 2% change).

(b) Lower water temperatures are more efficient...I have tried it, and there is no change in gas usage per dd between 130 and 180 water temp.

(c) Air infiltration can be a large part of the bill...but I have had a blower test done, plugged the leaks, repeated, plugged more leaks...and saved maybe 5%, which will pay for the blower test and caulk and cans of Great Stuff---in about ten years.

So these claims I haven't tested:

(d) My old boiler could be "as low as" 50% efficient, so I might save "up to" 40-45% with a new boiler. People report anecdotes of how much a few selected customers are saving....BUT there is no statistically significant information, and the reported savings don't take gas price variations or weather variations into account by calculating therms per degree-day. One contractor told me one of his customers was saving $300 each month, but he wouldn't tell me what the original bill was. Real helpful information.

(e) outdoor reset will save "up to" 10-15%...BUT nobody knows for sure. I am afraid that if I actually get outdoor reset I'll find it doesn't save me anything, but I'll be out $500 or so.

(f) A condensing boiler is more efficient. I bet if I spend untold thousands on one, I'll find it confers no benefit in January and February when the meter is clocking most of the year's gas usage, because the water will need to be too hot.

(g) a modulating burner will save even more because on/off operation is bad...BUT no one can predict how much is saved. I don't mean assurances or anecdotes, I mean evidence.

(h) I should quickly replace my 40-year-old boiler with a Munchkin, Ultra, whatever...anything except an old reliable cast-iron design. But no one will guarantee that these will last 15 years, let alone 40, and the warranty language indicates that the manufacturers do expect them to fail soon, much like newer appliances of all kinds are made flimsy and designed to fail soon after the warranty expires. (But no other appliances cost $6000-10,000.)

So in sum, I am afraid your industry is running on fantasies designed to sell expensive boilers and controls and repair services---much like selling those magnetic water softeners, or weight-loss pills.

Feel free to prove me wrong (which is different from just telling me I am wrong).

Steve Eayrs

I don't have time to prove you wrong, but know you are. I have seen the before and after too many times. This stuff sells itself, since all people need to do in this small town is compare their bill with their neigbors, who has nicer boiler, outdoor reset, etc..


Somethings evidently wrong with your lab conditions, or testing equipment. If I find the time I will post actual dollars saved on a few jobs, but of course it will just be my word against yours.
You never know I might just be a traveling medicine man selling snake oil. But I don't travel far. Too much work in one little place.

There is real science behind all you mentioned that you cannot simply disregard, because you have done a little testing.

Steve
Steve

PJO_5

Interesting Comments....

I'm sure there will be a few Wallies around before long :-) but in the meantime...

I have personally reduced my boiler temp as needed, and it provides increased comfort (less "bang-bang" off and on and the assocaited temperature swings), less noise to the baseboard side of my system, and HAS saved me a little money IMHO.

My boiler is oil-fired by the way, so I can't compare "apples to apples" in some of these situations.

I have a (six year old) cast iron boiler so I can't comment on the condensing issues, except to say that it's very important that the delivery system be as good as possible...if you have the best boiler, it won't matter if your delivery is bad (under/oversized, etc.), and if you have a very good delivery system, then a "fair" boiler will still get you a good TOTAL efficiency.

Insulation is also very important IMHO. The best money spent, me thinks...

Sounds like you have done many things to improve these last two items, as I also have done.

Outdoor reset; I do not have this, but reset the temp myself as needed. It does good things as far as the boiler operation and comfort, and ALSO saves a bit of money IMHO.

Setback; I don't use this as much as I used to, but still use it during the day...and one zone in my house is rarely used and still goes under considerable setback twice a day (6 to 8 degrees). I must respectfully disagree with your statement on this issue, although like most things everyone's result is different (just like their opinion!).

I also disagree with your "fantasy..." statement to all the Wallies. I seriously doubt that ALL of the people that discuss these issues are wrong. While I don't necessarily advocate buying a top-end boiler, I can see that it would be more efficient with everything else being the same.

By the way, I have a "magnetic" softener and can PROVE that it reduces the hardness between 10% and 15%, and that's all I need. Don't go down this road with me, because while I'm not a true Wallie (just an H.O. 'round these parts) I do have experience in this last field.

Respectfully, PJO

leo g_81

that is why

we sell comfort. i think it would be cool if maybe somehow, we could get us wetheads together, to try to fund some real tests on this stuff. i know mark e. has lab access, and siggy has a computer programme, but wouldn't it be neat to rent a warehouse for a couple of years, build 3 test "houses" inside, (so that the climate could be controlled) then run these F/A and H/W systems through their paces.

i tend to see what you are saying , with all this ancedotal evidence. here's my take, i feel that in areas like where i live, the left coast of canada, these condensers probably do save more fuel, as our heating season is almost entirely a shoulder season, so our system water temps tend to stay low.

leo g

Dave DeFord

Me thinks this tread will be around for a while

Here's my take on this situation. I am told (I'm no expert) that for each and every BTU a house loses it must be replaced in order to bring the house back up to the beginning temp. Given that, I can see a worthwhile energy savings if the temp inside the house equalizes with the outside temp for a significant time. Otherwise, all a set back would do is delay the replacement of the BTU's lost with some increase in efficiency due to longer running cycles of the heating boiler/furnace and some decrease in losses as the indoor temp drops closer to the outside temps. I have not experimented with this so I don't have any data, but logic tells me that the savings from longer cylces and decreased losses would be in the single digit percentages. I can see where insulation, less air infiltration, and the like can produce significant saving. I can also see a savings if the indoor temp is permanently reduced, but I too am dubious about the set-back claims. I am very interested in any comments in this area as I am soon to begin renovations on an older farm house with steam heat and would like to spend my money as wisely as possible. Just my $ .02.

Uni R

energy savings---snake oil?

Steve, his point is that he would like to see the real science. If in a controlled situation certain savings can be realized by doing certain things he'd like to see results of those studies. Real science is about proving what we already think we know.


The NRC in Canada does some great studies on the envelope, building identical houses, keeping the controls tight etc., however they never tend to do any studies on the actual heating systems.

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/bes/index.html

jp_2

error in measurements

first off, if you use 200cu ft a day, 5% change is of course 10 cu ft, the last meter dial is only accurrate to 100 cu ft intervals. thus you are giving best "guess" at anything between, say 100 and 200cuft on meter.
mathematically you can not guess that you use 125 cu ft, you can say either 120 or 130 at best(significant figures). so if you are using less than 200 cuft you are really guessing, and guessing leads to errors.
a better method would be to clock the burner and still there is error there. it may be rated at 50,000btu but is it exactly that or is it 50,000 -+ 10%. then theres the btu value of gas, what error lies in that 1,000btu /cu ft we often talk about, 5%? 8%? more?

every factional change in temperature involves factional change in energy. if someone can prove different, I bet they will get $1,000,000.00 for winning the Noble Prize by proving Newton wrong!
to do this right you have to take into account ALL variables, temperature, wind, sunlight, rain(evaporative cooling), energy content of fuel and of course you need an exact duplicate as a control.
I think a better way to phase it, "I can't seem to measure a small difference per day".

Jim Davis

Bet you love those window commercials-save 40%

Most of your doubts are well founded, which bring up the saying two wrongs don't make a right.
If your equipment is running inefficient setting back or lower water temperature may not accomplish anything. If it is 50% efficient it is because somebody made it that way, because many old appliances can operate close to the same efficiency as new ones rated the same. Verification by measurement is the best proof, not any one's opinion's or misinformaton.
Outdoor reset can save, but only if the system is functioning properly in the first place. Otherwise it may cause the system to self-destruct.
Condensing boilers should be more efficient if that is there design. Your boiler can be made to condense but it wouldn't be very efficient. Once again it is the set up of the system after it is installed. Nothing comes preset.
The thing I know most about modulating equipment is that it never saved fuel on commercial or industrial equipment but the vessels it was used on were totally different.
Magnetic or electronic water treatment is to keep scale from collecting on the heat exchange surface of equipment. 1/10" scale can reduce efficiency 16%. If you don't have scale it may not save you anything, but what are the odds of no scale in a system?
Finally the people on this site are some of the highest quality persons I have dealt with in the industry for the past 33 years. Their ultimate goal is to make believers out of people like yourself and I appreciate both!!

R. Kalia

as i said...

I can detect a 2% changes in gas consumption easily. At this time of year I am using about 15 therms a day, and the meter can be read to 0.1 therms (which is better than 1%). Doing a wash/dry adds 0.3 therms so I have to keep track of those. Of course there's still some variability due to random factors like sunshine, but I track usage for a week and I can see any significant trends.

S Ebels

Anecdotal ? evidence

Or real fact from where the rubber meets the road?

Here's my take on it based on real world, my world, not someones lab. (I have a lab but all he does is eat and lay around)

My own house is set up as follows.
Basement and full two story totaling 3180 sq ft of conditioned space. Existing heating system when purchased through last winter was a 150Kbtu HB Smith atmospheric, driving 5 zones of baseboard at 190* plus an indirect water heater.

During the summer I made the following changes:

1. Ripped out the baseboard in the living room, tore up the carpet and pad and installed 475 sq ft of Stadler Climate Panel with 3/4" hardwood nailed over that. We hardly spent any time in there because it always felt cold due to lots of glass (128 sq ft total glass area)Even when we would set the T87 at 74-75*, the room was marginal comfortwise.

Now it runs 70-72* daytime and 66-68 at night with no indoor thermostat. It's maintaining temp solely on outdoor reset and what water temp the boiler control feeds it.

2.Removed baseboard from the Kitchen/dining room area, the master bedroom, the bathroom, laundry, entry and office and installed panel rads with individual TRV's.

3. Deep sixed the Smith and installed a Viessmann Vitola fired at 146Kbtu, with a Divicon mix setup for the hardwood and a 200 series controller to run the panel rads, DHW and the remaining zone of baseboard on the second floor of the house. The second level still has a T87 operating a zone valve for control. There is no thermostat in the main level or the finished basement.
Both heating circuits, high and low temp run off reset with no low limit. This boiler will take any return temp you throw at it.

Here's what happened.

Gas prices rose from last winter to the start of the heating season, (September) by 29% so all things being the same my gas bills should be running that amount higher than last year.

Degree days for this heating season in my location total 129 more to date than the same peiod last year. This would dictate that my gas bills would be higher also.

Guess what? They are higher, but not by the 30%+ that they should logically be. They are running a little over 12% up from last year.


So here's my summation.

Based on these facts, (yes facts) I have to say that a good boiler running on outdoor reset, and I mean direct, full, outdoor reset, does indeed make a difference in fuel usage. Especially when coupled with a good whole house control system.
BTW there is a huge difference in the efficiency factor of full, direct reset and reset that keeps the boiler hot and mixes down the water temp to the building. There is little to no efficiency gain unless the boiler directly sees the lower water temp.

Radiant floors do provide unmatched comfort. We now spend almost all our time in the formerly cool feeling living room. It is just plain toasty at air temps 2-3 degrees less than needed before.

Panel rads running on outdoor reset with TRV's provide darn close to the same level of comfort as the radiant floor does only without the toasty toe factor.

The Vitola has yet to see water temps above 165* and we have had quite a few days that hit design temp or less. This leads me to believe that over radiating and then dropping the system water temp is a good way to achieve a couple more points of system efficiency. In order to run low water temps directly to the boiler it must either be a condensing type boiler or the Vitola. There are no other boilers that I know of capable of digesting <90* return temps while providing 110-120* supply. This is in fact the temps I observed on this system in the fall of the past year.

Now, for the numbers part. Will this boiler and total system overhaul ever pay for itself in fuel savings alone. Maybe if I live to be 100 or if gas prices go to $3.00 a therm, I might see the actual cost returned in the form of energy savings. Does that make a difference to me? No. Do I care that the house feels wonderfully comfortable. YES! YES and again, I say YES!! Friend and other folks that have been in my home before ask how come it feels different. They ask why theirs doesn't feel that way. They notice that the temperature doesn't swing up and down. Those are the reasons I overhauled the system. Not primarily for energy savings. If I wanted to maximize the energy factor I would have gone with a condensing type boiler and saved an extra $100 a year on my gas bills. The one I have went in because I know it'll be around long after I'm gone and will require little maintenance along the way.

Like I said, no lab, just cold hard facts and numbers from my gas bills, my warm and toasty toes and Accuweather.com

Joe_13

Too many variables

and each system is different. Set back probably does little at only a 5 degree delta. You probably need at least 10 degrees for 10 hours or more to offset the energy cost to bring the heat back up. That 40 year old cast iron monster must have several hundred pounds of extra CI and water that has to heated each and every cycle. Large mass might be fine for the radiant floor but not for the boiler. All those extra BTU's being absorbed by the boiler will not help heat the indirect any faster and then just become stand by loss out the attached flue pipe. Condensing systems can only be a benefit to low temp radiant. Outdoor reset and modulation try to match the output to the load. A basic law of thermodynamics says anything more becomes waste, so there must me some saving in using these systems.

Ken_8

Your conclusion with regard to

a) is impossible. Sun loading, your location is not the same as the degree day data is flawed, or domestic hot water nuances are whacking out the data.

b) exact same response as a) above.

c) sounds okay.

d) the AFUE efficiency is hard data and can be banked on. As you already suggest - the anectodal stuff is junk, useless wannabe "data"

e) oudoor reset is a money saver. The cost of the control is very low - so dramatic (if not easily calcuable) savings based on parts needed - are real.

f) that may be true, but a bad condensing boiler will never go below 89% and the best non-condensing never better than 87. Those 60 days of bitter cold are more than offset by the 200 mid temps. Add domestic how water via an indirect and thee savings are huge!

g) True. The savings of a full mod burner are minimal. But when you are into a 50-500+ HP boiler, they are very significant.

h) Your 40-year old boiler has cost you enough in the last 10 years in wasted fuel to get a new system free. Add future savings and the fact that you are very lucky on the life of the existing unit, I wouldn't have much hope for the next 40.

But I hear your argument - and it holds some water! Why spend money now? Just get your ducks lined up in a row so when it DOES go bad - you know exactly what you want and can move quickly.

One last thing; 40 years ago when fuel was 9 cents a gallon and they'd give you S&H green stamps with every fill-up - a 20% savings was zip city. Now, with fuel in the buck-and-a-half range and gas about the same (and propane in outer space) the savings really add up!

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flange

i worked for a large controls manufacturer for many years. on of their biggest and best products was the energy retrofit. in short, we would install new boilers, tune up existing if new enough, change traps, update and calibrate controls etc. this in return for gauranteed energy savings. part of the deal was energy audits done quarterly. these projects for the most part actually saved more than anticipated. very rarely did a customer get a rebate. this stuff does definately work. no question. the problem is every situation is different. thats where the "up to" numbers come from. when i went on my own, the first project i worked on had fuel bills, #2 oil, which were 12-1300 per month. this was a house. new boiler, duel fuel gun. the first thing we did was to lower the steam pressure to 1.5 lbs. this saved slightly more than three hundred per month. the next thing we did was to get the old pneumatic day/night zone controls working again. utilizing a 1-1 ratio, in which the stats were setback one degree per hour of setback, we saved an additional 200 plus per month. there were two periods of setback per day. all systems are not equal, but energy savings can be achieved quite easily if approached in a reasonable manner.

R. Kalia

just as cheap today

> One last thing; 40 years ago when

> fuel was 9 cents a gallon and they'd give you S&H

> green stamps with every fill-up - a 20% savings

> was zip city. Now, with fuel in the

> buck-and-a-half range and gas about the same (and

> propane in outer space) the savings really add


I know they say that, but today's prices are in the same ballpark as 9 cents forty years ago, in real terms (inflation-adjusted).

I have to wonder why our ancestors (so to speak) were so cavalier about fuel. Maybe it because they didn't worry that the price would go up even more, as we do. Or maybe gas/oil heat was a relatively new luxury (see the post 'Dead men advertising'), and so they didn't mind paying a premium for it, the same way they paid huge amounts for tiny B&W TVs. But the real price of gasoline or natural gas wasn't so different then.

jerry scharf

the theory of setback

The rate of heatflow across a barrier is determined by two things, the temerature differential and the resistance to flow (R value.) The theory of setback is that by dropping the inside temperature, the differential to outside is reduced and that the heat flow. It's attractive because it costs you $50 put put in a setback thermostat. I'm guessing it might save more than that over 10 years, but it's not a big thing. In a farmhouse with uninsulated walls, it would save much more than your house and might reach the 1% per degree level mentioned.

The best money in a residential setting is insulation and sealing. This is increadibly well documented, both theoretically and experimentally. I came across someone who said that a 5% viod in insulation produces a 50% reduction in overall R value. I've never actually worked out, but it makes complete sense to me as a physicist. You have to be really exacting in insulation work to get the most of it.

If you can't find the savings to cover your caulk, you either have really cheap fuel, didn't get it quite right or there is something else is happening that isn't yet described. I mean this with no disrespect, but you can't throw out 25 years of solid work in this area because one uncontrolled experiment didn't get the expected results.

Commercial systems are much different animals, and they get excellent returns on upgraded systems, especially controls. It's a hard thing to sell when it's over 5 year payback and no go at 10 years, and this is a thriving business. They are continuously upgrading these systems, and you know it's not from "thinking green."

The returns on residential systems is slower, becuase the ratio of front costs to operating costs is higher. Look at the difference in cost from a 75K btu/hr boiler and a 1.5M btu/hr boiler including near boiler piping for both. The commercial system is more, but not even close to 20 times as much.

For me, I do think green, and am willing to invest beyond what can be demonstrated in a 10 year payback. ROI is not my motivation for doing this.

jerry

R. Kalia

Newton understood conduction

> The rate of heatflow across a barrier is

> determined by two things, the temerature

> differential and the resistance to flow ...

> In a farmhouse with uninsulated walls, it

> would save much more than your house and might

> reach the 1% per degree level mentioned.


If you're a physicist, you might know that both the rate of heat loss, and the drop in that rate due to setback, depend on the "resistance to flow". So if the savings are calculated on a percentage rather than absolute basis, it makes no difference whether it is an uninsulated farmhouse or Tyvek-sealed new construction.

\"Maine\" doug

This difficulty of the before and after comparisons

made it hard to point out the prime improver of my oil mileage as well.
I live in a Federal style brick building, approx. 44x40. The foundation is mortared granite slices and pieces, about 3 foot thick at the base on bedrock, tapering to 1 foot thick at the top. The foundation is completely underground on one side and partially underground on the other 3 sides.

The building has a basement with 4 2x4 foot windows and an attached sunroom that is 8x11 and starts at basement ground level and rises to 20 feet aboveground. It is not heated yet. The building walls are 3 course of brick, 12in total thickness with plaster walls and about 400 sq.ft of windows distributed on the east, south and west sides and 2 small windows and a door on the north side. The main floor is wood over concrete. The 14 foot ceiling has no insulation on it with a 4 foot space between the ceiling and flat roof. All the windows were single pane.

The last winter we ran the steam boiler with rads on only the main floor, and a mild winter it was, we burned 2600 gal till I stopped counting because it hurt. The friendly oil guy now and then came to fill the std. tank twice in the same month.

We did the following:
-Dug up the entire exterior foundation to the bedrock and waterproofed the granite and installed a drain field and 2 inch blueboard on the exterion foundation walls. In some cases that could not be done as the walls went below bedrock.
-Dug up the entire basement concrete floor and dug down 10 inches. Where we hit rock we drilled and jackhammered (there were some surprises). Installed a drain field in stone, vapor barrier, 2 inch foam board and poured a tinted concrete slab with radiant. 19 yards of concrete pumped in, that stuff is awful heavy.
-Installed thermopane windows all around with a new door in the north entrance, kept the single pane commercial door in the south side facing the water.
-Did not insulate the ceiling, it warms the roof and center roof drain so it was decided to have the space dry and warm enough for snow melt.
-Installed flat panel rads on the main floor, have only 3 connected. Originally was going to install 11, decided that 8 was enough and some day will get to the install the 5 that are sitting on the floor. (it got busy)
-Installed 2 x 80K Vega boilers with Beckett burners and vent kits whose name I forget but they (the vents)suck. Replaced the Becketts with Reillo's after the Becketts decided to be hard to light and always out of tune. Reillos are great (side comment). The vents are waiting to be replaced with our own design stainless when I have lost enough weight to fit into the 18 inch cavity behind the vault. Down 12 pounds since Jan so that project may get done this summer.
-Installed a 44 gallon Ergomax to increase boiler water content (only 4.5 per boiler)and generate enough hot water for the lady's huge clawfoot tub and for my stained glass shop needs.
-Installed tekmar VSI control for the basement floor and tekmmar "almost dual" boiler control. Would be more dual if it had 2 circ outputs for Pri/Sec piping and the delay for dual firing is not sufficiently adjustable. Will sell this control if you want it.
Note-- there is no thermostat in our basement apartment, I have to slightly tweek the tekmar in the tween seasons because we will have warm days but very cold nights. (someone needs to add an anticipating weather factor to offset the delay in the slab) ME, got this?? There is no thermostat on the main floor, I unplug the 007 at night. Someday we will have a control I keep saying.

Thermo loss in the boiler room is high (can you say pipe insulation) but the heat goes into the building so.....
The boiler control can do outdoor reset, at the moment it keeps the tank at 160* cause that's where I set it, so the boiler(s) come on to keep it there.

So what did all this get me? Aside from much grief from the lady that I had spent all the money and that she was not going to get her kitchen and that I had best stop reading all these Holohan books and stay off the Wall....
Well, the last two winters were a mite cold. Last winter it stayed below 0 for about 2 months and this winter looks the same.
I signed up for 1500 gallons of oil. The program started in Oct and ran to Apr end and I still had about 200 hundred gallons left last spring. It looks like it may be the same this winter so it looks like we more than halved our oil consumption.

Did the wee boilers and low 160* temps in the rads and radiant slab and nighttime setback on the main floor do it? Did the new windows and new door and foundation and slab insulation do it? I would like to think it took both changes to the building and heating plant but tend to favor the heating plant, most days only one of the little boilers is on since I shut down one till I get a better dual boiler control. And we are heating two floors now with the doors opening all the time on the main floor since it is my shop.
At least all the pipes and controls and wires and 007's look cool. Now if I were to do it again, we would change this circuit to......
Oh, we are, as old hippies are fond of doing, barefoot in the basement in -15* weather.

Mark Hunt

So we should just go back

to burning wood then?

Mr.Alpha, when you show me YOUR credentials, I'll show you mine.

(Warning! DO NOT bring a knife to a gun fight.)

It would be one thing to come here and ask an honest question, but to call us "Snake oil salesmen" and accuse us of fraud.

Tell me who you are and why I should believe YOUR findings.

When you do that sir, I will show you my proof.

TTFN!!

P.S. There is only ONE Alpha-Omega, and He was crucified and resurrected. Somehow I do not think you are Him.

Mark H

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Why is it

such loud squalking takes place over a $6,000 to $10,000 "appliance" that will perform flawlessly for 15 to 30 years while the same folks think nothing of spending $40,000 to $60,000 on an "appliance" that can barely go 10 years, requires constant maintenance and needs to be heavily insured?

No savings on using set-back? Humnnnn, the laws of physics must be in limbo once again. I'll need to toss out my manual J books and delete all of my computer heat loss/gain programs.

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Mark Hunt

AMEN!!!!!!!!


The jig is up PAH!

Initiate Plan "B" IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!

I'll meet you in Cancun!

Mark H

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Dave Yates (PAH)

and there

we will wile away the hours studying the effects of solar gain on ice laden beverages whilst contemplating the Delta-T's between shade vs sun.

Does a thong bikini inhibit or enhance Btu transfer?

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Mark Hunt

or


we will ignore all of that completely and just get drunk.

Tough call huh?

Til then!

Mark H

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leo g_82

don't

forget the delta P the next morning dave!

leo g

leo g_82

yeah,

but have you ever cruised for chicks with your boiler? :}

l g

Dave Yates (PAH)

well

No, but I've hatched lots of chicks with boilers we've installed.

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Alan R. Mercurio

Thank you Mark

for writing(P.S. There is only ONE Alpha-Omega, and He was crucified and resurrected. Somehow I do not think you are Him.)

Amen!

Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

Oil Tech Talk

jackchips_2

I don't

know about inhibiting, but it sure would raise my BTU level.

Anyone ever say you sure can write Pah?

Mark Hunt

God Bless you and keep you


Mr.Broome.

Still in my prayers sir.

Respectfully,

Mark H

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Btu level rising

Thanks pal.

Think about this....

A "regular" suit covers the bum. When one swims, it gets wet. As the wearer leaves the water, the 40X heat transfer rate of water over plain air accelerates Btu transference. Therefore, a thong conserves Btu's by exposing the skin to air, which dries much more quickly than does fabric. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that a thong is an energy conservation device.


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R. Kalia

> to burning wood then?

>

> Mr.Alpha, when you show

> me YOUR credentials, I'll show you

> mine.

>

> (Warning! DO NOT bring a knife to a gun

> fight.)

>

> It would be one thing to come here and

> ask an honest question, but to call us "Snake oil

> salesmen" and accuse us of fraud.

>

> Tell me who

> you are and why I should believe YOUR

> findings.

>

> When you do that sir, I will show

> you my proof.

>

> TTFN!!

>

> P.S. There is only

> ONE Alpha-Omega, and He was crucified and

> resurrected. Somehow I do not think you are

> Him.

>

> Mark H

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Mark Hunt

Uhhhhhhhh


You're NOT going to wear a thong are you?

Mark H

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Uni R

You know...

You know a threatening tone is totally uncalled for. This guy challenges the assumptions and assertions that get made on a regular basis in here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. As much as we'd love to see the boiler room's name changed to the art gallery, the vast majority of homeowners make their decisions based on investment principals and deserve factual information to make those decisions. The sad truth is that there is very little factual information out there on the points the gentleman raised.

Mark Hunt

No

The challenge was based on questionable test results.

Not just a challenge, but a judgement of Snake Oil salesmen, in essence, liars.

There are no threatening tones here. This poster said we are frauds. I am simply asking for credentials.

A blower door test was done. Fine. Guess what? I do blower door tests. I want to see the before and after numbers.

So far, all I get from the original post was that someone tried to do things themselves and didn't realize any savings. Is it possible that he/she did it wrong? Yet I am a Snake Oil salesman.

No. I am not.

When I get my answer, Alpha gets his/hers.

BTW, Where is nori parcs?

Respectfully,

Mark H



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Floyd_5

Then he should have had enough...

gumption to be able to post his/her real name in the first place.....the questions are valid if they come from a credible source.....this is a bag of hot air trying to make trouble....

Mark Eatherton1

Wrong thong...

Here's a snake oil salesman caught in Hawaii with HIS thong on...

ME

PS, This photo may offend you. If it does, I'm sorry. If you think you MAY be offended, DO NOT open the attached picture...

ME

Carl PE_2

physics

a) heat flow by conduction:

Q=(Wall Area x Temperature Difference)/"R" Value of wall

Setback stats save energy by raising or lowering the indoor temperature during unoccupied hours, thereby reducing temperature difference between inside and out.

Example: Summer day, 72º in, 95º out.

Temperature difference is 95-72=23º

if you set back 1º, 95-73=22º

savings = 1-(22/23)=4.3%

Please note that the savings are more dramatic in cooling mode than in heating, because the temp difference is smaller. However, any time you can reduce that dT, you're going to save some $. Your boiler or a/c has to do less work.

b) You failed to mention at what point in the system the water is 130º. Boiler supply? boiler return? zone setpoint?

Lower water temperatures through the boiler ARE more efficient. It's much easier to transfer heat to something that's cool than something that's hot.

c) True. The amount of btu's you have to put into the air are 1.085*cfm*(temperature difference).

d) There IS statistically significant information. Unfortunately, the guy you talked to probably doesn't have any of it. Get a 2nd opinion. Ask for references. Call them.

We put in high-efficiency equipment every day, and our customers are usually delighted. Sometimes they send copies of their utility bills.

e) Outdoor reset will save you some energy IF you have a system that is able to take advantage of it. With that old non-condensing boiler, you can only reset the temperature so low before you run into some rather serious problems.

f) Yes, it's more efficient. see (b).

g) A modulating burner will save energy because the boiler won't have to warm up every time there's a call for heat. it will continue to run, turning the burner up and down to match the heat load. With on-off controls, you have to use gas to heat up the boiler each time, then lose that heat up the flue when you shut it down. This adds up pretty quickly.

h) Cast iron is certainly old and reliable.

But before you run down the new stuff, see if you can find the paperwork on the boiler you have now and tell us what kind of warranty it came with. I'll bet it wasn't as good as what we're selling now.

The fact that it weighs 10x more does not make it any better or more reliable.

If you like, your local library can probably fix you up with some textbooks on hvac design, thermodynamics, and heat transfer. These will explain the mysteries of reset control, return temperature vs efficiency, cooling and heating loads, etc.

Perhaps it may be a little reckless to impugn an entire industry based on a couple measurements made in your basement.

S Ebels

Yep

What Alan and Mark said. Nuff said.

Dave Yates (PAH)

ditto

exactly what they said.

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S Ebels

Another angle to consider, for everyone

Think about what it is that we sell........

Do we sell cheap heat? Is that the main thrust of our efforts? You could go back and consider Mark H's post regarding burning wood. Certainly most everyone could burn wood. We could all live in 700 sq ft homes with a single wood stove for heating. Those of us in the country could use an outhouse and a shallow well pitcher pump or windmill for water. And who needs electricity if you do everything by hand. Use the wood stove for heating, cooking, warming water etc. Tough to beat that versatility.

None of todays technologies can compare with accomplishing the basics as cheaply as the above scenario. So if economy of operation is the only criteria that people use when making a decision regarding heating and plumbing, why do we have any work at all?

The answer lies in two words. Comfort and convenience. That my fellow Wallies is what we sell. The convenience of going to the t-stat on the wall and turning it up when you're cold or down when you're hot. Or better yet the convenience of never having to think about it because the heating system is so well designed that you never have to do anything to adjust it.The comfort that comes from knowing you have a system that will always keep you warm in the winter and cool in the summer as well as supplying any amount of hot water that you may need or even desire. The peace of mind that come from knowing your heating company installed very good quality equipment and did it right. Knowing that there will always be someone there that can service your system and maintain it properly and that those costs will be negligible over the life of the system because it was done right in the first place.

Those, my friends, are the things that we sell, not economy. Sure, people want to know what it costs to install and how efficient it is, but when it really comes down to it. Those two C words are what people are really purchasing.

If a $6,500 install will provide the same level of comfort that a $10,000 install will then you start to deal with what makes one worth more than the other. The economy and quality side of the equation often comes into play at this point. Here's where we earn our stripes as communicators of the what, why and how part of the job. If the customer decides he doesn't feel plan A is worth more than plan B, that's his choice. We shouldn't belittle him/her because they didn't select the absolute best equipment. It's a free country and they can spend their funds as they wish. Some folks just flat out don't care if they have the best, they just want the two C words and that's OK too.

Unknown

I find it interesting

that you have used "Alpha" THE BEGINNING and "Omega" THE END as a title. I may assume that means you feel your statements are the beginning and the end. Which is fine if you have that much confidence in yourself and your findings.

The term "snake oil" does not really fit the folks who post here on this sight. I have found from the host Dan Holohan and all others the highest degree of professionalism. Some here may be a little more passionate than others and get somewhat vocal when challenged, that is also okay as long as we are civil.

Much of what you have posted makes some sense and depending on the time, testing and equipment used the findings may vary. Efficiency many times is a difficult thing to pin down because of all the variables involved. We here on the Wall do our best to advise our customers based on what information we can compile on a given subject. What is so very interesting to me is that I can post a question and get so much help in such a short time. I would suggest from you perhaps a different approach to find answers to your concerns. Ask for help and we will give it, do not attack our integrity because some here will take you on and life is too short for that kind of thing. Let us have some open debate without accusing and we will all learn something.

I am a 64 year old man who has been in the business for over 40 years, I learn something new here every day. I have a motto for every day "Laugh a little, cry a little and learn a little every day" when you do that life gets good.

The title does seem a little disturbing for some of us who know that Jesus Christ in the Book of Revelation Chapter 1 verse 11 said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:". And in an earlier verse (verse 8) " I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending." That makes him the eternal one, the almighty, the everlasting God and saviour of all mankind. You may want to change your handle, but hey this is America and you can call your self what you will, you just have a lot to live up to with that handle.

You can know this we are a strong brother and sister hood here and when you are in the "HOOD" you must respect the others who dwell and visit here. We love you and welcome you to come and share and learn with us.