Boiler Pics, \"Usefull\" Advice Wanted

Climate Creator

Ok here is my first attempt at a primary secondary pumping system. I would like any comments on how to imprive on this either immediately or for next time. Some things like the Z-flex were done temporarily at the time of the pics (it was Cold in there!!) But seriously I respect your opinions and would appreciate any insight into any errors or better ideas you might see. Also what is the best way to wire the primary pump to operate?

Thanks,
Rich

Earthfire

Pump

Turn that top taco sideways

DanHolohan

Yes,

but looks good otherwise. Well done, Rich!

Climate Creator

yeah

I had another ifc pump there that was no good, It was 3am this morning when it was done and I just threw in that 007 regular for the night. Also though I seem to be getting gravity heating in the the zone WITH the IFC pump in it. This goes to the gravity mains. But if that was all you see I am glad. Also the regular 007 zone to the domestic would not heat unless the grundfos was set at 3? Any ideas on this

Mike Kraft_2

rich.............

whats the system running?Do you have the boiler jacket reinforced where the filter is?I do the same thing but use some extruded aluminum plates to give it more beef.If you cut and paste the link you will see the Taco recommendations for the pump install.

cheese

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Product_PDF/66.pdf

Climate Creator

Thanks

I have the lit on the pump, I just needed to get out of there. I will fix it today or tomarrow. What are you suggesting about the jacket? I am interested.

Thanks,
Rich

Mike Kraft_2

Rich

You're using a good filter.Also the mounting bracket which typically makes for a safe sturdy install.The oil flex line is applied so the boiler door can swing open to be cleaned with ease.

All this said I am asking if you reinforced the point of attachment for the oil filter?Many of the tubing manufacturers make extruded aluminum plates.Thermo-Fin,Wirsbo,RTI............I use left over pieces of this material and back up the boiler jacket with it to give the filter bracket some beef.Makes for a solid install.I screw it on the inside of the jacket.

So when you "spin and grin" you do'nt need to curse the loose screws:)

cheese

PS.........a vacuum gauge would be nice on the filter too

Climate Creator

Ok

I ordered it with the gauge, but "Big Surprise" it didn't come that way. Just another thing to add to my tiresome day. I like that Idea for the re-enforcement, do you mean those aluminum plates we use for staple ups? They seem kinda thin?

Rich

Joe_13

3-pass boilers

I was thinking of getting a Biasi or a Crown Freeport, but it looks like a pain piping the p/s, supply/return and the flue when everything hangs off the rear of the boiler. You packed a lot behind that boiler, nice job.

Floyd_5

Can't tell if the ball valves are ...

full port or not, but even so I would have not put them in between the tee's so that you could get the tee's closer together and with no restrictions between them.
You could have put the ball valves between the boiler drains and the tee and would have been able to purgew the system and not have the restriction.

I also like to isolate my pumps... makes replacing them much easier... just my preference.

Keep up the great work!!

Floyd

Robert O'Connor_7

DRIP?

Are you going back to install the drip required for that relief vave?? We had a neighbor, whos child was messing around. I think you can guess what happened. The code requires ALL relief valves to be piped within 6" of the floor. This is P/S though. nice pics..... boc

John Ruhnke1

Isolation...................................

Rich,

The way you piped it, you will add the head of the two pumps together, the Grundfos and the Taco. Remove the ballvalves in the middle and put the two tees as close together as possible. You want to isolate the two primary and secondary loops from one another. It has some isolation now because the tees are semi close together, but the closer together they are the better it will work.

JR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Climate Creator

The reason

I piped those valves in is because that is how it is in Dans books, which I have read, but this is why I have posted here, I want to learn from everyones experience and not just my own, is'nt that why we are all here? But really I was under the impression that as long as the tees were less than 12" apart it should work, and FP Ball valves allow me to force water through the loop for purging, but I could put 1 valve further down the line to do the same as the two I guess. Is there some kind of miniumum distance needed between the outlet of the primary pump and the first tee?

Rich

Climate Creator

Thanks


Yes I can change the pumps pretty quickly, the gravity zone is valved off and the indirect zone is low. I may go back and do what you said and remove those FP Ball Valves from between the tees but, it was how I was shown to do it. Also don't they provide a further way to balance the loops?
But this is good keep it coming!!!

Thanks,
Rich

Uni R

Tee Width

Depends on the diameter. I think most would recommend no wider than 4 diameters. Nice work on all your joints.

Climate Creator

yes

I will be piping the vents for both the relief valve and the backflo when I replace that flue pipe and the 007, among other things. If anyone else cares I use 7/8 compression on my relief valve vents, it makes the removal so much easier, and I wish everyone did it. Also 5/8 compression on the backflo. It's a lot easier to change them out the way.

Thanks,
Rich

Climate Creator

Internal Flo Checks

Does anyone know if those IFC pumps maybe don't check the flow as well as a traditional flo-check does? I have some gravity heating issues and the gravity loop backing up the return side where there is nothing. Does this mean I need to add a sweat-check here? If so, why waste the extra money on the IFC Pumps? I never had this trouble piping the traditional return pumping with flo-checks on the supply.

Thanks,
Rich

DanHolohan

The full-port ball valves

make filling the system with water so much easier, and since they're full-port valves they don't add to the pressure drop.

Floyd_5

Take a look at this....

the secondary pump is "pulling" from the close tee's instead of pushing..... the primary pumps are totally disconnected from the secondary loop by way of the close tee's....I did put a valve between the tee's but have since found out that it isn't neccesary, espec. if using a Vortech or Spirovent, they work so well that purging becomes almost optional.....
I think with this set up you will have less problem with ghost flow because you are pulling the water off of the negative side of the secondary pump.

Hey, I'm still learnin' too!!!!

No pain, No gain!!!! play with things and see what works for you....

Floyd

Climate Creator

Ok lets work with this

I thought the "idea" both in "pumping away" and "primary secondary made easy" was to pump TOWARDS the secondary loops? I read siggys? article also, they do differ somewhat but, the general ideas are the same. the picture you showed me has the circ AFTER the loops. Were you saying you don't do it that way anymore or are you saying you found it to better this way?

Thanks for everything!!
Rich

DanHolohan

The goal

is to pump away from the point of no pressure change (the compression tank). The tank should be in the primary circuit, with that circulator pumping away from it. The secondary circuits see the common piping as their compression tank, so on the secondary circuits, you pump away from the piping that's common to both the primary and secondary circuits. In other words, the two, closely spaced tees.

Climate Creator

So then did I

Score?

Touchdown, or field goal?

Rich

DanHolohan

Seven

points!

Climate Creator

Hooray!!!!

But I still don't know how else to wire it without using two more relays(primary pump to run when either or both of the others are running), maybe I'm just still too tired to think straight? Who would be the person to clear that up I wonder?

Thanks,
Rich

kevin coppinger_4

I think its the Taco....

IFC's I have had a bit of a problem w/ a few 007....Grundfos has been doing it longer and I am much more satisfied w/ the 15-58 vs. the 007. The 15-58 also come w/ 3 sd.... something that you might want to have in a gravity conversion system. kpc

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

John Ruhnke1

Tekmar says...........................

Rich,

Tekmar says that they want the tees as close together as possible with a maximum of 4 pipe diameters. A ballvalve offers some resistance. True you have less resistance from a full port vrs a non full port valve. I would subjract a little for the full port valve maybe 1 pipe diamter? I am guessing though. It depends on the situation and pumps being used. The primary pump is the key. If you use a flat curve pump such as a Taco 007 or 0010 you would have a much wider margin of error then a high head Taco 008 or 009. You also have to worry about heat migration, but a simple flow check should solve that problem.

Now I have read that in a monoflo system they want 12" spacing or more to create a pressure differencial. So 12" is to far to put the tees apart on a primary secondary piping arangment. A pressure differencial is what you are trying to avoid.

I say the best thing to do is try it and test it in the field. Field results are more important then what any book says. Books are a fail safe guideline.

Get a contact thermometer and measure delta tees and temperatures in different spots and at differant times. Monitor many jobs, after a while you will see a pattern develop, learn from this patern.

JR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Climate Creator

Good Idea

I will try that (delta t monitoring). I noticed you're here in CT with me huh?

Thanks,
Rich

Climate Creator

I agree

The Grundos also has the check right where you can see it. The guy working with me asked why you could'nt see the ones in the Tacos, and I did'nt have an answer for him. I do like the 3 Speed though. You could carry this pump on your truck as a good replacement for many pumps, plus on an overheating call you could swap the circ and open the old flo-check and leave it (assuming conditions warrant this) it's a pretty cool little pump. (Matches the Biasi color too!!!)

Thanks,
Rich

Floyd_5

I say three points...

I have to disagree with Dan, at least partially.... be the water....yes you should pump away from the PONC....however you should also be pumping away from the closely spaced tee's.....you want to have them on the suction side of the pump rather than the head side.... you want to make it the least likely for the water to choose the tee's as their course of direction as possible.
The water should want to slide right on by the tee's....until the pump comes on and invites the water to come on in.....

Now as far as the wiring goes....

The simplest way to wire....is to get a Taco SR502 relay... wire the pumps and t-stats to that, then wire the boiler to the XX terminals to fire the boiler when ever there is a call for heat....then let the boiler bring on the boiler loop pump.

Hope I ain't cornfusing ya more.....

Floyd

Climate Creator

So we all agree to disagree?

No problem, It gives us all something to think about, and this is how innovations come about. On the wiring I have a Taco SR503 relay, I wired it to the x term to fire when the burner fires but the pump was shutting off when the burner reached limit so I wired it constant for now. It was late then so our thinking was clouded, but now I see that a few changes in the wiring and all will be well.

I really can't thank you guys enough for your input, there are still a few out there that I expected to hear from and have'nt as of yet.

Thank You for helping me, help myself.

Rich

clammy

steel on water feed

The picture was quite large really didn,t look at the p/s piping but the one thing that caught my eyes where those steel nipples on the water feed assemble and that iron body watts water feeder .I always use brass nipples and a ball valve after it to make changing that water feeder a breeze.I,ve found that the steel pipe nipples tend to form rust and clog those watts feeders i also tend to use b& g brass water feeder they have a screen and tend to not get clogged as fast as the watts but they do cost a bit more then the watts units just saying what isee good luck and peace

Climate Creator

Thanks

>The picture was quite large really didn,t look at the p/s >piping

I use internet explorer 6.0 and it auto sizes the pics, I wish you could have seen it I like the input.


>the one thing that caught my eyes where those steel >nipples on the water feed assemble and that iron body >watts water feeder .I always use brass nipples and a ball >valve after it to make changing that water feeder a >breeze.

I used to use a lot of valves but now I put the right valves in the right places and don't have valve off everything, I used to even put a valve on the expansion tank for quicker changing.

>I,ve found that the steel pipe nipples tend to form rust >and clog those watts feeders i also tend to use b& g brass >water feeder they have a screen and tend to not get >clogged as fast as the watts but they do cost a bit more >then the watts units just saying what isee

As for the iron nipples they are AFTER the feeder much like the rest of the black pipe, I get your drift though those feeders to plug up but they have the nicest fast fill feature and when using the 9D also the nuts and gaskets are interchangeable so I only need carry some gaskets that fit both units also the threaded and sweat adaptors are interchangeable.

Thank you for your feedback, it helps

Rich

clammy

about that filter

I know alot of guy use those ben gar filter i'm not to much a lover of them you really can,t tell what your getting out of the tank at least with a general you can chk the filter and see like sluge or may be some tell tale signs of water in the tank rust ect.i forgot to post that before as with the piping i'm a all steel guy to i do all my boiler in steelup to my pumps i usally use die electric fitting on all my own stuff but where i work now they won't go for it they just want male adpts.Sometimes ya gotta do like the owners want and they want to save money me on the other hand i don't want to go back for something stupid.I also always make manifolds and pipe everything to a wall as to keep everything uncluttered .I've found that just about every jobs piping has different challenges the appear and you can't make one manifold for all jobs they all have some unique things happening ,also on another note i've never used ifc pumps i know they save time and space but besides that i'm afraid some one else might change the pump get gravity flow then start changing piping to correct it i just stick with b&g flow chks they may take up space but then i don't worry about the future mis instalation of replacement pumps good luck and peace

Arthur

Xtank

Main problem which sticks out is the Xtank is to close, If you could drop the tank down to floor level you would have longer distance from the hot water to the tank. Hot water getting into the tank will stuff them up. Which maybe why you guys seem to have so many problems wuth Xtanks. tanks should always have a heat loop to stop this.

Arthur

Xtank

Main problem which sticks out is the Xtank is to close, If you could drop the tank down to floor level you would have longer distance from the hot water to the tank. Hot water getting into the tank will stuff them up. Which maybe why you guys seem to have so many problems wuth Xtanks. tanks should always have a heat loop to stop this.

ScottMP

Floyd

Your tee's don't look that close together in the photo. Am I wrong ?

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Ken_8

What I especially like

is the length of the suction side pipe to each circulator! Bravo!! I have seen tons of pictures of the most awesome layouts - and no one ever criticizes the lack of proper pipe length feeding the suction side of the pump! Looking good is important, following manufacturers' installation parameters is even more important than looks.

Nice job.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Floyd_5

Your right, Scott...

Like I said... if I were to do that installation again I would take the ball valve out of theat loop and move it to the return header, then close up the tee's more. That being said, this installation does work very well. I think that the important thing to consider is to keep the tee's between the PONC and the pump....also when you have multiple zones I like to run supply and return headers off of the tee's so that I get the same water temp. for all the zones. Have tried it many ways and this seems to work best for me....

Floyd

ScottMP

SO what is the proper length

I actually am not aware of this subject. Ken what is this in reference too ? It appears in the photo that there is very little distance on the suction side on one circulator from the ell.

More info please

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Climate Creator

Thanks

Function becomes form, form becomes beauty!

Rich

Climate Creator

I am not quite sure

what you mean, but I do not have any problems with expansion tanks here as long as they are sized correctly and not anything other than an EXTROL.

Thanks,
Rich