munchkin 140 quote $8500, reasonable?

Floyd_5

The feeling I got ....

and the reason that I got a bit sarcastic, was that Chuckles had no intention of finding "Value" he only wanted to justify what he already had in his mind that he wanted to do. Yeah, he was riding the fence a bit but really has NO intention of spending 8 grand on a boiler and thought that it was highway robbery that anyone should even propose such a preposterous figure for a measly little boiler change out......
Dan, the respect goes both ways.
We in the field, trying to make a buck, only to get hammered by the customers continually whineing, fussing, and generally trying to tell us that any old fool can do that, are sick and tried of getting put down after going to all the exspense, pain, and agrivation to rise above the butt crack image that has dogged the industry for so long!!!!!
You CANNOT show VALUE to a the man with tunnel vision.....
The other problem is the media through which we are t rying to communicate....I feel that if I could talk with Chuckles one on one and be able to relay the passion that I have about the high eff. boilers and the many benifits of having and owning one, the concerns that I have about the fuel prices of the future..etc.. etc... then it would be much easier to get the "value" concept across....
Not all of us are gifted writers and the challenge of trying to help someone or persuade them through this board becomes extremely challenging and frustrating also.... then it comes out or comes across in ways that are taken way differently then they were intended.

Wow, okay I got that off my chest.....agree or disagree I will NOT be offended if you voice your opinion.....

I have mine, your allowed to have yours.....

Floyd

DanHolohan

I'm not seeing

in his posts all these things you're saying here, Floyd. How is he showing disrespect by asking for a second opinion?

I cleaned up your post a bit. Thanks for your understanding on that. Heat of the moment.

Mike camperlengo

Read the original threads

This guy asked two simple questions and still didn't get an answer. He wanted to know if the price was reasonable because he had nothing to compare it to. Secondly he wanted to know if all things considered he might be better off with a less expensive product and installation. Both fair questions why doesn't someone give him an answer?

Chuckles

I am not bothered by the tone of some posts. I expected that there would be some hostility when price was mentioned; some contractors (not just in this field) feel that customers should pay whatever they are told to pay. The first line of my first post indicates that I was prepared for this! I have gotten many helpful responses, however, including some by e-mail.

I do realize that it takes a certain personality to make money one sale at a time; I probably wouldn't be good at it, so I can certainly understand that some people might get sick of it at times. Since they can't let the frustrations show to their actual customers, the net is a good place to vent.

Personally I am happy to pay for value...if I can see it.

As far as I can tell so far, a condensing/modulating boiler is like a Ferrari. You have to make your decision to buy on the basis of intangibles. If you measure value by whether it is cost-effective, you can't afford it.

RW

fascinating thread

I can sympathize with chuckles, back in early Dec I posted about the $12k bid I got to replace my boiler.
I got some replies that pretty much said " you outta be happy to pay that 'cause a good steam man is worth every penny of whatever he wants to charge" I got some email responses that were a little kinder, and more helpful. The bottom line is that $$ is a very sensitive subject here, and if you're a HO looking for a little information, don't be too thin skinned ;-) .

By the way, I'm waiting 'til the end of the heating season, to get some more bids, and I plan on talking to two other HO's on my street that had new boilers installed in the past couple of years, and if I can, look at their installations.

heatboy

Yes and Yes.

It's certainly a fair price for what it takes to install something like the Munchkin.

Is it the best option? Hard to tell since none of us have seen the mechanical room in question.

This really isn't fair to this contractor. Is it his fault there are no other progressive contractors in his area? Maybe, just maybe, the wholesaler feels this is simply the best guy to install this particular piece of equipment so he doesn't have all of the crap that would happen if someone else put this in.

Like I said, we aren't there. Anyone one of us could be the next guy to be ripped about our price.

hb

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Ahmen to that!

Ditto

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John Ruhnke1

Go with a heavy solid cast iron boiler.............

Hi Everyone,

In my opinion, I am going to talk about what I think is a good boiler. Try a Buderus. I love them, they are more efficient then the American counterparts. Don't get me wrong, I think Munskin is a great boiler, But it relies on condensing to acheive its fuel savings. Unless the job is radiant you won't see temps low enough to condense. Go with the Logomatic out door reset control on the buderus. Fuel savings is one part of the equation. Longevity is another factor, 30 years for the Buderus versus 15 years on the Munskin. The parts on the Buderus are all universal and last along time. Easy to find at the local supply house. A good contractor is important to reduce the service costs. With the wrong contractor you can easily spend $1000 a year repairing things and maybe $3000 to repipe right. $3500 is way to low for a WeilMcLain change out. I would not trust that guy. WE get $5000. $8000 is a average price for a Buderus and a Logomatic. $8000 sounds right for the Munskin. These are all total guess's though. Would have to see the job.

JR

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Gregg Jackson

other thoughts.....

I am not sure if anyone else addressed the issue of whether or not the system will run at condensing temperatures.

I have found that many homes are over radiated and can stand to be run at lower supply temps which will justify using a condensing boiler. I know it's a cliche, but a good heatloss and a correctly sized boiler can make a huge difference in savings.

The one major factor that may warrant a munchkin (outside of condensing capabilities) is the fact that it has a modulating gas burner. This (in laymans terms) means that your boiler is always firing at a rate that is somewhat matched to the outdoor conditions. I have found that many times boilers are way oversized and proper sizing will help with your fuel bills. If your system is capable of running at lower temps, this is just another step towards higher efficiencies.

You should remember that there is maintenance that goes along with this " new technology". Proper cleaning and tune-ups keep the boiler running correctly and prolong the systems life expectancy.

I have yet to see many home applications where the replacement of the boiler will be justified by immediate (2-5 year) fuel savings. You can gain the benefits of new and reliable equipment and hopefully an increase in overall comfort from your heating system.

Hopefully you can see past the large difference in price and get enough information to choose which system will give you the best mileage for your money and provide the highest level of comfort.


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Michael_11

Munchkin

homeowner,
please get at least two more quotes and ask these contractors if a condensing boiler is what you need. Are you resetting your water temp in any way or always keeping a hot loop. Is your system in need of high temp to properly heat the home. I was a partner in American Hydronics [munchkin rep chicago] and there are a variety of prices in the marketplace, but you must know which boiler suits your application and do not go by a name or STATED EFFICIENCY. Each system is different and payback will be determined by this.
Good Luck Michael

Brian_19

too low???

Who says 3500 is way too low. When someone post a price they think may be a bit high all you guys get defensive. You say we should not talk price because every job is different, but when a price you see as too low is posted there seems to be no problem in stating your opinion.
John according to your post the best contractor must be the one with the highest price. Who are you to judge some ones knowledge based on the price they quoted.
I have done simple hot water boiler change outs for $3500.00 and have made money. Yes I do change all of the components near the boiler, fill valve, expansion tank, etc.
I always do business as if I were looking through the eyes of the consumer. Price is a big deal to consumers and it should be. Lets not get bent out of shape if its questioned.

steve_26

condensing boiler

Installed properly,these boilers will produce for you.
savings and comfort..
I recently visited one of my clients last thursday 15th.
We installed a Viessmann Vitodens last march.We had replaced an old american standard.
He gave me a print out of his gas usage in (therms)from 2000
to Dec 04. went from 1830 to 1039 in 04...not bad savings and no loss of comfort..and that's with a boiler that likes to see low temps, installed on baseboard...you can.t even hear the boiler running....

steve

hr

The question is not answer-able

in a www.com format At least in my opinion. The price could be a bargin, or it could be a bit high.

A ethicial contractor would need to see the job, and put in some hours to calculate and design the job. Again in my opinion.

Be leary of any Internet price, regardless of the product, at least when it comes to hydronics.

Keep in mind IF the street price for just the boiler is 3 grand, and the contractor puts a mark up on that and all the other components, pumps, controls, etc.

Then in fact with tax and mark up you could have, easily 4 G's in parts??

Then how many days of labor. Not unreasonable to expect a grand a day for a contractor. I'd do it my rate of $2.00 per minute Labor can add up quickly, not to mention drive time if it involves numerous trips.

I, too, understand the frustration of not being able to gather a number of bids. Chances are each contractor would have a different "favorite package" anyways. And you'd be hard pressed to get apples to apples bids form 6 contractors. Unless of course you hire a design engineer to spec out the entire project for bids. Along the lines of commercial work where we all bid the exact same plans and spec sheets.

Tough decision to make, wish there were a simple answer.

hot rod

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Chuckles

> Installed properly,these boilers will produce for

> you. savings and comfort.. I recently visited

> one of my clients last thursday 15th. We

> installed a Viessmann Vitodens last march.We had

> replaced an old american standard. He gave me a

> print out of his gas usage in (therms)from

> 2000 to Dec 04. went from 1830 to 1039 in

> 04...not bad savings and no loss of comfort..and

> that's with a boiler that likes to see low temps,

> installed on baseboard...you can.t even hear the

> boiler running....

>

> steve

Paul Mitchell

my two cents on this is

that you need more quotes. Then try and narrow them down and make sure you have apples to apples. If you do and prices vary widely you have to check some referances. Speek to other customers etc. The supply house should give you more names..ifthey cant or wont that would bother me enough to look at other options. Try Energy Kinetics for one. Plus the others mentioned on this long post.
Just because this contractor is listed as there guy..doesnt mean he has ever put any in. He could just be the only one in the area willing to try.
Good Luck

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Mad Dog

Well! Is it fair that he may be the only competent

contractor in the area that can properly install the Munchkin? Maybe the man has done his homework, taken his Munchkin seminars at the factory, and has no competition in his arena. Its not his fault that other contractors in that region may be incapable. That is Free-wheeling Capitalism my friend - at its best. Mad Dog

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John Ruhnke1

First Off...............

Brian,

I never said posting prices is bad, that is someone elses rules not mine. $5000 is good for me, someone else might be higher or lower. It depends on there break even number and profit numnbers. If a guy's price is really low it means one of the following,

A) The Contractor takes a lot of short cuts, puts in the boiler fastest possible, doesn't do a very good job and that is why he is so cheap. The client thinks he is saving money but in reality, the client gets ripped off down the line with excessive repair and fuel bills.

The Contractor is naive in bussiness knowledge or has a lack of confidence in his salesmenship skills. The average construction business earns 2% profit. The average business earns 9% profit. McDonolds earns 25% profit. A well run construction business earns 10% profit. Profit is calculated after you draw your salery. If you don't know what I am talking about or don't know what a break even number is then you are naive in business. The Contractor rips himself off. Often if the Contractor is not smart enough to learn how to properly run his business, then he is not smart enough to properly install equipment. Unless he is new in business. Actually he must be new in business because he won't last long when he starts to run out of money in lean times.

C) Just plain dumb!!!

I have been in business for over 13 years, when I was just starting out, I was just plain dumb. I learned a little and became Niave. Now that I have learned a lot, I realized there is a whole lot that I don't know, but at least I am a little smarter now.

JR





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Brian_19

John, you still can't say that anyone who bids below your price is incompetent. That is still what your saying in your post again. I have done hot water boiler installs for 3,500.00 and I have made money on them. Just like some jobs are difficult and complex some may be simple and easy.
As an example I recently replaced a small 4 section hot water gas boiler, single zone, vented to chimney. Material was just under 2,000.00 for a Burnham boiler and new accessories. That leaves 1500.00 in labor. This install was done in one day. Everything was done correctly and neat. There were no short cuts, sloppy piping, or poor quality material. Now I don't no about you but my business can survive quite well on 1500.00 per day. If you still think this can't be done I will be happy to post a break down of materials.
Some of us choose to run our business with low overhead so maybe we don't have to get 5000.00 to cover our costs, but that does not mean we are not skilled enough to install a boiler. I know it works for me we have been in business since 1928.

Eric

Define the scope of Work

Do any of contractors walk into a car dealship and pay sticker price on your Work Rig. Probably Not.

We all spend time for business developement and spending time for free to put together a proposal is a fact of life. Even for us Engineers.

My opionion is to compare apples to apples. Its that simple.

If you want to compare then you need to give direction to define the scope of work. DEFINE THE SCOPE OF WORK!

How many zones? zone valves or pumps, outside air reset, condensing, non-condensing, combustion air upgrades, testing, warantee, ect, ect, ect.

Then contractors can give you a fair price for the same work. Better Yet pay someone to help you define the scope or do your homework. Just like buying a car. Do you want the heated leather seats....

John Ruhnke1

Low Overhead? wrong your overhead is very high......

Brian,

Thinking that you have a low overhead is a sure sign of future failer. I know plenty of people out of business that were busy all the time and said they had a low overhead. They worked all day and night plus weekends too. The average corperate client of yours works 40 hours a week, has paid for health care and retirement funds, paid holidays, sick days and vacation days. Puts away for there kids college education, owns a nice home. A one man truck has a much higher overhead then the bigger shops. Do the math and you will see what I mean. How many kids do you have? Do you want to send them to college? Do you put money away every year for retirement? Do you carry good health insurance? Do you own a nice home? We are profesionals just as good as every other professional. The trick is not to stay busy but to turn a profit. 9 out of 10 business's fail. And stop putting words in my mouth, I don't like it. I never said "anyone who bids below my price is incompetent".

JR


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John Ruhnke1

If you have employees.......................

Do you treat them like the professionals that they are?

JR

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steve_26

education

We need to do a better job educating the public on why we have to charge what we do for jobs..
You guys out here that carry all the insurance's know.
truck cost's,from maintenance to gas prices.
employee benny's and decent wages.

The public has no idea what it cost us to open our doors every morning to service our communities and help them in need..we need to to do a better job when marketing.show them facts and figures with proposals..just a thought.

steve

Mark J Strawcutter

humble?

Humble, place themselves in the HO's shoes, and do what? Price themselves lower than they're worth because the HO overextended himself purchasing the home?

Mark (just a HO)

Dan M

fun

.....in corner #1 we have Homeowner .....in corner #2 we have irratated PRO ..Yea.......Haaa... when I saw that first post I new I would be in for a couple of days good reading.This is almost as good as that $50 plunge job for a neighbor( That was a real lightning rod). When a HO ask about "cost" something usually hits the fan. As a home owner and engineer I read this sight all day long and have learned tons . The best part about it is that some kind soul always helps and there is for the most part a happy ending.

Ps
This is a example of what puts Holohan on top. He seems to understand more than anyone that its not all about pipes and BTUs, it's about the inneraction of diverse groups of people. He knows just when to step in and referee and when to let it roll

excellant job

Mad Dog

I hear ya Jim, but you would be shocked to see

the actual figures on Liability, Health Benefits, and THE WORST OF ALLL!!!!!! WORKMAN"S COMP!!!! As the other guys have said, you have to get several quotes from legit companies. Speaking of which, i'm not sure where we stand. The last 2 weeks have been crazy with frozen pipes and no heats. Now our computer is down too. Give us a call if you still need a quote. 516 358-2835 Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Wow! Strawcutter, I was wrong about you, boy

or are you just pulling out collective leg? Mad Dog

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Mark J Strawcutter

If I was

I'd have ended the statement with a :-)

Are you still thinking about my postition on "punitive pricing"? If so, I stand by that position and don't think it's in any way inconsistent with what I just wrote above.

Mark

PS - it was interesting to note in Dan's PM column that one of the "100 reasons" was that they don't charge more because the job is in a nice neighborhood.

Mad Dog

Yeah, I was referring to that, but if you recall

I never "punish" anyone for being rich, poor. Irish or Italian - ONLY FOR Giving me the runaround or "using" me for my knowledge, or taking advantage of my good nature(that's right I am very good natured until provoked....much like that other doggie The Great Irish Wolfhound: "GENTLE WHEN STROKED>>>FIERCE WHEN PROVOKED.") I also have a very long fuse and tend to let people get a few over on me before I snap. Hey, we can't can't agree on everything, right? Your MAD DOG in THE InDUSTRY

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Brian_19

expertise

John
On your original post you said "$3500 is way to low for a WeilMcLain change out. I would not trust that guy". In your second post you said "Often if the Contractor is not smart enough to learn how to properly run his business, then he is not smart enough to properly install equipment". That is two negative comments you made.
Well, that guy may be me and I don't like that. That is why I posted my last hot water change out. I wanted to show you that some contractors can make money at $3500.00. Once again what you charge is your business, I don't care. However, don't try to judge my expertise base on a price quote you may think is too low.

Brian_19

expertise

John,
On your original post you said "$3500 is way to low for a WeilMcLain change out. I would not trust that guy". In your second post you said "Often if the Contractor is not smart enough to learn how to properly run his business, then he is not smart enough to properly install equipment". That is two negative comments you made.
Well, that guy may be me and I don't like that. That is why I posted my last hot water change out. I wanted to show you that some contractors can make money at $3500.00. Once again what you charge is your business, I don't care. However, don't try to judge my expertise base on a price quote you may think is too low.

John Ruhnke1

Why are you intent on cornering me...........

You are talking yourself into believing a bunch of crap. 90% of the installers out there under estimate the time it takes to do the job. If you track it then you know it, you don't track it or else youy would not be feeding me your crap. If you bid 2 men 8 hours to do a boiler change out you are kidding yourself. You are supposed to price a project based on an averege job, not a fast job. You are supposed to know the average. Figured into the average is all those problem jobs that you had. Yes in my opinion you can't bid 8 hours for a boiler change out. The way you do business I know you never have kept track of time spent towards your projects. What is your break even number? What is the average time spent towards, not at your boiler jobs?

Yes I used to do a boiler job in 1 day with my helper. It now takes us two days. There is a big diference in quality between a one day boiler job and a two day boiler job. If I expect to do my boiler job in two days, I price it more because sometimes we have complications. I track and I keep on my average of $80.00 per hour per mechanic. At the end of the year this year I will average $80.00 per hour, and you know what? THAT IS STILL WAY TO LOW!!! I have friends in business that lose money at $250 an hour. YES LOSE MONEY!! They average $300 an hour to cover there overhead and profit. There is no way your 1 day job is half as good as mine. The fact that you keep arguing with me shows me how niave you are. Now go out there and take some plumbing business class's and learn how to run a business.

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DanHolohan

Lads,

please take this conversation to email. Thank you.

Riles_3

I actually stood up and clapped.....

Yes, this response warranted a "Standing Ovation".

Perfectly stated, an instant classic, I shipped this over to the archives.

Well done Steve.

Riles

DanHolohan

Agreed

And, taken together with Dave's repsonse, it makes an excellent case for contractors to become proficient at marketing themselves and their companies. How is the homeowner to know who is the true professional.

Anyone care to Get Listed?

Jim_44

overextended?

Dear Mark, I dont know how you purchased your house but I would bet that you "overextended" yourself also. The majority of people I talk to have the same story. Most of them bought their house with the skin on their teeth. Dont tell me you were not thinking of how you were going to pay the mortgage every month when you were sitting at the lawyers office signing off those checks. Then again you might have have inhereted yours or its paid off allready thats why you are out of touch with the regular joe HO. What i said on my earlier post cocerning bids was "reasonable price". Give the homeowner a reasonable price. Most of us know the prices of material. If you think the bid i got from my first contractor is reasonable I really dont know what to say to you other than I would not call you up for an estimate on my boiler install no matter how good everyone tells me you are. Jim

munchkin-man

There is no support when bought on line from the seller

they tell the buyer to call tech suppor, the consumer is left to fend for them selves and we get the when they are in trouble. We end up having to spend counless hours with the consumer who has not a clue what we are attempting to learn about the install. My views buy it from a contractor who knows the system so you have local support.

munchkin-man

Thanks to all for your support