munchkin 140 quote $8500, reasonable?

Jim_44

Dan. you are quite correct about homeowners visiting this site. I have turned on many friends to this site and I know they check it out. There are alot of HO in my area that need to upgrade their heating systems. This is because many houses have changed hands in the past 5 years and most of them have the original inefficient heating systems. The original HO's are usually elderly and never upgraded their system. I am a HO who will be upgrading my system and allready I am perplexed at the first bid I received for a simple no frill install. I dont mind paying, But I want value for my dollar. I figured out that the material/products will cost $3000 and thats on the high end and the price I got from this Company was $9700. Again this is a no frills install. So this Company wants $6700 to install that would take 3 or 4 days to do. I just dont see it. I know all about insurance, labor and the other 10 costs but as a HO I dont want to get ripped off. Sure the guy should make his money but be reasonable. A lot of homeowners just like myself are just getting by after paying their mortgage that is why Home Depot is so busy with all these DIY"s.
Chulkles just wants a REASONABLE PRICE for an install that is done correctly. He is not asking much.
Finding a reasonable contractor is hard to find. Many pros on this site give the impression that you must pay thru the nose for a boiler install. Instead they should put themselves in the HO shoes and be humble and understanding when the HO has to spend $10,000 to heat his home when he doesnt have a pot to P_ss in.
I just wanted to get this off my chest. I know I will probably get a lot of putdowns etc. but i can take it as well as dish it out so if anyone on the wall replies I will not be offended at all.
thanks
JIM

Chuckles

Munchkin 140 over $8000 reasonable?

I know this board is mostly for professionals, and I may not get any sympathy for seeking a low price. On the other hand I know you guys are Munchkin fans...maybe price is a barrier to greater market penetration?

I can only find one company in my area who has ever installed Munchkins, and they quoted over $8000 to replace an old cast-iron boiler, 2 zones of heat, nothing else unusual. This does not compute; I have a bill of maybe $1600-1800 per year, based on how much I'd save per year it is much better to keep the old one going until it explodes.

Is this a typical price, or should I keep looking for another contractor?

[Deleted User]

replacing boilers isn't cheap..

its not like replacing a waterheater...

jim lockard

explodes

Chuck- We are all some what clueless until you get in the basement, price the job write the contract and be willing to do the job.
Sounds like this poster needs to get a few more quotes.
Best Wishes J.Lockard

Chuckles

I have a quote for a new cast-iron boiler at under $4000; that's not like installing a water heater either, or is it?

I do realize that the Munchkin needs some additional plumbing and PVC; I also realize the unit itself is significantly more expensive. I can buy the boiler by mail order from http://www.spnwonline.com/default.asp for $3000. (I am NOT going to do this! But no doubt an HVAC contractor pays less than that.)

So it seems to me that a total cost of ~$2000 more than installing a cast iron boiler might be reasonable, but >$4000 is not...am I clueless here?

Chuckles

RE the deleted post that said "Exploding boiler=priceless":

I am getting a new boiler in any case. But I do want the Munchkin or I would not be posting at all. Should I pay twice as much for a small increase in efficiency and newer technology?

Chuckles

I would love to get more quotes. The distributor will give me only one installer name. Apparently there is a local monopoly. Anyway, I will stop posting, thanks guys.

Steve Eayrs

Keep in mind that the boiler is only the largest component in the system, and not your only material cost. How about the dhw tank?, heat exchnager?, pumps, valves, and on and on.......The labor is something I don' think anyone here could quote without looking at your system, but you seldom have less than 30-40 man hours by the time the new ones all hooked up wired, and running right.
The Munchkin is not the most expensive or the cheapest boiler out there, and most of the time the boiler is the smallest reason for the price difference. I don't consider them the best boiler on the market, but the best boiler can be the worst system if not done right and/or all the right components are not added.

Make sure you are comparing the whole system and not just making your decision on just the boiler. Ask what else comes with the system, and get references, or possibly ask to look as some work they have done. Most people you would want to do yours, have happy customers who would be glad to show off their system. Don't become another victim of those who don't.


Steve

Phil_6

payback

when you figure out whether its worth it or not, don't forget that the price of fuel will keep rising while the boiler is already paid for. Each year you will save more in actual greenbacks. That's why I love my MZ :-)

Mark Eatherton1

There is no typical price, because...

there is no "typical" installation.

If I were you, I'd be more concerned with the contractor than the appliance. You're going to have to live with the installing contractor for the rest of your stay at this residence. The equipment is only as good as the contractor standing behind it.

Don't let the price blind you. Look through the price. Ask for references from any potential contractor, then call the previous customers and ask LOTS of questions. Also ask if it'd be OK if you came over to take a gander at their completed work. See if the installation looks like its worth the money. Are the pipes straight? Are the joints clean? Are valves properly marked?

Do your homework first, then make a decision later. But DON'T let price get in the way wihout respecting the value of the services rendered. Personally, the price sounds low, but then again, you DON'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, now do you...

ME

Dan Foley

Chuckles

Where are you located? -DF

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DanHolohan

Sounds to me

like the distributor has made a big mistake here. Consumers like choices (and we're ALL consumers).

Fascinating thread. Thanks.

Cliff Brady

Northwestern.edu? probably in Chicagoland.

My burb has a contractor with Peerless Pinnacle and WM Ultra literature in their wall display you can see from the sidewalk. I don't know if they are Vision-1 certified, but it sounds like they are condensing boiler literate. They also have a reputation as premium priced.

Tony_8

I wouldn't call it small

increase in efficiency that is. LOTS of difference in low mass condensers and cast iron hunks as far as efficiency.

Steve Ebels

I'd be interested

In hearing what the boys from HTP feel about the Munchkin being sold online. Sounds like a service nightmare for the manufacturer to me.

R. Kalia

from the OP

R. Kalia

from the original poster

Re the person who asked where I am from, the other poster's guess is correct, suburb just N of Chicago, Evanston, IL. The regional distributor is American Hydronics, Monee, IL.

Re whether the saving is "small", we currently spend ~$1500-1700 per year. I expect to save maybe 25-30% if I'm lucky. That's a 5-6% per annum return on a $8000 investment, and unlike a stock investment or savings account, no part of the principal can ever be recovered, and if we move we lose the annual savings too. So it just does not compute.

I would still love to get a Munchkin because I like getting modern technology, and I like the idea of using less fossil fuel. But I don't see how you can sell this equipment, except to customers who don't care about money or can't do calculations like the above. The Munchkin guy tried to sell me on it by telling me meaningless anecdotes, like how a customer had told him she was saving $300 per month. When I asked what the original bill was that went down by $300, he became evasive.

I also have a comment about "Get the best installation, not the best price". Easy for an HVAC professional to say, of course! From years of dealing with home contractors for various things, I have found that judging by how smart or knowledgeable the person giving the quote is can be very unreliable. Usually I never see him once the quote has been accepted, and whether the guys doing the work are any good is a crapshoot. Also, of course, I can't tell by looking if the installation is good or bad, but I can easily tell what it has cost by looking at my checkbook.

So I still can't figure out why anyone would buy a condensing boiler. In our last house seven years ago, a top-of-the-line (for the time) 2-stage condensing forced-air furnace cost us $3000 with chimney liner and condensate pump and everything. That cut our bill only 20% but it was (barely) worth it. Now I have a basic Weil-Mclain quote for $3500 and maybe we'll go with it.

[Deleted User]

Fuel savings with condensing technology

is typically 30 to 50 % for a gravity conversion system. I realized a 30% reduction on my house, and I replaced what is considered a relatively high efficiency atmospheric appliance.

Replacing like for like appliances is not going to show any fuel savings unless some sort of control logic (outdoor reset) is applied at the same time.

ME

Joe_13

Other options

Have you looked into the WM Ultra or a cheaper solution: Dunkirk Quantum or NY Thermal Trinity. I would even take a Burnham Revolution (87%) before going with WM basic gas boilers. Get other quotes.

Steve Ebels

Boiler price

I had a phone call Saturday that went like this. "Hi, this is XXXX from Dr Clarks office,(the local farm animal vet) how much is a boiler"? I didn't even know where to start at first. I asked if she wanted just a boiler or if she wanted it installed and she said installed but she wanted to price just the boiler itself. I responded by telling her there are boilers that cost $2,000 all the way up to $10,000 for a typical residential size. She wanted to know how that could be, they all just make hot water. I started to explain the difference between some boilers and I could tell I was talking to empty space, she just wanted to know how much the boiler was. At that point I told her I would need to see their installation in order to give her a valid quotation and gave her the analogy of walking into a GM dealer and asking how much for a car. There are a lot of different models, brands etc. I also told her that the boiler was only one part of a system and although it makes up a large part of the material bill, it makes very little difference as to how well the system performs. This too, was a waste of air on my part and the coversation degenerated from that point into nothing that made any sense as far as selecting the right boiler for the job.

The point, to all the homeowners that are reading this thread is this. High or mid efficency, cast iron or stainless steel, domestic or imported, makes very little difference in how your system will operate and perform. That critical factor lies in the skill and knowledge possessed and employed by the person who is designing, installing and servicing your heating system. That makes selecting the right contractor the paramount concern whether you are building a new system or replacing something that is worn out. A difficult thing to do to say the least and I can't offer any better guidelines than are posted farther up this thread.

Case and point: I received a phone call from a service contractor on the east side of the state regarding parts for a system he was attempting to make run right. This home is 8,100 sq ft. built in 2001 and has some horrid problems with the heating system. The person who installed it was an excellent plumber, the pipe work is a thing of beauty, art really but he obviously knew nothing about infloor heating. One side of the house swelters at 78-84* and the other side will not get above 60* on a 0* day. This home is heated by a Viessmann boiler, arguably the best piece of heating equipment on the planet. This system cost over $50,000 when first installed. The best piece of equipment can not make up for a lack of knowledge and/or care by the installer/designer.

So!! Forget about the equipment price!!!!! It means next to nothing as far as how things will function. What you are buying is not a commodity. You are looking for a craftsman who is skilled at what he does. It is his work you are buying, his skill, his expertise, his knowledge, his work ethic, his parts inventory, his level of training, his morality and ethics. That is what you should be asking about, not "How much is a boiler"?

This is not "Just My Humble Opinion", this is the honest to goodness truth and really the only thing you concern youself with.

Dave DeFord

Steve I'm a HO

and I couldn't agree more with your comments. I'm a CPA that has had to contend with unskilled, incompetent and on occasion criminal tax preparers so I know exactly where you are coming from. The problem is how do I find such a craftsman. Let me tell you my tale of woe. I have recently purchased a 1921 farmhouse that still has most of the original steam heating system in place save for a couple of radiators and the boiler. What I found when I bought the place was a boiler installed without a hartford loop, a LWCO that MM tells me was for a hot water boiler and a boiler that hadn't been serviced in years. So I then went to the Find a Pro on this web site and the only person I found was 100 miles away - not someone I'm likely to get to come out to my house. I then called up the manufacturer of the boiler and got the name of their local distributor. The manufacturer also told me to find someone that understood steam NOT just hot water. Called him up and told him what I needed - his response was - "Just about anyone can handle steam". Not exactly what I wanted to hear after reading this site and talking to the manufacturer. So then I called the local downtown hardware store in my area that has been there since dirt was new. They told me "You want to talk to Joe at XWZ heating and cooling". I called Joe and made a passing reference to a hartford loop to see if he would pick up on what I was looking for - he didn't seem to know what I was talking about. So I have exhausted just about every trick that I know of to find competent help in my area. Which leads me back to the reason for this long-winded post. What you are telling folks to find is not the easiest thing in the world to do. Frankly I have given up on finding anyone in my area that knows what they are doing as the two prior service companies have proven their incompetence by installing a boiler with no hartford loop (1st company) and then the second by installing an improper LWCO, the old-line hardware store can't seem to find anyone competent and the guy on this site that is 100 miles away seems to be a hot-water guy (not that there is anything wrong with that it's just not what I need). So those of us on the other end are left with nothing to compare but price. Not that there is anything inherently correct about chosing the low or for that matter the high-priced bidder both can be either good or bad. So I guess the point of all of this is we (on the receiving end) tend to buy from the low bidder as we can't tell if the contractor is any good so we risk the least amount of money possible to cut our losses if the work is not up to par. It would be a real service if you, or some of the folks on this site, could put together a questionnaire for us homeowners so we could evaluate a contractor. I know you said to get references etc. - I've never yet seen a business of any type that would give me a reference to a customer that didn't have glowing things to say about them. It's really frustrating sometimes from this end as I'm sure it is from yours. What we need is to have some understanding of what the person on the other end is up against from both sides.

Steve Eayrs

Tony, By \"small\" I was talking about the price difference,

not the efficiency. I too agree that there is a big difference between some units. I wouldn't go so far as to say cast iron is non-efficient and condensate boiler are efficient. Hard to beat a Veissmann or Buderus cast iron, with good controls, etc.. for efficiency. Definitely the best out there on the oil fired side of things.

Steve

Chuckles

calculating savings

Many homeowners look the bottom line when calculating savings, but the dollar amount depends on (a) price of nat gas, and (b) how cold it is. Both these fluctuate.

I calculate savings using therms per degree-day, which eliminates these variable factors. When we got a condensing forced-air furnace in our last house, replacing a 30-year-old furnace, our therms per degree day went down 20%, no more. So when I hope for 25-30% this time, I am being optimistic.

PS We don't have a gravity system.

Steve Whitbeck

Chuckles
What you are forgeting is that the munchkin boiler is not only high efficient but that it also modulates down to provide just the amount of heat you need and it can also outdoor reset to lower the discharge temperature to only the amount that Your house needs to maintain a comfort level.
Because of this you will save more than the difference between the 70 to 80% of the old boiler and the 94%+ of the Munchkin.
There have been homeowners on here that have cut their heating bills in half.
I am not saying that You are going to see that level of savings but it will be more than the difference of efficiencies.

Dan Foley

Contractor

Try calling Mike Ackman at New Century Comfort Systems. I don't know if he installs Munchkins but I know he does good work. His # is 847-432-0320. Good Luck! -DF

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Floyd_5

Have to chuckle at this post....

You want to have the best of both world's!!!!!
You want the high eff. and tech. at the bargin basement price
of a C I boiler.
I ain't gonna happen... oil and water don't mix....
Gotta get off the fence and make a decision....

If it's me... I go with the most eff. I can get at a reasonable price, and the price you was quoted is reasonable for what your gettin'.

What ya gonna do if you get the bargin basement 80%er and then the price of the fuel goes double or triple of the "today" cost????? Try figgerin' that wit your sharp pencil!!! The old Arabs get a bug up their collective rears and all your speculatin' goes right out the window!!!

I say spend the money and CYA.......

Floyd

Mad Dog

If the company is legit................................

that sounds like a fair price for what is involved in the proper installation and set up of a Munchachee. We are not cheap, but you will not get a better job from anyone - and we guarantee it. Like many here At The Wall, we are perfectionists, craftsman, and we deserve every penny we get. Dave D, I know what you are saying about references, but you'd be surprised to learn that alot of contractors cannot even give you 2 really satisfied customers. I found this out during my own renovations. I would ask for 4 references, WHEN the job was done (important....the longer ago the better), andf ask to make a few field visits. I've had some skeptical people that actually di this, and say that indeed, we could back up our boast and justify our prices. Don't count this guy ouy yet. Mad Dog

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Chuckles

> You want to have the best of both

> world's!!!!! You want the high eff. and tech. at

> the bargin basement price of a C I boiler. I

> ain't gonna happen... oil and water don't

> mix.... Gotta get off the fence and make a

> decision....

>

> If it's me... I go with the most

> eff. I can get a a reasonable price, and the

> price you was quoted is reasonable for what your

> gettin'.

>

> What ya gonna do if you get the

> bargein basement 80%er and then the price of the

> fuel goes double or triple of the "today"

> cost????? Try figgerin' that wit your sharp

> pencil!!! The old Arabs get a bug up their

> collective rears and all your speculatin' goes

> right out the window!!!

>

> I say spend the money

> and CYA.......

>

> Floyd

jackchips_2

Chuckling at Chuckles,

that's good Floyd.

It seems he's right on the fence and just needs a little nudge one way or the other.

One large part of any payback is the time frame. If your going to be staying in your home for a long time, go for the upgrade if you can become comfortable with the installer.

Good luck.

GEO_3

Back to your quote, There was someone at this site a while back that paid twice that for a Munchkin. The point being I've seen plenty of contractors say they can do it cheaper or you paid too much. It's usually after it's all done and they don't have to prove it. Rates change dramaticly area to area sometimes town to town. If you have confidence in your contractor and he can explain his quote. Go for it. I've seen substantial savings with the Munchkin and Gas isn't getting any cheeper!

Wayco Wayne_2

Have you asked

the contractor where the extra cost is coming from? I know I can replace a cast iron boiler in a day but a munchkin takes 3 to do correctly. Is he providing any zoning? primary secondary or differential bypass? Outdoor re-set? Is there an indirect water heater? To install a Munchkin correctly takes some care and knowledge. Ask specific questions. Not all contractors are good talkers. Some are artists who create living sculpture with pipe and torch. With hot water and electrical current the life blood of the creation.

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Tony_8

i was

replying to "Chuckles'" post. Oil is a different animal and irrelevant in this conversation. I am a low-mass fan for residential gas fired equipment. Modulating is better and condensing is even better. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I don't think so. I have had consistent, successful results converting to low mass boilers from CI. On a design day they may equal out, but the other 95% of the season I'll bank on the "lightweight".

As always, just my opinion, based on my personal experiences. "Individual results may vary"

Ken C.

You think $2,000 is reasonable for a new boiler, installed? Around my parts, any legit plumbing and heating company would laugh at that figure. For that price, you might get Handyman Joe to do it, and you better hope he doesn't screw it up. Then you'd have to pay even more for someone to correct the problem(s).

DIY Homeowner

Market Forces

The original poster might be happy to spend the $$$ on the munchie IF he knew he was getting a fair price. The problem is, he can only get one bid. How can he evaluate the bid if he can't make an apples to apples comparison with other bids?

To ask anyone to lay out 8K without any way of getting a double-check on the price, is asking too much of any consumer who values ther ability to operate in the "free" marketplace.

R. Kalia

> You think $2,000 is reasonable for a new boiler,

> installed? Around my parts, any legit plumbing

> and heating company would laugh at that figure.

> For that price, you might get Handyman Joe to do

> it, and you better hope he doesn't screw it up.

> Then you'd have to pay even more for someone to

> correct the problem(s).

DanHolohan

Bingo!

However, I'd change the word "price" to "value." Obviously, the trade and the manufacturer have yet to show this client the VALUE of going with this system.

Why not?

That's the lesson here if people in the trade and at the manufacturering end are paying attention.

Bill Clinton_4

Chuckles post

Dan has the right question. So far, Chuckles has the right answers. Higher efficiency does not necessarily equate to higher value. In the case of low mass condensing boilers,, my take is that they are seldom the better value. Take into consideration the higher initial cost, higher maintenance cost, lower reliability, shorter lifespan, scarcity of skilled installers and more important, of skilled maintenance mechanics, and I'm sorry it don't compute (except in a few special circumstances) even with 30% savings.

I'm with the guys who say "go for value, not price". Seems to me chuckles knows how to calculate value.

Bill

Elias

yeah lay offa chuckles!

People, it can be VERY frustrating as a consumer to find the straight dope on things. This guy seems like an intelligent fellow looking for advice, and he has definitely found quite a bit of good advice...but it does seem that a few of the responses just had to include some little barb, some little vindictive twist, some little crack that only seems to be there to make Chuckles feel kinda..dumb. That's what he went here to avoid. You all deserve gold medals for helping a LOT of people on this site, there is no doubt about that, but couldn't that axe be ground on all those really deserving folks out there, they aren't hard to find...This really is just "my humble opinion", sorry to wax a bit sappy...

DanHolohan

Exactly.

I mention from time to time that there is an enormous homeowner population on the Wall. Most read, but few post. I see it in the statistics. We're at 4,000 user sessions per day now. That's up from about 2,500 this time last year.

Chuckles is asking someone to "show him the money," the value of the high-end system. As more and more people come to this site (and they will), that question will be asked more often.

There's opportunity in that question, if only you hear what he's asking.

Show him, and other homeowners, the value. And if you can't do that, please give some thought to why not.

Dave Yates (PAH)

savings vs ROI

When my customers or potential customers inquire about getting the best efficiency appliance for their home or business, I give them a menu driven quote. Kind of like a build your own meal deal. Although my job includes educating them regarding the choices, the final decision is theirs to make.

I also don't dwell on savings because that doesn't sell much product. I concentrate instead on the return they'll see on their investment, which is the difference between the product costs, not the total cost. You want to upsell? Speak ROI and the work sells itself. Just about everyone on the planet understands ROI. ROI = value.

In order to provide ROI, you need to perform a projected annual cost based upon local fuel rates and hours of operation. Takes more work on my part, but that shows in the reports given to the HO. I'll bet you that if Chuckles were in my area, he'd see the value in writing. If he couldn't wrap his arms around it, I'd be happy to take as much time as he and Mrs. Chuckles needed to explain and educate. In the end, they would be able to make an informed decision based upon their perception of my skills, the product and whatever benefits that combination would grant them. It all boils down to trust.

Either way - I sell more jobs and they know we know our business and that we're looking out for their best interest.

I am surprised no one picked up on the internet sales of Munchkins. What's up with that?

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Eric Peterson_2

> I have a quote for a new cast-iron boiler at

> under $4000; that's not like installing a water

> heater either, or is it?

>

> I do realize that

> the Munchkin needs some additional plumbing and

> PVC; I also realize the unit itself is

> significantly more expensive. I can buy the

> boiler by mail order from

> http://www.spnwonline.com/default.asp for $3000.

> (I am NOT going to do this! But no doubt an HVAC

> contractor pays less than that.)

>

> So it seems

> to me that a total cost of ~$2000 more than

> installing a cast iron boiler might be

> reasonable, but _$4000 is not...am I clueless

> here?