CO training and Manufacturers

Unknown

that and have the scars to show for it.

I constantly hear from different levels of the trades, inspectors, code officials," Why do I need to know that?" That is the gas utility or fire dept's problem not mine. Or the best one I hear is if I do not touch it then I am not liable. One company owner, "I do not want my guys testing anything because then they wil get tied up and we have work to do".

Mark Hunt

Phase 2


I know many manufacturers monitor this site, so I am going to start here.

Would all of you agree that your equipment needs to be installed correctly in order to run efficiently and safely?

Would all of you agree that proper combustion and draft are vital for your product to perform efficiently and safely?

Would you all agree that there are circumstances that occur beyond your control that may cause your product to operate inefficiently and unsafely?

Would you all agree that your products need to be field tested in the environment that the entirety of their productive lives will be?

The law of averages dictates that sooner or later one of your products will be involved with a CO case. It won't be your fault, but it WILL be your product.

I would like to see some manufacturers get on board with CO awareness.

Who wants to set the example the rest of the industry should follow?

"Not just keeping your family warm, keeping your family safe".

Mark H

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Unknown

chuck shaw

Noel

I just looked at Marks post, and your response. I reread them both several times. I dont think Mark ever suggested altering equipment in his post. He was just asking manufactuers to make installers more aware of the CO issue and how the equipment may cause problems IF not set up properly for the enviorment that it is being used in and tested at least once a year (once in a while would be a huge improvement). If I missed something or misunderstood something, I offer my apoligies up front. I think, from what I have read in this thread, that Mark is promoting an awareness campain, not a campain to alter equipment. If I am wrong, then please correct me.

Chuck

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John R. Hall

Above and beyond

I support Mark H. and his efforts to educate. I am also wondering if there are some other "above and beyond" ways to educate. I am talking about starting at the grass roots levels. If you tell the average homeowner about the theories of combustion and PPMs, they would probably tune you out, waiting to identify with something they are familiar with. If you tell them real-life stories about people in the community who suffer permanent brain damage or death from CO poisoning, they might be more attentive.

Sure, I speak in simplistic terms but that's because I don't have the technical expertise to discuss the theories that I mentioned. If it takes tugging on the heartstrings, then so be it. If you can find a friend or family member who has lost a loved one to CO poisoning, seek them out. Ask them if they could tell their story (through you or in person) and seek out an audience in your community. Contact your local chamber of commerce and ask to be put on its meeting docket, and then contact your local school and find out when the next PTA meeting is. Better yet, find out if and when the school has a general assembly and address the children. All of you parents know how influential kids can be when they believe in a cause. ("Mommy, Daddy, I am not going to sleep until you buy a CO detector!")

I like to speak on the subject because I lost two friends to CO poisoning when we were college students. It has stayed with me.

And think of the other byproduct of your community education -- it's good business, too.

DanHolohan

I think

we should have a roundtable for this at Wetstock IV. Would that be okay with you guys?

John R. Hall

I think

You are a wise man, Dan

Unknown

Joh Hall great ideas, problem is

getting all of the groups to buy into what we are selling. It has been a problem for over 40 years to get a foot in those doors when it comes to safety as it pertains to CO.

I found that even when I had the utility pushing for these kinds of presentations they were few and far between. Many organizations feared creating an panic among those listening. It does work however: Example when a CO incident was in the news the following day the phones at the gas company would ring off the wall. Everyone wanted someone to come out and test their equipment or they smelled gas or some other means to get attention. It does not last very long however. The news media wanted an interview about CO safety but then would only air 20 seconds of a half hour presentation and many times took statements out of context.

I do not want it to sound like I am a defeatest when it comes to what we are trying to do. What I want you to all realize is that this is going to take pounding the pavement and putting some big hours into such a project. Are you committed enough to quit your job and go full time dedicated to educating people about this subject? In my estimation that is what it will take. Jim Davis and I have experienced the battle for a long time now. We are steadfast in our endeavors and dedicated. It is refreshing to see new converts to the fight. That is great but be ready to put some real study into this thing.

The last thing I want to mention here is that I am very careful as I feel everyone should be about what we do after we find Carbon Monoxide. The arbitrary altering of equipment with out knowledge and experience is foolish to say the least. It is also a great liability. I have tried over the years to find a common ground with manufacturers concerning adjustments and alterations to equipment to insure safe and efficient operation. It has at times been frustrating and at others rewarding. No one here is advocating mass alteration of equipment in the field. What we are hopefully working toward is that those of us who have been out here trying to keep this stuff running will have the manufactuers ear. We are all in this together, that becomes very clear when we all go to court, or God forbid gather at the scene of an incident.

We need to lay down egos and personal agendas and be careful about criticism that hs no grounds. Get all of the facts and move carefully. Take advantage of everyones experiences and knowledge. Maybe we can get some equipment and testing criteria that will stop CO deaths completely.
I have been dreaming of the day when a good safety device will be invented that will shut equipment off when any kind of problem shows up.

It has been my observation here on the Wall that some very knowlegeable people post here and I have learned much since coming here. I have also observed some real lack on knowledge of combustion and equipment adjustment. Without proper training you are really what I label "A Loose Cannon" waiting to launch your projectile wherever it may land. If you are not trained and qualified do not touch equipment, it is that simple.

Mark Hunt

All good points Timmie

And that is exactly what I am trying to get across.

We need to be certified to work on refrigeration units, but combustion appliances are anybody's game.

The way I see it, the industry has a choice.

Make voluntary changes from within, or be compelled to do so by an outside force. (Phase 3)


Mark H

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Unknown

Mark do you mean the story

about the 300 pound guy???

Mark Eatherton1

We're in the same boat together...

Us and the appliance manufacturers. I agree with what Tim is saying regarding mass alteration of a manufacturers appliance. If you find something wrong in the field, and everything is set up idealy per the manufacturers requirements, then the manufacturer needs to be made aware of those conditions. The oness is now placed upon them to make their equipment work correctly, or take their equipment out. If it requires a modification above and beyond their normal installation requiremnts (a barometric damper or neutral point adjustment) then that is what it takes. The cost of doing that HAS to be less than the litigation costs associated with a family being poisoned due to the appliance not working as it did under laboratory conditions.

It's time for the manufacturers and the contractors to work together to get these situations resolved, and soon. No pointing the finger of blame. Instead, point a finger at the problem and get it resolved, even if it requires field modifications.

While I'm not prepared to quit my day job to promote this cause, I would be willing to give up a lot of my personal time to educate others, and am planning to do just that. Lead, follow or get out of the way.

I do intend, however, to make this issue a profit center for my company.

That's why I can't afford to give up my day job...

ME

Mark Eatherton1

I think he means the story...

about the judge's daughter.

ME

Unknown

Mark

On behalf of an equipment manufacturer, I commend you on your mission for CO awareness. We certainly would desire that our equipment be installed correctly with proper gas pressures, volumes, draft and combustion air criteria. This is much of what Ron Beck and I stress at every seminar we conduct. We would, however, desire that the incorrect variables be corrected instead of changing the air/fuel variables of the atmospheric or induced draft gas-fired equipment we produce. In reality, you and many of the folks that monitor this site are somewhat of a minority when it comes to being equipped and knowing how to use staple test instruments required to properly check the setup of equipment. Ron and I conduct seminars all over this country and Canada and know, very well, the difficulties that can and do arise in the field and try to address how to correct them before they happen, instead of altering factory spec's to do so.

There really is no need to address this issue to the manufacturers in the manner you are at this point. We are most certainly aware of CO issues and certify, test and set up our equipment to better than minimum standards. There really is no need for "the preacher to preach to the choir". There is a need for a much greater involvement for manufacturers, distributors and the such to conduct more and more informative meetings and seminars as to "proper" methods of installation and in particular combustion air issues and having just read your post farther down "The Wall" I see you are already doing so. There is also a need for more local and state agencies to enforce the minimum installation standards that are spelled out for every piece of equipment. I believe that this is where your efforts would be better concentrated. Just my opinion and absolutely no disrespect intended.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

Unknown

I somehow missed

Noel's post that apparently has been removed. I also responded to Mark's post. In the past, insinuations have been made on this site and others that manufacturers may or may not neccessarily care about CO issues in the field related to installation of their equipment. I need to state that this is certainly not the case. We do stress that all installers pay attention to the standards that we spell out in all of our installation manuals. This can most certainly eliminate the need for CO concerns in the field. There are outside variables that can override these variables. Take for example, the father and son found sitting at their kitchen table dead from CO emmisions from a warm air furnace that had been cleaned and serviced a week prior. Who would have known that a diligent spider would have completely blocked the combustion air grilles with its newly spun web. Nothing would have stopped this from happening other than a CO detector.

Many statements have been made in the past about altering the factory set air/fuel setup of gas appliances to help combat high CO levels. I would presume that this is what Noel was referring to. We too, disagree with some of NCI or Mr Davis's statements along these lines and would always prefer that proper measures be taken instead to first correct the source of the problem such as low gas pressure, volume, draft or combustion air. Hope this helps.

Glenn

DanHolohan

Noel

removed his own post.

Mark Hunt

None taken Glenn


All I am asking is for manufacturers to help with making the contractors that buy equipment aware of the potential problems that can occur after the unit is up and running.

You folks can't control what happens out in the field, but maybe we can influence it a bit.

Mark H

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Unknown

It's a long uphill battle Mark.

We do this all the time, but there are still folks out there that have not even opened the package that contains the installation manual, whether it is ours or any other manufacturers. As my partner Ron states from time to time, we are all comfortable with the way we have done things in the past and unfortunately may not be aware of new standards that may apply to today's equipment. We reprint our I&O manuals at least twice a year and with every printing comes a another new warning or notice. Old habits are real tough to break. I admire your efforts though and we will keep trying to make the installers aware of the important installation issues. I really do believe that your efforts would have more impact at the code enforcement level though. I have spoken to several Code Inspector groups and even they were taken by surprise when it comes to how large an issue combustion air can be. Hope this helps.

Glenn

Unknown

I thought so Dan

Thanks for the clarification though.

Glenn

Grumpy

Maybe I am to simplistic about this issue, but how hard would it be for the manufacturers to simply refuse to initiate warranty coverage until a completed CO analysis has been performed, and signed off by both the installer and the homeowner, and submitted to the manufacturer? Certainly seems that it would "cover your butt" in the event a future failure resulted in injury or worse. And while I'm putting my $.02 in here, why not work for mandatory CO testing certification, of EVERYONE who installs, repairs or services the equipment? In Ohio, the Fire Marshall is next in line to the Lord himself when it comes to absolute power and control. Why not lobby the state fire marshall to mandate annual re-certification of all combustion appliances? Saves lives, and not so incidentally, generates a hell of a lot of untapped profit potential for the contractors who are willing to get on the bandwagon.

Unknown

The effort

really has to happen at the Code enforcement level. In my state, RI, much has been done to bring the inspectors and code enforcement people together to interpret and enforce the code in the same manner. Since RI is in essense a City/State due to its size, this is a more simple task. But if a permit is not pulled, there will be no inspection. In larger states, this may be a very difficult task. It is really not up to us to make a CO test a requirement. We could probably put a Warning in the manual but that is no guarantee thst it will even be read. The enforcement has to be at the local level. Hope this helps.

Glenn

Mark Eatherton1

Glenn, Re: Jim Davis and NCI...

Have you actually personally taken his class, or are you citing hearsay?

If you've not taken his class, I would strongly recommend that you do so. Contrary to popular belief, he doesn't promote random adjustments to eliminate CO. There is a method to his madness.

ME

John R. Hall

Glenn, et al

What can of presentation can be put together for mechanical inspectors? I have attended their meetings before in Michigan and maybe I can offer to make a presentation this year. Anyone have any suggestions?

Unknown

The truth is that very little

testing is done at all in Rhode Island. Most plumbing contractors do not even have test equipment. The local gas company does not test unless requested to do so. The seminars I have are very rarely attended by RI contractors as they install only and do very little service. I would venture to say that very few if any of them test equipment at time of installation.

The HVAC people are a litle better at testing because they have been burned with warm air systems letting CO into the customers living spaces.

I may be mistaken but I do not know of any code in RI that specificly requires CO testing be done on every fuel burning piece of equipment.

I had a situation recently that was making CO on a boiler 2000 PPM + both the plumber and gas company left it running. The gas company hung a tag on it but because it was cold they left it on.

I would hate to tell you how many times in RI I have run into that.

There are people running around RI with a liscense that do not know anything at all about gas safety or combustion safety. How many of them enter buildings with an odor of gas and do not even have a test instrument to tell them if it is safe. Hey you can smell the gas CO is odorless.

Mark Hunt

reading instructions


I bet that the graffiti in port-o-potties gets read more than installation instructions.

I like Grumpy's idea though.

No test, no warranty.

Mark H

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Unknown

John Hall, mech inspectors

need the code to give them the backing to enforce what we are talking about. It would be pretty simple to have a print out of combustion test done at time of installation, a copy for inspector, homeowner and contractor. Then have a tag which is left with the equipment for future reference to compare with future testing. We did this on conversion burners for years, it is no longer done locally as the utility stopped all that kind of thing when management changed.

Every contractor should be required to fill out a test sheet on all furnace and boiler installations. Some manufacturers have a check off sheet in their installtion manual.

We still have the problem left after that of yearly maintenance. A good rule who ever installs it owns it for life. They will be required to test and tune yearly at a charge of course. No test then the equipment is not considered safe. Equipment operating outside of standards would require repair or replacement. Give the contractor the power to shut equipment off and red tag without getting local inspectors or utility involved. Just have a notification process that lets them know it is shut off.

Make a law that no one who is not liscensed can pull permits. Set up liscensing for anyone who is involved with any fossil fuel burning equipment. Set up training and certification for combustion testing and have retesting and certification mandated every so many years.

Let Jim Davis or myself talk to inspectors it will open up a new world to them.

Unknown

Mark

I intend to take in one of his classes as soon it fits my schedule. All I know of Jim is what I have seen here in several very contraversial threads related to adjusting and/or modifying the manufacturers set up criteria. It is rather disconcerting to know that many of the techs installing equipment do not concern themselves with many of the issues that are important for a correct installation. I too can realize Jim's frustration regarding the possible consequences of this. In the meantime, Ron and I will continue to work with the trade to improve this just as Jim and others do. It is a long uphill struggle, but we enjoy it immensely.

Glenn

Unknown

John

We would be more than glad to attend and speak to these folks. I have spoken to them in the past on many occasions and they have always been very receptive. That's no promise that they will enforce these issues though. Another effective outlet for CO issues is through the network of Home Inspectors. There are many very good Home Inspection Companies that do a good job of bringing these issues to light before a homeowner closes.

Glenn

Unknown

Tim...you are right

in saying that the majority of installers in RI do not do any testing whatsoever. You are also correct in saying that most are not equipped to do so either. There are no codes in place to enforce this either. Perhaps it is time to go right to the people that can do so in RI. Whether they do anything about it is once again another issue.

What scares me is where we will be in a few very short years when the majority of appliances will be equipped with modulating gas valves and the such that have to be set up with instruments. We have all seen the postd here and on other sites as to error messages on diagnostic boards related to improper set up or the lack of. Times and equipment are changing very quickly and education related to these issues is a must. In the meantime, all we can do is keep plugging away Tim!

Glenn

RELY

Test and setup

Since this run on CO I for one have become more aware of the possiblities that it can and will happen to well installied systems.We as the contractor have a professial and moral duty to be aware of the problems and when we are in the presents of the consumers equipment to do a service for them and ourselves to check and test their equipment.I for one do like to sleep at night and would like to carry on doing so, but if I was the last man at someone's house and learned later that I could have and should have saved a life !!!! God help me We are professials and have a duty

Unknown

Still plugging after all these

years.

Mark Eatherton1

Glenn...

I am glad to see that you are at least interested in learning. I so strongly recommend this class that I think it would be worthwhile to "modify" your busy schedule to meet his. Otherwise, you may never hook up. Take the time. You WON'T regret it, I guarantee it.

ME

Mark Hunt

You said


a mouthful.

WE are supposed to be the experts.

If the fire department or EMT's have to be involved, WE did not do our duty.

EXCELLENT post sir.

Thank you!

Mark H

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jim sokolovic

Very eloquently stated, Glenn...

as always, by you.

Mad Dog

Jim Davis will blow your mind...................................

Before I took his class, there really wasn' ANYONE! on The National scene addressing the issue. Whether you agree with Jim or not, his class will open any seasoned vet's eyes. Mad Dog

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Unknown

Thanks Matt

I guess this means that your computer is fixed! Glad to see that!

I'm trying to rearrange my schedule to possibly take in the LI session.

Glenn

jp_2

only solution?

It seems to me that theres only one solution, constant monitoring. you can service, test and adjust a system only to have something fail 2 days later, something you could not have forseen. your truck has an o2 sensor, why can't your water heater have a CO sensor ?
the problem originates at the burner(at least close proximity), nowhere else, right?
when I designed machine controls, if i saw a potential problem with machine/operator I'd fix it with hardware or software, I did not like the idea that someone could get hurt on a machine "I" programmed. it would take a manufacturer to produce a retrofit of course. but, I don't see it as a far stretch from the hardware store CO detector to one with a remote sensor and control value with it?
am I wrong here?

Steve Ebels

Another angle

Regarding what agency or group could drive some changes in the industry, I think the people with the most to gain $$$$wise would be the ones to bark at first. These would be the insurance companies that write the big checks when something happens. Having code officials monitor the situation is a joke. I have to say over half the equipment in my area gets installed without a permit or many times by an unlicensed person doing the install. How many HO's run down to the Lowe's and pick up a water heater that they and their buddy are going to install on a Saturday. Do these get permits pulled? Do these get tested?

The idea of no test no warranty could also be extended to the insurance end of things. No test, no coverage.

Is there anyone from the insurance companies listening to this?

Murph'_4

we got some statistics...

we know the problems, we know what to look for, we know the cures (or at least where to find out) but there has not been alot of feedback by manufactors (except Mr. Glenn Stanton of burnham who is open minded cause he is a good guy and cares about people) where the hell is everyone else ??! this small collection of prime contractors and educators are willing to share the message, how many more incedents will it take for people to stand up and take notice. local enforcement is nill in my area, maybe this needs turned up a notch, whats it called "phase three"?!!



Murph' (I like the no warranty idea)

Mark Hunt

Water heater manufactirers

were compelled to redesign their equipment to prevent explosions. Can anyone tell me how many people were killed because of this?


Mark H

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jackchips_2

Water heater

manufacturers were compelled to change their water heaters because people thought it was ok to leave their gasoline next to the heaters.

Americans protecting themselves from themselves.

John R. Hall

How about this?

What if I download all of these comments and put them onto a flyer and pass it out to some manufacturers at the upcoming AHR Expo/ASHRAE Meeting? If you folks feel there is a need to get manufacturers involved, this could be the best place to spread the word, outside of the usual GAMA or NAOHSM meetings. Give me some names and I'll drop off a flyer.

Thoughts?