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Side Jobbed
Tim T
Member Posts: 6
Yeah sure, when you were working for a boss, you never did any weekend or evening work? EVER? Im not talking about stealing your bosses clients either. You guys point fingers at guys who may be grade "A" mechanics who maybe just do not have enough clients YET to open shops for themselves, and you call them hacks or whatever other name. THIS IS AMERICA, and a mechanic has a right to side job, moonlight or whatever other name you guys want to call it, so long as he doesnt steal his/her bosses clients.Maybe this guys boss only does commercial jobs and doesnt do residential, ever think of that? Do you expect us to feel sorry because some guy who doesnt work for your company came in to do work for less, maybe only because he doesnt have your overhead? boo hoo for you. Because a guy may be starting out and doesnt have your overhead doesnt make him/her a hack. TIM T
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Comments
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I lost a radiant floor
to a side jobber last week. Apparently the guy works full time for a company in the DC area and knows how to install radiant floors, or so says the Homeowner. This is a scary development to me. A radiant floor is not anything to fool around with. I'm betting side job guy has no insurance or license, and won't be pulling a permit. I'm thinking a lower price should not be worth the risk the Homeowner is taking. Also the business is being taken away from his full time company, (not to mention, mine). Where's the loyalty? We are trying to develope standards here. If this job goes awry it's a black eye that 30 people will hear about. If it works well only 5. I can hear it now. "Oh thoe radiant floors are a pain to install and they don't work that well. Egads!
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I wonder.......
if his daytime company knows he is doing this? Hmmmm...........Maybe SOMEONE should let them know?
hb
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As well as...
letting the heating inspector know...0 -
How did you start off?
How did you build your clientele? Was it daddys business or was it built from scratch?0 -
built from scratch
I quit a job on a Tuesday morning, I made the choice that afternoon to work for myself. I never did any "moon lighting". I hustled, I left cards on bulitin boards, I took a small add in a local paper, and when ever I saw a house for sale, I called the real estate agents to see if they needed anything done prior to the sale. I never took work away from an employer, or a working company by moonlighting. I had a liability policy, was registed with the town, and the board of health BEFORE I had cards printed, or accecpted a job.
Chuck Shaw
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all the way from scratch
You don't bite the hand that feeds you. Taking the boss's customers while you are fed by him is treasonous and is a form of thievery. He built the customer base through hard work and ethics to have it stolen by the opposite behavior from a trusted employee ? I don't think so !
We all get "side-jobbed". It shouldn't be from our own employees or our competitor's.0 -
Good reply Chuck
I'm surprised there are those that might disagree.
Bill0 -
I get by with a little help from my friends.
While my father was a big supporter of me and the business, he had nothing to do with its beginnings. I hope he is looking down and smiling, proud of his son.
I started Climatec with just a vision. I worked for my employer for many years and not once moonlighted. There was a very strict policy against that. Do it, get caught and youre gone. No second chance with the trust broken. Now that I am an owner, I am the same way. Jason is a valued employee to me. I would not be able to do any of this work without him. But if he does do side stuff and takes work away from me hes gone. The trust is broken. He can come to me if something comes up (which already has), we will discuss the situation and make a decision on a case by case basis.
Having a standard of ethics and a non-compromising work habit does make things difficult at times. I have been near bankruptcy twice since starting my business. Things always seem to turn around and wind up better than they ever were. I think its a test of will from some higher power. If you get knocked down, you stand up, dust yourself off and jump back into the fray. I believe you have to be very disciplined (thanks, Mom and Dad!), tenacious and never, never lose sight of your goal. Very few people have the ability to do this. Every one of us who owns a business has been knocked down. Some more than others, no doubt. The old saying What doesnt kill you, makes you stronger must have been coined by a small business owner.
The most important thing that anyone can have is friendship. Without the friends I have been fortunate enough to make over the years, I probably - no, undoubtedly, would not have weathered the financial storms I have been through.
So this is why, on some matters, I have tunnel vision. Certain things like moonlighting, sub-standard work and unprofessionalism are issues that are black and white to me.
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Date: December 01, 2003 09:03 PM
Author: Tim T (hf@aol.com)
Subject: side-jobbed
Yeah sure, when you were working for a boss, you never did any weekend or evening work? EVER? Im not talking about stealing your bosses clients either. You guys point fingers at guys who may be grade "A" mechanics who maybe just do not have enough clients YET to open shops for themselves, and you call them hacks or whatever other name. THIS IS AMERICA, and a mechanic has a right to side job, moonlight or whatever other name you guys want to call it, so long as he doesnt steal his/her bosses clients.Maybe this guys boss only does commercial jobs and doesnt do residential, ever think of that? Do you expect us to feel sorry because some guy who doesnt work for your company came in to do work for less, maybe only because he doesnt have your overhead? boo hoo for you. Because a guy may be starting out and doesnt have your overhead doesnt make him/her a hack. TIM T
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no I never did
I never took ANY job when I was working for other people. I will qualify that by saying I did work at my parents house, and did ask the company I was working for if they minded. I never said or implied that he was a hack, I just answered your question.
Chuck Shaw
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Why
Why so testy about this subject Tim? Seems to be a tender spot.
I just got back from a service call about 10 minutes ago. The problem was a sooted up boiler. I had never been in this persons house and as far as I knew he was having someone else do his work. That suited me fine because the HO has always been a tightwad. Not frugal, I mean tight like red on a radish. Turns out that the sooted boiler was installed by a former employee about 3 years ago. It had never been properly set-up and the whole install was an abortion from the ground up. That employee quit because we had a discussion one day regarding moonlighting and he didn't like what was said. I knew from observing his work that he wasn't ready to do anything himself despite having been an apprentice at various places for about 10 years. I wish I would have had my camera along. Let's just say the tight-fisted old miser got what he paid for.
Those are the kind of moonlighters that fall into the category called HACK. There are others who do perfectly good, acceptable work.
Whether the moolighting is done in the first place is a matter that needs to be discussed when someone is hired. It is simply a matter of company policy that both sides need to agree to right at the start.0 -
Tim T., This is not just about taking work from your boss, or anyone elses, but a lot more about under-cutting the real cost of doing bussiness. If you don't have the overhead, (insurance, mech. lisc.'s, trucks, shops, you name it) then you are misrepresenting the real cost of doing a job. I really doubt that when you are side jobbing, you ever mention the value of all the above things, and why you should have them. Most likely you readily agree with the customer that he can't afford the real company. I'm getting tired of having to explain to customers why I may cost more, and even make less. Some believe me, some don't.
The end result is, the customer is incorrectly assuming that the valid company is the rip off and you are the honest worker.
The truth is that in most places it is against the law to do construction work without the proper insurance and lisc.'s. It is also true that even at your reduceed hourly rate for the customer, your profit margin is still a lot higher than the honest company could ever hope to make. Whos the real ripp-off? They pay slightly less for the job, you pocket more profit, and they are not covered for anything if you get hurt on the job, you hurt them, or burn their place down.
You may say this is your freedom in America. I say it is not your freedom if its against the law. In fact you are trampling on others freedoms of a fair market place. Just because there is not enough enforcement out there, and you will not be caught, does not make it right.
If you feel you must do side jobs to make it, good for you, but don't try to justify it and make it something other than what it is. I don't believe anyone here on this site has the time to chase you around and try to play cop, but you need to admit you are not a honest business man.
Steve0 -
I used to side job
back when the baby's were little and I worked for a commercial HVAC co. I needed the extra income. But I always did residential and didn't do commercial work that would compete with my empolyer. I worried about insurance so I got some. I also got my master liceses. All before I decided to strike out on my own. One of my worries on this job go back to a job I did years ago when a radiant floor job went awry. In a run of misunderstandings the pex tubing got filled with water for the pressure test and left overnight. Of course a cold front moved in and dropped the temps way low and busted the tubing in multiple places only to be covered by the concrete guys before it could be discovered. Long story short, if I didn't have insurance I would have had to pay for the concrete to be removed and the tubing replaced and for the repour out of pocket or face the homeowners wrath. (Both husband and wife were lawyers) A side jobber in this situation might have no recourse but to disappear, leaving the HO to pick up the pieces and to rant about how terrible radiant floors are.
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Honest one?
Who are you to say I am not honest? I built my business from scratch while working for someone who knew that I was doing weekend and evening work. Never took one customer from him. When I felt the time was right I made my move, and I havent looked back since. I lose jobs to these so called hacks too, but I dont whine and cry here about it. By the way I always worked with a license and insurance when i was working night and weekends. So dont call me the dishonest one here, friend, because you do not know me.Tim0 -
So what your saying is
it was ok for you to side job when you had to make ends meet, but for someone else its not good? You say and I qoute "Also the business is being taken away from his full time company, (not to mention, mine)". Maybe this hack has a wife and kids too Wayne! Tim0 -
Wow!! This subject has been beaten to death.And heatboy
I feel somewhat as you do and it always a pleasure to read your post.
To get back to the subject,I dont care if these so call side jobbers,do what they do.In fact I look at it as a blessing sometimes.
For one the customer is looking for cheap heat and no matter
what I or we say is going to change anything.
So if he keep these people from callin me and wasteing my time..Thanks mr side jobber,for saving me from the grief
from loss time and money.
I dont blame the guy whos tryin to feed the family,I'll put the blame where it should be.The customer,the guy who try to
take the cheap way out and I may not have gotten that job,but If I set back long enough,I'll get the pleasure to charge this miser twice.Peace0 -
Do we have room for one more?
I recently almost lost a good-size radiant heat job because the client told me that radiant heat "doesn't work".
His friend has it in his big house up the street and had to have baseboard fitted in after the first winter they lived in the house because they were freezing.
Turns out some over-confident moonlighter installed it and hadn't any clue how to set it up properly.
This guy tells everyone within earshot what a FARCE radiant floor heating is.
I finally convinced him, with a little help from his wife, to let me install it and he could either pay me later or not. Depending on how happy he was.
Long story short: I got paid.
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Consulting & Troubleshooting
Heating in NYC or NJ.
Classes0 -
Higher pay?
Practically EVERYONE that I know in the field does at least SOME side-work, and they all say that it is for the extra money. If a guy is working 70 hours a week in the cold weather for his full-time job, and STILL doing side-work, maybe he needs to find a job that pays him enough?! I don't know where most of you are located, but in my area, most companies just don't pay enough to pay a mortgage. If we love what we do for a living, what should we do? I can flip burgers for $7/hr, or I can take a no-heat call for 10 times that.0 -
Thanks for your input guys
Don, your point is a good one, and in my heart I think the same thing. This Homeowner is looking for a bargain more than he's looking for a quallity job. Who knows? He may have struck a good one. I just don't like losing a radiant floor job period. (I know, I'll just take a deep breath and let it go.) Tim! I happen to know that the side jobber does have a family, babies just like when I was side jobbing. I also know he is working without a permit or a license which is dangerous for him and the Homeowner. I also know he is direct competition with the type of work his employer is doing. I think he knows what he's doing since the HO was asking me, "is primary secondary was really necessary?" (that's a good sign) However I care about the radiant industry and product. I teach hydronics at night and am serving on the board of the local RPA. High standards serve us all. I hope for the best and fear for the worst.
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Right on the money, Mike R.
Once the boss caught my co-worker coming in with his toolbag, and immediately knew my co-worker was moonlighting.
He got red-faced mad and bellowed: "Dammit Glen!!! WHERE the hell are you working on the side?"
I dunno if Glen had this thought out before hand, but he looked the boss right in the eye and calmly said: "Jack, maybe the question shouldn't be WHERE, but WHY the hell am I working on the side?"
But taking your employer's customers is a big NO-NO. He worked hard to develop his clientele.0 -
loyalty
It makes me laugh when I hear employers say there is no loyalty in the trade. When you say loyalty it sounds like you guys are married. When you hire an employee you compensate them for their time with money. That is as far as is goes, they don't owe you anything. Where do employers get off saying that an employee must be loyal to them. This observation is just not from this thread but something I see in the trades all the time. It's all about money whether the homeowner wants to save money or the "side jobber" wants to make it. If a mechanic has the opportunity to replace a thermocouple in his neighbors boiler at 8:00 PM should he run the call through his employer and make $10.00 or $15.00, or do it himself and make $50.00. If he run it through his employer and make $10.00 I wouldn't call him loyal I would call him stupid0 -
Maybe his boss doesn't pay him enough and thats why he is not loyal to them. I don't think there is anything wrong doing side work. I do a ton of side work. And I also have liability insurance anf I am a master plumber. But I would never steal my bosses customers0 -
Stealing customers...
I do a lot of side work, and my employer knows it. (In fact, some of my co-workers frequent this site) My side work consists of my own customers, as well as those of another service company. Although I could not survive without the side -work, I know where my priorities lie. I am honest with all concerned (employers and customers), and I would NEVER steal a customer from someone who is gracious enough to keep me working. That being said... 70 to 80 hour weeks are not my idea of fun. If I could make the same paycheck working 40 or 50, I would gladly do so.(And I am sure the wife and little ones would agree with me).0 -
Side Jobbing
Losers like that can be thrown in jail in AK. If they don't have the business license, insurance and appropriate cards, they should work for someone who does, until they can get their own.
Turn them in to the State Plumbing or Mechanical Inspector in your state, whichever is appropriate. Maybe it will send a signal to the other jack-of-all-trades master-of-none people out there.0 -
Catch-22
There are no winners in this debate, only losers. The two sides will never meet in the middle either, as long as there are employees of companies running illegal "side businesses" in direct competition with that of their employers. Some of you have said that there is no loyalty, either from or towards the employer; well your wrong. You who are doing side work have no idea how often your boss has paid everyone in the company EXCEPT himself. He has made sure YOUR check was there on payday, he has paid all the taxes to the government, he has invested in the buidings, trucks, tools, and material inventories, and paid all those bills in a timely manner so that HIS reputation and ethical standards would not be compromised. It is your boss who works far more hours than you would ever imagine to assure that you have work tomorrow and next week. He carries the workmen's compensation so that you will have coverage in the event of an unfortunate accident. He is the one paying the outrageously high liability insurance premiums to protect his company from ruin in case you happen to burn down a building or cause some calamity because of your possibly making a mistake at work. Drive by your employers office some Saturday or Sunday afternoon, see whose car is parked in the lot.
You choose to be deceitful and run a side business in direct competition with this man you work for, don't give me that baloney about "never taking a customer from the boss" stuff either. EVERY job you do is removing a potential customer from your employer. Are you reporting every dollar you earn on side work as income to the government? If not, you are also a thief and a tax cheat.
So you say you have liability and a license, well goody for you. Now quit being a parasite and open your own legitimate business, stand on your own reputation, build your own "empire" just like your boss did. Quit hiding behind that security blanket your boss has provided, get out there and put your butt and your family's financial future on the line. Then in four or five years, come back here and justify why having one or more of your employees out there doing "side work" is just peachy keen with you.
And one last thing, when you see a "help wanted" ad run by my company, don't bother to apply. I only hire people with integrity.
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exactly
Don, I couldn't have said it any better than that.
I once walked in on a guy repairing a WC for my customer when he was supposed to be installing an HAC system. When I asked him why he was doing a "freebie" w/o asking me 1st, he said "she's paying, she's giving me some leftover bldg matls in exchange". Funny, he'd already taken lunch. I already knew he was wasting time immensely. So much so, that his crew partner was doing 80% of a week's work. That was it for him.
I must be doing something right by my employees (excepting him) because they ALL have brought potential side jobs in to the company and don't moonlight on me. I have had many weeks that any one payroll check exceeded what I gave myself. My wife wonders why...0 -
Call me stupid.
I'm sure you took theat thermocouple form your own stocked truck, correct? Certainly not from the truck of your employer. You know the one. The guy who pays you. It's his truck he lets you drive back and forth to work in and is full of his gas, has his tags and insurance. But I'm sure even if you used all of his stuff, you would pay him for the thermocouple you borrowed.
I try to stay civil on this board, so I will refrain from telling you what you are. I believe it suffice to say, your future is very limited.
Hey, here's a good idea. Let's go to the bar for lunch!
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You guys are right on the money....
Well said....
My question is....how much is enough????? Some people are never satisfied no matter what you do for them. Just recently had a fellow leave because another sub on a job that he was on offered him 5 bucks an hour more. He didn't stop to consider that the extras that I provided for him were worth way more than the five bucks, all he could see was the "money". Then to rub salt in the wound I go back to the job and there is my ex. employee doing some "extra" work that I would have gotten paid extra for above the contract price of the work that I had oringinally.
Doesn't matter what you pay some people, the grass will always be greener on the other side of the fence!
I ALWAYS try to treat others as I would want to be treated, however the favor is rarely returned....
such is life.....0 -
Side jobs
The bull of needing the money is a joke. Our employees that work 2000 hrs a year make over 80K. And that is for trainees. All our employees are required to sign a employment contract. That contract prohbits side jobs or working in the trade for another company.
My personel beleif is that anyone cuaght doing side jobs should have thier lince revoked. The problem we have here is govermant employees (federal) use govetment materails on side jobs. The local city have taken a proactive stand. The build code is local only no state. The Goverment Agentcies involved deny thier employees are doing this.
Mike0 -
re:
1) He has made sure YOUR check was there on payday, he has paid all the taxes to the government, he has invested in the buidings, trucks, tools, and material inventories, and paid all those bills in a timely manner so that HIS reputation and ethical standards would not be compromised.
....Well gee, you just gave him 40-50 hrs of blood sweat and tears, isnt he the greatest for compensating you on time!!!!
2)You choose to be deceitful and run a side business in direct competition with this man you work for, don't give me that baloney about "never taking a customer from the boss" stuff either. EVERY job you do is removing a potential customer from your employer.
.......So if I have friends or relatives or advertise in pennysaver, local paper or whatever were taking a potential customer? get over yourself man, are you starving for work? do you not have enough work? If you dont you probably are doing something wrong.Here you are worrying about a guy who legitimitely does work after hours taking a FUTURE customer from you, haha
3)So you say you have liability and a license, well goody for you. Now quit being a parasite and open your own legitimate business, stand on your own reputation, build your own "empire" just like your boss did.
..........Us parasites will open our own business one day and you know what we will be bigger, better and more efficient then you because you will be standing around crying on the wall how you got side jobbed!!! Rum your business and stop crying don.0 -
Speaking of side jobs another view
Buddy of mine works for a fuel oil company.His boss bought out a smaller oil dealer,then another.He said he restructured the company and had to stop benefits for a while.That was EIGHT years ago.Think his guys do side work? He just bought a TWO MILLION dollar house in Conn.Don't bid against your boss,work as much as you can.
MIKE0 -
side work
Been doing plumbing since I was 18 (38 now)who cares what guys do on THIER OWN TIME, I've worked for one truck shops & 30 truck shops they even helped me do side work (they also said please dont rob me)letter heads , instruction, sign offs ,one big company encouraged it because they said 'the sky is not the limit when it comes to your salary supplement your income .I've had bosses throw me a side job either it was to small for them or it was a 'bone'.You gotta laugh about LOYALTY thats a two way street man!As far as hackers ,thats another two way street if the guys a good mechanic at work he's a good mech. on the side,seen plenty of work done by ligit ,insured ,lic. companys that sucked.I worked alot of construction projets for other companys when the carpenter or painter or whomever see's me every day for months or years comes & asks me can you fix a leak for me? or I need some work done(by the way I was running these jobs my boss showed up once in a while to check up ) should I say "no" or ask my boss if I can or if he wants it? HA,Ha..I'm lic. & ins & on my own now & I practice what I preach ,helpers come to me with questions & I help them with there projects ,it sharpens my skills to answer thier problems.0 -
taxes
I do pay taxes. I am registered with the city also so I don't know whats not legitimate about that. Just because I do it on the side? My boss couldn't even do the work that I am doing because he's so busy so I guess you are starving for work just like someone else said Don.0 -
Taxes
Since insurance, permits and normal overhead are overlooked by moonlighters I am sure that claiming the income on your tax returns is also overlooked. Tax evasion is a serious matter!!!0 -
I am with
you pull me up a seat too!!! Tough subject.
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Fight for what you want
There has been alot of truth spoken on both sides of this issue. There is a lack of ethics sometimes on both sides of the fence. Money is certainly of the big motivators for all of us, because without it we cannot buy the things we need or want. Some guys would still moonlight if they were paid $1000.00 an hour. Some companies want their people to hand over sales and leads but do not compensate them. Yet if the salesman does it he makes a nice commission, you can bet the guys see these kinds of indiscretions.
The good companies who take care of their people and pride in them should not worry about these issues. Let your employees know up front what is expected of them and what is and is not tolerated and enforce those rules.0 -
Some people...
don't get. Never will. They'll never go anywhere either. They will be stuck in the same rut for the rest of their lives.
This thread is like beating a dead horse. It's not really much fun, and it stinks!
ME0 -
I guess
you are the high holy one, being you can judge how far people will go. All hail to you.0 -
An employment aggrement
would be the best way to resolve the issue.
If the company allows side jobs, spell out the terms and limitations.
If not, spell out the terms and limitations.
Both the employer and employee sign the doc., and live by the aggrement terms.
We allowed the fellows to work for family, on side jobs and they never argued or went beyond that.
The liability policy, workers comp, FICA, and any other "fees" that are accessed to the company based on wages paid or gross income, get cloudy when guys work your tools and truck on jobs not contracted or recorded through the company. Seems to risky in these "sue me sue you" times
Which ever way you go, as an employee, it's only fair to let owner know your intentions. Doing it on the sly seems selfish and unethicial. To me anyways.
hot rod
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