A letter to the editor of FHB

Dave Yates (PAH)

reality is a .....

I won't live long enough to see our code bodies enact this common sense solution that addresses both scalding and bacterial issues. Politics at the code enacting level is fierce and intense. One code official I spoke with likened it to turning a battleship in heavy seas using only a trolling motor.

Min tank tem of 140 F (source). Distribution systems temp min of 133 F with constant circulation (distribution). All points of use with final step-down of temps via certified scald-guard devices (points of use).

You'll be seeing one such system in a mag or two in the near future. There's also a dual use potable/hydronic system in place. A 99% efficiency commercial water heater powers up the domestic and hydronic systems. Storage temp is 160 F.

There was a time when we thought A/C was a luxury only a few would be willing to spend thousands to have. Now it's standard issue. Customers will adapt and accept change if it becomes standard issue. Remember the reluctance to use scald-guard faucets in new construction where the low bid gets the work? In our area, most municipalities now require them.

The pieces of the puzzle are readily available. A multitude of scald-guard faucets exist and they're not that much more expensive than non scald-guard faucets.

CIPH came very close by mandating the tank be a min of 140 F. They then stated that either every faucet had to be scald -guard or you could add a tempering device at the tank's outlet. One giant leap forward only to fall down where the remainder of the system is concerned. $$$$$$ determines safety! If you're bidding against other contractors and decide to move the scald protection out to the points of use instead of the single device at the tank - you lose. Might as well have done away with the language and kept just the single device in the code - the rest is just window dressing & anyone who faces compettitive bidding knows that at a glance.

When they tackled the use of water heaters for hydronics, they ruled out everything EXCEPT open systems. I still can't believe that happened with what's become common knowledge regarding Legionella's breeding requirements. The 140 tank temp does not treat the system, which will constantly re-seed the tank and all other distrubition piping as the bacteria easily pass through without sufficient contact time for pasteurization.

The CDC estimates that upwards of 10,000 people die from community acquired Legionellosis each year. They also tag water heaters and potable hot water distribution systems as amplifiers. More than 30,000 people are scalded in the US every year. More than a few die excruciatingly painful deaths. Children who suffer 3rd degree burns must endure repeated skin grafts as they grow because the grafts do not. A childhood filled with misery and a lifetime of pain. That's also why I'd like to see the codes insist on combination pressure balance & thermostatic devices in bathing areas where children will be utilizing the plumbing.

I can't conjure up more compelling reasons to change our existing codes.

Given that numerous agencies, such as the CDC, have identified potable hot water systems as sources for community acquired legionellosis, why would anyone in their right mind add something that can't help but be an amplifier of the first order?

The additional cost is minimal when you consider the consequences.

The numbers of those who die from these two issues make SARS and West Nile look like two-bit players. But we've long grown accoustomed to the number of deaths attributed to pneumonia and complacent where scalding issues are concerned because the numbers remain about the same each year.

FVIR water heaters have been mandated due to the risk associated with flash-over fires and the deaths/injuries associated with them. (Much lower numbers of fatalities and injured BTW) We've already adjusted to the increase in cost. Now we're adding another $18.00 for the new insulation requirements in water heater construction.

I see dead people who should still be enjoying life.


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Dave Yates (PAH)

Here are several that appeared in a trade magazine.


http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=98

http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=17

http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=162

http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=168

http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=193


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Jeremy_2

Get a load of this from ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3168385406&category=41987

Duncan_9

True enough Mark

> If a trade magazine doesn't publish a

> statistic, are we then to assume that there are

> no problems?

>

> Tell me how many CO articles you

> have seen in "trade" magazines.

>

> I haven't

> seen ANY, yet CO poisoning accounts for over 90%

> of the accidental poisonings in the

> USA.

>

> Legionella is real, and ABSOLUTELY NO ONE

> in our industry tests for it, and MOST don't even

> know what the hell Legionella is. IT KILLS

> PEOPLE! You get that? DEAD!

>

> So there are no

> "documented" cases of this caused by an open

> heating system. Well Ladidah! They NEVER tested

> for it, so how can you know?????????

>

> This is a

> no brainer IMO. Dave has followed this issue, he

> has the science. Just because it doesn't make

> headlines doesn't mean it isn't true.

>

> Mark

> H

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Contractor"_/A_

Duncan_9

True enough Mark

If a tree falls in the forest and there's no-one around...?

First point: Non-reported cases. As I understand it, the CDC only addresses outbreaks of Legionella. Events where many people are affected... they are focused on epidemics, not isolated incidents that may occur in individual homes.

Second point: Misdiagnosed cases. Bacterial pneumonia kills a LOT of people in the U.S. every year. No-one knows how many of these cases may have been Legionella.

Third point: Healthy people aren't likely to get LD unless exposed to massive amounts of the bacteria. Our immune systems are generally able to handle it quite well. Grandma isn't so lucky, especially not if she smokes. Cancer suppressing drugs can also weaken the immune system. The Legionaires - old guys that smoked and happened to be near a cooling tower. Outbreaks in hospitals - weakened immune systems.

A healthy person CAN get it if the bacteria are present in numbers sufficient to overwhelm the immune system, as in cooling towers. I think Dave's description of open systems as a bacterial "amplifier" is an apt one.

Sure, the odds of getting killed by lightning are slim to none. But I don't go for walks on a golf course during a lightning storm wearing a tin foil hat and holding an umbrella either.

The chances of contracting it MAY be less than the chances of getting struck by lightning, but it appears we don't have sufficient or accurate data to either prove or disprove that. It's hard to inform someone of precisely what the chances are if you don't have data. You can tell them open systems increase the risk, though.

Bacterial pneumonia is no fun, Legionaire's Disease, Pneumonic Plague and Anthrax are some examples of it. I had bacterial pneumonia, an antibiotic-resistant type. Never found out how I got it. Though I'm generally robust and healthy, I spent a long six days in the hospital soaking the sheets in sweat, shivering with the chills and coughing up blood. Didn't eat for five days. So weak I could barely sit up. 15% to 20% of people my age don't walk out. 40% of elderly people don't make it.

I'll let someone else install open systems, that's my choice. If a customer doesn't want to spent a few hundred extra bucks for a boiler or heat exchanger, that's their choice.

I wonder what the hell's up with the regulating authorites? Dave, do you know what experts they consulted to help make their decision?

There's lots of money involved in installing safer systems. Evidently, thousands upon thousands of people must get blown up or caught on fire by water heaters igniting solvents or fuel, because it seems money's no object there - those new WHs are pricey, aren't they?

PJO_5

How about tankless?

Dave,

If you use a tankless HWH does the issue go away, or is it just better? I suppose you still have the distribution piping to worry about unless you have P.O.U. mixing valves...

Speaking of piping, I notice that my "cold" water lines on the first floor (powder room and kitchen) are very warm if they sit for a length of time because they run through the joist bays where my (underfloor) radiant is...has anybody considered Legionella for that situation...in other words, the cold side is pretty warm and if not used for days at a time...?

Has anyone looked into recirculating the cold water side of houses? I see re-circ used very extensively in the pure water industries for obvious reasons...especially with non-residual based disinfection (like UV), why not?

Maybe we should start a new business? :-)

Take Care, PJO

Dave Yates (PAH)

answer

Dag gone it. You mean to tell me I can't go out in thunder storms with a tin foil hat any longer?!?

To answer your one question, I think dead presidents are the answer.

Mike Gordon, of Bradford White fame, told me there are about 6,000 fires/injuries with 6 deaths attributable to non-FVIR water heaters per year. Seems folks just won't quit storing gasolene beside the tanks! The feds were going to step in with mandated changes, which is what caused the water heater manufacturers to join forces in researching the FVIR technology. They'd seen what happened with low flush 1.6 water closets and wanted to avoid a similar fate. Mike also told me that one surprise in testing spilled gas came to light where the old style was concerned. Remember the 18" rule for raising the ignition source above the floor? Mike told me that when testing old style tanks situated at floor level, a flash-over and fire resulted. When testing burners set 18" above the floor, a quite forceful explosion would occur due to vapors having an opportunity to build prior to reaching a source of ignition.


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Dave Yates (PAH)

well

During off cycles, the temp in the entire system drops below pasteurization needs of 133 F or higher. Legionella are happy between 55 & 133 with optimum range being 70 to 122 and ideal temp being 98.6, which is why a human lung is a perfect environment.

The one thing reduced is system volume and, in theory, the sediment layer typically found on a storage tank's bottom.

I keep my indirect at 155 F with a 10 degree delta-T. Constant circulation (gravity). Scald guard faucets in all bathing areas. Ours are PB, but I installed Delta Monitor P&T valves for my folks. Both the very young and elderly are more susceptable to scalding. Young'uns skin burns four times faster than does our middle-aged thick hides. As we age, we lose sensitivity to sudden temperature changes. Wouldn't be cool to have me mum and dad going around looking like one of Scott's lobstas!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

ScottMP

mmmm

Budda........

Oh sorry, Hey David, so you think that even raising the tank temperature would not help lower the chances of a infection ? I am thinking this owuld not be bad standard installtion for us.

Remember take the rubber bands off dads hand before the bath. It ruins the taste

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"